This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good evening. It's so nice to see so many old and new friends. here. Thank you very much for coming. I'd like to start kind of in Greg Fane fashion by thanking my teacher. Greg, I'd like to thank Greg for inviting me also. Christina, for her support last fall during my Shusoul practice period, and Tia, who's been shining the light for me for about 13 years now.

[01:20]

Tonight I'd like to talk a little bit about something that's near to all of us in this practice, but about the wilderness. And wilderness as a metaphor for the wisdom and compassion of this practice. I thought I would start by asking you all what wilderness is to you. A couple of people can pipe up words that You think of the wilderness. What is the wilderness to you? Untouched. Pure. Untouched. Pure. Unknown. Lost. Lost. Wild. Uninhabited. Uninhabited. Respite. Unconstructed.

[02:21]

This is great. Attained. Attained. Untamed. Uncultivated. This is great. How about this question? How do you feel when you're in the wilderness? Scared? Free? Brave? Quiet? Grounded. Spacious. Attentive. So, I don't know if any of you know this, but this year is the 50th anniversary of the Wilderness Act. And, you know, it's part of

[03:26]

The Zen Center is part of a group of four different communities that all live, make their homes in the Ventana Wilderness, something called the Four Winds Council. And we get together every quarter at one of the four temples, I could say in our lingo. And we talk about how it's going. And the last one I went to, the Ventana Wilderness Alliance, was there talking about different things. And they brought this up about the wilderness and the 50th anniversary and different things that they're doing. They rely heavily on volunteers and our support to help take care of the Ventana, which is huge. I wanted to read you two things from the Wilderness Act. This is the first sentence. In order to assure I'm getting older. In order to assure that an increasing population accompanied by expanding settlement and growing mechanization does not occupy and modify all areas within the United States and its possessions, leaving no lands designated for preservation and protection in their natural condition.

[04:45]

It is hereby declared to be the policy of the Congress to secure for the American people of present and future generations the benefits of an enduring resource of wilderness. A little bit later on they talk about that they define wilderness. A wilderness in contrast with those areas, this is 50 years old, where man and his own works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain, so as to preserve its natural conditions, and which generally appear to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature. a wilderness practice.

[06:01]

The wilderness for me is a place of refuge. A lot of the words I heard people saying I think resonate deeply with me as well. It's a place of refuge from human, I would say, human constructs. in nature as it is. In Zen, this is very similar to our practice. In particular, sometimes we talk about something called shikan paza, which is often translated as just sitting. This is getting in touch with the wilderness inside.

[07:03]

I'm also lucky enough at this time to be co-leading a retreat with a group who are doing True Body, True Self, Radical Presence through Zen and Yoga. This radical presence is similar. It's actually not different from the shikantaza or this mind of wilderness. Radical, I was telling the group, comes from the Latin radix, which means root. If anybody remembers from their mathematics, when you talk about the square root, let's see, from your perspective, it would be like this. Sometimes we call that the radical. also. So the radical is the root. So the root presence. This is Shikantaza. I would say this is the continuous abiding and direct perception of things as it is.

[08:21]

Suzuki Roshi was particularly fond of this expression, things, plural, as it is, singular. kind of holding up simultaneously the relative and the ultimate, the diversity and the inseparability. It is vast like the wilderness. It is non-judgmental like the wilderness. You go into the wilderness and things, it's hard to deny that things, it's much more obvious sometimes that things are as they are. You go into the civilization, the city, and everywhere you look, it's been touched by the human mind in terms of the buildings, the cars, the constructs.

[09:22]

Suzuki Roshi said, something which comes out of nothing, nothingness, is naturalness, like a seed or plant coming out of the ground. The seed has no idea of being some particular plant, but it has its own form and is in perfect harmony with the ground, with its surroundings. As it grows in the course of time, it expresses its nature. For a plant or a stone, to be natural is no problem. But for us, there is some problem. Indeed, a big problem. To be natural is something which we must work on. When what you do just comes out of nothingness, you have quite a new feeling For instance, when you're hungry, you take some food.

[10:32]

To take some food is naturalness. You feel natural. When you are expecting too much, to have some food is not natural. You have no new feeling. You have no appreciation for it. So zazen, in this practice that we do, and that I think we all start to feel when we enter this wilderness, even on the drive in, and you look around and you open your senses to everything that's around you, is nature in its natural state, its mind, the mind, in its natural state, without our intervention. So, we talk. it's important and helpful to calm the mind and it happens on its own with a little patience and if thoughts arise it's not necessarily a problem if we can let them come up and let them go just like the tree grows

[11:57]

And when the time is right, the tree falls, or the leaves come and the leaves fall. The leaves aren't a problem for the tree. Suzuki Roshi said, the true practice of zazen is to sit as if drinking water when you're thirsty. There you have naturalness. It is quite natural for you to take a nap when you're very sleepy. But to take a nap just because you're lazy, as if it were the privilege of a human being to take a nap, is not naturalness. You think, my friends, all of them are napping. Why shouldn't I? When everyone else is not working, why should I work so hard? When they have a lot of money, why don't I? This is not naturalness. Your mind is entangled with some other idea, someone else's idea.

[13:04]

And you're not independent, not yourself, and not natural. So the trick is not getting caught by the thoughts. So for me, this wilderness that we all experience at Tassajara is here in all of us. And when we go out, we can all take it with us, or we do take it with us. And it's there, accessible to us whenever we stop and pay attention.

[14:07]

Now, somebody brought up fear or I'm being lost in the world. This is another idea that we can have. In the practice that's rich for me right now is staying close to whatever is arising. So if it's fear in the wilderness of our mind, of our hearts, of the unknown, then can I allow that to be? Can we allow whatever is arising to be? Because it's already there. Can we give it the space not to hold on to it or to change it or to push it away, reject it, but to hold space for it to be seen and transform?

[15:42]

Suzuki Roshi said, if you can just sit and experience the actuality of nothingness in your practice, there's no need to explain. If it comes out of nothingness, whatever you do is natural, and that is true activity. You have true joy of practice, true joy of life in it. Everyone comes out of nothingness, moment after moment. Moment after moment, we have true joy, true joy of life. So in my case, I have a couple of children. I have two children. A son who's seven and a half and a daughter who is two and a half. And they manifest their own form of wilderness. My two and a half year old, my daughter Rio, is fond of dumping things.

[17:17]

She does it very proudly and says, my dump. Yogurt, granola. She has no concern about where or what. And of course, from my training as a member of this culture, there's some part of my mind that says, no! But for her, it's no big deal. It's even kind of cool. So, it's a wonderful reminder. And to stop, notice my own aversion arising, some idea maybe that this shouldn't be this way, and then to, you know, that one's pretty hard for me.

[18:32]

Many years ago when I was living at City Center, it was Halloween, and I had a motorcycle with little saddlebags, and The morning after Halloween, I went out to go somewhere, and somebody had stuffed raw Cornish hens in the saddlebags and broken some eggs in the helmet. And I remember this thought of, this is not okay, like this is not acceptable, was the term. And as soon as I thought that, whenever that comes up now, it's this... So there's this wisdom practice of stopping and feeling that, dropping into what is happening right now in this body, in this mind.

[19:37]

And when I can do that, it's not really an issue. And the more I can stop and then... give myself the space to feel the aversion kind of... You know, I get this from Tia. It's this kind of sweetness. It's like, oh, you think it shouldn't be this way, don't you? Yeah, it sucks, doesn't it? Oh, it's okay. Okay, what do we do now? And then you clean it up. clean up the yogurt and the granola, you take out the Cornish hens, and you do what's next. So this wilderness of things as it is and our mind as it is

[20:51]

everything that that includes, which excludes nothing, to be with that and let that be and see it as clearly as we can, can allow this meeting it in a way that's not conditioned by our conditioning. I wanted to leave some time for questions. there are any. So... Yeah, Levi. This has been a big issue for me in my practice, especially here in the summer. This question of the line between naturalness and lucidity. Doing whatever, regardless of which certainly feels nourishing at the time, but there's just this kind of, there's a caution to not really go all the way into that.

[22:05]

I'm curious about what you think about that. The line. Yeah. When does naturalness become, what's the difference? Your heart knows the difference. And I think as soon as you start to become aware that there's a question, you know the answer already. You may not like the answer, or you may kind of hope it's something else, but you know. Yeah. Yes, vitika. Wonder. And for me, it's got both meanings, right? Wonder like, wow.

[23:09]

And wonder like, wow. What is this? You know? Inspiring, amazing, unknown. And yet, there's a direct experience of it. Thank you. Yes, Tashi. I find that it was necessary practice. And that works so much for me because as I increase my awareness and increase my openness, I see what I've ever allowed myself to see in myself. I'm also receiving from the external world as well. I don't feel like I have my means for holding it with the kindness and compassion that still is at my seeing level.

[24:18]

It's really fascinating. And sometimes I wish I didn't start down this because it's a lot. I don't know how to I think that's why they call it a practice. Yeah. In a sense, we're reconditioning ourselves. Right? So... staying as close as we can to whatever is coming up. And maybe there's the initial aversion, and maybe there's, you know, sometimes we talk about putting a head on a head, sometimes often at the beginning, or sometimes there could be an aversion to the aversion, right?

[25:19]

So as much as possible, just staying close to the deepest truth, response, awareness, And if you notice that you're, I don't know if you're saying you're judging it or you want your response to be different, of course, when things are difficult and painful, we often want it to be easier or not so painful. And then we can notice that it's all Sometimes the most painful things are the greatest opportunities for growth. And the most difficult practices bear very rich fruit.

[26:21]

So thank you for your efforts. Danny. If I asked your initial question, I found myself thinking the word I would use is constructive. I think the role in this conceptiveness has all sorts of historical and political baggage to it and it excludes Native Americans and living on land. I guess I wonder what the consequences of reading certain things as pure, would they also have a lot of And more subtle, but unforeseen. Yeah, there's just a lot more happening. Did you say meeting things as pure? Or... What was the word you used? Meeting and meeting it? I guess maybe just identifying things as pure or as true or basic.

[27:26]

That have a lot of other things, like more subtle things happening. In terms of the world that is just defined... it's a pure landscape i'm in when there may be things like within me that i'm not identifying as subtle assumptions or subtle things going on or like subtle assumptions that i'm making about this landscape yeah in some sense i would say that pure is extra right it is what it is for you um And it's really good to be aware of what it is we think it is. Right? And what that means. Mostly so that we don't get caught by it. And that we don't take it as the truth. Even though it's what we think maybe it is.

[28:27]

I don't know if that answers or gets to your question. I think, yeah, when we have ideas about something, no matter what, those ideas are never going to match or be the thing itself. So they're always going to fall short, and there are always going to be other things going on. It's like Dogen Nigenjo Koan talking about, you know, in a drop of water, there are so many different ways that water is perceived by beings, and there are millions of worlds in a drop of water or in a mountain in the landscape. So there's more than we see. I agree. I don't know if I'm missing something, though, about... Okay. Thanks, Tammy.

[29:27]

Yes? How... I sometimes this practice is... It feels merciless. That's where the bravery comes in. You need to answer my question. Well, I'm just wondering how to, how to insert, how to remember, if you have a worry, how to remember joy and enjoy. I see some people do this practice and they've just had light, and I know they're doing hard work. I know it. And I... And they have a buoyancy. So how to cultivate buoyancy, you know, without getting overdone? Without floating away? I think in some ways, you know, hard work can be joyous.

[30:37]

There can be plenty of joy in hard work. I think that's part of, you know, when you do something, it's kind of like I'm learning this also as a parent, right? I might want my son to clean up his loft, but he doesn't care if it's clean or not. And so in a sense, if I want to clean it, then I can be the one to clean it if he doesn't mind me moving his stuff around. So let's see, what am I trying to say? When it comes from your heart and you're doing it because it's this naturalness that Suzuki Roshi is talking about, because it feels right, not because you think it's the right thing to do or you think it's going to help you out and be beneficial or everybody else is doing it or, you know, the closer you can stay to just following your heart, then everything you do from there

[31:41]

in my experience, there's a lot better chance of joy arising. You know? And you're not doing it for any other reason than to do it. Yeah. So when you notice that you are, you can notice that I'm going to go and just come back to whatever it is you're doing. Yes, Kent. So what do you do when your two-year-old or three-year-old dumps food all over the place? You know, sometimes there's a loud, no! And, of course, it's done. It doesn't help. I think for me, it's really important for me to try to not make her feel ashamed or to kill any part of her through my reaction to it.

[33:10]

Right? Right? And she gives me very good immediate feedback. You know, kids are good at that, too. If we're paying attention, they're telling us everything we need to know about where they are, how they're doing. So I can tell, you know, if I've gone too far, and she does this, she kind of puts her hands down, she totally puts her head down on her chest. then I can give my attention to her, not in a negative way. Maybe we talk about it. That's not going to help to talk about it. But she can see you cleaning it up. And I think this is something that they grow through and learn, not because we beat it out of them or because we convince them it's

[34:18]

unacceptable or inconvenient. But, you know, it all changes. Did you want to say something else? Well, I'm thinking while you're talking. Extrapolate to, like, I'm half people that work for me and I need to change their behavior. And, uh, You know, the adult is turning over his food in whatever they're doing. And I don't want to hurt them, but I do want them to do what they need to do. I'm thinking it were a job, but it could be anything. I want them to be a better person or a more thoughtful person. Right. So the trick when they're stuck, in terms of Zen Buddhist practices, I understand it and practice it.

[35:21]

When that comes up, the light comes back here. And we look at our own, you know, what's coming up for us in terms of wanting to control, in terms of having a difficult time accepting what our ideas are about the situation, about the person. Maybe we can start to see how that affects and reaffirms the behavior. So in the conventional world, we look at sending rockets to the moon and building skyscrapers and cars and even tables and controlling our environment. And I think the important part here is about our suffering for ourselves and others. and to watch closely how we feel when we think certain things.

[36:27]

So in this case, you can watch what comes up for you when whatever comes up for you around this thing. And depending, I mean, if you're doing something and it seems to be working and the other person is, it's not like you can't say to an adult, oh, let me show you another way of doing that. Or let me show you who the sink is. Whatever it is. And maybe that's fine. Maybe that works. But on your own side, if there's a question of is this, you could say, a problem for you in your mind, in your heart, is there suffering arising? You can start to pay close attention to what it is in here that's bringing that up without thinking that it's got everything to do with the person outside. sort of taking responsibility for our response and noticing what our habitual response is.

[37:29]

And you can see, you can kind of look into, is this helpful, what I'm doing or not? Maybe it is. If it is, then fine. But if you're paying close attention, kind of like what Levi was saying, you might notice actually that even if it seems to be helpful for the other person, maybe it doesn't feel so clean in here. Maybe there's something that's a little painful. Or... And the more we can stay close to that, we can drop, there's sort of this motivation to drop our habitual patterns. And then you're in this totally new terrain. You get this new feeling, I think, that Tsutsukiroshi's talking about. And you do something that is on... It's not coming from our habitual conditioned response. Something new happens, and then you can see How does that feel? You check the other person, how is that for them? And then things can shift, in particular if it's a stuck situation, which I'm kind of maybe adding on to what you said, assuming that this is something you've tried and it keeps happening, you don't know what to do.

[38:37]

So I don't know if that helps. Thank you. So I think it's time to end. Thank you very much. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click giving.

[39:12]

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