This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good evening. I want to talk to you tonight about the relationship between what we call ourselves... and what we call other. Other people, other things, and even sometimes other parts of ourself. I want to try to talk about this because I believe that in that relationship is where practice takes place and also where confusion takes place. and where reality takes place, or realization.

[01:04]

If we can participate in it, it could be called enlightenment. I've been working on a phrase from the Genjo Koan for several months now, I think I talked about it once, maybe during the practice period, or maybe it was the beginning of the summer, and I might be able to remember it. I might not. And right now, I can't, so I'll read it. Kaj Tanahashi's translation is, To carry yourself forward and experience myriad things is delusion. that myriad things come forth and experience themselves is enlightenment, or is awakening. So I've been, you know, not constantly by any means, but off and on, ruminating on these two sentences.

[02:10]

To carry yourself forward and experience many things, the myriad things, is delusion. That myriad things come forth and experience themselves is awakening. And it seems to me that the second part of that, that myriad things come forth and experience themselves, is happening all the time. You know, when I walk through Chasahara, myriad things come forth and experience themselves in me or change me because of their appearance, because of their interacting with me. So that part, I mean, we can resist that, and we often do. We have some idea of where we're going and what we're doing and who we are and how we respond, and then something happens, and something different than what we thought was me and my life.

[03:21]

happens and we can resist it but it doesn't stop it from happening it has some effect on it it might make it uh... you know a more uncomfortable experience but still we are impacted by the myriad things as they come forth constantly coming forth the first part of it uh... uh... to uh... the myriad things To carry oneself forward and experience myriad things is delusion. I haven't been able to figure out how that wouldn't happen in my life. Again, when I start out across Tassajara, usually from one office to the other, with something in mind to do, I think that I pretty much always have... some perhaps latent but definitely there idea of myself you know i'm carrying a self forward intending to go somewhere and do something it's it's usually uh connected to doing something although sometimes it might be connected to being something you know i was thinking on the way over here to the lecture is there a way that i could be walking to this lecture

[04:46]

not carrying a self at all and I have to say I haven't figured that out yet I I don't know how to get here I think I have learned over the years to perhaps carry that self more lightly or again not resist so much when it turns out different than I thought and I think that part of that comes from watching And seeing that it turning out different than I thought is, so far, it works. You know, it's not so bad to have it turn out different than I thought. And having seen that experience, having, you know, sometimes cared very much about what I thought was going to happen, and then have something else happen, and see that actually it's still life goes on. hopes to be able to, when something happens, you know, when somebody stops you and says, wait a minute, do you have a minute?

[05:57]

I'd like to talk to you about how tasahara should be completely different. Oh, yeah, okay, okay. Yeah, that might be just really great. This morning in Zazen, I... I think I got a little bit of a sense of a way to, or a few moments off and on during that period of zazen, of how it might be to just be waiting, kind of waiting for the next self to arise. You know, zazen in some ways is pretty simple, right? Like I wasn't going anywhere, I wasn't doing anything. I wasn't expecting very much. So thinking about this, I thought, okay, just be open. And it seemed during Zazen this morning sometimes to be possible to do, that I could kind of not have much of an idea about who I was or what the next breath was going to be like or...

[07:17]

what the day was going to be like, because I wasn't thinking about the day at that point. If I'd started thinking about it, I would think I would have had a lot of ideas about it. But at those moments, when I felt like I had this experience of a self, a new self arising, you know, every once in a while, every breath, something like that, So I think that that's one of the ways that zazen is actually very, very helpful. It can give us that experience of really how things are. That there's, even though I might walk around with an idea of myself, and there's a self there, it's not the idea. And it's not as stable as the idea. It can change, it does change. It changes with every interaction.

[08:20]

I once heard Kadigari Roshi actually say, don't practice anything but Zazen. Don't rely on anything but Zazen. Just do Zazen and live your life. I thought that was pretty radical. I was trying to figure out how do you practice? What should I be doing? During the day, what should I be doing with my life, which had various messy things going on in it. How do I make this decision? How do I... I forget what was going on right then, but I'm sure it was something dramatic. And how could I incorporate practice into my dealing with my life? And here comes Kategori Rishi and says, don't do that. Don't try. Don't look for anything. Just... sitzazen, and live your life.

[09:21]

And more and more, I think he might be right that something like this experience of self-arising, self-arising, self-arising, ongoing self-arising permeates our mind and body and allows us to walk around with a looser more flexible more responsive mind more able to meet the reality that is appearing Last week, a couple of Tassar people were driving out over the road expecting to get to Jamesburg.

[10:28]

They had their destination set out for them, and they headed out over the road. I go over the road a lot. I go back and forth to Jamesburg a lot. And when you all, those of you who are here as guests, go away, And the practice period starts and the people come here and stay for three months and stop going over the road. And there gets to be a lot less traffic out there. And it gets to be safer in some ways because you don't meet as many people on the road. But it also gets to be further away from either end. Especially when it gets to be winter and you're out on the road, it's like a long ways to either end when you're up there on the top. If the wind is blowing or it's snowing or whatever, and the feeling is like I am a long ways away from either end, the places where I feel at home.

[11:30]

And several times when I've been out driving on the road, I've been thinking, oh, when I get to Tassara, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then you turn a corner and there's something in your way. something that you can't get around. I mean, there have been numerous things. There have been trees down. There's been, you know, like a rock that was too big for me to move that was just enough in the middle of the road that you couldn't get around on either side. Once there was a, this time I wasn't alone. I was with Galen and Tia. We were coming into Sesheen, and they had come to Jamesburg that morning, so we were getting in a little bit later than early in the morning, and we came around a corner, and there was like a 30-foot rock fall covering the road, just, you know, total rock. So we stopped the car, and we got out and climbed over the rocks and walked down to Tassajara and got another car and went back up to get their things.

[12:33]

We had to back up a long, long ways on the road. Tia, who's a very good backer, was backing up. Some of you might remember the old yellow suburban. She was backing up the old yellow suburban, and Galen and I were on either side of the back going, no, to the left, to the left. No, no, no, to the right. She just backed it up there, and we got up to the rock pile, backed up, and climbed back over, got their thing, climbed back over, and drove down to Tassajara. But the road is a good example of how it can, you know, where you think you're going might or might not happen. and might or might not happen in the way that you think it's going to. So the other day, two people from, actually from Jamesburg, were leaving Tassarang on their way back to Jamesburg, driving up the road, just a little ways up the road, when suddenly there was a very large bird walking along the road, middle of the road, just walking the middle of the road. And not, as they said, not...

[13:37]

not giving in to there being a car behind it, not yielding the road. So they went really slow behind it. They tried to go as slow as they could, but then the bird would kind of speed up and then they'd worry. So they thought and still think that it was a condor fledgling, juvenile, juvenile condor, who looked like his wings maybe weren't strong enough to take off from the middle of the road. but he didn't go over to the side. So eventually they turned around and came down and called the Condor Rescue Place who said, are you sure this isn't a turkey vulture? No, no, we know it's not a turkey vulture. So then they went back up and it had moved off the road a little ways up onto a little rise. And so they went on to Jamesburg and another student here went back up to check. Was it still there? Was it still there? And later that evening, we didn't see it anymore.

[14:38]

So we thought, and then we went and checked the next morning. He went and checked the next morning. He didn't see it. So we thought, okay, our condor has done whatever condors are supposed to do. Juvenile condors hopefully flew off. But today, they saw it again. So it might be up the road, so be careful. when you go out don't do anything bad to that condor and you might see it along the way so this you know this is another like surprise in the middle of the path in the middle of the road a condor chick or maybe a teenager a condor teenager so with that introduction i wanted to bring up a a poem which I think describes our relationship with things. Let's see if I can remember this one.

[15:41]

Containing without admission. Penetrating without obstruction. Gates and walls, high and steep. barrier locks doubled and redoubled. The wind supports the condor's wings as it breaks out into space. The thunder surrounds the dragon as it treads over the ocean. So I and Tom Cleary, who's a great Buddhist scholar, think that this describes the relationship of our mind and something that we call ourself and and things again things can include other people it can include things and it can include parts of ourself so containing without admission

[16:56]

Penetrating without obstruction is the way our relationship with things are. Actually, we are totally impacted. Everything that, everything, even things we don't notice, have an impact on us. They come into us, and we don't get to choose which parts of them. They have an effect on us. Sometimes we know that effect. A lot of the time we don't know the effect. And we also penetrate them. Without obstruction, it just happens. We may think, oh, that person has a really bad effect on me. When they do that, it feels like obstruction. It's not obstruction. That's called containing without admission. That means... the part that's irritating, the part that's not irritating, the part that we think is wonderful and we would love to have that person have an impact on us, all of that happens in a very complex way that's beyond what we can understand, which is the next part of it.

[18:08]

Gates, the next part of the poem, gates and walls high and steep, barrier locks doubled and redoubled. So even though these things... And again, I want to remind us that some of these things are parts of ourself. You know, parts of ourself that are high and steep. And a barrier lock's doubled and redoubled that we don't understand. We don't know what impact they're having on us. And we won't understand. That's not really, I don't think that's really our job. I mean, it's fine to... study things it's wonderful to study things many good things come from studying things including wisdom there's science and there's making things and there are wonderful discoveries and there's wisdom that comes from studying things because things contain the nature of reality namely they're impermanent and interconnected that's a very brief way of putting it

[19:18]

But for us to study things is a way that we can come to know this, is one of the ways, the way that includes our mind, where we can look at something, anything. You can look at someone you love. You can look at your spouse. You can look at your child. You can look at yourself. And you can look at... you know, the sound of the crickets, you can look at a flower, all of those things, if we look at it closely enough, not contain wisdom, actually are wisdom, actually are the impermanence, the connectedness of things. So to be open to those things is very good, but to think that I will then have it, I will then understand it, and it will be mine, is no that's going too far actually we're part of a very big mystery that's bigger than our minds possibly can understand which again because we have minds we should probably try to understand because our minds are going to do something if we don't try to understand they're just going to play around with ignorance so to try to understand and yet to realize that it's beyond our understanding

[20:44]

So then the wind supports the dragon's wings as it bursts out into space. No, no, no. The wind supports the condor's wings as it bursts out into space. And the thunder surrounds the dragon as it treads over the ocean. Again, I've been reading Tom Cleary on this, and he says... and I like this image, that the dragon and the condor are, he said, enlightened people. Yeah, enlightened people. I would say to whatever extent we're enlightened, to whatever extent we are able to participate in reality as it's happening, we are. condors and dragons so we all have some condor and dragon in us we don't have to be completely condor or dragon but we have you know we have some experience of reality and in that experience the wind and the thunder according to Tom Cleary are the things of everyday life the regular things in our life and that they support us

[22:15]

They surround us and support us to manifest in space, to manifest treading over the ocean. As someone told me yesterday, I think they were quoting their teacher, to say, things that get in the way are the way. So when something looks like it's in the way, we should take another look. Those things actually are the way. And again, maybe especially those things inside of us. You know, we like to think of ourselves as certain kind of people. Like, you know, maybe we like to think of ourselves as kind. And then along comes a situation or a person or whatever, and we find ourselves not being kind. And we think a big mistake has happened. Somehow, I've gotten into this situation that I shouldn't be in because, look, I'm being a real jerk.

[23:22]

And I know I'm not really a jerk. It's just because this situation is happening. But to open up to that situation, open up to our jerkiness, not to make excuses for it, but to actually experience what is it? What is the... the unkindness, what is the fear, probably, that's lurking there, and to let that whole situation, you know, that person, that uncomfortable situation, that uncomfortable way of being, that uncomfortable jerkiness, that uncomfortable unkindness, be the wind that supports us in this world. supports us, you know, to soar through the world in a bodhisattva manner, in a way that's beneficial to beings.

[24:25]

So we can only do that if we're actually grounded, seems a funny word to use in this context, but, you know, our condor's grounded. You know, are dragons grounded? When condors, somebody saw a condor around here, you know, there are several of them around close by. I haven't seen one yet. But somebody was telling me they saw two, I think, right? Just riding on air currents, just like way, way, way up and [...] up without ever flapping their wings. Just riding along. So... that might be called grounded, you know, really grounded on the air. So for us to act completely in accord with the situation in a way that's beneficial, it really helps if we can be open to the whole situation.

[25:30]

If we can, you know, allow the... parts of the world, of other people and ourselves, to support us to, you know, whatever words we use, like if I say to know what the real situation is, it sounds like we would know it with our brain. But so often we don't know it with our brain. You know, it's a much more intuitive, organic thing that's happening in that so what part of this mandala am i now playing uh is something that we sort of have to just we have to discover as it goes along you know nobody hands us apart and says okay now you're ophelia you know or you're now you get to be john adams you know uh you get to be the tanto at tasahara They might tell you that, but then they don't give you the script.

[26:36]

They don't really tell you what it means to be the Tantua Tassahara. You have to find that out. Or what does it mean for you to be? What does it mean for me to be me? That unfolds. As the play unfolds, that's when we find out what it means to be this person in this role and this role and this role. So again, I think that this practice that we do, this meditation practice, gives us an arena, gives us a seat from which to experience for a few moments, consciously or unconsciously, what it's like to not carry a self, what it can be like to open to the unknownness of who we are.

[27:46]

It also gives us a seat from which to experience what it is like to carry a self, and to do that in a slightly more simple situation than our normal walking around life. you can, and I have often sat there through a period of zazen pretty much carrying a self here and carrying it there and thinking this and thinking that and writing whole paragraphs about how terrible it is and how wonderful it could be and what I should do and what I shouldn't do, blah, blah, blah. But with the simplicity of the world not responding to that, we have the chance of seeing, oh, I just made up that whole story. And then I made up the opposite. And nothing happened. Should I choose one? I don't know. So Zazen gives us this actual experience of carrying a self and maybe once in a while not carrying a self.

[28:51]

And... and finding out you know what those what that feels like whether that's safe to do and then somehow I don't know how I think permeates are the way we are so that we have more chance of walking around with a self that we we don't we are think it has to do with fear you know where we're not as afraid to hold it lightly and when it gets changed which it will we're more able to open to that change and let go of the old one that's gone does anyone have any questions thoughts

[29:54]

Just a moment. Michael. What does it mean to participate or not to participate in reality? Did I say that? Well, I don't think we have any choice to not participate in reality. I mean, we're, I was going to say, an alive part of it. But I think even things that we normally don't think of as alive, like rocks, are an alive part of reality. They have an impact. Things happen around them. And I think that's what it means to participate. Did you have a... Well, I think when you were talking, you said that we could, if we participate, then... Oh, go ahead. What did I say? Well, I don't know if you said it, but... Say it again. It would... Go ahead, say it one more time.

[30:54]

Yeah. I remember, yes, what I was saying. Not if we choose to, but if we're able to. I think what I was getting at, and thank you for bringing it up, it's always good, because sometimes I say things I don't exactly mean. The reality is always happening. And if, to the extent that we are able to... open to that I mean we are participating already but we often are resisting like we have an idea of what should be happening and it doesn't quite match and where we keep thinking it it could just it could be this way if we just you know can make them be different or it could make ourselves be different or so to the extent that we can leave that and actually be there for the experience that we're having I think that could be called realization, being there for what's real, realizing what is real, what's really happening now, and that it's a lot... Even when it's sad, even when it's painful, in many ways it's less painful than what we normally do, where we're just...

[32:24]

fighting actuality. So that's what I meant. I think that's what I meant. Yes. Yes. I can't quite see who you are, but right there. Yeah. You're not... Did you raise your hand? Oh, okay. Yes. Everyone wants you to say something. My understanding of what you've said is that I have to be open to the fact that there is change going on within me and that I'm not in control of that change. And I'm wondering how much I should wish to control the change of Tassahara. The change of Tassahara? Yeah. You mean like when I said somebody's going to come up to me and say, I think Tassahara should be completely different?

[33:26]

Yeah, I don't think it's very helpful to wish to control the change of anything. Of course, we do participate in change. And we all have an effect. So we can't choose to be an inert object. We have to admit that whatever we do does have an effect. And we have responses. You know, so if someone says, as they used to say a lot, they used to say to me when I was the director here years ago, I don't think we should make the beds at Tassajara anymore. At Esalen they don't make the beds, they just put the sheets out on the beds. But the guests can make their own beds. Why do we have to make the beds? We don't have enough people, blah, blah, blah. And I, because my first job here was on cabin crew, and pretty much every summer... To some extent, I've worked making beds at Tassajara, and I know it's a wonderful practice. I would so hate to have it not happen at Tassajara, that bed-making thing.

[34:35]

You go in there with some person you've never met before or hardly met before, and then you do this dance around the bed. You figure out how to move the sheets and whether to tuck them in or not. It's so beautiful. And you thought we were making it for you. So I used to get really upset when they would just say it. You know, it was like fear would take over my stomach that this wonderful practice was going to be lost. That, you know, that fear didn't really help. It just made me defensive. And then sometimes they would say it louder and stronger and longer. You know, whereas if I can be open to their saying it, okay, and then... what do you think people would do in the morning? You know, really asking instead of, who knows, maybe someday we shouldn't make the beds. So far, I still think we should make the beds.

[35:36]

And I think as long as I think that, I should say it. But if I'm saying it with tightness, you know, without listening to why someone thinks we shouldn't, does that make sense? Okay. You're welcome. Thank you. And it's time to end on a note. Thank you all very much. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[36:21]

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