This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Yesterday we left off our study with Preceptor Kai of Mount Dayang addressed the assembly saying... The blue mountains are constantly walking. The stone woman gives birth to a child in the night. And I wanted to say something about Preceptor Kai, which is Fu-yo-do-kai-dai-yo-sho, our ancestor Fu-yo-do-kai. and just give a little preamble to his statement, which it turns out he, there's no context really for this statement.

[01:19]

All it says is he went into the assembly, he kind of walked into the zendo and said this and then descended the seat and went home. So these are our ancestors. They do things like this. He also said lots more that you can find. And Dogen highly reveres Fuyo Dokai and in the fascicle continuous practice quotes a long talk by him and reveres him. Backing up from fu-yo-do-kai, if you think of our chant, we have to-su-gi-sei-dai-yo-sho, fu-yo-do-kai-dai-yo-sho. And to-su-gi-sei's teacher or the person right before to-su-gi-sei is tai-yo-kyo-gen-dai-yo-sho, to-su-gi-sei-dai-yo-sho.

[02:24]

So there's... There's some wonderful stories about these beings. This is all in the Soto lineage. And after Tozan, and... There's Tozan Ryokai Dayosho, Ungodoyo Dayosho. And after Ungodoyo, there's three different teachers... that are not well-known. So we can recite them, right? Aungan donjo dayo sho. What? Doan dohi dayo sho. Doan kanshi dayo sho. Ryozan enkan dayo sho. Those three teachers, we don't know their dates. We don't know anything about them.

[03:25]

We have no disciples from them. So there was a time in the Soto lineage actually there was a lot of political upheaval going on in China at the time, and Buddhism was government-sponsored, and you know, you were able to be a monk by, you know, the government let you be a monk, and the emperor was involved in Buddhism, and the aristocrats, and so forth. And at the end of the Tang Dynasty, And before the Song Dynasty, there was about 50 years there of kind of chaos and upheaval and a lot of problems for Buddhism at the time. And it was right around this time, in those years, that those three teachers that we know very little about lived. So after Ungodoyo, there was this upheaval time. And then we get to Taiyo Kyogen.

[04:28]

He was... 943 to 1027. And the Tang Dynasty ended in the early 900s and started up again in about 970. So later, when the Song began to establish things again and less chaos. So Taiyo Kyogen came from the... Soto school or Cao Dung school. Buddhism was in decline and all his disciples died actually before he could, there was nobody else he could pass on the Dharma transmission to, the Soto lineage transmission. And he was about 80 years old at the time. He didn't have any disciples left and he was despairing of the lineage. He was the last holder. So if you can imagine, just one successor in the Soto lineage and he can't find anyone to pass it on to.

[05:35]

So he did a highly unusual thing, Taiyo Kyogen, which was he found a worthy heir who happened to be from the Rinzai lineage. and this worthy heir was named Fu Shan. And he was a wonderful teacher in his own right, and he already had dharma transmission in the Rinzai, the Linji tradition, and didn't want to, you know, have to do both, but he said to Taiyo Kyogen, Da Yang, he said, If you entrust it with me, I'll hold it for you. I'll hold it for the lineage until I find a worthy heir. And so Taiyog Hyogen entrusted to Fushan, who we don't chant. Fushan isn't in our lineage chart. He was this side guy who said, I'll hold it and keep it, keep it well and not let it be cut off.

[06:49]

and the Soto Tsadong school teachings were given to him by Taiyok Hyogen, and he felt he understood them and held them. And there was a poem that Taiyok Hyogen gave to Fushan. The grass atop wide poplar mountain relies on you till the time Its wayward sprouts are born to fertile ground, and the fathomless mystery takes ethereal root. So this was the poem Tayo Kyogen gave to Fusha. Now, I've known this particular story that in our Soto lineage, even though we say face-to-face transmission, menzan, face-to-face, warm hand-to-warm hand, there was this There was this thing that happened in our lineage where it skirted because Tosugisei never saw.

[07:57]

In fact, he was born in 1032 and Taiyo Kyogen died in 1027. So there were five years when they couldn't have possibly met even as a baby. Taiyo Kyogen died, Tosugisei wasn't even born, and Fushan was holding it. I wanted to say something about Fushan Fa Yoran. It turns out, and I had forgotten this, this is why it's so wonderful to study and refresh myself in these stories, and Fushan, it turns out, is maybe my absolute favorite, one of my absolute favorite Zen masters, and I, who I've told stories about here, people who have heard me tell these stories. And then I hadn't realized, or I realized again in studying for this Dharma talk, that it was Fushan who held Soto lineage for 10 years before he found a worthy heir.

[09:01]

So I'm going to tell you two stories about Fushan Fa-Yuran, who you know too, and Dogen loves him too. Dogen, that's how I know about him, because Dogen, tell stories about him. So one of the stories is Fushan came with his friend, whose name I can't remember, to study with Guisheng. It was very snowy and cold. He got to the monastery and they were put in the Tangariya Room. You probably know this story. The Tangariya Room is where before you've entered the monastery you sit and express your sincerity, as all of you have, by just sitting until you're allowed to enter. So this particular teacher, Guishan, was very severe, very harsh, very strict, and they're sitting in the Tungari room, it's cold, and the teacher comes in and throws water on them. And these other monks who were there, I think, ran away, but Fushan and his friend basically said, we've traveled thousands of miles to come and study with you, and we're not going to be dissuaded by a little scoop of water that you throw on us.

[10:11]

And Guishang laughed at this and said, these people should study Zen and go hang up your belongings and you get to enter. So that particular story, I just, you know, picture yourself, you've come to sit Tungaryo, you know, and it's freezing and you don't have hot water running through the floor and you don't have hot, you're sitting there and then the teacher comes in and douses you with cold water. It's like, forget it. Who needs this? You know, this is abusive. But Fushang and his friend was like, in fact, he said, you can beat me to death. I'm not leaving. I came here to study with you. That kind of spirit, you know, Dogen lauds, and I find it just remarkable, you know, I get. I find enthusiasm rising in me to think about people who were that clear about studying the way.

[11:18]

So that's Fushan and he stayed at that mountain with this teacher and eventually was asked to be the Tenzo. This is another story that Dogen tells about Fushan. So he was Tenzo on this mountain and it was a very poor meaning quantity and quality of food was very, they didn't have very much on this mountain, so probably watery white rice gruel, you know, and I don't know what all. They had a few acorns and hickory nuts, or I don't know, vegetables, some. So one day when Guishan the abbot left to go to the city, Fushan the tanzo stole the key to the storeroom went into the storeroom and got flour and special things and made a kind of special festival meal called Five Flavored Gruel, which was only served on like Buddha's Enlightenment Day, like a really a special thing.

[12:27]

Can you imagine the monks? They were just, oh, this delicious meal came. Well, Guishang actually returned early from the village. And it was time for lunch or whatever, so he had the meal as well. And after the meal, he waited outside and called for the tenzo, Fushan, and said, did you steal from the monastery storerooms? And Fushan said he had. And the consequence of that was he had him calculate the cost of those ingredients, and since he was a monk with out any stipend or anything. He had to sell his bowls and his robes in order to pay back the monastery for this illegal, this use of the monastery, the Sangha's provisions without permission.

[13:29]

And he also received 30 blows from his teacher and he was kicked out of the monastery. So Fushan, you know, paid for the whatever the ingredients were, and he went to this village and asked, actually begged his Dharma friends, his fellow monks, please, on my behalf, speak for me and seek forgiveness on my behalf. And even if I'm not allowed to return to the monastery, at least I'd like to see the abbot in the abbot's room, have doksana. And he was refused. No way. So one day Guishang went into the village and saw Fushang in front of these lodgings, kind of a guest house, kind of a place that was owned by the monastery that was in town. And he said, have you been staying here in the monastery's lodgings? And he had been. And he asked him to calculate how much the lodgings cost and to...

[14:36]

do takuhatsu, beg, and repay the monastery for, you know, having, for room and board, you know, having stayed there. And Fushan did that and, you know, went around with his begging bowl and paid back the monastery. And this went on. And then at some point Guishan went to the village again and just saw Fushan standing there with his begging bowl. And at that point he had him come back to the monastery. And he said about him, Fushan Fa Yuran truly has the determination to study Zen, to study the way. So this story has always, both of these stories about Fushan have been extremely encouraging for me.

[15:42]

And I actually don't know why. Somebody else may feel, this is too much. This is over the top. This is not nice. And somehow I felt that the two of them, Guishan and Fushan, completely understood each other. There was no... Each understood how the other was practicing and accepted it and valued it, respected it, and they went along together in this way, studying the Dharma in this very intimate, very detailed way. And when Fushan went against the monastery rules, you know, by stealing or taking food without asking, he knew exactly what he was doing. Whether he got caught or not, he did it. He went against the guidelines knowingly and willingly, and knowingly and willingly received the consequences of his actions with no...

[16:57]

I don't know, resentment, bitterness, and how can he treat me that way? And after everything I've done for him, you know, and I've been such a good, just none of that, no lip, you know, just, I get it. And we'll do this together. So completely intimate, and this kind of understanding. So this is Fushan. who held our Soto lineage for 10 years until he found somebody to pass it on to. And who he found was Tosugisei Daeyosho. And the story is that he had a dream one night. He dreamt of a blue eagle coming. And he saw that as a kind of omen. And I guess the next day, Tosugisei showed up, and they practiced together, and after several years, maybe three or so years, he passed on the robe and the bowl of Taiyo Kyogen and the Dharma Transmission, and Tosugisei, you know, continued the lineage.

[18:19]

And Tosugisei was Fuyo Dokai's teacher. So Fuyo Dokai, his dates are 1043 to 1118. And he had been involved in the Taoist arts of fasting and searching for immortality and those kinds of things. And then he gave that up to study Buddhism. And he was very famous, had many, many, many students and many Dharma-transmitted students who went on to be abbots of very famous temples and so forth, so very well known. And the emperor wanted to acknowledge him, wanted to honor him, and wanted to give him a purple robe, which was this sign of the emperor's favor.

[19:31]

respect and honoring. And also to give him a name, Zen Master Samadhi Illumination. And Fuyo Dokai refused the purple robe. And the messenger who brought this, to refuse the emperor, there would be consequences. You don't do this lightly. The emperor was really kind of all-powerful. And the messenger who brought this news and the road to give to him tried to kind of, oh, you must be sick. Is that what it is? You're sick. You can't receive this honor now. Is that right? No, I'm just fine. I was sick before, but I'm not sick now. So Fuyo Docai was completely clear and also whatever the consequences. And the consequences were that he was exiled for this, you know... insult kind of to the emperor who was offering and honoring and his refusing.

[20:33]

So he was in his wrath, it says, the emperor exiled him and he demanded that he go to some other mountain and take up residence there, which he did, and many followers went there. In fact, this story, you know, became famous that he refused the purple robes and more people came to him because he He wasn't into fame and gain, right? He wasn't into profiting by the Dharma in any way. And so many students came. And eventually the emperor changed his mind. lost his wrath and anger and ended up building him a monastery somewhere. So that's our teacher, Fuyo Dokai.

[21:36]

And when we do the ancestors, the Buddhas and ancestors, the Doshi bows, does a full prostration for certain names. So we bow for the seven Buddhas before Buddha and Chakyamuni, and we bow for Nagarjuna and Vasumitsu, Nagarjuna, Vasubhansu, the Bodhidharma, and we do a full prostration for Fuyo Dokai Dayosho. That's one of the ones we do this full prostration to. So this is Fuyo Dokai. And... So Fuyo Dokai in... in our Mountains and Waters Sutra walks into the assembly. It says, Preceptor Kai, Fuyo Do Kai, walked into the assembly and says, the blue mountains are constantly walking. A stone woman gives birth to a child at night.

[22:42]

So, you know, what is that? What is that referring to? What is that pointing to? What is that illuminating? What is that? So I feel, you know, this is commentary. So this is Each one of us has to feel in our own practice, body-mind, what is this? And the danger in someone saying this is what it means is that we then attach to words and letters, right? We attach to commentary, we attach to those words.

[23:47]

words, and then we might say, well, now I know what it means. It's this, which is a, you know, a kind of conceptual understanding. And at the same time, if we don't make comments on this, although we have many instances of, just like yesterday, Bai Zhang sat still, or on the first day of Sishin, when asked about the teachings of the ancients, or the world-honored one ascended the seat. Manjushri hit the gavel and said, clearly observe the Dharma of the Dharma king is thus. And the Buddha, the world-honored one, got down from the seat. So there's lots of, we have instances, we have teachings of and instances of great, great gratitude for a teacher who didn't say something, who didn't say, didn't tell, at a point when someone asked, tell me, tell me, tell me.

[25:04]

And the teacher said, if I tell you, you'll resent me forever. So all those things All those stories are in our lineage of silence and speaking and refusing to speak and speak, speak. So each one of you has to turn these sayings and doings of our teachers as you turn your own sayings and doings. So I will... make some comments about the stone woman giving birth and the blue mountains are constantly walking. Most people talk about the stone woman giving birth to a child in the night. So the stone woman, another translation of stone woman is barren woman. So a barren woman, the meaning of stone woman is barren.

[26:07]

So what is a barren? Barren is unable to Unable to give birth, right? Unable to conceive, unable to have a child. So what could possibly a barren woman or a stone woman, how could a barren woman or a stone woman give birth? What is this pointing to? What... And not only does a barren woman, a stone woman, give birth, she gives birth at night. And maybe she only can give birth at night. So, a stone woman, if we... bring our attention to the teachings of form and emptiness, to the teachings of myriad objects partake of the Buddha body, to the teachings of form is not different from emptiness, emptiness is not different from form.

[27:40]

we can kind of circle around stone woman giving birth to a child at night. So stone woman looks like a woman, just like any object looks like what it is. This lectern, these papers, this lamp, this table, each one of us looks, appears to be this thing that has its own its own existence. And it looks like, if you look at objects, they look like they're kind of their own thing, separate from other things, the 10,000 things. And each one of these things... conventionally exists, just like that, as its own unique breeze of reality, as we were talking yesterday, and functions, and has a past, present, and future, and, you know, primary causes and conditions, and each thing comes to be accordingly.

[28:59]

And yet, each thing, each Dharma, each being, is empty of separate self. And if you study each thing thoroughly enough, you will see that it is connected with every other thing. So it isn't just a lamp or it isn't just a table. This table exists conventionally as a table that we put things on or a lectern and it serves us, it has a function, and it was made by somebody, and conventionally it exists. We can ask the jisha to bring the lectern, and everybody conventionally will understand exactly what we're talking about if you speak English, and there's no problem there. However, along with each thing existing in this way with its own unique meaning,

[30:07]

non-repeatable energy and form and nature and causes and conditions at the exact same time, it has no separate self and it is completely connected with every other thing in this interconnected reality of existence that we're talking about. So the stone woman conventionally is a woman And yet there isn't a woman there, a separate woman, in the way we imagine, in the way we create separate substantialness, solid substantialness, separate from other things. It's a stone woman. It's a woman and it's not a woman. It's a table and it's a moment of complete time being Existence interconnected with everything else.

[31:11]

And it's a table. And it's everything it wants. And it's a table. Each one of us is the reality of this. It's not there's some reality about this, about this thing I'm talking about. Each of us is this reality, expresses this, manifests this reality of all things conventionally exist and don't exist in the way that we think in separateness. And so they're non-existent or empty of separate existence. at the very same time in the very same table, in the very same lectern.

[32:14]

There's not one lectern that's kind of there and solid and some other lectern that's empty. It's this form is empty of separate self. And emptiness only expresses itself in form. Form is empty of separate self. And emptiness... is form. That's how emptiness manifests as form. So this stone woman, stone woman is all these conditions without inherent existence. And even though it doesn't have an inherent existence still in the interconnectedness of all things, things arise. Moment by moment, things arise.

[33:14]

This is the child. Even though the barren woman, the stone woman, isn't a separate self, It can produce everything, all things. All things are produced in this way, in interconnectedness, dependently co-arisenness. Each thing is a dependently co-arisen. This is the child that's given birth by the interconnectedness of all things gives birth to these things. So the stone woman gives birth to a child at night. And this night, you know, we were talking a little bit yesterday about night and dark and Suzuki Roshi's commentary about a dark room which I couldn't find.

[34:30]

going into a room with no lights on, and it's filled with things, and yet you don't see anything. But everything's there in the dark. You don't see it, but everything's there. And I think in this same way, this darkness, or as in the sandokai, the branching streams, the spiritual source shines clear in the light. The spiritual source is this darkness, and it's within everything. It shines clear. It shines in everything. The spiritual source is there in each and every existence. And the branching streams which flow from this source flow in the dark. So each and every object, all the 10,000 things, are not suffused with, because that almost feels like two things, but... Each and every object is a manifestation of the source.

[35:31]

The branching streams are water. And yet we don't see them that way. We see them as each separate thing. This is our conventional view, our conceptual, conventional view. And yet the teaching is that this source of all things that we're all existing together in the darkness. We're all existing together in emptiness. So, you know, how does this help us?

[36:41]

You know, how is this, why say this? Why write a whole fascicle that, you know, how is, what is this, how will this relieve the suffering of the many beings? I was talking with some people recently and Actually, people back at Green Gulch and the theme that was coming up for some of the people I was talking with was a very deep belief, I guess, a deep karmic formation, a deep karmic consciousness that... around shame, you know, a shame about just who they are in this world, just the fact that they're alive walking on this earth, you know, feeling that it's

[38:00]

you know, that it's not okay even that they exist somehow. And, you know, realizing that this is some idea or a karmic formation and yet struggling with how that comes up in daily life, in interactions with people, in just everyday activities of leading a life, going to work, being with family and friends, this sense of not being worthy, not having value. And everybody else has value. So this is different from bodhisattva vow where we vow to take others across before ourselves This is not, we don't have value and everybody else does. That vow comes from, this is how to express my interconnectedness, is to live for the benefit and be lived by others.

[39:18]

So this stone woman giving birth to a child at night, you know, the mysterious, inconceivable way that we exist, that we exist together. And that we can't conceive of it, you know? That it is inconceivable. We can't have a conception of it and it's like what? Painted rice cake, you know? It doesn't satisfy So we have to live this out in our daily life. This is an image that, you know, of a pearl rolling in a bowl, a pearl, a bright pearl rolling in a bowl, are being held

[40:26]

you know, being held completely and fully functioning, rolling around. Just the way a pearl, being around, it will roll. That's the pearl's way. It rolls. But it doesn't roll off by itself. How could it roll off? It has to roll on something. It's held. It's held in the bowl. and can never not be held. If it's going to roll, it's rolling on something. It's just like each one of us. Our full functioning is completely supported, and we not only... Our existence is inconceivable, fathomless mystery, And we are supported.

[41:26]

And of course we want to know the mystery. We want to, we have a, you know, a kind of longing maybe to understand the mystery. And this non-understanding is almost, holds us almost this not knowing in the dark. You know, in the Genjo Koan, where it says, a bird swims in... No, birds do not swim in the water. Some do. A bird flies in the sky, and no matter how far it flies, there's no end. A fish swims in the water. Completely supported in their elements. But then there's later, it says, if a bird or a fish tries to reach the end of its element before moving in it, this bird or this fish will not, what? Find its way or its place. So... We want to know, we want to see the end. We want to see the end of the elements.

[42:32]

I'm flying through this air, but I want to see, how is this air holding me up here? And we'll never get there. That's not going to help us fly, to kind of get to the end of the element of air. If we try to reach the end of the element before we swim or before we fly, We're not going to find our place. So what is the practice? Come back, come back, come back to our right here, right now. Right now we're supported in this Bodhi Manda, this seat. Each of us has our seat and sincerely doing each thing before us with a kind of, you know, in this... that first line, we vow with all beings from this life on through countless lives to hear the true Dharma, that upon hearing it, no doubt will arise in us, nor will we lack in faith.

[43:42]

This is a vow. We vow to hear the true Dharma and not lack in faith, and to not have doubts. Now someone might say, but I don't understand. How can I have no doubts? How can I have faith if I don't understand? And I was just reading this. I was telling somebody, I was reading this lecture that's in the reference in the study hall where Suzuki Roshi is talking to someone in Q&A who is saying, I don't understand this teaching and so he was rejecting it. I don't get it, so I'm not going to... And Suzuki Roshi said, you have no backbone. You've got no spine. You're rejecting this just because you don't understand it? This is one of those times when it'd be nice to hear the tape to see how he said that. You've got no backbone.

[44:44]

And I think often we think, I have backbone. I don't get it and I'm not going to do it, so there. And that has integrity, and to go beyond that, to leap into don't know, the night of don't know, and coming back to this body-mind, don't know practice. Yeah, he said it like twice, you've got no spine. It takes spine to sit there without knowing. Don't know. Don't know mine. Not knowing is most intimate, right? I think that goes against some kind of, I don't know if it's western or that we've got to know and have it all.

[45:47]

But not, turning away and touching our both around, not you know, I don't want to know anything, that's not it either, right? Not to study, not to listen to the Dharma, that goes too far that way. But then feeling like I've got to know before I sit or before I continue my practice, that's a problem too, turning away and touching our both wrong. So the blue mountains are always walking. The stone woman gives birth in the night. Each of us is stone woman or wooden man. We look like a being and yet our conceptualization of what beings are, this notion of self, solidity, substance, solid, substrate of

[46:53]

that we apply to things, to ourself, to others, is a fiction. It's an ignorant, it's the ignorance and the kind of phantasmagorical arising of things, the child being born in the night over and over, right on their due date, you know? comes together and dependently co-arisenness coming out of not this being gives birth to that being but the entire reality of existence. The entire being gives birth to each and every and each and every thing is the entirety.

[47:55]

So does it take courage to not know? I don't know. I don't know what to say. What is it that keeps us going when we don't know? Something is supporting us and encouraging us or we wouldn't be in this room together. So when people tell me about feeling, I know what it's like to feel ashamed. Ashamed is one thing. Ashamed of our actions that are not in alignment with our vows is one. It's a wholesome dharma on the list of dharmas. Hri and anapatrapya are feeling, whatever that feeling is, when we're not in accord, that feeling is wholesome. It's sometimes translated as shame, but... I think that carries too much negativity.

[49:16]

I think it's kind of... I can't hear it. Remorse, remorse. People say, have you no self-respect? When you do something, it's a kind of self-respect. You feel that. So that kind of feeling is necessary and it's necessary that it matters to us that our actions may be reproved by the wise. Those are wholesome dharmas. But when we go too far to feel and feel that we don't have a right to be here and we may have you know, we may have done actions in the past that are not in accord and way, way far away from how we want to live our life now.

[50:25]

And there were causes and conditions at those times that created that child in the night. Those actions born of, that's the thing, when we say or when I said about myself, I don't deserve to live or I don't deserve to be among humankind, that's based on a belief of separate self that has done reprehensible actions that cannot be condoned. But when you study that, you see a whole and vast interconnected web that where those actions arose. And we, the one who believes in a separate self, receives the consequence of those actions. So can we forgive ourselves? Can we slowly, slowly dismantle

[51:30]

these karmic formations, weaken them over and over by hearing the true Dharma that does not say certain beings are separate and need to be excluded because they are undeserving of, you know, this is not Buddha Dharma. And yet we believe that, you know, and it may have brought us to practice. So in some ways those very thoughts support us to practice and hear the true Dharma. But then it's time to let go of them. They have served their purpose. They have brought us to find our Bodhi-manda. And now they don't function anymore except to cause pain and suffering. So I wanted to end with a poem, Rilke, which reminds me of this, what I've been talking about.

[52:59]

Ah, not to be cut off, not through the slightest partition shut out from the law of the stars. The inner, what is it? if not intensified sky hurled through with birds and deep with the winds of homecoming. Wow. I'm going to read it again. Ah, not to be cut off, not through the slightest partition, shut out from the law of the stars. The inner, what is it? If not... intensified sky hurled through with birds and deep with the winds of homecoming. Are there any questions?

[54:19]

Did everybody hear Maria? Do you want to say it again? My question is whether Fushan's action of stealing the ingredients was a form of skillful? You know, I feel like he did it. He wanted to serve the monks something really good to eat. And he wanted to, so much so that he went against, you know, he stole what had been given to Sangha, which is, in terms of taking what he's not given, that's the most dire.

[55:24]

of all the, taking what is not given is taking from the Sangha because what was given to the Sangha is for the benefit of all beings in the entire universe for people to, so to take from the Sangha is like, so watch out with these cookies and stuff that are in the tin. Anyway, it wasn't skill and means. You know, my sense is that it wasn't done for any purpose other than that, feeding the monks. I don't think it was like, oh, this will wake them up. They'll see what happened to me. To me, it was just a clear, full-on expression of seeing something and responding without... much self-concern, really, of what's going to happen.

[56:32]

I think he probably knew if somebody finds out, you know. So is that skill and means? Maybe so. It's certainly skill and means for us, as the story has been told. What do you think about skill and means? That's right, that's right, yeah. Yeah, and maybe he thought that, maybe he thought, maybe I'll ask him, please, the monks are starving, may I ask, and so, but he knew that, and this is the guy who threw water on him, so he knew this teacher pretty well, and probably figured he's never, I'll just wait till he goes to the village, you know? So, you know, you feel kind of his loving heart and his lack of self-concern and also willing, this knowingly and willingly, willingly taking the consequences.

[57:39]

And the skillful, it was skillful in that the monks got fed. You know, he found a way without... a lot of protection for himself. He just found a way to do it. So the rules, our guidelines, our shingi, sometimes they get turned upside down. And that's how to follow them. Compassion trumps... all the precepts. Sometimes we break or don't observe a precept out of compassion. So I think this, I kind of felt that it was coming from there. And so he took what was not given out of compassion and received the consequences without pouting or resentment.

[58:45]

And what came up for me was like, you know, go Fushan. And the other thing was, I think it's interesting that the abbot, Leishan, to me, he seemed like a quarter. And in some ways, he seemed like he is taking what's not for you. I mean, he's taking something actually given to the monks through the generosity of people donating food or like they're going to raise their own food. And yet he's hoarding it. He's not actually acting compassionately. So I just, I don't know, are these stories like that? I think, oh, what would Jesus do with fishes and loaves? Oh, you guys are starving, but this is my fish. Or like, you need to starve. I don't know. I just sort of would just like trigger something in me that I don't see that as masterful or that type of imposing this type of severity on people. This mortification of the body. I don't know. It's just like it's on the other side. Respect.

[59:55]

Well, I don't know about Guishang. Maybe, you know, whether he was hoarding or not, or whether he was thinking, this has got to last the entire winter here. We've got this many monks. It's going to get cold. Who knows? He was portioning it. We don't know. I mean, there's another story of a monk who, I mean, the teacher on a temple mountain who had certain, they divided the rice into 365 portions. Fuyo dokei? divided it into 365 portions. And he said, this is what we're going to eat every day. And if more monks come, we add water and make it, you know, make the rice be porridge. And if more monks come, we make it be watery gruel. That's what we got here, folks. So is that hoarding? What is it? And I don't know. I don't know enough about Guisheng, but this... did he have the ability to encourage monks who wanted to train with him.

[61:13]

Plenty of them probably ran away. Some people need that kind of and some people really don't. People have different karma consciousnesses and don't do well under 30 blows and all that stuff. They need, well, actually that's often said about Soto, you know, it's elder brother, a little more kindly, you know, not so much shouting and breaking legs and all that stuff. So I think each student needs to have the affinity with the teacher to be able to receive the teaching. So... I don't really know, yeah. I've been thinking about knowing and not knowing, and whether or not we should attempt to understand the words of these masters.

[62:16]

In the Mountain River Sutra, after he mentions, or after he gives the quote of the Blue Mountains walking, He goes on to kind of rail against a way of taking this phrase or any of these phrases as meaningless or as being nonsense. Yes, yes. And you had mentioned this earlier maybe in the first class about having hesitations about reading this. because it was kind of that diatribe, it seems to be mean to certain Buddhists for having this kind of view. And I'm wondering, I just want to know how you understand this take on that. Yeah. You know, it comes out of his circumstances, and I think...

[63:25]

There were monks, I think, that he met in China who kind of mouthed different things or said, oh, that's just a riddle. It's supposed to confuse your mind. And he's saying the sayings and doings of the Zen masters. It's not just gibberish that's meant to make you stop thinking. They're not gibberish to someone who has realized... their true self, it makes complete, it's completely expressing something true. So he does take umbrage, take issue with this, and it may have been some of the monks, this is one possibility, that some of the monks who went to study with him had that same view. So he rails at, not at them, but he rails at others. who did that, but it may have been about the people right in his community at the time. So it's hard to say what this teaching method of, it happens in various festivals that he, you know, that has a diatribe, yeah.

[64:40]

So... Can I ask a follow up question? Yes? So to what extent should we exert ourselves to understand the masters and understand their words, especially things like Blue Mountains walking, taking literally is quite absurd. How much should we really attempt to actually understand? Yeah. Well, I think exerting oneself fully, but not just with conceptually thinking about it, intellectualizing, But, you know, we've been talking about what mountains are and more and more blue mountains walking is, what's absurd is blue mountains standing still or only standing still. They stand still and they constantly walk. And the more you turn that and the more you sit with that and the more you let it turn in you,

[65:50]

This is exerting yourself fully to realize and to understand. And it may, you know, years from now, this has happened to me, years from now something will emerge and it's like, and I've been working on it in the dark for years, turning a phrase and staying close, but not, you know, not rejecting it, but also knowing I don't, what is it? What is it? So that kind of exerting yourself fully is recommended, I think. This image of the hot ball of iron stuck in your throat. You can't swallow it and you can't spit it out. In some ways that's zazen. Everything's like that. And as soon as we, you know there's this, from the Sandhya Nirmocana Sutra, they're talking about a thing and they say, what is a thing, what is a thing?

[67:04]

And then the answer is, it is that to which the Aryas have been fully awakened. That is the only answer to what is a thing. What is, it is that to which the Novo Ones have been fully awakened. And to think, I know what a thing is, or I know what anything is, is maybe the absurdity, right? So to stay on the turning away and not touching, what is that practice? And I think our... You know, in our... In our zazen and in our seshin practice we have this wonderful opportunity to settle, settle, settle the grasping mind and let go.

[68:08]

Let go, relax, let go and walk innocent. Let go of a hundred years, relax and walk innocent. when people asked him what it was about his mind or his process that allowed him to be such a genius.

[69:09]

And he said it was smoke. He used the Italian word for smoke. And he said that he loved the place right where you start to study something and you don't understand it at all. And he said that's the place where most people start trying to bring down the walls or kind of flail around where they don't understand. He said that's where I thrive. And it was in that place where you're trying to understand that you don't get it yet at all. And to me, that just seems so in alignment with Zen about, you know, I'm not a qualified label or anything. I'm just here with it. But at the same time, there's so many cases that you can see throughout history of people and rulers of religion and, you know, programs that people get into that are just so destructive that they rely upon people to be robots and automatons and just say yes, just do what we tell you to do. So how is it that you find that balance as a practitioner where you're engaging in a way to smoke?

[70:26]

So the Italian word for smoke is fumo? Si? So to sit in the smoke, to sit in that smoky and stay with it. Yay, Leonardo. I haven't heard that before. This can be used. You can take a Dharma phrase like, don't know is most intimate, and then don't ask questions, just do it, and have it be an unhealthy, unwholesome, bad thing, you know, and bad meaning unwholesome. So how is a practitioner to negotiate the way here? And, you know, the Buddha said, don't take it on authority, right? Don't take it because somebody else said it. Be a lamp unto yourself. You find out from your own realization, your own doing, your own practice. And then there's people that you check out

[71:28]

Are they a worthy being? Do they follow the precepts? Do they walk the talk, basically? But you have to watch. You can't just say, oh, they're the sitting in the high seat that means such and such. No, you have to see for yourself. How do they treat people? How do they treat themselves? So this don't know isn't cut off your ability to discern and discriminate or something. And at the same time, if all you're doing is trying to, if you never can enter something until it's all crossed T's and dotted I's, you'll never venture forth.

[72:32]

Because everything is fumo when you start, right? All practices are fumo. Yeah, I think just do what I say. You know, there's both sides to it. There's in the monastery, but already you've gotten to the monastery Because why? Because you're encouraged by the practice. That's how you got there, unless you were forced to be there or sent there. But that doesn't happen nowadays, right? Where you'd be sent to a nunnery or a monastery. So you, on your own, knowingly and willingly, applied to be here. So already something's resonating with you. There's affinity, it feels. And you might find out, if you go deep enough, that it doesn't, it's not what I thought. They're not clear enough.

[73:33]

They don't take care of themselves well enough or whatever. And you find another practice or another mountain or another teacher, maybe, which many of us have done, right? Let's end now and go for a walk in the mountains. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[74:17]

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