This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Today we're going to be talking about Preceptor De Shang and really just that those paragraphs about fish and preceptor durshang. And I, I've, this story was, or a series of koans was brought up during Rohatsu Sesshin, last Rohatsu Sesshin at Tenshin Roshi led at Green Gulch. And the meditation instruction within the koan, he kind of followed the stream back to the source and down to the ocean.

[01:08]

He followed these different teachers and how they presented their teaching and passed it on and how that teacher used it, presented it, referred back to their own teacher, and you can track it in these koans. I thought I would introduce some of that material just to give us a kind of a round picture of what came before Dogen pulling out this particular story for the Mountains and Waters Sutra. He actually, it turns out, really must have loved this story. He cites it like seven or eight times in the extensive record in little places bigger and smaller, you know, references to it. And then there's this poem that, before studying San Sui Kyo, I had memorized, and it's a poem by Dogen called On a Portrait of Myself.

[02:17]

And in reading it, I realized it references the same story of Dershang, the boat man. same kind of images. And it was one of the koans he collected in his collection of 300 koans. So he refers to it and then plunks it right in the middle of San Suikyo. And also I realized that Suzuki Roshi, I think, was referencing this in an interchange that he had with a student years and years ago, which I'll relate to you, which I've always found very, very moving. And I always thought, you know, where did Suzuki Roshi come up with something like that to say to this person? And I think I know enough. I mean, I'm venturing to guess. Yeah. So... So let's begin.

[03:22]

The... Maybe I'll read the paragraph first, and then as we've been doing, you know, go through it slowly. And I've found if I relax my mind and not try to get what he's saying, I feel something different than if I'm trying to get it. And driving down to Tassajara, there was... I think it was a review of a book by a man whose name I can't remember, but he did a big study on decision-making. Maybe some of you have read the book. I think he went shopping at a big supermarket, was supposed to get dried cereal or something. His wife sent him to the store to get some dried cereal. And the array of dried cereals was so... overpowering that he found that his mind, he couldn't choose anything.

[04:24]

He just had to walk out. He was, like, overcome. And then he, being a neuroscientist or whatever he was, he studied what that is when we have a huge selection and what happens to us and how difficult it is. And now he's done a book on creativity and what I... heard was, and I'm sure many of you know this already and practice this, which is if we're tense and like trying to understand something and I'm going to sit here until I get this and work on this problem and stay on my computer screen until I get it, we'll just get ourselves into a fit. But if we go away, go for a walk, have dinner, take a nap, you know, it's like, oh, answer to the problem or some kind of resolution. So he's studying what happens in the brain in relaxed state in terms of creativity.

[05:28]

So this paragraph, I felt like this is what I need. I need to just relax with this because if I try to get it, I'm in trouble. So this is the paragraph. Again, since ancient times, wise people men, wise people, and sages have also lived by the water. When they live by the water, they hook fish, or they hook people, or they hook the way. These are all water styles of old, and going further, there must be hooking the self, hooking the hook, being hooked by the hook, and being hooked by the way. So we've been looking at, in these last days, the mountain style, going into the mountains and expressing the mountain way of life and the mountain style of life, and now he's having us look at the water way of life or the water style of life, those who live by the water.

[06:36]

But I really think it's the same entry into our inconceivable life and disappearing into it as a, but by the water. And I was remembering this book, some of you may know it, that was out in the 70s, maybe even the 60s called, I think it was G.U. Kennett, Selling Water by the River. And I thought that was such a mysterious title, you know, Selling Water by the River. But I think it's this, it's a similar, You already have plenty of water. Why are we selling it? And you could imagine selling water in the desert or something, but by the river? What do you need to sell water for? You can just take it at your... It's at your disposal. But unless somebody's selling it, you maybe don't even notice that you need the water or a water person.

[07:39]

So wise people... and sages have also lived by the water. And when they live by the water, this says hook fish. And the different translations of this paragraph I thought I'd cause is, on the other hand, from ancient times, wise people and sages have often lived on water. When they live on water, they catch fish, catch human beings, catch the way. For a long time, these have been elegant activities on water. Furthermore, there is catching the self, catching, catching, being caught by catching, and being caught by the way. And Cleary's is very, very similar. Since ancient times, there have occasionally been sages and saints who live on the water.

[08:43]

While living on the water, they have caught fish, they have caught people, they have caught the way. All of these are ancient traditions of life on the water. Advancing further, there should be catching oneself, there should be catching, catching, there should be being caught by catching, there should be being caught by the way. what's being expressed here in a way that we can't necessarily grasp, but we get a feeling for, the feeling I get is this is someone, this is a wise person, this is our compassionate teacher, trying to express non-dualistic understanding of living out our life and practicing together and meeting each other and how to say what's unsayable, what's not able to be said.

[09:58]

So he uses words. He uses a wedge to get out another wedge. He uses these words in a way that we don't even understand what he's doing as he turns and flips and And any time we think, oh, I get it, then he flips it another time. And we end up, or I end up, just having some sense of ungraspable inconceivability in this activity of the water, living by the water. Water styles, elegant activities. So this kind of fishing, this is a kind of, there's a Zen saying, which actually, Carol Bielfeld, I never knew who said it, but he mentions the teacher, I hope I wrote it down, who, I don't see it, who, there's a particular Zen master who is known for saying, you know, fishing with a straight hook, which Aaron mentioned in...

[11:10]

Shosan ceremony, I think. And Karigiri Roshi brought this up many, many years ago in a lecture during Seshin, where he repeated it over and over and over again, fishing, that our Zazen practice, Shikantaza, is fishing with a straight hook. And, you know, it's baffling, right? If you're going fishing, is that going to help? It's like selling water by the river. It sounds useless. It's useless. So for me it's pointing to we do this fishing, we do or Zen Master Bauche fans himself and practices, but already it's true. The wind permeates everywhere. However, we don't understand the wind is everywhere.

[12:13]

We don't understand we are water, you know, that we are water beings. And so there's this fishing activity. But there's really nothing to catch because you've already... We already are not separate from water or our life. So how can we catch somebody and bring them into something that they're already, already in and swimming along it? So you're not really trying to catch them because there's nothing to catch. But because they don't know, you put it, you throw in a straight hook, you know. had this very funny thought that arose. I had this boyfriend in junior high and high school. We used to play this game where I would pretend I was a fish and he would kind of do this thing with his hands and sort of grab onto my jaw and kind of... It was really fun.

[13:25]

It was like pretending I was being caught by a hook. Anyway, it was a good game. So this is a good game too, to be fishing for one another when actually there's nothing to catch. And there's lots of images of this, the fire boy seeking fire, you know that koan, you know, where the student... basically doesn't go to see the teacher for three years or something. The teacher finally says, brings him in and says, how come, you know, you don't ever come to Doksan? And he says, you know, really, I must tell you, I was, you know, I had full realization under this other teacher, so I don't really need to come. And the teacher says, oh, really, tell me what you realized. And he said, the fire boy seeks for fire. And the teacher just says, No, you really didn't get it, he said.

[14:29]

And he thought, what is this teacher? I'm leaving, you know. So he leaves, and he's walking out the gate and going, and then he says, no, wait a minute, this teacher is really, he's a teacher for all these monks and all these, I don't know, maybe he knows something. So he decides to go back. And so the teacher says... Why don't you ask your question again? And he says, what is the nature of the true self? I think that question. And the teacher says, the fire boy seeks for fire. And then he understood. He was seeking for fire finally. He returned seeking for fire. The fire boy... is seeking for fire, is this fishing with a straight hook. The water people or the fish people fish for the fish people.

[15:34]

So in this non-dualistic you have the act of fishing or catching or hooking, but It's emptiness of giver, receiver, and gift, or emptiness of fisherman, fisherwoman, hook. And what you're fishing, they're all empty. So the hooking and the hook are empty. So your hooking and hook is all one activity. You can't separate them out. So it turns round and round. Hooking the self, hooking the hook, being hooked. So this is... This is how I understand this turning of this. So to live by the water and to hook fish, since the ancient times wise people and sages have lived by the water and hooked fish, this is also a story about transmitting the Dharma, passing on the Dharma.

[16:55]

to hook a fish. So in one of the commentaries it said that there were two kinds of hooks. This is Nishiari Boksan says this. Two kinds of hooks. There's the curved hook and he says the Rinzai school fishes with a curved hook. And the Shikantaza practitioners, the Sokto, they They fish with a straight hook and no bait.

[17:56]

So it says, they don't eat very much, but when they catch a fish, it's a whopper. That's the commentary. and hook the way, hooking the way, passing on the Dharma. Okay, let's see. And going further, there must be hooking the self, hooking the hook. There's... this hooking, this Dharma transmission, hooking a disciple or hooking, as we've seen in the last session, Tozan, you know, where he says to his teacher when he leaves, his teacher says, it's going to be hard to see each other again.

[19:17]

And Tozan says, it's going to be hard not to see each other again. And then when he crosses the stream and sees himself, you know, then he realizes everywhere I go, I encounter it. So this hooking a disciple or hooking is actually hooking oneself because everywhere you go it's actually yourself in terms of the big self. So this one-oneness, what does he say? We must understand in this way to realize suchness. Don't seek outside. Don't look for something outside. Everywhere I go, I encounter it. It now is me. I now am not it. This understanding. So the hooking, when you hook a person, it's just hooking yourself. It's just catching yourself. Everywhere you go, you encounter yourself. And Okamura Roshi says about Uchiyama that he never encouraged people to become priests or had any kind of proselytizing or encouraging.

[20:29]

And Okamura Roshi says he kind of hooked himself. I think he jumped on the hook. He was a fish that just, there was no bait. There was no making it interesting or enticing or anything. hooked himself. And I think, you know, for many people, me included, to come to a place where there was no, you can come if you want, you can leave if you want, there was nobody grabbing hold of you and even, you know, which people feel sometimes as cold, there isn't a big welcome committee, but you are welcome. But also, if it's not There's not affinity there. Please find your affinity. So there's this very spacious, I felt, and nobody was saying, how come you're not doing more? You can come to Zen Center for many, many years without anybody.

[21:33]

There's both sides to that. You can be anonymous and be given lots and lots of space, or you can feel like nobody sees you and nobody cares whether you're there or not. So that might be the shadow of this, but I really felt that's what I needed when I came, is nobody pressuring me, nobody enticing me, or trying to catch me. So you have to want to be caught. You have to swim onto the hook. So this comes back to this non-separation of self and the myriad things and our relationship with the self and the myriad things, our self in practice, our self in another, and meeting another, and understanding another.

[22:46]

So when we carry the self forward into the myriad things, it's delusion. And when the myriad things come forward, that realization and allowing the myriad things to come forward rather than going after them. And we had a discussion about this in the abbots group, the abbots and former abbots and abbesses of Zen Center, just when I was up in the city. I asked people, do you ask people to become ordained priests or do you wait to be asked? This was something I was concerned about for various reasons. And Tenshin Roshi said, told a story that, you know, when Suzuki Roshi was first here, lots of people asked to be ordained without really having an understanding of, you know, they'd been around for about a month, you know, and then they're asking Suzuki Roshi to be ordained.

[23:53]

And from Suzuki Roshi's and training to ask to be ordained, which is traditional. Shakyamuni Buddha people came and asked to be ordained. I think maybe in the beginning he said, come, monk, to a few people, but mostly people asked. That's traditional. But there were all these people asking who really didn't have the depth of understanding about what it was at all. I think at a certain point Suzuki Guru, she said, don't ask. He didn't want anyone to ask him anymore. So then, I don't know exactly what he did, but he maybe approached people that he felt were, had some affinity for priest practice or whatever, rather than people asking. So what's happening nowadays, and I think it's a combination,

[24:56]

But I think it's important to not be fishing, fishing for students, fishing for disciples, fishing for summer practice students, to have that. I think if we make a wonderful practice place, if the mountain or the water is covered in virtue and an excellent spiritual light, you know, or excellence, like we talked about yesterday, the fish will come, you know, they'll want to swim that way. But if we're going out, this doesn't mean that we don't put a notice on the website or, you know, we let people know, but I think it's a sensibility that, um, And those of you who have been in other traditions may have felt someone fishing, you know, fishing you, or a pole or pressure in some way, and maybe very skillfully so that you actually entered and then later felt this wasn't right.

[26:17]

So I think it's a delicate and important point. fishing with a straight hook and not carrying ourselves forward in this way, but allowing things to come. Because really what it is is that the Dharma is what catches us or hooks us, because that's the image we're talking about. It's the power of the Dharma that speaks to us where we want to jump on the hook. It's the sweetness of the... teaching and the power of it and that feeling of the endless quality of nourishment that's there that we want to enter rather than any kind of contrivances that catch us. So this is Sawaki Kodo Roshi

[27:22]

Okamura Roshi puts this in the commentary, this sentence. In Zazen, the self does the self with the self, by the self, for the self. Which is kind of this hooking the self, and the way hooks the hook, and the hook hooks the hooking. How do you describe... you know, zazen sit zazen, which Blanche always talks about. Suzuki Roshi telling her, zazen sit zazen. It's not carrying yourself forward that's doing zazen. Zazen comes forward and does you. Zazen, the self, the big self, does the settling the small self on the big self, by the self, for the self, this one self selfing along this way. So moving on to this next part. Long ago, when the preceptor De Shang suddenly left Yao Shan and went to live by the water, he got the sage of Hua Ting River.

[28:31]

So this particular master, De Shang, was a student of Yakusan Igen Daeyosho, or Yao Shan. Medicine Mountain, Yaoshan, Yakusan, who's in our lineage, Yakusan, Hiken, Daeusho, Ungan, Donjo, Tozan, so it's right within our lineage of Soto, Yaoshan, or Yakusan, Ungan, Donjo, Tozan, so Yaoshan had three very good disciples, Yunnan, or Ungan, Donjo, Dawu, Dogo Enchi, but Dao Wu, and this student, Dershang. And Dershang and his brothers and Dao Wu, Yunyan and Dao Wu, we come upon them in lots of different koans. They're in the koan, what does the Bodhisattva of Great Compassion do with so many?

[29:38]

hands, you know, that's Dao Wu and Yunnan talking together. So they were Dharma brothers and great teachers, and the lineage, you know, was carried on with them. And then Durshang was their, another Dharma brother. And it says, long ago when the preceptor, preceptor is translation of Osho, or it's an ordination master or fully ordained, trained monk. in Sanskrit, upadaya. But Dershang actually wasn't living as a preceptor in a monastery, in a temple. He left Yaoshan. Actually, when Yakusan, Yaoshan, died, he had practiced with Yaoshan for about 30 years, and then he left him. And this is the story. Which I'll, let's see. I think I'll read it from Andy Ferguson, and then there's kind of some commentary here.

[30:48]

So, Schwanza Dershang. Schwanza means boatman, and Dershang was often just known as the boatman or the boat monk. Ooh, I brought my glasses. I get to wear them. So I can see. So he lived 805 to 881. And yeah, he studied with Yashan for 30 years, received Dharma transmission. And then... When he received Dharma transmission from Yaoshan, he intimately practiced the way with Dao Wu and Yun Yang. And then Master Yaoshan died. And when he left, he said to his two Dharma brothers, you two must each go on into the world your separate ways and uphold the essence of our teacher's path.

[32:03]

My own nature is undisciplined. I delight in nature and in doing as I please. I'm not fit to be the head of a monastery. But remember where I reside, and if you come upon persons of great ability, send one of them to me. Let me teach him or her, and I'll pass on to him or her everything I've learned in life. In this way I can repay the kindness of our late teacher." So he knew himself pretty well. He'd practiced in the monastery hall, but he thought, this is not my way. I'm not going to lead a group. because it's kind of like layman pong, when he was asked if he wanted to ordain or not, and he said, you know, I really like to do what I like to do, so I'm going to wear white, you know, I'm going to stay a layperson. And that's one of our choices, you know. Bodhisattva way takes any form. So he...

[33:06]

decided to go to the Hua Ting River and be a boatman there. And so he departed and went to Hua Ting. There he lived his life rowing a small boat, transporting travelers across the river. So he just became a ferryman. People there didn't know that he possessed far-reaching knowledge and ability. They called him the boat monk. Once at the boat landing at the side of the river, an official asked him, what do you do each day? And Dershang held the boat oar straight up in the air and said, do you understand? The official said, I don't understand. And Dershang said, if you only row in the clear waves, it's hard to find the golden fish.

[34:08]

I just wanted to mention something about this golden fish, the golden scaled fish. The golden scaled fish, you know, fish, and Dogen talks about fish in Gencho Koan, right? Fish, swim like fish, and birds and fish. And the golden scaled fish is the one that travels up the river. and goes through the nine gates and comes out, you know. So it's freedom. It's full realization and freedom is the golden scale fish. And there's a wonderful koan in Blue, in Not Blue, Book of Serenity, called San Sheng's Golden Fish, which I love. It's very short. San Sheng-esque, Shui Feng. The golden fish that's passed through the net, what does it use for food? And Shui Feng said, when you come out of the net, I'll tell you.

[35:11]

And San Sheng says, the teacher of 1,500 monks and you don't even have a saying? And Shui Feng said, my tasks as abbot are many. So, yeah, my tasks as abbot are many. And in the commentary on this, it's like he's just unmoved, the abbot. It's like, you can say what you want, buddy. I'll tell you when you come out. Because he brings up, boy, you, you're such a big, mighty teacher, and you don't have anything to say to me. You know, I'm busy. See you later. Yeah. Anyway, that's golden fish. So the golden fish passes through all these gates, you know, it swims upstream kind of like salmon and goes through and comes out. And then he says, what does it need for food then, you know, after it's totally free?

[36:15]

How does it practice then if it doesn't have any problems? Anyway, so that's that golden fish. Oh, the golden fish comes up lots of places. And I think this is a good place to add this golden fish. So this is Dogen's poem, which is called On the Portrait of Myself. And some of you know it because I used it in a sashim this last year. For ten thousand fathoms, the cold lake is soaked with sky color. In the quiet night, a golden scaled fish swims along the bottom. From center to edge, the fishing poles are broken. On expansive water surface, bright moonlight.

[37:16]

This is Dogen's poem on a portrait of himself. For 10,000 fathoms, The cold lake is soaked in sky color. In the quiet night, a golden-scaled fish swims along the bottom. From center to edge, all the fishing poles are broken. On expansive water surface, bright moonlight. So, back to our friend Dershon. who's ferrying people, and I think it's a red boat. I read somewhere else it was a red boat. And then there's this long verse, which I think I'll not read to you, that you can read on your own, Dusheng composed verse. But this thing about if you only row in clear waves, it's hard to find the golden fish, comes up later.

[38:22]

In a whole other koan, Lu Po about to die, when they talk about compassion and that you have to go through precipitous straits. You don't find compassion in clear water where it's easy. You have to have some hard times. Later, Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Dao Wu, his Dharma brother, went to this place called Jingkau, where he happened to see Jashan Shanhui give a lecture. Jashan. So this is the fish, Jashan. A monk attending the talk, so Jashan is, by this time, this is a fellow named Jashan, who's the abbot of this big monastery. He's giving a lecture. Dao Wu happened to be there listening. And a monk asked the speaker, asked Jaishan, what is the Dharmakaya, the reality body of the Buddha, truth body of the Buddha?

[39:25]

Jaishan said, the Dharmakaya is formless. And the monk asked, what is the Dharma-I? And Jaishan said, the Dharma-I is without defect. And when he heard this, Dao Wu, who's sitting in the assembly, laughed loudly in spite of himself. So Jashan got down off the lecture platform and said to Dawu, something I said in my answer to that monk was not correct and it caused you to laugh out loud. Please don't withhold your compassionate instruction about this. Very humble guy, like he's up there and it's like, okay, what happened there? How come? Dawu said, you have... gone into the world to teach, but have you not had a teacher?" And Zhao Shan said, I've had none. May I ask you to clarify these matters?" And Da Wu said, I can't speak of it.

[40:29]

I invite you to go see the boat monk at Hua Ting. So I think Da Wu was saying, ah, this guy is a worthy guy, a worthy vessel of the Dharma. And I remember what my Dharma brother said, please, if you meet anybody, send them my way. I'm going to send this guy to the boat, to my brother, the boat man, the boat monk. So he says, I invite you to go see the boat monk at Hua Tang. And Josh said, who's he? And Dawu said, above him, there's not a single roof tile. Below him, there's no ground to plant a hoe. If you want to see him, you must change into your traveling clothes. So he's basically saying, you know, he lives on the water. He doesn't have a dwelling. He doesn't have a monastery. He doesn't have an abode. He's really no place to plant his hoe, no ground, no abiding, no abode.

[41:32]

So if you want to go see him, you know, change into your traveling clothes. Don't dress up. like an abbot and go see him. After the meeting was over, Jia Shan packed his bag and set out for Hua Ting. And I think in another commentary it said he kind of took care of the affairs of the monastery, but he set out right away. After, when De Shang, so here's De Shang, the boatman, Xuanzi, boatman De Shang, at the boat and he saw Ja'Shan coming. He said, Your reverence, in what temple do you reside? And Ja'Shan said, I don't abide in any temple. Where I abide is not like, and Ja'Shan interrupts him, it's not like, it's not like what? And Ja'Shan said, it's not like the Dharma that meets the eye. And Ja'Shan said, where did you learn this teaching?

[42:34]

And Jashan said, not in a place where the ears or eyes can perceive. Which comes up in this Lu Po about to die. He says, brings up this eyes and ears thing again. Lu Po is Jashan's student. Jashan said, he's the boatman, a single phrase and you fall into the path of principle. Then you're like a donkey tethered to a post for constant, countless eons. So what he said was, he said, you fall into principle. What Josh Han said there was accurate and right, but he's kind of clinging to it, kind of clinging to emptiness. And so he says, it's right, but you've fallen into the path of principle. And then you... are tethered like a donkey tethered to a post for countless eons.

[43:36]

So this image of this donkey who's tied and just goes round and round and round and round this pole. Don't we have that in like a tethered colt, a trapped rat, right? The ancient saints pitied them. It's like, yes, he understood something, but he's holding to it. He's not free anymore. from it and so he just goes round and round and holds to it and brings it up even though it's right, even though it's a correct teaching. Then Dershang said, you've let down a thousand foot line. So the boatman is saying to Josh and you let down this thousand foot line, you're fishing very deep but your hook is still shy by three inches. Why don't you say something? So I think he's acknowledging you have deep understanding, but you're not quite, you don't quite, you're three inches short, you know.

[44:44]

Why don't you say something? As Jashan was about to speak, Dershang knocked him into the water. So they're on the boat talking. He knocks him into the water with the oar. And if you picture it, when Jashan clambered back into the boat, Dershang yelled at him, speak, speak. Jashan tried to speak, but before he could do so, Dershang struck him again. Suddenly, Jashan attained great enlightenment. He then, I picture him going back into the water and then coming out again, and then this I think when Reb told this story, tears came to my eyes. So he then nodded his head three times. Then Schwanzer, the boatman, said, Now you're the one with the pole and line.

[45:50]

Just act by your own nature and don't defile the clear waves. So this, now you're the one with the pole and line. So Schwanza has been the boatman and he'd been, you know, he had said to his Dharma brothers, send me somebody. I want to repay the kindness of my teacher. I want to pass on everything. I've understood everything I know. I want to pass on the teaching. Send me somebody. And like a fisherman, send me a fish, you know. Send somebody my way. And then he says now to Joshan, you now have the pole and the line. I'm giving it to you. You're now the fisherman. And just act by your own nature and don't defile the clear waves. And Jashan's saying, what do you mean by throw off the line and casting down the pole? You're, you know, what do you mean you're giving it to me now? What about you? And Schwansa says, the fishing line hangs in the green water, drifting without intention.

[46:57]

So this image of not doing anything, not just, or this image from Dogen of fishing pole and, you know, all the fishing poles are broken. He's like, he has no more work to do, no more. Just let it drift in the water. Jashan said, there is no path whereby words may gain entry to the essence. The tongue speaks, but cannot speak it. And Xuansa said, when the hook disappears into the river waves, then the golden fish is encountered. And Jashan then covers both his ears. And Xuansa, the boatman, says, that's it, that's it. He then enjoined Jashan saying, hereafter... and this is also something we've been talking about hereafter, conceal yourself in a place without any trace.

[48:05]

If the place has any sign, don't stay there. I stayed with Yao Shan for 30 years, and what I learned there, I've passed to you today. Now that you have it, stay away from crowded cities. Instead, plant your ho deep in the mountains. Find one person. or one half a person who won't let it die. So this is... I'll say something a little bit more about this later, but Jashan then bid Xuanzai goodbye, and as he walked away, he looked back at Xuanzai, and suddenly Xuanzai yelled, Irreverence! And Jashan stopped and turned around, and Xuanzai, the boatman, held up the oar and said, Do you say there's anything else? And then he tipped over the boat and disappeared into the water, never to be seen again. Which I don't think, to me, that's, the fact that he was never seen again, I don't think means that he committed suicide or anything.

[49:16]

I think he just entered into the waves and he never, you know, taught. or had these encounters. He just lived his life, was never seen again, heard from again. In this way, he just entered the water. He disappeared into the water, like disappearing into the mountains. He just became one with his life, and he'd already completed his work, which is he found someone to pass on the teaching and enjoined them. It says, to plant your hoe, which means build a monastery deep in the mountains. Go lead the mountain life and pass it on yourself. Find one person or a half a person. Don't let it die. Don't let the teaching be cut off. Don't let it die. But his work was done, so he disappeared into the water. I was concerned, you know, when I, he tipped over, you know. But now, especially studying San Sui Kyo, I don't feel worried.

[50:22]

I think he was okay. And he was a great swimmer. So that's the story that I wanted to say a little bit more about it. So this... When the monk, when Dao Wu goes into this and hears Josh Han giving this talk and the monk says, what is the Dharmakaya? The Dharmakaya is formless. The Dharmakaya is formless. The reality body of the Buddha is formless and it takes form in response to beings. The form, it's formless.

[51:23]

empty, and emptiness is form. The dharmakaya, the reality body, takes form in response to beings. It appears in this world to teach, and so, yes, it's formless. And then when he asked, what is the dharma eye? If it's formless, how can we see it? What's the dharma eye that sees the dharmakaya? And when he says the dharma eye is without... defect, this defect is, it's used often, the word that's used is for like a defect, like a cataract in the eye where you see something that's actually not there. You see little designs or flowers they're called, flowers in the sky. is another name for this kind of defect of the eye, empty flower or sky flower, the kuge.

[52:27]

And Dogen has a whole fascicle about flowers in the sky. So he's saying his dharma eye has no defect, has no sky flower has no defect, he can see clearly." And that's when Dao Wu in the audience burst into laughter. So this humbleness of jashan actually realizing there's something missing, being humble enough to climb down from the seat and ask for instruction is in Genjo Koan where it says, when Dharma does not fill our body and mind, we think that nothing's missing, right? And we disregard, kind of like that fire boy Sikhs, you know. When Dharma doesn't fill your body and mind, when it doesn't fill, you think you're complete.

[53:35]

I'm already fine, I don't need to talk with you, and you actually can't tell me anything, so when Dharma does fill your body and mind, you realize something's missing, so this Jashan climbing down from the seat, kind of realizing something's missing, shows that he's filled with the Dharma, that he can be humble enough and beginner's mind enough to ask this person, what did he see? Can you help me? So then Dawu realizes this person is a vessel of the Dharma and worthy to send to my brother. Let's see. Kind of skipping around.

[54:39]

So when he gets to the boatman, you know, And he... Dishang immediately says, you know, your reverence, where do you reside? And he says, I don't abide in the temple. Where I abide is not like... And he cuts him off. You know, it says, it's not like, it's not like what? You know. And this... Okamura Roshi says, it's not like what? It's not like is this kind of, there's nothing fixed.

[55:40]

Everything's moving. Everything's walking. It's not, you can't say that it's like anything because everything's moving. It's not like, and his answer was, it's not like the Dharma that meets the eye. And this, I'm getting tired. There's so many parts to this. How are we doing? Is everybody okay? Climb down. Yeah, yeah. I should climb down from the seat. So this Lupo about to die. So Lupo is Jashan's student. This happens much later. Lupo's dying. And he says to this person who... It's so thick. It's so dense. He's about to die. And he says, I have one thing to ask you people. If this is so, this is adding a head on top of your head.

[56:43]

If it's not so, this is cutting off your head. And at this time, the head monk came forward and said, the green mountain is always moving its feet. And then he says, you don't hang a lamp in broad daylight. And Lupu says, what time is this to make such a speech? So my sense of this is like, he knew this saying about the green mountains are constantly walking, so now he's going to bring this, he's like a donkey tethered to the thing. This is this teaching we've been going over and over again for months now. And he brings it up, right? But Lupu's about to die. It's like he kind of hauls in this true teaching of Fuyo Dokai, Green Mountain is always moving its feet. You don't hang a lamp. You don't sell water by the river. You don't hang a lamp in broad daylight. You know, he's bringing these, but it's like this donkey tethered.

[57:44]

It's like he's going around and around the pole. It's not real. It's not true. And Lupo just, what? I'm dying here. You know, I want to, what time is it to make such a speech? And then a certain elder named Yong Song comes forth and says, leaving these two paths, I request the teacher not to ask. And Lu Pu then says, not yet, speak again. And he says, I can't say it all. Yong Song says, I can't say it all. And then Lu Pu says, I don't care if you can say it all or not. And he says, I have no attendant to answer the teacher. Later on that night, he calls for this elder to come. He's on his deathbed. And he says, your answer today was most reasonable. And then he says, you should experientially, and this is for our zazen and our seshing, you should experientially realize the saying of my late teacher.

[58:48]

Jiashan is his late teacher. Before the eyes there are no things. The meaning is before the eyes. That is something before the eyes, not to reach, beyond the reach of eyes and ears. So this was Jashan's teaching that he then gave to Lupo. And Lupo, on his deathbed, is now saying to this elder who came forward and just said, I begged the teacher not to even bring it up. Whereas this other guy was donkeying around the pole. And he says, okay, you need to experientially understand my lay teacher, John, what he said, before the eyes, there are no things. There's no things before the eyes. What's before the eyes is meaning. It's our karmic consciousness. What we see before the eyes is completely... It's what meaning we put on it through ourselves.

[59:57]

We're seeing ourselves before the eyes. It's beyond the reach of eyes and ears. There's not things out there. We give it the meaning. We create it. It's us. It now is me. I am now not it. And so that's what he says to this yang song on his deathbed. That is not something before the eyes, not in the reach of eyes and ears. This is what Jashan had said to the boatman, right? When the boatman's talking to him, he says... He had just said, you know, where are you from? I don't abide in a temple. Where I abide is like, it's not like... It's not like what? And then he says, it's not like the Dharma that meets the eye.

[60:59]

It's not like things. Where I abide is not like things, places that objects of mind. And then Dershangan said, where did you learn this teaching? Not in a place where the ears or eyes can perceive. So it's not... has no abode. There's no abode. It's moving, dharmic, flowing, can't grasp it. And then Dershang says, a single phrase and you fall into the path of principle or first principle or emptiness, then you're like a donkey tethered to a post for countless eons. So basically he's saying this phrase has hit the mark, you hit the mark, but if you're, if it's just, if you're caught by it and holding to it, as I said before, you're going to, that's it for the rest of your life, you're going to go round and round that.

[62:10]

And you won't be free like a fish, like the golden scale fish. So it's like, it's not a mistake, you know, but it's not right, you only got 80%, right, in all these koans where it's, okay, you're definitely close, three inches, three inches, the hook is three inches, but you're not quite there yet. So he says, you've let down the thousand foot line, you're fishing very deep, but your hook is still shy by three inches. And you're not going to get there by thinking and holding this. This is, you know, as I'm speaking, I'm giving myself these admonitions and instructions, right? The boatman is speaking to me. This kind of thinking or holding to these wonderful truths is not going to help.

[63:12]

It's not going to help us. It would just be like talking donkeys, right? And then he says, why don't you say something? And he's about to speak and that's when he hits him with the oar and he goes into the water and then he clambers out again and he yells at him again, speak, speak. And then he tries and back into the water and that's whatever that experience was, that realization. And then he nods three times. which reminds me of the sixth ancestor in the threshing room with the rice. When the fifth ancestor comes in the middle of the night, their Dharma transmission, where he takes the sifter that's got the rice in it, and he shu-shu-shu-shu, shu-shu-shu, shu-shu-shu, shu-shu-shu, shu-shu-shu. It's just like this. And it always makes me want to cry, you know, it's...

[64:16]

So he's soaking wet, climbs back in, and Dushong, you know, when he does that nodding, Dushong, the boatman, understands they're now one. Now you are the one with the pole. And it's like the difference between him and his student or his disciple that you've got the pole now. I give it to you because you are me. Just act by your own nature and don't defile the clear waves. So this, in the loophole about to die, later on it says you don't send a wooden goose over precipitous waves. You don't send a wooden goose. And it's about compassion. You don't try to strategize your compassion. Wooden goose is a piece of wood.

[65:19]

that you send out ahead of your boat to see which way it goes down the rapids and better avoid that. Oop, stay away from there. And you're strategizing and designing how you're going to get through. And compassion doesn't work that way. You can't strategize that way. So compassion in precipitous waters, you have to be completely one with it. You can't set out ahead of time to avoid this and that. You just enter. Just act by your own nature and don't defile the clear waves. Let's see. So this... not saying anything or not being able to speak.

[66:22]

We see it in so many stories and that becomes the way to express the unexpressible. But if one clings to that as a strategy, then we're lost again. I know it's getting late here. at the end there, when he says, when the hook disappears into the river waves, then the golden fish is encountered. And then Jashan covers his ears, and he says, that's it, that's it. At that point, Okumoro, she says, the Dharma transmission is completed. And then he tells him some things. Conceal yourself in a place where there's no trace. And... Actually, Dogen's teacher, Ru Jing, also when he said farewell to Dogen, told him, when you return to your country, do not associate closely with the emperor and ministers.

[67:35]

Do not live in a city, a town, or a village. Live in the deep mountains or a quiet valley. You don't have to collect many people like clouds. Having many... Fake practitioners is inferior to having a few genuine practitioners. Choose small number of true persons of the way and become friends of them. Teach one person or even half a person and continue the wisdom life of Buddhas and ancestors. So this is another layer of this. This is what Tendo Nyojo Dayosho said to Dogen when he returned to Japan. There's no traces. Be careful about this emperor fame, the government getting involved in the political scene there, which he could have. He came from a family that was involved in that way. Doesn't matter how many people, a few good practitioners, that's one or a half a person. And be friends.

[68:36]

And don't let the Dharma be cut off. Don't let the wisdom life of Buddhists and ancestors not be continued, continue it in that way. But it's so simple. And you don't have to make a big splash. It just takes one, you know. So this particular paragraph is about passing on the Dharma and the successors and the dangers, I think, the pitfalls of, you know, there's often a lot of interest in successor and who's who's successor and dharma transmission. This can be disruptive in a community or be a side issue. So he's saying, you know, just go to the mountains. You don't have to make a big deal out of this, but find, you know, keep fishing. So Dogen's...

[69:42]

Choosing this story, which reverberates with his own teacher, is, you know, there's just, it's so dense, you know, it's so thick with meaning. And it's all in this little paragraph, you know. Long ago, when the preceptor De Shang suddenly left Yao Shang and went to live on the river, he got the sage of Hua Ting River. And then the next paragraph, which is somewhere. What did I do with it? Is this not hooking a fish? Is it not hooking a person? Is it not hooking water? Is it not hooking himself? That the person got to see Dershang, the person being Jashang,

[70:44]

got to see Dershang is because he was Dershang. Now, Dershang's accepting the person is his meeting the person. So this Dharma transmission is meeting the self. And there's some other layer to this which I want to say, which is the meaning of the word Dershang, which doesn't come into the translation. because in English we just say De Shang, but the meaning of his name is virtue and sincerity. That's what De Shang means. Japanese, toku jo, virtue, toku, and jo, sincerity.

[71:46]

So that the person got to see Dershang is because he was Dershang. He was virtuous and sincere. He got to see him because he was him in non-duality, and he got to see him because he was Dershang, he was virtuous and sincere. We lose that in the translation, this virtuous and sincere. That's That was his practice, and that's how the two of them met as one person, non-separated. And the dharma transmission happened between them because virtuous and sincere, and he saw himself. Now the story I wanted to tell about Suzuki Roshi, and then I'll end, is... It's an Ed Brown story, and some of you know it, but I didn't realize it had this layer. Ed Brown was Tenzo here, and he went to Suzuki Roshi to say, all these people, they're just not practicing, they're taking long breaks, they talk in the kitchen all the time, they're just not Zen students that are really doing the practice, and it's really terrible, Suzuki Roshi, and you need to do something about it.

[73:05]

And Suzuki Roshi said, you have to be sincere to see virtue. You have to be sincere enough to see virtue. Or you have to be virtuous to see sincerity. I think either of them work. I actually can't remember which one it is now. Kalbang to see virtue? Yeah. So this reverberated with me that the person... You have to be Dershang in order to see Dershang. To see your teacher, you have to be that way. And this, it's not okay and everything should be changed and they're not okay and they're doing it all wrong. We have to be the person to see the person and see their practice and see their sincerity. And then we see that we and the person are not two. that the person got to be Durshang is because the person was virtuous and sincere.

[74:10]

That's how he was able to meet him completely. And I think, is that the end of that section? Yeah. Durshang is setting the person. Is his meeting the person? So meeting each other with virtue, our virtue and sincerity, and the virtue, as we've been talking about, as bearing in mind, inscribing it in our heart and our bones and trees and rocks, the virtue, these two virtues of form and emptiness and being sincere, that's when we'll meet, truly meet, without seeing people as outside ourselves that we have to get, you know, I think I'll end there, and I'm going to look at the clock.

[75:21]

Maybe just a couple questions, if anybody has a couple, or any just thoughts about this section. Yes, Ki. Thank you for your interest. Yeah. I feel necessary aspects of practice. One is the realizing and then the other is the letting go. So there's the dark attack at the hole which is just being stuck in this side. But then if you don't you can't understand what these guys are saying here. You can't really experience it.

[76:28]

You can't have it in your body. I think people think that going beyond, like, oh, we're beyond Buddha, means that forget about Buddha. But I think that it's about entering and then. You have to go through it first. Yeah, the golden fish has to get through the net. And then they're free. And then they're free to go any way they want. So all these stories, it's all to help us. And of course, just like any medicine, when is it medicine and when is it the disease? That go on. too much medicine and you'll be very sick, right? Medicine, so we can't overdo it, but if we don't take medicine, you know, so this, to get attached to or feel like, if I can spout these phrases, like on the deathbed when he comes in, the green mountains are constantly walking and moving their feet, you don't hang a lamp in daylight, you know, those are, it becomes poisoned, you know?

[77:45]

It becomes poison just like realization experiences and openings of various kinds. Darshanamarga can become poison if we tether to it and hold it and drag it into situations. So, you know, the vast, the teaching of the depth and 10,000 fathoms deep, you know, and to remain sincere and humble in the face of this and in the face of our human tendencies to want something and to hold and to want to know where we are. We're so adorable in our humanness and we suffer so, all of us. Thank you. Miss Jane. I really love this section and all of the stories that you brought up today.

[78:46]

And they remind me of some of the fishermen and fishermen that I know in Minnesota. Uh-huh. Who, you know, don't seem to care anything about whether they catch fish. They just want to be out on the river. Yes. You know, I've noticed this about some of them that it's, they're sitting outside and that's what they're doing. Yes. the whole thing about catching, being caught, you know, and poking away and away from them, just really, so a couple of things, and one of them who always says that, I mean, many of them say that fishing is their religion. Yes. One of them says, fishing is how we praise. And one of them, I talked, we had a city group in Grand Marais, and I, I taught one of them to come in because I thought, you know, they're doing the same thing that we do when we're sitting. And he came in for us, and he didn't like it. And I asked him why, and he said that because it wasn't on the water.

[79:52]

Yes, yes. You know, there's some theory that I've heard that zazen and yogic States and so forth came out of hunting. Have you heard that? Sitting very, very still, having to for survival to catch your meal and then entering into these. That's so interesting. Jane and I come from Minnesota and we found out yesterday that we went to the same Girl Scout camp. My sisters were my counselors. That was so funny. I don't know if you heard us laughing in the Doakshan room, but that was so funny. Yeah. Those ice fisher, I've always wondered about the ice fishing, you know. They go out on the lake in really cold weather and they sit with a little ice house and they cut a hole.

[80:59]

They sit in there. But it's the same thing. It's the elements and the quiet and the... Yeah, fishing. For Minnesota, Jim Longquist, who at one time was like one of the three leaders of the group in the loop, was also a chemical dependency counselor. He said he had one guy that he would just say, dear blind mind. This guy, when he got into dear blind, he knew of the body. Ah. Oh, I wasn't sure what you meant there, but a deer blind. Yes, a deer blind. Deer blind mind. Yeah, yeah. What? A deer blind is you set yourself up and the deer can't see you. It's a hunting thing, you know, and you have to sit very quietly. Oh, deer blinds are in the tree? Oh, I thought you were in the brush. I didn't come from a hunting family.

[82:06]

Actually, I did come from a Girl Scout family. And living on the water was, yeah. In fact, after I mentioned Girl Scouting, I've gotten some more merit badges from the Tonto. We had hiking, the hiking merit badge, which had the three... three treasures at Poison Oak. And we had Doshi, and the Merit Badge had this, a beautiful, and what was the third one? Wake Up Bell. Wake Up Bell, Merit Badge, yeah. And I was going to make, actually I tried to draw it and I thought, I cannot put my energy into this. I was going to do Heat and Light. I thought that'd be a beautiful Merit Badge with the, you know, and... What was another? Birdwatching. You could get your merit badge here if you're easily birdwatching. And bath, bathing, you know.

[83:11]

Yeah. Yeah, and then the no merit badges. But after I mentioned that to you about Girl Scouting and all, all these Girl Scout songs came up. Like, Really, really strong. Really strong. But, you know, there's no music in the valley during the practice period. But one of them was about canoeing. I'm sure you all know it. I'm sure you know it, too. The dip, dip, and swing. Yeah. Would you like to hear that? Leslie's covering her ears. What? You don't want to hear it. You're worried? Oh, that'll keep reverberating?

[84:15]

Well, let's do it. Let's do it. Those of you who know it. My paddle? It's beautiful, in a round especially. Anything else about life on the water, life on the ice, in the deer blind? Yes? When you brought up earlier about the book, I think, about Selling Water by a Riffle. Yes. It's one of the things I've really liked. It's a saying.

[85:20]

I found the first of the three pillars of Zen about being the advent of Osinji back in the late or the 19th century, who his epitaph says, I've been selling water by a river for 40 years. And there's two parts that I've already expounded on that teaching. One part was that it was an encouragement to the students that, you know, it's right there. He's not actually giving you anything. It's just, I mean, it's right there. And it was also a humble statement for the teacher that he was being a conduit to something that already existed. He wasn't adding a single thing. And the solid water by a ripper I always thought was just a really striking analogy. Yeah. I agree. I agree. It says so much. There's one other piece that really resonates with me that you were talking about with the kind of looking at people in other traditions.

[86:26]

And I know there's many things that resonate with people, but the thing that was always very difficult for me in another tradition was the proselytizing or the effort to spread a word, I guess you would say. And if you have something that's really good, you think, well, that makes sense. You want to tell other people about it. But there was something that was really comforting to me coming in and hearing about students sitting outside the gate for days, trying to show their resolve and kind of flipping that analogy, whereas the students being the teacher's door down, it seemed to bring in a measure of sincerity to what was actually going on, placing the responsibility back on the student. I don't know, I felt really comforting when I first came to Zen Seminary. No one came up and asked me for months what I was doing there. I thought I'd done this, or if I'd done that, or if I thought I'd go into Tassafara, or if I want to sort of rock the zoo, or if I, you know, it's just, it kind of just let me be there.

[87:31]

Yeah. And that was pretty cool. Yeah. I think it's, it allows people find their way, you know, gives them the space to find their way. And I remember hearing about someone who was in a religious sect where part of it was they had to proselytize, they had to spread the word, they had to take every opportunity so they'd be on airplanes and they felt they had to begin talking about the gospel and with the people next to them. And finally when they gave it gave it up, the relief, you know, of just feeling you could just sit with people without doing this thing that he felt he had to do. It was really an interesting interview with this person. Okay.

[88:32]

Yes, Kim? I thoroughly recommend the water and sailing. Yes. I certainly have found many Continuous teaching, did you miss it? And there certainly is a type of person that's very attracted, for instance, to sailing, and it's usually a quiet spirit. And I often hear people say, I very rarely ever mention that I sail, but when I have, I often hear, oh, I just love sailing and And then they tell me all what they do in sailing, and I think we haven't been sailing. Because for me, like, large pieces of it were about fear and the whole aloneness of the piece. And we never know what's going to happen any moment. And everything from a rudder falling off to, you know, your sails blowing out to, you know, getting your foot caught in a line or...

[89:42]

you know, just a variety of things that are every day. And that to me is sailing. And then there are those other days that are just glorious and you're, you know, one with everything. I wonder how that happened. It just all came so easily today. Yeah. Sounds like life, life is... Thank you very much.

[90:36]

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