This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good morning. The other day when the lecture, when the schedule changed and there wasn't lecture, it hadn't been announced the day before and a couple people didn't know if I was sick or what exactly happened so we're so used to having the schedule posted and announced and notified that that might have been a slight disturbance I'm not sure I think in the past, in the middle of a nine-day sitting, there's been a not doing a lecture and having some quiet and then taking up again the talks.

[01:14]

So with that in mind, I just wanted to say, if the, you know, feels okay about it, something about some things that are coming up in the next days. one thing that's going to happen right after Thanksgiving is three or four people connected with Soto Shu, Soto School, will be coming down to Tassajara to do some filming. Soto Shu is making a film about Zen in, I don't know if it's just North America or if it's other countries, and they had wanted to come down earlier, and it had been agreed upon, but then when the practice period started late, it seemed like there was enough, you know, shake up of the schedule and all, and then to have this film crew come.

[02:27]

So we told them, Let's do it next year when everything's settled, come in the spring. But we ended up working out a time for them. It's a day and a half, November 27th. I think they arrive and then film. And one thing they're going to be filming, which I'm really happy about actually, is an oreo-yoke meal. If you feel okay about it, actually. If you don't want to be in the meal at that time, that's... you are welcome to withdraw. But that's something I actually looked into, having Orioki filmed at Greenwich and talked with a film crew that had done some work with another nonprofit. And they came for the meal. They did Orioki entrees with Orioki tables and joined the meal. And afterwards, they said it would be $10,000 to do the filming.

[03:29]

That, you know, is a professional group, so that's what it takes. But here we have a substitute coming, and they're bringing a video present. And I think we get to use the footage afterwards. I think that's our arrangement. So that would be good to have some documentation in the year 2016. what a reyogi was like here at Tasahara. Speaking of reyogi, oh, but back to the schedule. The other thing I wanted you to know, which isn't on the schedule, is I will be going up for three days. There was a mix. I was supposed to do a baby blessing when I was up the last time, but there was a mix-up. with the parents of the baby, the new baby, and so I'm going to do the ceremony on December 3rd, and I'll probably go up, looks like I'll probably go up on the 1st and back on the 3rd in time for Nanju.

[04:46]

So that's not on the schedule, and I wanted you to know that. And the 3rd schedule thing, I think it's okay to mention this, For our Thanksgiving Day, it's a pretty open schedule, including the meal, and various people will be in the kitchen, of course, and doing prep for the ceremony, the Thanksgiving ceremony, the altar and all. And then there's kind of an early afternoon, big dinner, and then the suppertime, is open kitchen, her leftovers put out, and then in the evening we'll have what we call mid-practice period ceremony. We have reached the midpoint of our 98th practice period. Someone mentioned the day that was actually exactly the midpoint, and traditionally or customarily we have a kind of ceremony which includes

[05:54]

things that you might want to offer to the community by way of music or recitations or dance or skits. So I hope I won't ruin the rest of your session as you begin thinking, oh, skit to skit. But I did want to, because it's very soon after we have personal day, work day, Thanksgiving, and that night, will be mid-practice period ceremony. I think those were the scheduled things I wanted to mention. So about Uryoki, you know, the tea ceremony is very connected with Zen. In fact, Jashan, the teacher who I mentioned yesterday, who Lu Po, Lu Po's about to die, and then Lu Po says to Yang Song, you should, you know, you should be aware of what my teacher said, and his teacher was Jashan, and then he recites, before the eyes, there are no things.

[07:12]

The meaning is before the eyes. Anyway, this teacher, Jashan, was, as far as people can tell, one of the first Zen teachers who made a close, association between tea ceremony and Zen and the intimacy between those two practices. And what he said about it was Zen tea. Zen tea. One taste. That was his description of tea and Zen and you know, our oryoki, which we've been doing day after day for all these days, I was thinking about tea ceremony. And those of you who've practiced tea at the beginning of a tea ceremony class, the teacher and the students, and I can't remember what it is in Japanese, but they say, we will make our efforts

[08:22]

You know, we will completely sincerely make our effort for this class to learn together, to practice together. And it's stated before the class. Everybody says, well, we're going to do this together. And that's how I've been thinking about oryoki. I know that the Dohams have been working to pick up the tempo of the meal and And everyone has to help with that, you know, if those who are being served are not ready for when the servers come or taking a long time with eating or cleaning because maybe, I don't know for what reason, but somehow letting go of mindfulness and kind of forgetting, Sometimes when I do oryoki, and this happens with driving also, like driving from the city to Gringold, which I do a lot, and back and forth, I'll set off from city center, and all of a sudden I'm on the Golden Gate Bridge.

[09:36]

It's like how, I don't remember going through all those streets, stopping at stop signs, making right turn signals. It's like, oh, how did I get there? And oryoki can be that way too. This morning, in fact, I looked at my Buddha bowl, there was no more cereal. And I thought, where did it go? Who ate that? I really, really do not remember, like, taking the last bite, setting it down. Where was I? Who was eating? And that can happen also with doing all the other things, like how did my utensils get in the sets away? I don't remember. And just doing it was... You know, it's a combination of kind of no mind, you know, and lost in thought, or I don't know what it is, but that can affect the meal, I think, if we're lost in thought. So, and then we have the kitchen who's serving up and preparing the pots, and so completely involved in the meal.

[10:45]

I mean, the source of the food is... servers are picking it up. And then my sense of the servers is they move swiftly and silently. That was kind of my phrase for it. And it's, the food is getting cold. You know, if it sits open for a long time, the soup will get cold. So there's a swiftness, but then you want to become, with each person no hurry you could be with them all day serving them exactly what they want so that kind of feeling with each person and then up and swiftly and silently on to the next or to get the next pot so the rhythms and the intimacy and the kind of one taste of everybody is needed to have the meal meal ceremony.

[11:48]

It said, I haven't found the source of it, I heard this actually from Ed Brown, that cultures, societies that have a lot of ritual around eating have less eating disorders and those kinds of things around food. And I the amount of care and the chanting and the, you know, getting just what you want and then the spaces between eating and getting seconds that allows us to really come in touch and contact from an inner sensory realm of when when we have had just the right amount. The name Oriyuki means just enough, just appropriate amount, just the right amount, just enough.

[13:00]

And when we have a conceptual idea of what's enough or what's a good amount, it can get in the way of actually what we feel from the inside. And I've found with Oriyuki sometimes, you know, you eat from the first bowl, but you don't finish it all up. And then the second, some of the third, then you go around again for second, third, finish up. And I will notice when I get to the third bowl, first time around, I actually, you know, I could maybe stop there. It feels what I call just right tummy feeling. It's like it feels... light but full, and the satiation of hunger. But then I've got more in my bowls, you know. And I think you all know the phrase, and many of you know the phrase, my eyes are bigger than my stomach, which we lose.

[14:09]

This can happen, you know, the deliciousness, the smells, viewing some delicious, or just being hungry and seeing whatever the food is, and then feeling you want more, that you can actually comfortably, not that you can't digest it, but that it's over the comfort level, slightly, you know. So what I've found is that it becomes more and more precise in some way to what the body needs and wants. And here's breath deviation, you know, you can feel it. And this, so Oryoki is a way to work with our meals and old habits, really, I think, around food.

[15:13]

or ways we grew up around food. It really, it's so, it's such an unusual way to eat, really. And we can freshly engage with food as dharma and our own attachments. And just like it says in the chant, you know, we eat to support life, to get closer and closer to that. and feeling what that feels like the rest of the day. Also, for me, being at Tassara, I really feel hungry when the meal comes. Maybe I mentioned this before when we were doing karaoke instruction, but when there's lots of food around and snacking and having a cappuccino in the middle of the day, or a couple of them, the meal comes.

[16:13]

You don't even know if you're hungry or not. It's just 6 o'clock and the bell's ringing. But for oryoki, you know, often when the umpan goes, I begin to salivate, which means getting ready for food because you're hungry. And when seconds come around, I check, am I still salivating or has that shifted? So it's engaging with this area of my life that hasn't been so easy, you know, in a wonderful way by practicing this ceremony. This Harris-Breath deviation or coming very close to our sensory experience rather than some

[17:16]

or idea of what we're supposed to eat or have or feel like. As I was walking over here, I was reminded for the lecture this morning of Charlotte Selfer. And some of you I know have practiced her practice of sensory awareness. Charlotte Selfer was a woman from Germany, and she, along with Elsa Gidlow, kind of came up with, I think Elsa Gidlow was her teacher, and then Charlotte took this on of practicing very, very intimately and precisely and, what should I say, freshly with our bodies and our senses.

[18:21]

And she met Tsuzukiroshi, and he felt her practice was very close to Zen, very resonant with Zen. And he invited her to teach at Zen Center. And she was the first person to do workshops here. Now we have, all summer long, we have so many workshops, Yoga Zen and everything, poetry and But Charlotte was the first person to do anything at Tassajara. And in fact, she donated money to build a little retreat space, the yurt, which was taken down when we did the new retreat hall. And when she came in the summers, she was already, from my point of view, an old, old lady. She was 75. She died at 102. Still teaching. Still teaching. So when she came to Tussara at 75, I really thought, this is such an old person, you know.

[19:27]

But when I saw her walking, she looked like a little, like a five-year-old. She had a kind of, can you say, a lilt in her walkabouts, a kind of lightness in her gait. and sparkle in her eye, and everything delighted her. You know, she was, I remember she got up, she was brought in. I can't remember what my job was at the time. I was greeting her, maybe I was shika or something. And this blue jay, which we had been having a lot of trouble with that summer, in fact, someone's job was blue jay catcher. They were just, they were really overrunning. So we had the blue jay catcher, and they were capturing blue jays and carrying them out over the road in boxes. Anyway, so Charlotte came down. She got out of the car, and the blue jay, of which the gazillion was squawking, and she said, Oh, the beautiful blue jay.

[20:34]

The beautiful blue bird, she said, blue bird. And I remember thinking, Yeah, you should only know about the blue jay. out of hand. But, you know, she, I remember that, just the light with sensory experience, you know, visuals and sound. So that lightness, especially from the back, like walking behind her, where you couldn't see how old she was, you wanted to know. And she would do, people would come down, to work with her guests, but also she'd do things for the students. And I remember this one. She worked very intuitively. She didn't have, like, a set. We're going to do this. It doesn't matter what you want or what's sort of unfolding here. I got my list. It was just responding to the group.

[21:36]

Some of them were extremely slow I would get a little frustrated I couldn't get into it you know I felt I resisted I was resisting but this one person was a very upset person at Tassar that summer and angry and really remember her body was very held really tightly a lot of tension in her face and shoulders, and she was saying something to Charlotte about how she couldn't do something. And there was this bucket of water there, and Charlotte took the bucket and poured it over this person's head. And the person was like sputtering, and then they started to laugh, and we all started to laugh, and it like Everything had changed, and this person just let go of the whole thing down there, and just really didn't know where to go from there.

[22:48]

He was stopped and opened, you know, to just life. So, there's a few words about Charlotte Silver. She also was going deaf. and at the end was deaf and blind, and she would teach wearing these big earphones, and you'd speak into a light because she couldn't hear. So she was losing her senses, and at the end, you know, but did not lose any delight, you know, in each person, and had so much respect for each person's effort, you know, to do the practices she was offering. So that lightness of body, which I saw and responded to and wondered, you know, how is it possible as such an old lady, even though at 75, you know, that's not that old,

[24:03]

Now I know. It's not really that old, or it doesn't have to be. I think some people are old at 20, you know, but anyway. And thinking about our zazen and the lightness and relaxation in our posture, not holding our bodies with tenseness, conceptual idea of what we're supposed to be looking like in our cross-legged sitting or supine zazen or in our chair, some idea that we're then pushing and holding our body to make that shape. So the tenseness, which I mentioned earlier in the seshin, of holding the body and holding, you know, that I experienced in a kind of strained position of upright, which is, I have to work with all the time.

[25:20]

Like right now in this talk, I can feel myself going up, up into that, which makes it, you can hear it in my voice, my voice gets strained. So this, allowing the body to be held by life, really, rather than holding it with some idea of, I associate mine with being a good girl, you know, being a shining practice bodhisattva, good student, kind of, very connected with that. And of course that has all sorts of histories, you know, to make up for being a bad girl by being a good girl and all sorts of stuff. All that's in there. And that's just tenseness. A lot of tenseness.

[26:22]

Suzuki Roshi, there's this lecture where he says something about not throw yourself, that's token. Doken is throw yourself into the house of the Buddha. not just in sasen, I think in our lives, just, you know, just give up and throw yourself in the house of the Buddha. And Suzuki Roshi said something, I think it was about sasen, rest in the lap of your mother. Oh, I know what he said. At your mother's bosom. So for me that's, you know, that's kind of an art type, you know, nursing. You know, a Madonna, you know, holding, being held. But he was talking about the Buddha, you know. Rest in the Buddha's lap. And be rocked.

[27:25]

You don't have to hold yourself in any shape, you know, to be a good girl. You can just relax and be rocked. So in our body, there's these muscles that are, in Alexander technique, they call them outer muscles that are used for doing things and lifting and carrying and all sorts of stuff. And when we use those muscles to take a shape, take our zazen posture shape, whatever it may be, there's strain there and not this light and relaxed yet firm posture. And there are other muscles that are called inner muscles. that are very close to the bone, that support in an inner way her bones, and to be supported by those muscles.

[28:53]

We do need muscles. I mean, if we had no muscle tone, let's say, we couldn't sit upright. There's to come from or to be aware of, as I've been talking about, the inner sensory feelings, what's going on, inner sort of like in Oriyaki, this what does my tummy actually feel like? Is that enough food or not? Can I feel that? And sometimes we can't, we can't tell. because we've lost that ability. So if we try to lengthen our spine by pulling up on it, which we often say straighten your back, lengthen the spine.

[30:00]

from the outside with an idea of it, there will be a tension. But to lengthen the spine from the inside, allowing it to elongate from the inside, what does that feel like? And the subtlety of that. I was reminded as I was fixing my robe of one of my favorite fairy tales, which is about the princess and the pea. which I told in Sashi before, I think, but as I was tucking in my rose, I know that if even a tiny little fold of the cloth is under this one part of my leg, the sciatica gets pressure and it begins to go down. So I have to smooth out like every last wrinkle or... feel it and it's you know if I were to measure that wrinkle I don't know how it would how big it would be you know what how much what's the height of a couple uh pieces of cloth folded you know but it's like this enormous problem you know to start feeling the sciatic nerve and for those of you who know the princess and the pea they were trying to that the king and queen wanted to

[31:30]

their son, the prince, to marry a real princess. And so they kind of said, anybody who is a real princess, come and we'll test you and you might be chosen to be the new, you know, marry the prince. So they would bring the various people, applied for the job, they came to the castle and they would be brought into this room with these mattresses all the way up to the ceiling. And that was where they were to sleep that night. Well, underneath the bottom mattress was a pea, you know, uncooked pea, I think. Like a split pea that was stuck under the mattress. And then these applicants would sleep there and they'd say, how did you sleep last night, my dear? And the The person would say, it could be a young man or young woman wanting to marry the prince.

[32:37]

They would say, I slept so comfortably. It was so lovely. Thank you so much. It was such a beautiful, cushy, wonderful arrangement with all those majesties. And they'd say, okay, well, goodbye and see you later. And then the next one would comment, And the same thing in the morning, oh, so comfortable, thank you. Well, one day in the story, I know it was a woman, but it could be a man, was shown to the bedroom to stay the night. And in the morning they said, how did you sleep in there? And she said, thank you for asking. I don't know what to say. It was a lovely room and so many beautiful mattresses and all. But I just, all night on, I just couldn't get comfortable. There was something, something that was behind me. And they said, you're the one. You're the true.

[33:39]

A true one. You know, a hair's breadth deviation. So, there was a big celebration after that. That's how it can feel, I think, in finding our posture or our ryoki just enough to be that intimate with what's happening with our body and our body-mind and with our speech. So to elongate from the inside What is that? Finding other, more subtle parts that are supporting us to sit in relaxation without the tenseness which actually relaxes not just body, but body, mind.

[34:46]

And I think, you know, to throw ourselves into the house of Buddha in relaxation. So today I wanted to talk in terms of the right speech about the practice around slander. I think I mentioned that the other day and the kitchen's leaving right at Slander time. Thank you, kitchen. So what is slander anyway? And how does that, you know, I was talking about it as a subset of advice of speech.

[35:53]

and also partakes of harsh speech, and could also be... I think idle chatter, frivolous talking, idle chatter maybe moves a little bit more into gossip rather than slander. So maybe we'll talk about that another time, but I bet we will talk about that later. So thinking of it as a combination of false speech, harsh speech, and divisive speech, and we've got slander. So the definition of slander is Making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation and a false malicious statement spoken. Libel is a similar thing in a written form. Published false statement that damages, is damaging to a person's reputation. A written defamation. So in the definition of slander is false, you know, already it's false.

[36:59]

To speak about someone's actions, truthfully, that may be a criticism or asking them, how is this the bodhisattva way, talking like that or acting in that way? It's not slander, but falsely. And also this... to damage someone's reputation. So part of slander, and that's where the divisive part comes in, is actively wanting to lower people's opinion of you, lower their view of you as a person. There's another word, calabny, calabny, calabny, which is a false and malicious statement designed to injure the reputation of someone or something.

[38:01]

And it's from the root of meaning trickery or misrepresentation. So the falseness in there, but it's meant to destroy, damage a person's reputation or standing or how other people view you. So... We, you know, one might think, well, I don't do that. I'm not interested in doing such a thing. And I think it, you know, when we, in the full ceremony about the slander, it says, in the Buddha Dharma go together appreciate together realize together and actualize together don't permit fault finding don't permit haphazard talk do not corrupt the way so this is all the commentary under I vow not to slander

[39:21]

So what about when there's a need to point out something that needs to be changed or done in a different way or that really wasn't okay, how do you talk to someone about that? And I think the slander is... You know, going to another person, for example, talking about that person, going to someone and saying, oh, they did this and they did that and they did this and they did that. And in the community, in a community that's living together closely, that can destroy, it can be divisive, destroy the harmony, be hurtful. And is it the whole story, you know? What part of it, you know, is their relation?

[40:29]

Is it often we don't include our part in how that came about, a situation, or what we forgot to even tell the person, which is how they ended up doing what they did. Anyway, these endless intricacies around this. There needs, I think, to be some trust in our life together to be able to either come to the person, and I think we have this in our conflict resolution, to start out, if you can, when something happens, to go right to the person, talk with the person yourself. And how you do that is a skill. If you come to the person saying, You did that and you did that and you always do that. What can happen is a person will be defensive, hurt.

[41:36]

I can't listen to you right now. And especially if you bring a lot of anger. So to come forward with the skills of and state of mind that's calm enough to say, you know, when this happened, this is what happened for me, or I didn't understand, I'm confused about this, could you let me know what was going on for you? And, you know, to let's look at it together, that's the kind of learning conversation, you know, this thing happened, and rather than jumping into it's all your fault and you did it, or slattering telling somebody else they're so selfish they're so arrogant they're so you name it you know a whole list of things telling somebody else and I'm not talking about our practice of speaking with the crew head about something that's going on in the crew for the crew head to address I think that's that's different that's kind of a yeah

[42:52]

our work practice we often go to the person responsible for that situation to talk with them but in more personal things or can we go to somebody and of course that's hard if there's a power differential so maybe we need another person to come with us but what can be divisive and lower other person's opinion of that person that we're having trouble with is speaking behind their back. That's the phrase, right? Talking behind their back to others. And of course, we are all, or I certainly am, know about that. And then I have to ask, what is it, what's going on for me? And of course, in community, to use in slander, wanting someone to... It may be slight, you know, just saying it in a certain way, putting a spin on it, so that someone lowers, lessens their regard for the person, just the way you said it.

[44:21]

Which also often includes... praising self at the expense of others, which is very closely associated with slander. In fact, they come right next to each other, right in the list. So the spin that we put on it, the way we describe the situation, often I'll put, you know, or we can ask ourselves, am I telling it in such a way that I come out looking very, you know, in a very good light. Just so happens, the way you told it. Can we tell it as close to the bone, you know, as we can, that this happened, this was said, this was done, or this was not done, rather than whatever it is that we can add to it that showed that we actually knew better, but...

[45:26]

we know what to do, but we're prevented, or somehow all the myriad ways that we can just ooch ourselves up there a little bit. So that's kind of in there too. Also just to include about slandering ourselves, you know. And sometimes people, you can hear them say, I'm so stupid. Right? I'm never going to get it. I don't have what it takes. Someone recently just wrote me and said, I don't know if I have, if I've got it. I don't know if I have what it takes, I think is what she said, to practice really. That's a kind of harsh, I think it's harsh. And I, you know, is that true? False speech.

[46:28]

And also denigrating the self, kind of slandering the self, lowering our own regard for ourselves. Or maybe by saying that, someone hears that and they lower. They agree, maybe. So that's something that we might be doing or have an inner dialogue or part of us, not maybe all the time, but some part of us that will fall into that. I certainly am familiar with that. So practicing friendliness to ourselves and friendliness in the widest way as part of bodhisattva vow, how do you bring up how do you bring up when there's something that's not, from your point of view anyway, not in alignment, in a way that doesn't lower the person in your estimation or in anyone else's, and yet doesn't just avoid the whole thing and just not get involved.

[47:46]

That's another way. So there's a, a story, it's from the Hasidic, I think, tradition, about, some of you know this story very well, but it's about a rabbi who had a congregation in a village, and one day he was in a grocery store, and he was wearing a big coat in the wintertime. And he was going down the aisles and just taking things and stuffing them in his pockets, big pockets, fruit and some vegetables. And one of the members of the congregation was in the grocery store at the time. Oh my goodness, the rabbi is stealing. The rabbi is stealing in the grocery store. Oh my, this is terrible. This is horrible. And went immediately to tell other

[48:52]

friends of his who were part of the congregation, the rabbi was stealing. I saw my very eyes taking all the stuff, stuffing it in his pockets, and walked out of the store. So they watched another day and saw the same thing. And they told everybody, our rabbi is a thief. He's stealing. What are we going to do? This is horrible. And everyone kind of got involved in this terrible thing. So they went to the storekeeper And they said, we have to tell you, but the rabbi has been stealing the produce and things from the store. And we thought you should know, and it's terrible. And he's horrible. And the storekeeper says, what are you talking about? He's not stealing. We have an arrangement. He gets whatever he wants, and we settle up at the end of the month. It's just easier for him. easier for him not to carry money, and that's what we've arranged.

[49:56]

It's not stealing. What are you talking about? How terrible. Isn't this terrible? What we've been saying about the rabbi, and everybody, we've been telling everybody, we have to go up all this. So they went to the rabbi, a group of them, at his house, and said, we have to tell you that we thought this was happening, that you were stealing, and... We were so upset about it. We found out that this was your arrangement with the storekeeper. We were so sorry. He said, what can we do to make amends? So the rabbi said, well, there's something you can do. Come with me. And he had a house with a second floor. He said, come up to the second floor. And they all went up with him, and he said, here's this pillow, feather pillow. Open it up, unzip it, and shake out all the feathers. in the upstairs window outside, shake them all out. They didn't know what he was doing, but okay, yes, Rabbi, we will.

[50:58]

They shook out his pillow. They watched as the feathers just went flying through the air and took off and went floating off. And then the Rabbi said, now go and pick up every one of those feathers and bring them back. And they said, but Rabbi, that's impossible. They've just been taken by the wind all over him. throughout the country, you know, that we can never get them all back. And the rabbi said, that's what you have done to me. Those stories can never be gathered back. This is kind of the power of slander or the even if it's resolved, even if you know, it's a mistake and It wasn't actually true, but those words of slander get passed on. They are taken, by the way. They go and go and go.

[51:59]

And they will arise in all sorts of situations. They will come back where someone has a lower opinion of you because they heard. They heard about that thing that happened. Or... whatever it is. Now, I'll tell you, this happened with me, but also a very, very recent story, which I'll tell you as well. But there was someone in the community who told a not true story about me. And, you know, the question is, how come, maybe? And Where did the trust between us break apart? Or how was it that there was the urge and it was so tempting to do this? Anyway, and even though it was untrue, years later, 12 years later, someone actually down here overheard somebody talking about, oh, Linda did that, and they came to me and said, did you do that?

[53:19]

And I said, no, but someone did pass that around. And here it was 12 years later with some new students telling the same story. And I thought of this rabbi's story that it has a life of its own, those stories that they can never be brought back. And then the person who knew me wasn't a new student, knew me very well, hadn't heard it, but when she overheard it, was very upsetting to her. You know, so it's like this tapestry, you know, that can result from that kind of language. Yeah. Slander. So to ask, is it true? You know, to find out for ourselves, Slander, another way of talking about it, is tale-bearing, where you don't know for sure.

[54:26]

You kind of heard it. Ooh, that's such a juicy story. I'm going to go tell somebody else. Did you hear about that? It's very tempting. And when it's slander, there's gossip, which is tempting, and there's energy around it, but also when it's a story that lowers opinion, and you don't know for sure, and And then pass that on. That's a kind of hearsay, tail-bearing, that really can do a lot of damage. And especially if you hear it from someone you trust, right? Well, they must know. So then you pass it on, right? hearing those kind of words about someone else, they're like, can be poisonous words that you then pass on. So we can, you know, we might hear it, but then say, how do I know?

[55:32]

I'll find out. Or reading it on the internet, those kinds of things. So the other story I was going to say about this, feathers, when I left the practice street to go east, right near the beginning, right after John Barrio, I went to Pennsylvania to meet with the board of Kendall, which is a very reputable 50 years in senior community building. They have 15 different wonderful communities, and it's Quaker-based. And just so you know, they are working with that center. We're working with them as partners for developing our senior community. And we signed the letter of intent.

[56:35]

We presented at their board this vision and the land that we founded in Sonoma. So at the board meeting, we talked about the history of the project. why we want to work with Kendall, the Quakers, and how far we've come, and some details. And then it was open for questions. And the first question from a board member of the Kendall Corporation was, I have a relative who lives out in San Francisco, and they heard that there was a big sexual scandal at San Francisco's Zen Center and also Another is that teacher in New York. And, you know, what about that? And it was like, whoa, you know. So, and, you know, here's this Quaker organization with a wonderful reputation and people wanting to come and live there from all over the country because they run these places so beautifully and people are really...

[57:48]

taking care of well, memory care. And they're Quakers, pacifists. And I think this person didn't want to have the Kendall Quaker group associated with a kind of scandal-ridden Zen group out on the West Coast. They don't have any Kendall groups on the West Coast. They're all east of the Mississippi. there was you know it's like so I took the question but basically I said yes you know there was 33 years ago actually and it seemed like to say 33 years ago that's a long time ago but in terms of these kinds of things they don't have temporality you know there is you hear it and like that's That's something to be wary of or to be careful about.

[58:52]

And I talked about how Zen Center met that situation, changed her bylaws and incorporation and articles and all sorts of things, which seemed to make sense or calm her anyway. But I realized it's like, that, I wonder what she heard, I don't even know exactly what she heard or knew, but that quality of able, these kinds of things have a, have a, what's that called, the life? Ripple effect. Ripple effect and half-life, you know, those, you know, just that go on and on and on. So, terms of our practice of right speech to let go of, not let go of, meeting injustice, working on the difficulties that we have together, righting wrongs, clarifying how we work together, and all sorts of, it's not like everything will be smooth sailing because we don't talk in this way.

[60:10]

No, there's plenty of things every day and conflicts and difficulties that we engage in with skills, or this is our effort, speaking with the right intention to work on injustice and goals of all sorts that we have, and to let go of slander in the midst of that kind of speaking. Can we bear that in mind? as we work with things that are not going, people are not thinking the way I think about this. And it's hard, you know, especially when it's our friends. So I think this is part of how bringing harmony to everyone, one of the ways is to be very sensitive to what's, would,

[61:15]

fall into tailbearing, hearsay, slander? And how do you then bring up things in a way that does not cause harm in that way? So there is a lot really a lot more to say about it I mean that comes into abusive speech and which is the you know this slander comes under abusive speech false speech divisive speech but I feel maybe that's enough today of just kind of sitting with that it's um And maybe what I'll bring up tomorrow is our practices of kind speech.

[62:16]

Nolan's practices of kind speech and Suzuki Roshi. How do you admonish? How do you, especially living closely together, talk with people about when you differ about how things are going? Maybe just the last thing is this, you know, I was saying, I've always asked myself how it was that this person who was a community member told those stories about me and passed them on. So, you know, not to think about that person, but why would I do it, you know?

[63:18]

What would motivate me? And I think the things that come up are jealousy, envy, of security you know wanting to bring people if I feel lower than in some way that I want to bring people to that level you know these kinds of things I have to ask myself what what might be going on for me that I would maybe even delight in talking about somebody else together go together you know live together as one do not permit fault finding knowing says how come I want to permit it in myself is the question okay maybe since it's 1030 maybe just how about just

[64:33]

or 1035, actually. A couple questions if anyone has, and then we can sit after. Is that a hand, Greg? Yes? I have a question. It includes teachings. Actually, I think it's Chinese folk wisdom. Talk about the eight winds. There's different versions of that, you know, the eight winds. Power, prosperity, good health, poor health. Every version I've ever heard includes Good reputation, bad reputation. Right. Presented as that's something that's gonna happen to you. You know, if you have, that'd be you. You know, it's just like hard life, hard being a human. You know, so I guess I'm sharing a story about the rabbi. I want to introduce him to Hollywood. Yes, yes, exactly. Same story. That's so, isn't it? Yeah. Is that so? Yeah. Yeah. Another thing? When you said about the self-disparagement, I'm not good enough.

[65:37]

I don't have what it takes. This kind of feeling, which I hear all the time. There's another precept around that involves my speech that comes up for me, which is disparaging the triple cheddar. Sometimes when I hear people say that, I'm like, you know, disparaging the triple cheddar. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I think our practice, if someone is actively wanting to lower our reputation, then we work with that as our practice. How do you work with that? And then the practice of, well, what if I'm trying to lower somebody else's? What's that about? But yes, the eight wins, good reputation, bad reputation, that swings throughout our life to various degrees. and nothing really sticks, you know. Oh, you were such a great this, and how come you're not doing this so well?

[66:43]

It's like it just swings, blows back and forth. Toma? I think this is by way of confession. It's something you know about already. Years ago, I wrote a letter someone was being considered for a physician at Zen Center and I wrote a letter saying why I didn't think that person should be considered for that physician without talking to the person directly and telling them I was going to write the letter and it caused so much pain when that person found out and I think it was slander and it certainly affected my relationship with that person, which goes on to this day that we now have a very, I would say, warm relationship. But every time I see that person, I remember what I did.

[67:46]

And I feel it was all over again. So I'm just saying that it's very, you know, and I have looked into what caused me to write that letter. I think I have some understanding of why I did it, but it's such a painful thing to live with. So I just want to say in terms of karma, you know, body, speech, and mind, those things don't really go away. You know, they may lessen over time, the impact, and I apologize to all of that, but it's still years later is something everyone here, Topha. Yes. Laura is pointing to someone.

[68:47]

Yes. I guess I was just wondering if you had any advice or if I had a flip side flip so much. feel like nothing maybe felt really like that you felt the impact of like your head if yeah I feel like I it's I've heard the impact of things I felt All sorts of things. So things that you've heard about you or about others or both? I don't know. About myself.

[69:55]

Uh-huh. Yeah. Well, there's a choice, you know, And one of the choices is just to let it go. But that has to feel right. That has to feel like, I'm not going there. I'm going to just let it go. And I think that is a real choice. Rather than running away or avoiding, it can be the correct choice. And why you would choose that is, it's not going to help. I don't have enough trust. I don't feel safe. and bring it up, or many reasons why one would say, I'm just, you know. But you might need some support and help, you know, with a good friend or something to talk about your feelings, but maybe not with the person themselves. So that is a choice. And then other skillful things are also with an ally or a helper to talk with the person, you know.

[71:00]

I think that can... It's not 100%. I think those conversations, difficult conversations where you have some kind of helper, sometimes it takes not just one. I found this out many times. It may take two or three coming back to it and back to it. One time alone, there's too much there. Even with a long conversation, there's so much there. You have to... continue. So it's a big commitment and effort, but it might be really worth it if all parties are up for it, you know. So I think processing the pain of being talked about in a certain way or words being used, you know, we say about words that they're like sharp words or the Buddha in one Sutta uses the term verbal daggers, verbal daggers, sharp, using words as weapons, you know.

[72:13]

So we are, you know, that sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me. That's not true. You know, it does hurt, you know, to hear. So I think there are, Often we need help if we're hurt to know what's the skillful thing to do in this case, because it's each case. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[73:17]

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