This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good evening. Francis said I was early to the Han to meet him over by the Han. And I said, because when I put on these robes, I had to run out of my room. It was so hot. And I ran out so fast that I forgot my Zagu. Thank you, Jeremy. So a few years ago, I was leading a workshop in Boise, Idaho. It wasn't so much a workshop as a sitting. Mostly we were sitting in Zazen, but I was giving lectures. And then we would eat lunch in the park at lunchtime. One day, is this too loud?

[01:00]

It's a little loud. One day, while we were having lunch in the park, actually in Boise, Idaho, there were a lot of different kinds of Buddhists. It was kind of surprising, but a different kind of Buddhist came along and said, what are you doing? We said, we're doing a sitting. She said, what are you studying? And I had this moment of like, ugh. Nothing. I don't know how to study anything. I'm just, you know, talking. It's not... But one of the people who was in the retreat just said, we're studying the self. I was like, yes, yay. Thank you, thank you. We're studying the self. And in fact, you know, Dogen says studying Buddhism is studying the self. That's the whole study of Buddhism is to study the self. And this studying of the self is, it's not like some kind of studying that we do.

[02:06]

You know, it's not like picking up a book and reading about the self. And it isn't like, some of it might be looking at yourself in a similar way, like, what is that? But a lot of it is more like, as Okamura sensei says, it's more like a baby eagle. learning to fly, or a child learning to walk. It's a full-body experience. It's not so much figuring out how do I walk or how do I fly. It's more like you stretch your wings and you flap them a little bit and you have an experience. So in this studying of the self, you have an experience of yourself, which of course we're doing all the time, but it's done with some more... attention and some more subtleness. When we sit down in zazen, even the very first time, no matter what we think we're doing, part of what we're doing is sitting down to experience ourself, just to see what's it like to be this being.

[03:14]

One way of looking at... What does it mean to study the self is to look at some different ways we have of interacting with our self or our idea of our self. So one kind of normal way of interacting with our self is to try to decide which kind of self do I want to be and then try to figure out how do I make myself into that. So, you know, actually a big portion of our life is spent some version of that. Like, you know, what do I want to do? And where do I want to go to college? What do I want to study? What kind of job do I want to have? Do I want to be in a relationship? What kind of person do I want to be in? Oh, I don't like that part of myself. I need to get rid of that. Or there's some kind of psychological thing that happens there. So I have to get to the bottom of it and change it and make it so that I don't get so upset when people say that to me or, you know, we spend a lot of time doing that. And, um,

[04:21]

Dogen also says actually that kind of relating with ourself is delusion it isn't actually possible to do any of that it isn't possible to like take ourself and make ourself into something else and you may have experienced trying to do that and being a little frustrated with it and sometimes you know it might look like you succeed for a while Like, you know, you might make yourself into a lawyer or a wife or, you know, but it's never quite that simple, right? Like there's a lot of other selfness that keeps popping up and confusing us. So there's a suggestion from Dogen again that to, instead of deciding what kind of self we want to be and then proceeding, making ourselves, you know, going out and meeting the world as that self, that we settle down and see when things come to us, what kind of self do we become?

[05:33]

So in a way, we're kind of like sitting there quietly waiting for something to happen. And then when we see our response, we know who we are. Of course, it's never quite that simple because even while we're sitting there already, we're being made by our chair, or the rock, or the cushion that we're sitting on, and by the air that we're breathing. We're already having a response to things, so that's part of this self that we are is a very flowing, moving thing. We can't exactly keep up with it and say, oh, this is myself, or this is myself, but we can have this experience of it. It won't be a full experience. It won't be like every... little response that we have to anything. We'll be able to say that's what it is, but we are actually responding to things. We are this self, not a self, but this moving, flowing self that's happening, and it's possible to be kind of relaxed with that, be pretty present with it, be pretty willing.

[06:52]

embody that self and when we do that it's a tremendous relief you know the this self that we have to make and that has to be all right you know has to fit in somehow and do whatever you know feats we decided to do you know support us or make us happy or make other people love us it has to do all those feats and to you know that self or that attempt at a self that we're carrying around is a huge burden. So to put that one down and actually sit down and say, okay, what selves am I? Can I be there for the selves that I am is a huge relief and very freeing. But it also can be kind of frustrating or maybe even frightening to the part of us who feels like it's supposed to be able to say what's going on or even be able to control what's going on, be in charge of what's going on.

[08:01]

So that part gets a little nervous if someone starts saying, oh, just sit down and relax. It's like, wait a minute. This sounds very out of control. Especially what if one of the, it's not just like the air comes and makes us or your friend comes up and says, hi, how are you? And then a very nice self comes forward that says, oh, I was feeling a little sad today, but thank you for being my friend. Sometimes some people come up to us and they say something in that tone of voice that turns us into a six-year-old being yelled at by our mother or a 14-year-old being, anyway, you get the idea. Various things come in and some self responds that is not what we would have chosen. So there can be some fear and some frustration in this also.

[09:08]

There's a very interesting passage in one of the Buddhist sutras. It's the Flower Ornament Sutra that says... can hardly believe it says this but it does say it the fundamental affliction of ignorance is itself the in the immutable knowledge of the Buddhas says immutable imagine that the fundamental affliction of ignorance is self is the immutable knowledge of the Buddhas And then in the 37th story in the Soto Zen, that's the kind of Zen we do here, there's a Soto Zen book of koans called the Book of Serenity. And the 37th story in there is about this text. The fundamental affliction of ignorance is the immutable knowledge of the Buddhas.

[10:16]

And it gives an example. It actually gives two examples of this, which are almost the same story. it's just a little simple thing where a teacher calls to one of them he calls to a monk and one of them he calls to a boy and in one of them he says hey you and in the other one he says his name and in each one of them the monk or the boy turns around and you know like responds he's like yeah me so and then it says that response is the immutable knowledge of the buddhas it's like The monk, the boy, and we do know who we are. We actually know the self. Somebody says, hey, you, and you go, me? Yeah, okay. Then this teacher says to them, one he says, what is it? And the other he says, what is your Buddha nature?

[11:19]

And to both of these questions, The monk and the boy look really confused and turn away and walk away, much as we might. What is it? Okay, goodbye. This is the fundamental affliction of ignorance. It's not just any old ignorance. It's fundamental ignorance, and I think it fits right in with this flowing self, which is part of reality. self that you know if we imagine sitting there quietly and something coming along and affecting us and we have a response that's self that's totally integrated with everything that's happening that's responsive that we actually know we are actually are the response we are responding to the universe We know it. It's the immutable knowledge of the Buddhists.

[12:25]

It's the immutable knowledge of the universe. It's how this particular human being responds to that particular factor in these particular circumstances. And we can't get a hold of it. We can't say, oh, it's this. Or, oh, this is what happened. We can say things about it. We can say things about almost anything. But we can't ever say them completely. We can't. And partly because they're so complex and partly because it's still moving. It's flowing so, not exactly rapidly, but completely. That there's no way to... to get a hold of it, and yet we are in the middle of it. We are the knowledge of it. And again, that possibility of settling in that, of being willing to be that person, so there's willingness, and there also is something like capacity.

[13:47]

which I think has more capacity to do that, capability of doing that, ability to do that, which I think has more to do with trust than will. It's a scary thing because we're not sure who's going to come out. And we've seen some of what comes out, and it doesn't seem like it's so good. It looks like it's painful and... suffering to ourselves and to others so we need some experience of is it really okay to just be this knowledge this responsive knowledge and that's again I think Part of what happens in Zazen is some simplifying of what's going on so we can watch our response and get more familiar with it.

[14:55]

Even though it's flowing and changing, luckily for us, there's a lot of habits going on. So there's a lot of repeating or very similar responses to things so that we can get familiar with how this body-mind responds and we can... have some understanding of the root of it and is it really evil? Or is there something understandable about how when somebody sounds like my third grade teacher and I have this response, where that's coming from in me? Again, that's kind of a psychological way. We don't have to talk about it in a psychological way. It can also be a much more physical way. Like, is there... Is there some sense to the tightening that happens when that same voice calls to me? And to find out, is that okay, we actually have to let it happen.

[16:04]

It's not something that we can think out. Again, it's not studying the self like sitting down and reading a book about it or sitting down and thinking out, how might that be? It really is like experiencing, especially the things that we don't feel so trusting of. Our response is that we don't feel so trusting of to actually experience them and get a sense of how does this fit? How is this part of learning to fly? Or... So it takes some time, it takes some quietness, it takes some courage, but again, not exactly courage or trust that we talk ourselves into, but more that arises from the capacity, I believe, arises from the capacity to stay there.

[17:07]

That mostly, when those things come up, we... we have a habitual way of saying, no, I can't be that person, therefore I have to get out of this situation somehow. I either have to run away from it or I have to yell at this person so they stop doing that, or we have our different ways of stopping those responses. And to have, again, the capacity to stay there a little longer, I... think what we find out is that they aren't nearly as harmful when we aren't doing our habit way of getting away from them. In this koan, there's a poem that goes along with it that says... What does it say? I've got it right here. One call and he turns his head.

[18:12]

Do you know the self or not? Vaguely, like the moon through ivy, a crescent at that. One call and I turn my head. Do I know the self or not? Vaguely, like a moon through ivy and a crescent at that. The full moon is, you know, kind of represents enlightenment. in Buddhism, in Buddhist poetry. So a crescent symbolizes not quite enlightenment. It symbolizes a regular, everyday human mind. And then there's a whole section about, well, when there's a full moon, where does the crescent moon go? And when there's a crescent moon, where does the full moon go? Essentially saying this crescent moon is the same as a full moon, but for now, it's a crescent. You know, it's not full enlightenment, it's an everyday human mind, heart.

[19:17]

So, you know, do I know the self or not? Vaguely, like a moon through ivy and a crescent at that. And yet, somehow that knowledge is... the immutable knowledge of the Buddhas. It's the only kind of knowledge we can have. There's no way that we can actually get it, get the whole thing, have the whole reality, and be able to lay it out for whoever we want to impress, ourselves or somebody else. The most accurate relationship with it is vaguely like a moon through ivy. That's all really the equipment we have. to receive the universe. And at the same time, we are totally responding to it. We're living in it. We're part of it. And there is the possibility of our actually relaxing and resting in that and being able to not mess up our response, be our most accurate response, not mess it up or move away from it with fear.

[20:33]

So I'm wondering if you have any thoughts or questions about this kind of study of the self or about anything else for that matter. Pardon? Yes. Well, I think that's what we were just talking about. This only being able to see a crescent or not really knowing... how we're responding or how we're going to respond or how the other person's going to respond is ignorance. And yet, it fits. Knowledge of the Buddhas. That's what it says. I'm just using the text. Maybe.

[21:37]

Could it? Maybe. I don't know. I don't think that's what it means, but maybe. I think it means we, too, are Buddhas, and we do have ignorance, a fundamental affliction of ignorance, and yet that's how human Buddhas are. a few more minutes if you have anything. Yes, Eric. I'm very much a kind of, I should have said this, I should have been a person. Every time I have an encounter I sort of think of like the worst possible thing I could have said to somebody and it's like why wasn't I that scathing or then I also say well why wasn't I that compassionate or all these different things and I wonder how

[22:43]

important it is to do all of those things in turn or whether almost the most important thing is the study that that allows for or whether there's some like middle sort of balance. I should be striking between all these different possible reactions that I'm having that are all, in some sense, honest. Do all of these things in turn? Would it be accurate for me to say it has zero implements to actually do them in turn? I mean, you're thinking them, right? But you didn't do them. And who knows whether you'll do them next time or not. And you probably definitely won't do them in turn. So... yeah, that's totally fine that you are not doing them. And the fact that you're thinking them is also fine as long as you don't believe it too much.

[23:49]

Because, you know, by that time you're way on to the next thing. The next person's there and you could go on questioning yourself about that too if you have time. But luckily, mostly you don't care too much. I mean, it's really only certain ones that you care enough about to put that kind of energy into, which is lucky because otherwise you should never get anywhere. And were you asking something else besides that? Not really, no. Thank you. That's great. Yeah, we definitely... I mean, that's part of what I was talking about. That's part of thinking I need to be... making myself. And it's really deep in us. It's not just like a little idea we have. It's something that we were, our parents who loved us said to us, oh, you're so wonderful. What are you going to be when you grow up?

[24:53]

Clunk. Oh, yeah, what am I going to be when I grow up? Yes, John. Thinking about this, I think one thing I definitely get caught on is, let's say someone comes up to me and I have a reaction towards them that's kind of hostile. I'll have that reaction, but in some way I also know that's a universe that I just treated pretty terribly. So, I guess what I'm saying is there seems like there is a feeling of knowing I could Or a sense of like, I could be treating the world better than I am right now. Right. That is sort of like, I could be different than I am. Yes. But at the same time, I'm not. And so like, to a certain extent, thinking that can become impressive towards myself. Yes. But also not thinking it seems impressive towards everyone else.

[25:56]

Or like, also, I can't not think it, because I feel like I know that it's real, too. Well... I think if you are close enough to yourself when this person approaches you and you start having some response that leads you to act, how did you say, oppressive or something? Something not loving. Something not loving toward them. That if you're loving enough to yourself, meaning just there with yourself, and letting yourself be, have whatever feeling you have, actually you won't have to just be unloving to them. I mean, normally we do that pretty, we don't even think about it so much often. It's like our response comes out pretty immediately. But I think it's mostly, and you should check this out for yourself. I'm not telling you to believe this, but I believe it.

[26:57]

I've seen it in myself. and in other people. And I think, I would even say, I think that most, or I would say maybe even all, of the optional suffering in the world comes from our not being willing to stay with who we are at that moment. Not being willing, not being able. That like, somebody comes up and for whatever reason, we get a yucky feeling and we don't want to have it. So we do something. And I think that's where... I think if we just had the yucky feeling, it wouldn't cause optional suffering. It might not be pleasant. And you might say something to the person, or you might walk away, but it wouldn't have to be this, like, I can't have this. That I think leads to most of our... So it's...

[27:58]

You are going to change. You are going to be different at different times. But how do you actually get there? I think the most accurate play, the way to respond to the universe the most accurately is to get as close to yourself as you can and to notice when you don't want it to be that way. Try that out. Once I was in a class, some of you have heard this probably hundreds of times, but I was in a class with Reb Anderson. He was doing on the Abhi Dharma, I think. And for some reason, he said something like this. He said, if you're angry, if you just feel the anger, it won't be harmful. You just feel it. And I was sitting next to Melody Haller, Paul's ex-wife, who had small children the same age as my small children, who were about three and one at the time.

[29:10]

And I was like, no way. When I'm angry at them, I don't want to feel it. It's dangerous. And she was feeling the same thing. And so she raised her hand and said, no way. I don't want to kill my kids. Thank you. I'd rather just stuff my anger. And he said, well, I think you should try it. If you just feel your anger, They may not even see it, or they may see a little smoke coming out of your ears, he said. And we're like, no, no, no. But the next morning, as I was trying to get my one- and three-year-old dress so I could go to work, and the three-year-old was ripping her clothes off faster than I could get them on, the one-year-old, I got really angry. And she was in the other room, so I thought, okay, I'm just going to feel this. And I sat there, and I was so... angry at her I hated her so much and within you know a few seconds it was like I also it turned into like sympathy for this poor little girl whose mother hated her so much it was so interesting you know it was like one turned right into the other it was very interesting you know it wasn't like I thought that out it was just like it just so I don't know you know try it yourself see what happens

[30:27]

We have room for a couple more if there is anything. Yes. You know, some amount of the painful experience probably means we haven't actually felt the vulnerableness of it. So I think we keep sort of bringing them back, partly just mentally, but sometimes we even recreate whole situations again and again and again. I think so that we can actually acknowledge or love ourselves, be there through it. And often it's done at kind of a surface level.

[31:33]

It's just like, I'll just repeat this again so I can kind of feel it again. And it seems so neurotic, you know, just like we're having to scratch an itch or, you know, pull the scab off or something. But it's done at this level where it doesn't actually get down to the vulnerable parts of it. And more will, like, repeat again how somebody was at fault. either ourselves or another person. And then they did this, and then they did this, and then they did this. So we start feeling worse and worse and worse. And I think, in a funny way, all of that is a way to get away from the feeling. It's like we start to have some feeling that brings back this painful experience. It's there, kind of like a bruise. And something touches it, and we start to have that. And then... We very quickly, without even knowing it, we kind of ask, why am I feeling bad? Oh, yeah. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's a way to get away from the feeling that makes us feel it again.

[32:37]

So, again, I think to, you know, try to not be too distracted by the story and just, like, find the bruise and sit there with it. Sometimes they actually go away. Sometimes they don't. But they can get less... they can get more familiar in a way that we know, okay, that's just that again. Our feeling, in some ways, it's not like that's just that again. It's more like, if I go there, I'm going to die. So I'm not going to go there. I'm going to think about why it shouldn't have happened or something. But if we're there with it deeply enough, even if it doesn't go away, it can get to be like, okay, I know this one. It's not... painful or frightening in the same way. Okay, we need to stop. Thank you all very much. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center.

[33:43]

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