Good morning, everyone. Thank you for coming to the Green Gulch Dharma Talk today. Our talk today will be offered by the Zen priest and former longtime resident of Green Gulch, Kathy Fisher. She's in the Zendo now, offering incense and vows, and we'll take her seat shortly. When she does, we can join her in the opening verse. which I will put in the chat window now. As many of you know, we have a live transcription enabled. If you'd like to show or hide the subtitles, you should be able to do so from the CC or subtitle option on your device. ... [...]

[05:41]

A rainy day. What a blessing. The sound of the rain. I know this sound so well. the rain falling as we sit in this zendo. I just want to say a little bit. Am I in? Okay. I just want to say a little tiny bit about the 50 years of Green Gulch Farm. Just a little bit. I first came here about 50 years ago when it was new to Zen Center. And many experiments were underway.

[06:45]

I came with Ed Brown's brother and sister-in-law, Dwight and Judy. I looked after their two-year-old son, Aryeh. So they brought me over here and I did child care and they did whatever they did. And we trekked over from Berkeley, some of the Berkeley Zendo folks, to attend talks and to help out. Those first years. I attended my second session here. And it would have been 1973 or 74. We all slept in the Zendo. And didn't bathe for the week. And I remember a few years later I was here. And the Zendo reeked of garlic. The harvest of garlic was complete, and it was stored under us in the lower barn.

[07:50]

And not even the incense could compete with the garlic. I'm sure you've heard some of these stories, but there's one story that I still would like to tell you. Norman and I, so I lived here for about six months. in 1976, and then Norman and I went to Tassajara for four or five years or something like that with our twin sons. We came back here with those twin sons in 1980 or 81, and they left Green Gulch for college. One of our sons, Aaron, went to a small college in eastern California called Deep Springs. And Deep Springs was a very unusual college. There were, at that time, 26 male students total.

[08:55]

So 13 male students were admitted every year, and it was a two-year college. Everyone was on full scholarship, and everyone worked the cattle ranch. There were many operations going on having to do with cattle ranching and farming. So Aaron fit in perfectly. The Deep Springs College had a year round schedule, which meant that they were on for a couple of months and then they had like a two or three week break year round. So they would all these boys would find themselves. with a couple of weeks and nowhere to go and nothing to do. Some of them were, you know, their home was farther away. So Aaron, our son, would scoop them all up and bring them here, home to mom and dad at Green Gulch Farm. And so we'd wake up in the morning and there would be all these boys asleep all over the floor, you know, all under the table and in the hall and all over the place.

[10:04]

I say boys, they were 18 and 19. And one of these boys was Jiryu, who is now going to be your abbot. We feel proud that we introduced him to Green Gulch Farm in the first place, back when Aaron scooped up all his fellow students who needed some place to go and Came here. So. Let's begin. Where we always begin with a few breaths. The basics. So inhale. Allowing the body. to lift from the inside, refreshed and enlivened by air, by the earth's atmosphere.

[11:17]

On the exhale, allow yourself to fall into the earth, held by the earth, by the force of the Earth's gravity. Inhale the Earth's atmosphere, allowing the Earth's atmosphere, the volume and lightness to lift the body. Now exhale, falling into the Earth, allowing neck, shoulders, back muscles to relax and fall into the earth. Inhale the earth's atmosphere, allowing space in the body down to the belly, lifting the torso, the chest with breath,

[12:32]

now falling into the earth, letting go of everything. This is our practice of revering the ancestors, the earth and the atmosphere. When we walk outside in the day, we see sunlight. We don't actually see objects. We see light from the sun interacting with the surface of things. We don't see the things. We see the light. We have eyes that have evolved to see certain light in a certain way. And that is what we see. We walk in starlight, stepping on the earth, breathing the earth's atmosphere.

[13:39]

Nitrogen, oxygen produced by plants. All our food comes from plants or animals that eat plants. Plants eat sunlight, turn it into sugar. Plants drink water. and inhale CO2. They exhale oxygen. We inhale oxygen and exhale CO2. We require sugar and oxygen to live, like most all living things do. Our life is occurring in a web of these ancestors. I'm a scuba diver, and when I swim underwater, past sponges, anemones, sea stars, jellies, mollusks, fish, I feel their ancient heritage, and I feel their presence in my being.

[14:54]

You know, we share DNA with these animals. We evolve from them. from sponges, our first animal ancestor. On land, we walk on rock and soil, where the remains of our ancestors lie. Ashes, bones, shells, hair, nutrients incorporated in the earth's minerals. Sky stops at the soles of our feet. We walk through sky. We breathe sky. We are held by the Earth's gravity. We have a specific relationship with the Earth's gravity according to our mass in relation to the Earth's mass.

[15:59]

It is specific and it is personal. We are surrounded, formed, enlivened, held and refreshed by these ancestors, known and mostly unknown. Our very bodies are composed of these ancestors. For me, this is a lens, a mind lens, a language for understanding no self, in which we are a changing composition of ancestors.

[17:06]

And I don't even belong to me. We belong altogether to each other and to the earth and sky. I do not have control or ownership. Yet, I am my responsibility. Even though I am an ever-changing composition, I cannot shirk the responsibility given me as a body in this moment, this particular personal iteration of life on earth, this precious brief life on earth. I bear responsibility. for the whole of it, and certainly for my part of it. This is our Bodhisattva vow, to accept responsibility for my health and well-being on behalf of others, and for the work that is asked of me in this life.

[18:13]

So to add a little something here, a couple of weeks ago, I was in Mexico. And while in Mexico, I gave a whole bunch of talks in prisons in Guadalajara. And in one of the talks, one of the talks, there were 462 men in a stadium listening to my talk. I was so surprised. I managed to get them all to meditate for 10 minutes. And one man asked me a question afterwards. He said, do you have to know science to meditate? Because I'm always talking about gravity and atmosphere and fish and evolution and whatnot. And I realized, right. But what I... What I said to him is, absolutely not.

[19:26]

This is my language, and our practice is very personal. It really belongs to each of us. The language, the way we do this meditation, the way we arrange our bodies and minds is very personal and very specific, and it's very creative. So I said to him, no, you, it's just that this is my language. my language because I've spent so many years talking science and thinking science, and today you are stuck with a science teacher. So I say that to you too. Another story. When I was a little girl, I used to sing songs with my grandfather, songs from an old songbook he had. There was a song that I'm going to lay down my sword and shield down by the riverside, down by the riverside, down by the riverside.

[20:33]

I'm going to lay down my sword and shield down by the riverside. Going to study war no more. I ain't going to study war no more. So we sang this and other songs each time we visited. And it was always a special occasion for me. When I was older, I came to understand that my father, who had been stationed in Xi'an, China, during World War II. Xi'an, China is the Tang Dynasty imperial capital, Chang'an. So he was stationed there. He was in the Flying Tigers defending China against Japan. He'd come home from that war and found work as an aeronautical engineer, part of the military industrial complex in Los Angeles in the 50s through the 70s.

[21:34]

He had two older brothers, and these were the three sons of my grandfather, my uncles. One joined the CIA after World War II, and he was stationed in Japan and Korea, and Vietnam. The other brother was a nuclear physicist who worked on the Manhattan Project in Los Alamos, New Mexico. These were very nice people, especially my dad, gentle, funny, and caring person who was born at a certain historical moment in which national pride and defense of democracy, et cetera, was a primary source of inspiration for that generation. These were not politically conservative people. When I realized what my father's and his brother's work was in my early teens, I knew this was not my inspiration in life.

[22:47]

I wanted to live differently. I wanted to turn the tide. I ain't gonna study war no more. And that is why and how I came to Zen practice over 50 years ago. And that is central to how I practice Zen. I ain't gonna study war no more. And this is the spirit in which I wanna talk now about the practice of respect. and extending the practice of respect to all beings and all our own funky, troubling, troublesome, dangerous, and ugly human capacities. The practice of respect does not depend on the worthiness of the person, including this person. The practice of respect

[23:52]

for whatever arises, whomever appears in front of us, is our practice. It's the practice of respect for life, for being, for ancestors. We can respect our more difficult human capacities, like anger, jealousy, fear, and all the rest. Why? Because... I ain't going to study war no more, inside or outside. I've been thinking lately about an interesting expression that I've heard in various contexts. Our better selves. Here's a quote from Nancy Pelosi. We must call out what is wrong and call on our better selves. To make things right. Our better selves.

[24:55]

It implies our worse selves. Which would be anger, jealousy, fear, resentment, judgment, etc. But in the spirit of I ain't going to study war no more. How would it be to respect these things? not turn them into the enemy, not try to swat them down like war games. How about respecting them, accepting them, giving them space? Why? Because that is the activity of our better selves. How about if I refrain from letting my worst selves slap each other down and get in fistfights? Our practice is respectful, steady, rooted, patient, kind, discerning, and compassionate.

[26:03]

And through this practice, we see the suffering inherent in our worst selves. And we also see their changing nature. So steadily, patiently, we stay rooted. and allow them to change, to rise and fall into the earth. It's not that we divide ourselves up into better and worse selves. I've just been exploring that expression, our better selves, trying it on. For me, the opportunity here is to understand that human beings have a wide range of capacities and behaviors, some beneficial, some harmful, and it isn't always easy to tell the difference. But each and every capacity and behavior is worthy of our respect.

[27:06]

Anger and fear, part of our emergency alert system, as is pain. We don't want to get rid of anger and fear or pain. When anger arises, we can offer respect. And at the same time, we can refrain from reactivity, from judgment, from self-righteousness, the repetitive narrative, but not until we recognize it for what it is, a capacity for every human. and most animals to defend and protect themselves from harm. Think of the evolutionary wisdom in that. So that's the first step, and that step is approached by the practice of respect. The practice of respect offers us some space, a moment.

[28:09]

Maybe we won't be as easily sucked into that repetitive narrative, fueled by the energy of anger. In this space, maybe we can notice the energy of anger in our breathing, our heart rate, the heat in our face, racing thoughts, the practice of respect, of respecting each and every thought and feeling that arises. Each and every person we meet is our practice. The practice of respect is how we carry ourselves forth. And this way, we're not so easily fooled by what arises, like jealousy or anger. And not being fooled, we come to understand the harm that can come of engaging these feelings. So we make an effort to refrain from engaging that repetitive narrative.

[29:14]

refrain from engaging in mental warfare out of our vow not to harm. Ain't going to study war no more. That difficulties arise is true for each one of us. No one gets a free pass from difficult thoughts and feelings or from their stickiness, such that before we know it, we are riding the narrative. His, her, their fault, this, that cause, why is it always me, et cetera, et cetera. And this is why we recite the verse of atonement. All my ancient twisted karma, from beginningless greed, hate, and delusion, born through body, speech, and mind, I now fully avow.

[30:15]

The verse says, this ancient twisted karma is what I am, what all of us are, have always been, yet I take responsibility as my own. For us, this is like taking a bath. We are awakened and refreshed. Like a bath, it is done over and over again. And there will never be a final time of reciting this verse when all twisted karma will be fully confessed and atoned for. Just like there will never be that one bath, which is so thorough that all future bathing won't be necessary. And just as we aren't embarrassed or ashamed that we need to bathe regularly, We don't need to be embarrassed or ashamed or guilt-ridden by our ancient twisted karma.

[31:24]

Our ancient twisted karma is our nature, our DNA, our survival. So we come back over and over to chant this verse, like inhaling and exhaling. It is the verse of our better selves, fully cognizant, patient, respectful, and compassionate for our worst selves. I want to talk a little about our sixth Chinese ancestor, Hui Neng. He was a major influence at a turning point for Zen in China, and he contributed the core elements of our Fusatsu ceremony. beginning with the verse of atonement. Kuenang is credited for founding what is called the southern school of Buddhism, which is tagged not very accurately as the sudden school, as opposed to the gradual school of the north.

[32:32]

This description is a case of the victor rewriting history, so a note to self. What has come from Hui Nung and his life is extremely valuable and helpful to us. But there's a lot of legendary truth here. All Zen sects today come from Hui Nung's line. The difference between the sudden and gradual schools, is expressed in the two famous verses composed by Huenang and Shenqiu. Shenqiu is the main disciple of Huenang's teacher, Hongran. There will not be a quiz.

[33:34]

So Hongran, very famous teacher of a very large monastery with hundreds and hundreds of monks, friendly with the imperial palace. located in the imperial capital Chang'an, where my father was stationed over 1,200 years later. So Hongran's disciple, his main disciple, was Shen Xiu. His interloper disciple was Huinang. And the verses go like this. Shen Xiu describes the Buddha way as a continual refining and purifying process. The body is a Bodhi tree. The mind is like a standing mirror. Always try to keep it clean. Don't let it gather dust. So Hui Nung responds to that verse, expressing his understanding that we are all already in this moment enlightened beings and refutes the duality of pure and defiled.

[34:40]

He says, Bodhi doesn't have any trees. This mirror doesn't have a stand. Our Buddha nature is forever pure. Where do you get this dust? So this launched a radical change in Zen culture and practice in China. That is the practice of these two different doctrinal understandings which had been brewing for a few centuries. That, along with catastrophic historical events, led to the development of of Chinese Zen Buddhist culture with agrarian-based temples and monasteries and monks wandering the mountains from temple to temple, meeting each other, the culture that we know. So back to the verse of atonement and the so-called sudden schools. We atone for wandering off, seeking special rewards.

[35:43]

wishing things were different from how they are. And we atone for indulging ourselves in repetitive narratives of anger, of fantasy. We do this over and over again, each time suddenly, completely, energetically, with utmost sincerity, because that is, in fact, who we are and where we live. Our true self is our better self. Everyone, without exception, wanders off because we are human. And we have such an array of human capacities. More than we can handle. More than we know what to do with. But we can do this. We can show up on each moment, fresh and sudden. See ourselves clearly.

[36:45]

and atone for our many foibles. Seeing our life as it is in this present moment, returning to our life as it is in each moment, as we say, showing up for life in each moment, is Hway Nung's teaching. So, our present day understanding of these things is not either or. In our present day understanding, we do polish the mirror. Not because we have a problem or make an enemy of dust. We don't need to declare war on dust. It's not about the dust. It's that we are mirror polishers by nature. It's what we do. We bow and recite verses.

[37:47]

We take baths. We return to this moment startling and vivid, inhaling the earth's atmosphere, exhaling, falling into the earth, restoring our place in the web of ancestors. share with you a couple of Huenang's famous verses. This is the triple refuges of Huenang. For Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha, he uses the words enlightenment, truth, and purity. So enlightenment for Buddha, truth for Dharma, and purity for Sangha. We take refuge in enlightenment and the best of two-legged creatures.

[38:50]

We take refuge in truth and the best of what transcends desire. We take refuge in purity and the best of congregations. And he further says, I urge you all to take refuge in the three treasures. of your own nature, enlightenment, truth, and purity. It's these lines that set me off thinking about our better selves, the best of two-legged creatures. Another verse of Hui Nung's Taking Refuge in the Three Buddha Bodies. Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya, Nirmanakaya. And his verse beautifully conveys this sense of just this, just right here, over and over again.

[39:57]

I take refuge in the pure body Buddha, in my own material body. I take refuge in the myriad fold transformation body Buddha. in my own material body. I take refuge in the future and perfect realization body Buddha in my own material body. You know, many Buddhist sutras are set in a fantastical, mystical, and magical land. one laden with jewels and mythical creatures, huge people with huge chairs, albino animals. And we may think that we're supposed to find this place, experience this world as it is described.

[40:57]

Yet here, Hui Nung says, all this in my own material body. This is where we live. not in hopes and dreams and fantasies of special places, not in repetitive narratives, right here, together, just us, as we are, fresh and suddenly present again and again. Our practice is simple and immense, returning over and over to just this, Inhaling the earth's atmosphere, shared by all being. Exhaling, falling into earth, shared by all being. Exchanging sun's energy with all being, all the time. Whether we notice or not, we are held, nourished, and enlightened in this shared web.

[42:08]

of ancestors. Thank you very much. Thank you. I vow to enter them.

[43:14]

But as great as I'm supposed to, I vow to come. Now, do I understand that we talk together? Anyone online would like to ask a question? And I also understand that the kitchen must leave. Thank you for cooking for us. Please put any questions or comments in a chat message to Kundalaj Sendo. And if there's time, your question will get read out in the Sendo. She'll start with questions from the hall. and how your science comes through and when you're speaking up and reading and practice in general.

[44:52]

And yeah, I really, it's a bit for what you're here. Thank you, Suki. Dear old friend, Suki was my crew leader. You were the head of the sewing crew at Tassahara in 1976. When Norman and I were there, I was pregnant. We were each sewing a quilt. All the quilts later burned up in the fire. I remember that so dearly. Yes. Question from the online sangha. Thank you for speaking about being compassionate for worst selves collectively. How do we offer respect to those who are harming themselves?

[45:54]

We do our best. When we are harming ourselves, we, in our practice, have the opportunity to pause, take a breath, and see, oh, I'm harming myself. What is that? What is that? And, you know, the way I'm speaking about ain't going to study war no more. For me, it is no help to then turn on myself, turn against myself and say, oh, my gosh, I've been doing this my whole life. When am I going to get over it? So tiresome and annoying and destructive and blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, to me, that's just no help. So for me, the practice of respect.

[47:07]

is a practice of energy and steadiness. And so in the midst of energy and steadiness, for me, I have a better chance of discerning. What is this? What is this? And and not distancing myself from this. So that is how I think of this practice that I'm talking about today. And then we know that we are not different from other. So when we, I mean, it's so hard these days, we all know this, in the setting that we find ourselves in this moment in human history, it's so hard to feel

[48:08]

connected to others, to all others. But that's our practice. How are we going to do that? It's very specific. It's very personal. And it's very moment by moment. I think that's all I can say about that. Does anybody in the room have anything to Offer, contribute in any way. Just raise the old hand. Thank you for your talk. I was just thinking about how prisons are in a way like seeing people at their moment of their work selves and saying that because of that moment they took me in a cage.

[49:09]

You know, I can't quite understand you. Can you just put your mask down while you speak? I don't know if that's okay. Okay. Just thinking about prisons and how they respond to people in their worst selves moment and try to freeze them there or put them in a cage because of actions from, you know, that place. And yeah, to me, that doesn't feel right. And I'm just curious if you can speak to what it's like to bring the Dharma into prisons and how you, yeah, how that is. So this was the first time I'd ever been in a prison. And I went for three consecutive days and gave like six Dharma talks to various groups. from maximum security to all kinds of people. And Mexican prisons are no joke.

[50:18]

The depth of corruption in Mexican prisons is unlike what we have in this country. I'm not saying we don't have corruption in this country, but it's a particular problem. amount of corruption and the upshot of that is that mostly people in Mexican prisons are poor because if they have money they can get out and so and this is what I've been told this I mean you know I spent three days in Mexican prisons I'm not an expert at all but this is what people told me who work there that most people who are in prison were basically had no choice in their life. And I heard story after story about how, you know, an 11 year old boy was response, found himself responsible for supporting his family, his mother and, and little brothers and sisters.

[51:24]

And he was offered a job and meet to a con and he went there and it turned out that it was, you know, he was handed a machine gun and that was his job. And, So he's in prison. Um, and story after story of children raised in a situation where there was no choice other than survival or not survival. So in that setting, what my own experience was, and those, those, what I just said is stories that people told me. And I, like I said, I, you know, I, I could not mean I was just there for three days. Um, But what I did experience is people in that setting were absolutely open to someone treating them with kindness and respect. I mean, apparently that's not their everyday experience.

[52:27]

And someone coming along and treating them with respect and kindness and trying to help. was my experience that they appreciated that. It was very tender. A friend of mine and possibly some of yours, Onchi, who was at Tassajara for a number of practice periods, invited me to Guadalajara to visit the prisons. And that is what he's been doing for the last two or three years. He's been mostly working in prisons. So he has meditation groups going. He's very careful to steer clear of religious content because most people in Mexico are pretty devout Catholics, or at least Catholic. I don't know how about devout. So it's more of a mindfulness training, but it's a meditation training, and people are really responding to it because it's helping their life.

[53:41]

So anyway, I may have lost track of your question, but did I? Yeah. Well, that was a huge challenge for people my age. What's the family do with this strange offspring? So for me, I had a brother who was trying to avoid going to Vietnam.

[54:53]

And he was hiding and running away and getting himself into all kinds of trouble. So my parents were really worried and focused on my brother. And I looked funny, but I went to college. I lived in Berkeley and went to college. I went to UC Berkeley and I married a nice Jewish man. I'm not Jewish, but anyway, they liked that. And then I produced two sons. That was helpful. So my parents were on board to the best of their ability. I have pictures of my mother taking pictures of Norman and me on On the day that we were ordained priests, she's holding one of the babies. Our sons were two. She's holding a baby and taking a picture of her bald daughter. I was always grateful that they had the imagination and they could open their hearts to that possibility.

[56:03]

But that was not the usual story. There was a lot of difficulty. Among families at that time. Anybody else in the room want to speak up? Anybody online? What about the concern that respect is enabling of evil or bad?

[57:10]

That's the question. What about is respect enabling of evil or bad? Well, for me, what we would call, what I would call evil or bad is not static. Like everything else, it's changing. It transforms. You know, I was a schoolteacher for a long time. I taught seventh grade. You see a lot of transforming beings at that age. You know. A lot of. Should we call it antisocial behavior? And. That what was. always striking to me with seventh graders, and I kind of feel like none of us really got past that stage.

[58:19]

You know, sometimes they would come on really tough, you know, really kind of oppositional and tough. And it wouldn't take much to kind of poke through that. I had many experiences talking to my seventh grade class about people with disabilities, what they go through. being alone in the world and being isolated and ignored and looking up and seeing tears rolling down the faces of seventh grade boys, you know, not what you usually think about with seventh grade boys, but, you know, it doesn't, their hearts are right there. They're right there. And, you know, their behaviors, which are sometimes very dangerous and destructive, are, you know, They're always changing and one can always work with them. One can always hope to work with them because, of course, we know that that's not always the case.

[59:25]

But, you know, for me, we don't give up on anybody. You know, we don't give up on anybody. We might give ourselves a break and them a break, but we don't give up. So I guess in short, I would say that, you know, I'm not sure if I support the idea that there is evil, there is bad as a static. as a static existent state. I don't think I would support that. There is certainly the manifestation of danger and all the things that we can name, manipulation and all the stuff that we're trying to figure out how to absorb these days.

[60:32]

But to see it as static and existent, For me, it's not helpful. And I would love to hear what anyone else says about that. Yes. Thank you. we say goodbye, or should we sit and listen to the rain?

[61:38]

You mentioned that all of your uncles were involved in the medicine industry, and I'm curious how you held that, and if you found yourself trying to convince them I didn't, when I was that age, I was, you know, a teenager. I wasn't, I probably spoke to my father about the fact that he was encouraging my brother to go to war. And I was very much opposed to that. You know, I also realized at the time that my father's experience of war, I mean, for that generation, he was very sheltered. So he grew up in Oakland with his brothers in Berkeley.

[62:50]

And it was a very sheltered family, very kind of conservative, socially conservative, not politically, sheltered family. And from there, he was shipped off to China. And, you know, his brothers were, one brother was shipped off to Los Alamos, you know, which was a very exciting place to be at that time. And it was the, you know, it was the source of inspiration and joy in their lives, that experience. And it couldn't really be touched, at least not by me. I think later, I remember I was driving in the car with my dad and he said, He was a pretty quiet person, and he said, Kathy, I now realized that we were wrong to be in Vietnam. And it was like, whoa, the ground just shook. For him to make that statement was tremendous.

[63:53]

But it was, you know, it was a long process and a long journey. series of events that changed his mind and maybe my conversations had something to do with it but maybe not i don't know In the midst of what? Yeah, yeah. Well, of course, the difficulty we have is that anger, say, anger arises when we don't need it.

[65:00]

There's no benefit. It's more of a habitual thing. And that's certainly true with jealousy. And I've been thinking about jealousy a lot. Like, where does jealousy come from? Because it's very universal among not only humans, but animals. And, you know, there must be some kind of herd phenomena whereby members of the herd have to keep an eye on each other to see who's, you know, in terms of resources and strength and so on, and keep up with the group because anyone who falls out of the group is in danger. I don't know. I'm thinking about it in that way, though. But the point for us is that... these things arise when they're not needed. I mean, you know, I'm not going to, I don't have to worry about being, you know, excluded from the herd. Exactly.

[66:02]

You know, it's just kind of an impulse, a repetitive, you know, impulse. And so we can deal with that sometimes like, like any repetitive impulse that we have, you know, we, when, when once again, we start, we notice that we are tensing up somewhere in our body. We, you know, when we practice, when we do this practice, our, we will put our attention there. We'll, we'll notice that we'll say, Oh, okay. There's some tension. I'll breathe. No, I'll allow. that tension to fall into the earth. And it's the same with thoughts and feelings. You know, a thought comes up of anger towards someone, anger toward myself, or anger toward a situation, say. And the anger can come up.

[67:05]

I can see what that is. I can see that moment. And with my breath, I can allow it to fall away. I mean, that's the basis of our practice, to just allow it to arise and allow it to fall away. And in addition to that, we are discerning creatures. So there's the discernment part, like, oh, you again. Hello. Over and over again. Does that answer your question sort of? You know, I think of...

[68:10]

I think of Zen practice communities, Zen communities as like artist colonies. Because it's so odd that we are so formal when we stand up and walk around, you know, our hands, our feet, everything is just so, and we walk on this side and on that side, we step in with a certain foot, you know, there's all these, you know, rules and forms. But when we sit down in our cushion, Not much. There's not a lot of, definitely not step-by-step, you know, specific instruction for what we're doing here. And I've always thought that that's because we're a bunch of artists. We're a bunch of crazy artists. And we know what we're doing. It's just maybe not the same of what everybody else is doing. And we are creating it. We are inventing it and creating it as we go. And we are comparing our experience with each other.

[69:15]

We are supporting each other in holding the space as well as bringing up what this practice is. So just like artists, we kind of get ideas from each other, but we're doing our own work. Everybody's doing their own work, their own experience. creative work. I think we have come to the end according to this clock. So thank you so much for your time and attention and for holding this beautiful Zendo and her Green Gulch Farm all these years. And thank you everyone for coming online to the Dharma Talk today.

[70:34]

I'm putting a link and a note in the chat now. If you feel able to make a donation, in addition to your kind, respectful presence today at the talk, please know that you're ready to depend on and appreciate those donations. You can follow the link to give. And if you would like to come on and say goodbye, you're welcome to do so now. Feel free to unmute. Thank you. Thank you. Goodbye, everyone. Thank you very much. Bye, everyone. Thank you. Bye. Thank you. Thank you. Where's the link? Thank you. Where is the link? The link? It's in the chat. Let's see. I'll send it again. Does that pop up as a chat message? Yeah. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Kathy. Thank you, Kathy. you.

[71:40]

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