This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. I wanted to say a few words about my dear friend, Dennis Rodriguez, who we just got the sad news of his passing. There are at least a few people here who were, I think, pretty close to him who worked with him in the accounting office, Greg and Shogun. I knew Dennis a long time ago. Actually, I can't remember whether it was when I was first at Zen Center in the 70s or when we came back from Tassajara in the 80s, which time, whether he was there in that beginning time. When I first knew him, he was just a regular Zen student.

[01:00]

He didn't work in the accounting office. We didn't have an accounting office, probably. But also, he was just a Zen student. And my main memory of Dennis is how much he was an example of how when we say you sit with a straight back, we mean what's straight for your back. Dennis was always in the Zendo. And there was no way that Dennis's back could ever be straight in the regular way that we think about it, right? He had to sit with the back that he had. And in that way, I think Dennis continued to be a great example of practice. Like, how do we live with the body and mind that we have? and that that's actually what this practice is about, how to do that, not how to make your mind into a straight mind or your back into a straight back.

[02:03]

It's how do we live with the back and mind, et cetera, et cetera, that we have. And then at some point Dennis went away, and then he came back to the accounting office where he, for years, years, I don't know how many years, did the accounts payable and also the payroll checks for foreign students. So even those of you who don't think you know him may have been intimately affected by him one way or another. So his passing, in some ways like all of ours, but maybe more obviously, was both sudden and and very gradual it was pretty obvious that he had a painful physically painful life and yet you know he just proceeded day by day he made a life that worked for him that supported him and and all of us and then at some point it was the end of it

[03:18]

According to Mark Lancaster's email to us, he had a heart attack a few days ago, sometime last week, and went to the hospital and they inserted some stents, but didn't feel they could do more invasive surgery. He was already pretty tired and pretty weak. And then on Sunday morning, he had trouble breathing, and he was very conscious, however, and said, Please don't do any extraordinary means. And just quietly passed away. So I think as wonderful a life and death as any of us could hope to have. And he will be greatly missed. I... I have in mind to talk about one of my favorite parts of Dogen, which of course can relate to Dennis and all of us, as Dogen always can.

[04:27]

This is, just by chance, is the part of Dogen where he goes straight from the, a little bit, straight from the second chapter of the Lotus Sutra, and only a Buddha and a Buddha. Yui-butsu, yo-butsu. So what shall I do? This is too much to talk about, but I really like it. So what I think I'm going to do is just go ahead and read it to you and then go back. Buddha Dharma cannot be known by a person. For this reason, since olden times, no ordinary person has realized Buddha Dharma. Because it is realized by Buddhas alone, it is said, and here's the quote from the Lotus Sutra, only a Buddha and a Buddha can thoroughly master the true suchness of all things.

[05:30]

Only a Buddha and a Buddha can thoroughly master the true suchness of all things. And that's the title of this whole fascicle. Then he goes on to say, when you realize Buddha Dharma, you do not think... This is realization just as I expected. Even if you do think that, realization invariably differs from your expectation. Realization is not like your conception of it. Realization cannot take place as previously conceived. When you realize Buddha Dharma, you do not consider how realization came about. You should reflect on this. What you think one way or another before realization is not a help for realization. What you think one way or another before realization is not a help for realization. Too bad.

[06:35]

We put a lot of effort into thinking about these things, and according to Dogen, you should reflect on this. What you think one way or another before realization is not a help for realization. Although realization is not like any of the thoughts preceding it, this is not because such thoughts were bad and cannot be realization. Past thoughts in themselves were already realization, but since you were seeking elsewhere, you thought and said that thoughts cannot be realization. However, it is worth noticing that what you think, one way or another, is not a help for realization. Then you are cautious not to be small-minded. You don't think, oh, now I have the right thoughts, now I have the wrong thoughts. Or if you do think that, you don't believe it. You're not small-minded about your thoughts. If realization came forth by the power of your prior thoughts,

[07:41]

it will not be trustworthy. If you could just think yourself into realization, if you could just figure out what realization is and then figure out how to get your thoughts in line with it, that wouldn't be trustworthy. Realization does not depend on thoughts, but comes forth far beyond them. Realization is helped only by the power of realization itself. Realization is helped only by the power of realization itself. I sometimes think in this case, the translation of realization might be the actualization of reality. So there's reality, there's life as it's happening, and our realization is only helped by that reality happening.

[08:45]

And Dogen says, know then that there is no delusion and there is no realization. Of course Dogen says that. Okay. Then he says, when you have unsurpassed wisdom, you are called Buddha. When Buddha has unsurpassed wisdom, it is called unsurpassed wisdom. Why? I don't know why he says that. Then he says... not to know what it is like on this path is foolish. Okay, feeling bad yet? Not to know what it is like on this path of unsurpassed wisdom is foolish. And then I think he goes on to tell us why it's foolish is because it's so simple. Not to know what it's like is foolish because it's so simple. What it is like is to be unstained. To be unstained does not mean that you try forcefully to exclude intention or discrimination.

[09:57]

So what it's like is to be unstained. To be unstained does not mean that you try forcefully to exclude intention or discrimination. or that you establish a state of non-intention. Being unstained cannot be intended or discriminated at all. Being unstained is like meeting a person and not considering what he looks like. Also, it is like not wishing for more color or brightness when viewing flowers or the moon. To tell the truth, this is my favorite sentence. Okay. because it makes it seem like it might be possible. Being unstained, which is the same as unsurpassed wisdom, is like not wishing for more color or brightness when viewing flowers or the moon. I think this is something we've all experienced.

[11:02]

We've actually seen the moon or seen a flower and been satisfied. We didn't think we had to think up a better moon or a better flower. We thought, there's a great moon. There's a great flower. I'm grateful to be able to see it. Spring has a tone of spring, and autumn has the scene of autumn. There's no escaping it. So when you want spring or autumn to be different from what it is, notice that it can only be as it is. Or when you want to keep spring or autumn as it is, reflect that it has no unchanging nature. You know, as we've been studying the Lotus Sutra, one of the passages that jumped out at me was...

[12:08]

Toward the beginning, Buddha says to Shariputra, you should know that from the start, at the start, I took a vow hoping to make all persons equal to me without any distinctions between us. That's great. And what I long ago hoped for has now been fulfilled. Long ago at the start, which I don't know exactly what that means, at the start of what, maybe at the start of his enlightenment, I took a vow hoping to make all persons equal to me without any distinctions between us. And what I long ago hoped for has now been fulfilled. That's, I think, the basis for this only a Buddha and a Buddha, that...

[13:14]

You know, where to begin. If we have the potential to be Buddhas, if we are all Buddhas, one way that that is manifest or experienced is that we actually see that all beings, all things, people and other things, are Buddha. We actually see that. We actually... treat them like that. Now, we may have glimpses of that, but I think in most of our regular lives, it's not such a full experience. We have experiences of feeling like other people or situations or things are not Buddha. In fact, they're mistakes. They shouldn't be happening this way.

[14:18]

We have some, you know, in some ways deeper than a thought like that. We have an experience like that. We have a cringing away from the way certain people or certain things manifest. We think this is not right. But I think that the Lotus Sutra and Dogen in Only a Buddha and a Buddha are pointing to That's the place, that's like the crux of practice, is that place where we cringe away from or also lean toward. Because if we treat somebody else like Buddha, we could call it Buddha or we could call it, you know, wonderful manifestation, you know, somebody or something else. so that we lean toward them or toward it away from ourselves, away from being settled on this person.

[15:26]

And if we look at somebody else and we think they're better than me, in whatever realm we're looking at them in, in the realm of teacher or in the realm of partner or in the realm of someone that we have a crush on or someone we think is wonderful, and we lean toward them and we lean away from ourselves, we think, I'm not as good as that. That's where the crux of practice is, is to notice this not treating everything as Buddha. Picking out some things as Buddha. often ourselves, you know, often we value our own opinion, our own experience more than others, others' words or experiences, but sometimes others rather than ourselves. To notice what that experience is like and to practice right there, to come close to there, is, I think, what...

[16:38]

what Dogen is talking about anyway. And it's maybe a complicated thing. What does that mean? If we're looking at that, if we're open to that experience at a kind of subtle level, if we notice it, if we notice, oh, I'm leaning towards somebody or something, or I'm leaning away from them, or I'm disparaging them, or thinking numerous thoughts we have about people when we think they're wrong, Either they're, you know, maybe we think they don't count or sometimes we think they're confused or, you know, this I think came up for a lot of us in this Lotus Sutra when Buddha was talking about the 500 or however many people, 500,000 or how many people left the assembly.

[17:55]

And there was this question about, you know, so what does skillful mean? You know, skillful means was maybe waiting for them to leave, but... Anyway, I think a lot of us felt some dis-ease about somebody using skillful means on us. Maybe not Buddha. Maybe it would be okay if Buddha had some idea about what we needed and proceeded to arrange the world so that we would get it. But if you think you know what I need and try to give it to me, you know, we get, or if I think I know what you need and, you know, try to set that up for you, you know, which of course we do all the time. We do, you know, Michael tries to decide what we need for lunch and he gives it to us and pretty much we accept it or you apply for a practice period and the applications committee tries to decide is that...

[19:03]

good for you and for, you know, everybody else in the practice period. And, you know, so we, in our positions, in our, you know, not just positions at Tassajara as ensinerant, but our positions in our lives, have to do that for each other, right? I mean, try being a parent. It's not fair. You know, you have to, as a parent, you have to do things, you have to be things in somebody's life that's way beyond your capacity. And it has a big impact. You still have to do it. We all have to do that. We all have to walk around in the world having an impact. But we, from the position of the person who's being impacted, from the child or from the person who's applied or from the person who's in interaction with somebody in that that's not going well.

[20:04]

And maybe we agree, maybe we see, oh, I was not really mature there. And what's more, the other person saw I wasn't mature there. And now they may have ideas about me. They may think that I need to see this about myself. So we're pretty wary from that position of... knowing where the other person's coming from. On the other hand, from the other side of it, from the position, if we are talking with someone who's gotten obviously upset and doesn't seem to have anything to do with what we thought we were talking about, how do we practice this, only a Buddha and a Buddha, in that situation? How do we not... put them into the category of confused, triggered person? How do we keep them equal to us?

[21:10]

No distinction, totally equal with us as we relate with them. I think this is worthy of a lot of study. It comes up all the time. In some ways, I think it was what Tassajara was created for. to give us the opportunity to study this, which obviously comes up everywhere without much space, right? Like you're on a job and your boss gets triggered about something. You don't really have the time to go back to the zendo and sit there and think, hmm, I see. All this energy is flowing through me. And how do I continue to see this person as Buddha? But here at Tassajara, we get to go back to the Zendo. We get to have our meals take hours. And so we can sit there and think, reflect on the effort that brought us this food and whether our virtue and practice deserve it.

[22:16]

We get to walk down the path in Shashu with our eyes down so that we can notice, here am I, here's the energy that's coursing through me. I just had an interaction with that person and stuff is going on. Only a Buddha and a Buddha can master the suchness of true reality. That there is no way that we can do that on our own. We don't see fully. We never see fully. Suzuki Roshi said, big mind is seeing that you can only see things from your own perspective. Big mind is knowing that we have only a limited perspective. And yet, we have a perspective.

[23:19]

We have a body, a mind to settle into in order to play our part in the world. There's no way, really, to get away from your part. We might wish to just check out of this situation for a while. It seems too complicated. Maybe we think, I've got too much invested here. I can't get enough view of myself clinging to act in a clear, compassionate way. I should just step out. We can do that. We can step out. But stepping out is not having an effect. You know, it came up in the class the other day, and maybe while I've been gone, you've talked about it more, but about free will. Do we have free will? You know, I think this is such a complicated question.

[24:21]

Such a, you know, not easily answered. Like, no, obviously we don't have free will. Look at how determined we are by things, by our past, by our present, by, as Linda Ruth was saying, by all the things that aren't happening right now. The fact that there's not an earthquake going on right now, that's got free will. That's got nothing to do with our free will. On the other hand, we can't get away from our responsibility. We have an impact, always. There's no not doing. There's no passivity even. We might think we're being passive, but it's having an impact. If we say, I have to step out of this situation, that has an impact. So how do we do this?

[25:23]

How do we be in our little dharma position and yet be open to all the Buddhas surrounding us, all the Buddhas having an impact on us. Well, Dogen says, we don't try to establish a state of non-intention. We don't try to forcefully... I don't know if I can find it here... So we don't try to establish what we think would be the right approach. We don't try to discriminate what is the right way to meet everything as Buddhas. This whole passage seems to me to be such an explanation of Soto Zen.

[26:35]

Like I said, like Tassajara seems set up to help this kind of practice happen, where we settle on the self, but in an open, vulnerable way, you know, where we can, where we're not settling on the self to protect the self, to, you know, set up walls so that they can't get to me or I won't do certain things. Instead, you know, here you're asked to do something new. You know, serve in the zendo that maybe you've never done before. Do the drum. Be a doon. Be the head of a crew. Be vulnerable. Essentially, be vulnerable. Find out who is this and can I stay with it? Can I be open-hearted with this one? when that one appears.

[27:37]

And again, it doesn't mean that we don't do something. Sometimes we do, walk away. Sometimes maybe we say something, something that someone might even consider harsh. Not exactly to decide to do that, but sometimes that is what's happening, or that is what happens. I think that sitting as much as we are, one of the things that happens is a kind of lack of control, lack of the kind of control that we have spent our life developing, where we have tried to learn the kinds of control that we need to have, we think we need to have, control our anger, control our giddiness, control various kinds of control. put a lot of effort into having, and then you come to Tassajara and you sit a lot, and I think one of the things that happens is that control, that almost physical tightening that we've done to ourselves starts to loosen up.

[28:49]

And, you know, it's within this pretty contained container. Here we are, there's a schedule, you know, Most of us are not running around crazy with this lack of control, but sometimes we do say things or definitely most people feel things at Tassajara that they maybe thought they were done with, thought they'd already gotten to the bottom of, but here it is again with some force, some memory, or some emotion that Can we need it? Can we just stay with it? What do we need to do with it? Is there anything we need to do with it? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe there is something that we need to do. Maybe there's just sitting there with it. And letting it be part of us.

[29:54]

Which means... It will be part of all of us because here we are in each other's world having an impact on each other. And can we, without establishing the way to be, establishing what we think is the way to be, still can we have this Well, I would say, can we notice that sometimes we do look at a flower or the moon or a person and they're just there? And we're just there with them. We're just having whatever experience we're having. And then when that isn't what's happening, can we, when we have an opinion about this person shouldn't be like, they shouldn't serve me like that, you know, they just... They went from the top of the soup and I didn't get any beans.

[30:58]

Terrible. What's wrong with them? Didn't they hear? When we have that feeling, when we have that feeling, can we not reject that feeling for, wait a minute, they're a flower. They're just a flower. The soup's just a flower. The moon, the soup is the moon and it looks just fine without beans. You know, we might do that too, but if that feeling is there of, you know, whatever the feeling is, can we be with that feeling too? Can we treat the feeling in the same way? The feeling as the flower or the moon and see what's there, you know, what kind of, you know, I don't know, but sometimes it's like, I'll never get enough. You know, no one will ever serve me in the way. that I need to be served. I need beans, you know.

[32:02]

This causes trouble, I know. Excuse me. This is just a story. Don't worry. But this way of meeting ourself is practice for how we can also meet other beings. If we can't meet ourself that way, we won't be able to meet other beings that way. And in fact, you know, I think if we look at it, at least I think I've seen that the hardest thing for me is my own responses. You know, I start out thinking it's what they did, it's what he did. And then as I look at it, it's like, ooh, it's no, it's actually how I'm feeling. That's what's hard for me. A favorite example of mine some of you have heard is if someone is riding on a chalkboard with chalk and it squeaks, we think, oh, that's terrible. I hate that sound.

[33:02]

But if you notice, it's not so much the sound, it's what happens inside you when the sound happens. That's what I hate. I hate feeling like that. So to meet wherever we are, whatever is in front of us, it's really complicated. It's like what's in front of you is something you hate, and you're feeling hate. And then somehow you have the feeling toward that hate of, this is like a flower, this is like the moon. It's not really something we can... Think out, right? It's something that develops. It's a capacity that we have. Mostly, I think we have to get past our fear.

[34:04]

Our fear that this is not the right way to be or this will be too hard. This is too painful. I can't have this feeling. So we do it. You know, usually little by little, once in a while, big leaps. But stay, just stay, just stay. But while you're just staying, live. Interact. You know, be on a serving crew. Let those other Buddhas have an impact on you. Because only with the other Buddhas are we going to actually meet. all that we have to meet in order to know the suchness of something true reality the true suchness of all things in this translation so let me stop there and see if you have any thoughts questions yes

[35:16]

There wasn't anything in quotes, it was just that he asked, when he started having trouble breathing, he was in the hospital, that he asked him not to do any extraordinary things to keep him alive. so beyond my control that they're not, you know, their function is not something that I can do. I can only kind of like create the ground for them to happen naturally by just having this kind of ordinary, you know, being with things. Like, and it's frustrating because I want to be able to like, oh, I'll just flip the switch and have no aversion.

[36:27]

Yeah. Or And, I would say, and having no aversion to aversion. You know, having, I mean, not no aversion to aversion, but having interest, actually, in aversion instead of our normal, like, no, I shouldn't be having aversion, or we don't, you know, it isn't even called aversion, it's just called pain. I shouldn't be having this yucky feeling and immediately going to... Why am I having this junky feeling? Oh, it's because they're doing a terrible thing or because I'm doing a terrible thing, right? So right there is, like, there's some more, like, settling thing. Like, oh, moving from averting from aversion to settling with aversion changes the world. Yeah, you're right. Thank you.

[37:30]

Did I interrupt you? Was there anything else you wanted to say? Yes, Michael. Many times in the past, there's been things that have been pointed out to me by friends, family members, maybe people who weren't so friendly, and said, you know, Michael, you're doing this, or I don't like that, or that really impacts me in this way, sometimes really skillfully, sometimes really not skillfully. Yes. But I learned a lot through that. Yes. And sometimes I don't learn a thing through it, I just ignore it. But the opportunity to learn from it was just... It was offered. It was offered. And then, with me navigating the world, people do stuff where I think, that shouldn't really be pointed out to them. Or I should say something. But then I feel like, my main motivation is that I want to tell them. I have a want. I want them to know that they kind of bothered me. But there is some feeling in there that maybe there is some responsibility, especially if you're a closer person, that I say something at some point.

[38:33]

So how do you navigate between the whole reflecting on what is really my own karma and causes and conditions and focusing on that, but not just leading the other person over there on their own island and being like, I have no responsibility ever. Yeah. Yeah. Good point. Well, they're not. They are never over on their own island. That's not really an option. We may wish they were, or we may spend a whole lot of time digging a moat to protect our island from them, but that's feedback of a sort. We communicate with each other. We don't even know how we communicate with each other. We've got... whatever those are, and we've got, you know... Anyway, all kinds of ways. And then there are words and looks and all that. So, yeah. I think one thing that has really been important for me is, you know, I get to talk to a whole lot of people, which is wonderful.

[39:40]

You really learn a lot. And one of the things that seems to me like I've learned over these years is... Most of the feedback we give doesn't touch what's going on inside the person. I mean, I've had so many opinions and opportunities taken and not taken to tell people what I thought they needed to know. It's just so obvious, right? Look around. Look at your friends. You can see. Oh, if they just let go of that, they'd be in so much less pain. Living as we do here, we can do that for almost everyone here. Just that thing. Just don't do that or don't think like that. And most of the time, it doesn't match. Sometimes these people come to me and they say what's going on with them. It's like I never would have guessed. It's a different internal world happening.

[40:46]

And eventually... I mean, that's what we're about here is we get to it ourselves. You know, we get to what's going on there. Now, it doesn't mean that, again, we don't really have the option of just, like, leaving them on their island until they get there, wherever that is, which we don't know where that is, but until they get to the bottom of their particular knot that's happening. We have to keep interacting with them. So... You know, that's one of the questions this brings up for me. Is this something we think about? Like, how should I interact with this person who's having a certain thing in my life, you know, an effect in my life? We do think about it some. I think, you know, it's not really a question, should we think about it? We do think about it, but... You know, what we think one way or another before realization does not really have an effect on it, either our realization or their realization.

[41:48]

So still we keep thinking and we keep acting. Can we open our hearts a little bit to the fact that we can only see things from our own perspective? That there is another perspective going on over there. You know, whatever... The being is, if we're talking about people right now, you know, the other person has a perspective going on that we don't know about. So we can, you know, one way of saying is we add a huge, big dose of not knowing into our interactions, into our heart, really. And so sometimes, you know, a really good thing to do is to ask the other person what's happening. You know, we get some idea of what's happening, but what about instead of telling them what we think they need to know, actually ask them what's happening.

[42:50]

Now, sometimes, you know, that's, it's too intimate. You know, we aren't really invited to ask them. So we need to be careful of that, you know. Yeah, I think, you know, one of the main things is there aren't, I believe, there aren't, like, there is not, like, a right answer. There's just, you do your best. You try to stay open-hearted, mostly actually toward yourself, like Levi was saying, toward your, my aversion and pain. Stay open-hearted toward that, and that will allow us to be more open-hearted to the people who are involved in it. And then we, because we have no choice, We proceed, we do things, and sometimes we have to apologize. But we try to stay open. What was the impact of that? One of the big things is that we are so... We believe in our thinking mind.

[44:03]

We believe that our thinking mind is the way we are going to affect our life. the way we're going to make our life work. We believe that. Most of us, most of the time, are thinking, oh, I'll decide to do this and that will be good. Or, oh, I made a mistake deciding to do that. And we forget the organic flow of our life, of which our thinking is like a little pin sitting on the top of this organic flow of our life together. So... Again, I think a big part of Soto Zen and practice of Tassajara is a kind of settling into the organicness of our life. And then thinking is a part of that. Speaking is a part of that, but it's not the whole thing. Thank you. Anything else? Yes, Emma. I think, you know, it's because of something kind of solid and recognizable, but then kind of longer I think that I have to learn is, like, you know, that's not it.

[45:27]

And so, yeah, in terms of relating to these emotions or feelings, the way of, like, yeah, I don't know, it can pop Basically, I don't feel like I have some way to work around it. Yeah, yeah. Who's a part of it? It's harder to recognize that as... Dependent co-arising or something. Yeah, yeah. Where other people nearby are... actually involved in, like you can talk to them about it and have some impact on it. Yeah. Yeah. You know, one of the things I think as we open to those, it does seem to me to be true, like we mostly don't have any new feelings.

[46:34]

Like we have some feelings we've had for years and years and years, and they go up and down in intensity. Most of us, karmically, it seems to have deep habits of feelings. If we can stay open to those feelings, I think one of the things we find out is that as we have more understanding, less sense of I have to get away from this feeling, and more a sense of, oh, this happens in this body and mind. And yes, it might be painful, but it's... it doesn't kill me, which is what we usually feel like, I'm gonna die if I have this, you know, if I open to this, it'll be like the end. If we can stay open to it, that it actually very, very much relates to how other people experience it. Their feeling might be a little different, but our responses are so much the same.

[47:35]

So it makes us much, as we understand ourselves, immediately we understand others to that extent. And in that way, it's very connected. Also, you can see often, or maybe you can see it better with other people, how them having their feelings actually has an impact on you. So even though it might not have originated with them, when you have that feeling, then maybe you can't say hello in the same way that you would on a different day. So even though it may not feel like it originated with them, they're still part of it. They're affected by it. It triggers things in them in the same way. So even though this feeling of being isolated is certainly one of our habitual feelings, we can see that it's not true.

[48:36]

It's truly a feeling, but it's not a true description of reality. And then sometimes you, like, maybe... You might step over the doubt and still talk to somebody about it. A useful thing about that is finding out this, like, oh yeah, whatever they say sometimes shows you that you're not so isolated. One reason to go to practice leaders is that we often feel about ourselves since this is the one that we mainly care about and are connected to, when we see some deep, entrenched, painful feeling, we sometimes feel like this is not okay. No one would hate their mother as much as this person does and have them be an okay Zen student, for instance.

[49:41]

But when we go talk to somebody else who we have at least enough respect for them that we care a little bit what they think, and they say, oh, no, either I've felt that way or I've... That's not outside the bounds. That's within the bounds of what happens in a human being. It makes a difference to us. Because in our own little mind, we can decide, I am the weirdest thing. ever existed you know i am truly isolated nobody else could be like this pretty unlikely it's pretty unlikely anything else yes lauren um as i i as i've kind of practiced um and talked with people and all that kind of stuff and talking about those things like settling or kind of trying to be open hearted and it often starts to look again like I'm trying to think my way through it like I'm trying to think my heart into opening or think myself into settling and have a conversation about it and it still doesn't quite touch it and so then I think what I've been kind of hearing and trying to work with is you know like okay what does it feel like like what is it

[51:07]

where do I feel it, or what is the sensation, or trying to get out of the brain a little bit. But even that feels like I'm thinking about it. You are. That's how you described it anyway, yeah. And it doesn't, I mean, also, again, it doesn't really quite touch it. I'm like, okay, yeah, my stomach is tight, or my chest is tight, or whatever. Yeah. Well, to me, that's the great thing about this practice, is it's so physical. You know, even though you're thinking, even though I'm thinking, still my life is going on. So, for instance, sashim, the horrible, wonderful thing of sashim is it gets kind of past our thinking, right? Like, it's like, oh, I'm barely managing to breathe each breath. And I can tell, you know, yeah, my stomach's tight, and yeah, my knee is tight, and what's going on there? And sometimes it actually lets go. I think my experience, having done this for many years, is that there's a settling that actually happens.

[52:12]

We can't not think, and we shouldn't try not to think, because we do think, and our thinking is going to have an effect. So, yeah, we try to bring our thinking in accord, but we try not to put all our energy into our thinking. There's thinking happening, and here's walking down the path, you know? And here's, you know, sunshine today and rain tomorrow, hopefully. Or not tomorrow, but a few days down the road there might be rain. Yeah. It's kind of like changing the center of gravity. Like, it goes on, and it, you know, we're people. We think. We're going to keep thinking. but it's not where the crux of the matter is actually. There's a lot that's happening besides thinking. Thinking happens, it causes us a lot of joy and a lot of pain, and we can learn something about being more skillful with it, but part of the being more skillful with it is actually just putting our attention somewhere else so it isn't running the world like we've been taught to believe it should.

[53:33]

We've been taught to learn this and do it this way, and then everything will be better. Think this way, whatever way that is, and that'll make it work. I don't think so. Thinking will happen. And what about actually doing it? Just do the tea ceremony. Sometimes doing it crowds out the thoughts, but sometimes the thoughts come in anyway. Fine. Miles? Yeah, I was just going to say, well, especially here, I'm noticing just the narrative that I put together to construct myself that I used to think was non-fiction. And what I'll say and who I'll hang out with and all the things I do is just continually building this narrative, which is curious. But I'm wondering when that's all gone, what's left?

[54:34]

Yeah. And when does it go? Does it go at the last breath? Or does it go, you know, does it go away when you go to sleep? Maybe? You know, who knows? Yeah, it's curious, but it's, you know, it's kind of sweet. We don't have to get so upset about it. I was telling Mary, I'm going, my G-co for today, I'm going away again this afternoon. Unbelievable. You know, I just got it. I'm dropping into lecture. Because while... Linda Ruth is up in the city, the central abbess. The meetings that I would have gone to over three months are all happening in 10 days or something. So I went up and I come back and I go up and come back. So here I am. And I said, she said, oh, you just came to lecture? I said, yeah, actually I came to like check and see if I was still me, the me I know here. You know, we do, we do. We're like, who am I?

[55:35]

Am I, you know, am I still, do they know me? You know, do I have a world, a place somewhere, you know? And we put, it's so interesting to see it, like you said, oh, I'm seeing my constructions instead of just what I used to think was like, no, I'm just reciting the facts, you know? No, I'm like trying to convince myself of a certain story, you know? And I think it's deep, we think about it, but it's deeper than our thinking. It's like there's an impulse to find the self. What is the self? And I think our dis-ease actually starts there. We can't really find a self that we can say, this is my self, and if I just get this little part over here safe, everything will be okay. But we've got this impulse.

[56:36]

And it comes out in many ways like, how do you feel about me? Well, how do you feel about me? Well, what about you? Did I do that okay? It's hard. So to see it as, oh, that's what's happening. Oh, poor thing. Oh, and that's what's happening for you too. Well, that's why you were so weird. You know, when I frowned about something, you thought I meant you. Oh. Yeah. That's kind of a big thing. We're messing around in here. Okay. Anything else? Are we getting time to stop? Okay. Thank you very much. I enjoyed being here with you briefly. I'll come back again. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[57:55]

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