This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. In the Zen tradition, sometimes it's said that investigate the Buddha way is to investigate the self. What is this self that we are? I would propose

[01:00]

Each of us has three kinds of self. It's kind of strange. We each have three kinds of self. It's a way of talking about what's happening here. One kind of self that we have, I would call the conventionally true self. When we say the word I, I is just a convenient name for a causal series of body and mind experiences. We all know about body and mind experiences. There's a bunch of them happening right now.

[02:02]

Body is like physical sensations. Mind is like sights and sounds and thoughts and feelings and emotions. And the present experience that each of us is having is arising dependent on the previous experience of body and mind. That's why we can call it a causal series. In other words, this person's experience of body and mind isn't getting all mixed up with yours. They are related, but each of us has our own causal series of body and mind experiences. present experience arising dependent on the previous, which arises dependent on the previous, which arises dependent on the previous.

[03:23]

So there's some relationship between this moment's body and mind experience for each of us and like yesterday's and the day before's and so on. It's just a bunch of arising and ceasing experiences, but that's unique to this causal series of each person. So again, the definition of this conventionally true self. This self, or this I, is a convenient name. Very convenient because it's just one word, I or self. a convenient name for a causal series of body and mind experiences. This is a nice self to have. Without that word, there's no experience. This is our experience. And because it's a causal series, it's helpful to look at ourself this way.

[04:31]

This is not a problematic self as an idea, as a way of looking at life. For example, because of the causal series, this body and mind experience of the present can take responsibility for a previous moment of body and mind experience in the past in this causal series. So without any continuous substantial entity, In addition to this causal series of body and mind experiences, we can have responsibility for the past and we can take care of the future experiences of body and mind for this causal series. In fact, we can, in the present, brush our teeth so that a future body and mind experience next year won't have rotten teeth.

[05:36]

And all this can happen without any substantial entity added in to this constantly arising and ceasing flow of body and mind experience happening in this particular causal series. We call it each person. Very useful sense of self. that reduces suffering like rotten teeth and irresponsibility and so on. That's one type of self called the conventionally true self. For short, let's call it experience. We know this means a causal series of arising and ceasing body and mind experiences. A second type of self that we all have is the false self.

[06:44]

This was the conventionally true self. We also, all of us, I think, we all also have this false self, false sense of self. It's like an illusion. But it's possible to not have this, but Everybody is born with it, according to the Buddha's teaching. It's an innate and very deep belief, but unconscious belief, which is why we maybe don't even notice it. So it's a deeply conditioned, unconscious belief. A belief and also a feeling that there's something more than this causal series of body and mind experiences. There's something in addition. If we start examining our experience, it's hard to find anything in addition to that, but the proposal is that we have this unconscious belief and feeling.

[08:01]

We might not recognize the belief, but we but the kind of evidence for the belief is we act as if it's true. That's how we can kind of, we can't actually find the belief necessarily, but we can see the effects of it and the symptoms of it, which is painful experiences. So this extra, I feel like there's this extra thing in addition to this flow, this causal series of experiences, And one way of talking about this extra thing, the false self, is an experiencer. We feel like there's an experiencer in addition to the causal series of experiences. It's a natural thing to feel as if I am an experiencer person.

[09:01]

like an entity, some sort of thing, some sort of subject of experience, in addition to the experience. You feel as if we're an experiencer, and it's some sort of thing that's actually kind of a, feels as if it's a permanent entity. And it feels kind of limited. and separate from other experiencers. And if the conventionally true self, which is just this convenient name for a causal series of body and mind experiences, if that one's kind of helpful, this false self of being an experiencer seems not so helpful. I don't think we really need to have this kind of self. And some problems with it are The way that it manifests in painful ways is things like feeling as if I am a bad person, for example.

[10:23]

There's some sort of entity in addition to just a flow of experiences. We can't really label as good or bad, but an experiencer is like a... could feel that way. Or an experiencer of being insulted. The insulted one. The insulted one is like a experiencer. body and mind, experience in the moment, and insult can come to that body and mind, and it might be painful, but it's not like, there's not necessarily a holding on to it if there's no experiencer. But if we identify with this person, this entity here, that is this insulted one, or the wounded one, not just a wounded experience, but there's a wounded person

[11:25]

self in addition to the flow of experience. We're all familiar with this according to the Buddhist teaching. We all have this. But this is an illusion. It's a false self, the experiencer. We can have just experience without being an experiencer, without identifying ourself as being this limited, separate experiencer, which feels like it's something permanent and yet we're also, contradictorily, it feels permanent and yet we're also afraid that it's going to die. The experiencer is going to die. That very contradiction of feeling permanent and yet a fear of its own demise It kind of shows how this experiencer doesn't really hold up.

[12:28]

It doesn't really make that much sense if we start to investigate it. And we can't actually find such a thing. It's a belief, but it's an unconscious belief and a feeling based on the belief which reinforces the belief. So that's two of our three selves. The conventionally true self and the false self. The third is the ultimately true self. And not all Buddhist traditions agree that there is such a thing. But in these great vehicle teachings, particularly this week, some of us have been looking at this Mahayana Paranirvana Sutra, one of the classic teachings of the True Self in Buddhism. Also the Srimaladevi Sutra, one of our women ancestors, Srimaladevi, she teaches this True Self, True Atman, as an authentic Buddhist teaching.

[13:46]

So the conventionally true self is just experience. A false self is an experiencer in addition to that. This true self, I would propose, we could call experiencing. Experiencing is a little different than experience. Experience is something that arises and ceases moment to moment. It's coming and going, totally impermanent and conditioned. But experiencing, if we start to look into it, is always the case. It's not coming and going. Experiencing is awareness itself. And this awareness is not some entity like the experiencer.

[14:57]

The experiencer is the subject of experience. It's a kind of a limited individual entity. Experiencing is, well, what is it? I can't really say what experiencing is. And yet, we're all experiencing. We can't get a hold of it in any way. If it were some sort of graspable entity, we could get a hold of it. We could kind of locate it and pinpoint it and see it. But experiencing is not that kind of a thing. It's not a thing. But it's also not nothing, right? Because aren't we experiencing? We're all experiencing right now. And this experiencing is, it's not nothing, because all of this is it.

[16:00]

But it's not something, because we can't get a hold of it. It's not an experience that we can get a hold of. Something that's arising and ceasing in our body and mind. It's like... that which is aware of all experiences. It's the unchanging awareness of all the changing experiences. Sometimes we call it Buddha nature. And all sentient beings, sometimes we say have this Buddha nature, but maybe even more Accurately, we could say all sentient beings are this food of nature. This is the true self, the ultimately true self of all sentient beings. It's what we truly are. It's ungraspable.

[17:04]

It's... When we start to examine it, it seems to be... Something that's not changing. Suzuki Roshi, the founder of Tassahara, has a chapter in one of his books called, Everyday Life is Like a Movie. It's in that book, Not Always So. And... she says that everyday life meaning all our experiences all experience is like a movie this kind of movie comes not just in colors and sounds but also comes in feelings and emotions and bodily sensations and there's

[18:13]

There's horror movies, and there's love stories, and there's everything in between, and we get very involved in the movie of our life. And Suzuki, she says, but we never really pay much attention to the screen that the movie's playing on. It's reasonable to not pay attention to the screen, right? Because it's not very interesting compared to the movie. And it's not a thing that we can actually get a hold of or actually see. And yet, this screen called awareness or experiencing is always present as the kind of as the kind of space that holds all experiences. All experiences are appearing in this space of experiencing.

[19:18]

In these sutras, they often compare this Buddha nature to space because it has... Space is... It doesn't rise and cease. It's not an impermanent thing. Space, you can't get a hold of it. Space has no edges or boundaries or center or location, and yet it's everywhere. Everything is appearing in space. Two different metaphors. Metaphors help for talking about something that you can't really talk about. This experiencing is kind of like space in one sense, and it's also kind of like the screen on which the movie, the experiences of our life is playing out. If experience is the conventionally true self, then you could say that the movie of conventionally true self is playing on the screen of the ultimately true self.

[20:32]

And they're inseparable. That's the nice part about the movie metaphor. The movie and the screen are inseparable. They're not exactly the same, because one's a screen and one's a movie. So you can just conflate them completely like that. And yet, you can't have a movie without a screen, and maybe you could have a screen without a movie. Like when we're in deep sleep. maybe like the screen without a movie. So how can we get in touch with this screen that if we can't get a hold of it, we can't really see it? All we're seeing is the movie. How can we watch the screen while we're watching the movie?

[21:38]

So the various methods we can use. My favorite method, it's kind of a tool, it's an exercise, is to ask myself certain questions. And these questions have to be asked, the trick to these questions is they have to be We ask very sincerely and very naively as if we don't know the answer. They're not like conceptual questions to get a conceptual answer. They're like experiential questions about our actual experience. And if we're asking them the same questions regularly, we have to keep it really fresh because we already know the answer. But ask it as if we don't know the answer. That's the trick to these questions. So the first question, you can try this out. You can try this out, you know, in Zazen or meditation. You can try it out right now. It's not. These questions apply to everything.

[22:45]

So all our daily life. One question we can ask is, is there experiencing right now? Are you experiencing right now? Or is there awareness right now? Are you aware? And remember here, this is not some, like, are you really mindful and concentrated? Not that kind of awareness. You could be totally distracted, but is there experiencing of the distraction? Is there anybody who would say that they're not experiencing? Raise your hand if you're not experiencing it. Amazing.

[23:46]

Unless you're faking it. Anybody's experiencing right now. Our sentient beings are Buddha nature. Without asking this question, we might not notice that there's experiencing going on. We know there's experience happening. We're generally really involved in all the particulars of a rising and ceasing experience, but we might not notice, or it might not be an interesting question to us to ask. Is there experiencing of all these experiences? I think it's one of the most wonderful questions that can be asked in this world. When we ask this question, and we ask it in this naive kind of way, is there experiencing going on? Before we say, yeah, of course. Kokyo already said that there was, so there is. We have to check ourselves, right?

[24:48]

Is there experiencing? And when we ask it like that, to me it feels like in order to answer the question, the mind kind of steps back. Instead of looking, instead of the mind... attending to those experiences like sights and sounds and sensations and thoughts and feelings. The mind, almost it's like it recedes back. In Zen we call it turning the light around and shining back. But not back, sometimes I think this gets interpreted as turning the light around. It means like Don't pay attention to what other people are doing. Pay attention to your own body and mind experiences. That's my understanding of this phrase, echo hensho. It's used all throughout the Zen tradition in China and Japan. My understanding is to turn the light of awareness that's directed towards experiences back to the experiencing.

[25:53]

Turn the light. of attention that's directed towards the movie back towards the screen. But we're not going to see the screen as another part of the movie. And yet, when we ask this question, is experiencing present, there's some sense of like stepping back, relaxing into this space of experiencing that we can't get a hold of, and yet we can be this experiencing because we are this experiencing. And then a follow-up question one can ask is if we come to the conclusion, yes, there is experiencing. And I would say it's a definitive yes.

[26:54]

It's 100% yes. If we're ever in doubt, we're misinterpreting the question. The answer is always for everybody, no matter what state of mind we're ever in, the answer is they're experiencing. It will always be yes, of course. And the follow-up question is, what is it that knows that answer yes? What is it that knows awareness is present? What is it that knows experiencing is happening? Anyone want to venture a guess, if you had to say? What is it that actually... We know, right? We know confidently and surely that experiencing is present. What is it that knows that so confidently? Anyone want to throw out a guess? Consciousness. Yeah, you could say consciousness, which is another name for awareness or experiencing.

[28:00]

Ah, so actually experiencing is confirming that experiencing is happening. Awareness knows that awareness is present. So we can call that being aware of being aware. It's kind of a simple thing. While we're thinking about stuff and feeling stuff and seeing and hearing stuff, there's also... the fact that awareness is aware of itself. It's a self-reflexive awareness. It's a self-knowing awareness. It's like the sun that, the sun of awareness that's illuminating all the experiences is also illuminating itself at the same time. So already these two questions are, I think, kind of profound if we really take them to heart and explore the implications of awareness is always present and it's always aware of itself.

[29:04]

And then further questions to explore are, once we have a sense of awareness is present, can really get into it for a little while, awareness is present and it... It knows it's present. There's not like another awareness that knows this awareness. There's only one awareness that knows itself. There's not some sort of infinite regress of awareness, of a different awareness, of a different awareness. So then, if we have this sense that there's this present awareness that knows it is aware, then we can start exploring awareness. If this is our true self, as awareness, we can start to inquire into its qualities, you could say. Like, does this awareness seem to arise and cease? And again, we have to gain our own direct experience. Is it something that seems to be coming and going? Or does it seem to be like a movie screen?

[30:06]

As the movie's coming and going, the screen is just unchanging. We can explore that for ourself. That's the kind of temporal dimension. coming to confirm the timelessness of awareness. And then we can explore the spatial dimension. Does this awareness seem to have any location? The common location feels like it's in the head. It seems to be like behind the eyes and ears. Sometimes people feel like the center of awareness or it's behind the eyes and ears. And I think that's just because the sense faculties are located here. And awareness has to do with how we're perceiving the world through our senses. But it's not really located. And also we have the sense of it's connected with the brain. But these are your ideas. So if we have a sense that awareness is located behind the eyes and ears, we can say that's an experience of locatedness.

[31:08]

What is it that's experiencing this sense of locatedness? It's awareness is experiencing the sense of locatingness. And does the awareness of the locatingness have a location? I don't think so. But these are things we can explore. But not tonight, because we're out of time. You can explore on your own. In Zazen or out of Zazen, any time of day or night. And more questions you could come up with yourself. but if we can confirm experientially that our true self is all pervasive throughout space and it's unchanging throughout time and that's a different kind of self than the other two actually a very free one also this

[32:13]

The one that's not changing obviously doesn't die and doesn't get sick. The other self will. The causal series will get sick and die. So we'll take care of that one. But what about that screams? And that's our true self. So I'll just finish with one Zen story that's... kind of about the fact that not only do we have to conceptually examine these points, but we have to really deeply confirm them, verify them for ourselves. So one time in the old days, in old China, there was a monk named Xuanzi, who was the monastery director in the assembly of Zen teacher, Fayan. And one day, the abbot Fayan came to Xuanzai and said, how long have you been here in the monastery?

[33:22]

And Xuanzai said, I've been here for three years. And the abbot Fayan said, why don't you ever ask any questions? Why don't you ever come to Doka-san? You've been here for three years. And Schwanzai said, well, I don't want to deceive you, teacher, but before I came here, I was practicing with another teacher. And with that teacher, I realized the Dharma realm of ease and joy. Like I had some awakening. You know, the abbot, the Fayan, said, with what words did you awaken? Interestingly, in Zen, almost all awakenings come with words and conversations and a new understanding through dialogue.

[34:31]

So you almost assumed that. It wasn't just when you were sitting silently. You heard something new, and it turned your mind, right? And he said, yeah, it was like that. I asked that teacher, what is the self? And that teacher said, the fire spirit comes seeking fire. And the abbot said, well, those are fine downer words. That's great teaching, but I don't know if you really understood them. And Schwanza said, well, I understood it like this, that the fire spirit is like the nature of fire. And the nature, that which is the nature of fires, is looking for fire. So it's actually the self that's looking for the self. And Fayan said, just as I thought, you didn't really understand. And Schwanza said,

[35:39]

was kind of felt insulted. Who is that that felt insulted? The experiencer felt insulted. And so kind of indignant, like, well, he doesn't acknowledge my cool experience, then I'm leaving. So he packed his bags after three years and started walking down the mountain. And as he was walking down the mountain, he thought, well, actually, you know, Fayan has a great reputation and he's the teacher of 500 disciples and maybe his admonishment to me had some merit. Maybe I should go back, kind of let go of his pride a little bit and walk back up the mountain and went to Fayan and did his prostrations and asked Fayan the same question. What is the self? And Fien said, the fire spirit comes seeking fire.

[36:45]

And this time, Swansea had realized great awakening. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

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