This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Well, we just had that little bit of unsurpassed penetrating dharma that happened in the courtyard. Is there anyone here who didn't hear it? No. Good. Lucky for all of us. I was sitting in my room up by the laundry area trying to think of a Tassajara story to tell you, and then one happened. Luckily. Yeah. I wanted to tonight bring up one of my favorite quotes from Dogen. It's in the... Only a Buddha and a Buddha, and Greg asked me to talk about it, which was also lucky because I needed something to talk about, and it is one of my favorite ones, and it's so appropriate for this time of year.

[01:11]

So let me read it to you. Long ago, a monk asked an old master, When hundreds, thousands, or myriads of objects all come at once, what can be done? What should be done? Hundreds and thousands and myriads of objects all come at once. What should be done? The reason that it's so appropriate this time of year, you may notice or you may know, is that that's how a lot of Tassajara students are feeling right now. Like hundreds, thousands, myriads, millions, gazillions of objects I don't know why Dogen didn't use the word gazillion. Such a nice word. And so appropriate, so true. Gazillions of objects are coming all at once. What should be done? So it's really appropriate for Tassajara students, but I have a feeling that it's probably how a lot of people are feeling in their lives.

[02:13]

Tassajara students think they're tired, but when the guests come here, like maybe... This woman is in the room. I will not use her name, but she told me she felt really bad because she came to Tassajara and she went to sleep. And I said, that's exactly what most guests do these days. These days, they come to Tassajara, maybe they go to a meal, they go to their room, and they sit down for a few minutes to read a book. Why? Because in their lives, hundreds, thousands, myriads of objects are coming all at once. out there in the world. And those of you who are brave enough to come this early in the guest season and experience with us the beginning of this wonderful event where we are all feeling like you are objects coming at us. Thank you. Thank you for training us and being patient with us and we're being patient with you too.

[03:20]

So that's the question. What should be done when hundreds, thousands, myriads, millions, gazillions of objects come all at once? And the answer is, the master replied, don't try to control them. Right. Oh, yeah. Don't try to control them. Then Dogen goes on to say, what he means is that whatever way objects come, do not try to change them. Whatever comes is not objects at all, but it is the Buddha Dharma. I want to finish reading this to you, and then I'll come back to that. Do not understand the Master's reply as merely a brilliant admonition, but realize that it is the truth. Even if you try to control what comes, It cannot be controlled. This is kind of like the... There's several punchlines here or important statements.

[04:32]

This one is the one that we know but we don't want to hear again. It can't be controlled. Whether you think you can find the way to control them. And one of the tricky or... wholeness parts of this is that some of the objects are coming from the outside but a lot of the objects are coming from the inside right so they can't be controlled either hundreds thousands myriads of objects cannot be controlled so get used to it but then what he's actually talking about is practice you know so this line about whatever comes is not objects at all, but is the Buddha Dharma. It's very interesting. What does that mean that these objects that are coming at us from the outside and from the inside, you know, the server is a little rude to you, or the, hi, come on in.

[05:47]

Or the guests are coming. Or the beds are not made. Or the vegetables didn't come. All those objects not only can't be controlled, but somehow they are Buddha Dharma. And the emotions that arise around those things and the thoughts that arise around those things, the panic, the blaming, the hope, the fears. They're Buddha Dharma. What does that mean? Well, I think we would, I say, I think you would say, if they're Buddha Dharma, that means they are somehow the teaching in how to be free, how to be liberated. So somehow, embedded in these things that are coming at us, is the teaching of how to live in a free way.

[06:50]

So, I mean, he says, don't try to control them, but that's not really much of a clue about how do you... I mean, that's big, right? If we can stop trying to control them, maybe that's enough. In fact, there's a whole Dogen piece that... that is named refrain from, refrain from, refrain from. And he says over and over again, refrain from this, refrain from that, refrain from, you know, we don't talk about it so much, but really that's a pretty amazing teaching. You know, when you think how much on automatic we are, how much we're going on our habitual ways of trying to get through life, you know, trying to control. ourselves, certainly, and really, if we're honest about it, basically everything. If only I could control everything. To just refrain from doing what we usually do would clear out a lot of our life.

[08:02]

Our life might suddenly be a lot more simple. I don't know. What would we even do if we didn't try to control things? There's another place where Dogen gives us a little more positive hint, I think, in the Genjo Koan, where he says, let's see, to carry yourself forward and experience myriad things is delusion. So we would think, this is what we're supposed to do, right? Experience these myriad things. They're coming forward. We're not trying to control them. We're just experiencing them. He says that's delusion. That myriad things come forth and experience themselves is enlightenment or is liberation. So, now what would that mean? If myriad things are coming forward and experience themselves, but it's me, it's you, it's not like they're out there.

[09:06]

They may also, like that tree, you know? That tree had a life of its own. You know, it was up there standing up. We don't know what was going on with it. You know, did it have any premonition about it? It probably started to tip before we noticed it. So it was having its own life, like all the myriad Buddha dharmas that are going on. But when it gets to me, I experience it in my way. You know, some people were standing pretty close close to that side of the mountain in the courtyard. Thank goodness it was on the other side of the mountain. I mean, the other side of the creek, not on this side of the creek. We've had a number of trees fall on this side of the creek, and they've all, so far, missed things. People and buildings. There was one, a big part of this tree that's above the...

[10:09]

up by the birdhouse. It was a huge tree until the 2008 fire. We think the base of a yucca plant rolled down the hill and lodged underneath in that tree and actually burnt the birdhouse. What we call that little cabin that's up there, we call it the birdhouse. And there was another one up there before, and it lodged underneath the deck of that. and burnt that cabin up and burned a big part of the tree. And then twice after that, big pieces of that tree fell off. And one of them was right at evening service time. Greg and I had just left the Zendo. We'd leave before other people, and we walked out, and we started down the path. And other people were coming out of the Zendo, and this huge sound like that happened. And we turned around, and a big portion of the tree had fallen into the work circle. where often we have vehicles parked or people are standing there.

[11:14]

Maybe the people could have run like some people did tonight, you know, run away from the sound. But a vehicle would have just been there underneath that tree, and it wasn't. Thank you, trees, or whoever is in charge of where trees fall. So in me or in you... these Buddha dharmas, these teachings for how to be liberated, experience themselves. How does that happen? How does myriad vegetables to be chopped before the next meal can be cooked experience itself in you? In some of you. That doesn't. You don't. Experience that, hopefully, because you're supposed to be here having a vacation. So you should not know that the vegetables aren't chopped yet for your next meal.

[12:15]

So that's good. That's how it experiences itself in you. Having a bath, wonderful time, great. But for some other people, those vegetables sitting there and chopped are experiencing you know like a little tension so how do we let you know let that not try to control it let it be and somehow find out how does one live a liberated life in the midst of that that's what we're that's what we're doing that's what we're doing here we're trying to see what is what is it if I don't just like Try to control it, namely because it's so uncomfortable. I want to get away from this feeling of the vegetables not being chopped yet. I have to do something. I have to do something. And it doesn't mean that you won't do anything.

[13:20]

You know, you may run from the kitchen looking for some of your friends to help chop vegetables. Lauren. Or you may just chop faster. Or you may chop slower because it's so intense. You just have to chop. Slowly. You know, I think, as I said to the retreat today, there's some suffering as a human being that is not optional, that we just have. We have suffering because we have a body and because that body gets... you know gets old gets hurt gets crooked in some way and that hurts and also we have a mind which has thoughts and has emotion or wherever we have emotions in our body mind some of those are painful to know if we lose something

[14:33]

somebody who's close to us, maybe something too, but somebody who's close to us, there's a real visceral pain that probably is not optional. It's like some part of you is gone and there's a hole there. But a lot of our suffering is optional. And I think that a whole lot of it comes from not being able to stand to have the unpleasant feelings that we're having. We're having some unpleasant feeling. We're having some anxiety. We're having some nervousness about various things. We're having some sadness. We're having some anger. We're having some lust. We're having lots of feelings that are hard to feel. especially you know if you have some young feelings that you've had before and now they come back it's hard to be there for those feelings hard to let them just be Buddha Dharma just teach you whatever it is they're trying to teach you let them have their place instead we usually

[16:01]

do whatever we have habitually done to get away from our feelings. And that's one of the things that's really good about this life together. We can start to notice what is my way of getting away from suffering that actually causes more suffering. What do I do when I'm uncomfortable, and what's the effect of that? Again, I don't think that thinking it out is so important, although we do have minds and they do like to be involved, and so it's good to give them something healthy to think about. But it's not that that will make us understand it. It's more like we need to feel it, like feel, what do I do when an uncomfortable feeling happens that I don't want to have, I'm afraid to have, I'm incapable of having yet. It's not just that I don't want to and if I decide I will, I can't.

[17:04]

Sometimes it takes some preparation for actually having that feeling. We actually have to have the opportunity to have it several times before we can stand to have it. And maybe we have to sit zazen for a while and settle in some way, develop a base of... Develop again sounds like I'm doing it, but I think it's more like... You know, that image of you take a glass of muddy water and you set it down, and when it sits there for a while, the dirt in it can settle to the bottom, and that can become your base of faith. Your little dirty self can settle in there, and then you can know I'm sitting here in this dirt, this lotus in muddy water, lotus in mud, sitting there. And then it's easier to have those, just have them as feelings, not as the truth, but just, okay, wow.

[18:09]

And some of them can be pretty big. Sometimes you can't even sit there and have them. You actually have to lay down and have them. Just lay down and have that feeling. Or you may need to be walking. to actually use up enough energy, you can have that feeling. If you can have it as a feeling, and then if, in fact, you do live through it, your body knows that you can live through it, which is something it really doesn't know before. Anyway, in my experience, something in me says, if I have that feeling, I'm going to die. I'm going to die. fall into that feeling and drown and never get out. But then sometimes I manage to like, wait a minute, here it comes. Okay, I'm going to face it. I'm going to sit here still or walk or lay down and have it.

[19:12]

And then you'll have to see for yourself. But for me, basically when I've been able to do that, it happens. I have a feeling. Big deal. I have a feeling. It's not pleasant. It's not a feeling that I like. I think my worst one that I've had so far, you know, I haven't had, my parents have died, but my children haven't died, my husband hasn't died, and I haven't died. And so worse may be to come, probably. Worse is to come. But so far for me, the sort of worst feeling is what I call it, it's like not, you know, it could have so many names, but it's basically being rejected by someone that I care about. You know, it's like, it isn't so much the rejection, I don't feel it as rejection, I feel it as not being okay.

[20:18]

You know, really invalidation that's It's like not an okay person, not an okay life. Yuck. And it can come, you know, the smallest things can set that off. It has to be somebody that I really care what they think, but then if they look at me the wrong way, it has happened. But once I, I don't know, Once I was forced, actually, I was forced to feel it because I couldn't get away from it. That was the clue to me, like, oh, okay, I can have this feeling and I don't die. And actually, once I've had the feeling, it has a little less power. For me, it's not that it didn't ever come again, but it was that it was more familiar.

[21:22]

It was something that I recognized. so okay here it is again it this is this Buddha Dharma is trying to teach me again trying to teach me that it isn't all-powerful that it is changing that it is connected you know it's it's connected to other things And it was a very freeing thing to learn that about these feelings that I really didn't want to have. So to have... Yeah. Is that what Dogen meant by to carry the self forward and experience myriad things as delusion, that myriad things come forth and experience themselves as awakening?

[22:22]

I'm not totally sure, but there is a feeling of letting it be itself. Letting it have its life. Not like me, I'm now going to have this feeling. It's more like there's a feeling that's an object, you know, it's an organic thing, a Buddha Dharma, a teaching, and it's got some life of its own. some duration, some beginning, some ending, some intensity that is not up to me. It's not mine to control. But it's very connected to me. It's in me. Let it be. And to do that and then to be able to do that with other beings, other people, is... Very freeing, very freeing means we can live and die in whatever circumstances we have to live and die in.

[23:31]

Let's see. Do any of you have any questions or statements? suddenly for you you're speechless yes yes yes well you know you don't have to be sitting down for it usually you know like you say most things For me, don't come up in zazen. They come up in interactions or something. Sometimes you can just be there, just stop and be there and let it happen. Sometimes you can't do that. Sometimes you're in the midst of doing something that's complicated enough or interactive enough that you can't actually stop.

[24:48]

But if you're in a situation... especially like an interactive situation, that you feel like, oh, this is one of those times I should actually pay attention to this and stop. And what's more, if I don't, it's making the interaction worse. And this happens especially with people that we're close to, where we get into real habitual patterns that we can see, oh, this is not, you know, I've done this before, and it didn't go anyplace good. and I don't know what else to do, then I would say just stop. If it's somebody that, you know, hopefully can understand that, just do something different than you've done in the past. Like if you're standing up, sit down. If you're sitting down, turn around. I was telling the group today that... One practice period, I was sitting in a stone office, which was in its winter state, which only means, you know, it had about two tables in there with benches around them.

[25:55]

And I was sitting there with the director at the time, who is a brilliant young man, but he's kind of shy and doesn't really like conflict and all. And somebody came into the office with some problem to talk to the director about. And they came up to him and they started, you know, giving a lot of energy about what was ever going on. And I was standing over in the corner, and I knew he was not enjoying this. And he listened for a little while, and then he said, just a minute. And then he turned around and just turned away from the person and just sat there for a little bit. And then he turned around and he said, yes. And it changed the whole thing. It was amazing to see. I was just standing over the corner watching, like, wow, that was great. You know, the person was like, wow, okay. And they started over, but it really changed the energy of it, you know, to have the presence to do that, which I think came from, having watched him be director, I think came from experience.

[27:08]

Like, he's like, I need something. to do different than just sit there and take it all you know so yeah if it occurs to you if you can possibly find just a little space and you may not be able to go through the whole you know whatever the life of that Buddha Dharma is but that's okay it's you know if it's real for you if it's you know it's part of you coming forward right so it's there it'll come back And maybe, you know, later when you've got some time, you can go to your room and, you know, it might come back then. It might be like, oh, what was happening there? Oh, yeah. So it's, yeah. Thank you. Yes. Yes. to alleviate suffering by building power for feelings.

[28:16]

So is it worth looking into where the feelings are coming from? Where they're coming from, like the history of them? Just the sources. Do you mean the source like an upset stomach or the source like in the past my father yelled at me or something like that? Or any of that? I think it's... Like I said, we do have minds, and they like to be involved. And it's very satisfying to our mind to recognize, oh, that's... There was a young man here years and years ago who used to get really upset at various times, just like go off. It's like he was falling off a cliff. happy and then like yelling at somebody. And after some time, he realized that they were saying this phrase, random people were saying this phrase that his father had said to him in some unhappy way.

[29:23]

I don't remember what it was, but it was amazing for him to realize that's what he was doing. So there are times when it's It certainly is satisfying to see where they come from, but I don't think that's the crucial part about breaking the cycle. I think the crucial part is to actually let yourself have the internal experience that we don't want to have. Like for him, what he was feeling when he was young, when his father yelled at him, it isn't enough to just know, oh, that's where it came from. Because that feeling, which is very real when it comes up, is still coming up. So I think the crucial thing is to actually let the feeling have its life. Let the Buddha Dharma have its say.

[30:26]

I do think the feelings are partially coming from a certain perspective, but I don't think that the mental work of shifting our perspective is enough. I mean, it's got to be a body experience. That's what I think. But there are a lot of different practices out there in the world, and a lot of them work on perspective, and I think that's a good thing. But I still think the hardest thing for us is actually living through it. Thank you. Anything else? But we only have a few minutes. experience, would you say it's better to actually experience it then or to try to go hold on to it and then experience it later?

[31:39]

And then kind of, you know, calmer in your reaction? Yeah. You know, I don't think there's an easy answer for that or a general answer for that. A lot depends on the situation who the other person is, what your relationship with them is, how intense the reaction is. I do want to say, just as you started to talk and following your question, I think to try to make room for these experiences does not mean that we don't do anything. It doesn't mean that we become still and just sit there for anything. This is not... passive thing. There are times when a feeling comes up and the situation is such that actually you should just run. You should go as quickly as you can from that situation.

[32:41]

This teaching does not mean you sit there calmly while somebody does you harm. That's not what it means. How to know when that happens? There's not a general answer. If we are present, trying to be present, and trying to cause less suffering for ourselves and others, we make our best guess. And mostly, I don't think it really, we're not deciding. You know, it's interesting how much do we actually decide something. I think if you watch, you will find that you... We think we're deciding a lot. We work a lot on deciding things. But I think the actual living is not so much deciding. It's like things are happening and we're responding. We're very alive, responsive beings. And that's the way things are happening. And then, you know, in the small moments, we're thinking about what should we do.

[33:45]

And then we think about it and think about it and think about it. But in the meantime, we're doing things. that are much more organic than that. We should stop. Thank you very much. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[34:20]

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