The original title of this precept is No Unrighteous Moodness a kind of pathology which in Chinese and in older English is simply a strong expression Moodness has rather a quaint ring in modern English but its derivation is very instructive It comes from an old English word meaning Unlearned implying boorish No boorish sex not a good precept for us all What did our Zen Buddhist ancestors say about sex? In my directory of some 5,500 koans

[01:03]

I find no entry for this subject in the elaborate index I do know of one pertinent koan, however and although it is stereotyped it is tainted by stereotyped views toward women It also rebukes the puritanical attitudes commonly associated with religion both East and West In ancient days an old woman made offerings to a hermit over a period of 20 years One day she sent her 16-year-old niece to take food to the hermit telling her to make advances to him to see what he would do The girl laid her head on the hermit's lap and said, How's this? The hermit said The withered tree is rooted in an ancient rock in bitter cold

[02:08]

During winter months there is no warmth, no life The girl reported this to her aunt The old woman said That Bulgarian To think that I have made offerings to him for 20 years She drove away the hermit and burned down his cottage While we may question the youth of the niece as bait to test the monk's realization it is clear by the final response of the aunt that fundamentally she too disapproves of the misuse of sex The hermit was not responding to the human being who laid her head in his lap He was using her to express his ascetic position

[03:10]

So the aunt calls him a Bulgarian A boor Ludeness is boorish Asceticism can be and often is boorish Boorishness is just thinking of oneself She drives him off and burns down his cottage Fire is a dream symbol for sex You don't belong here Sex belongs here Or at least acknowledgement of it This case is listed under offerings to monks in my directory of koans and the lack of any classification for sex is in keeping with the curtain that is drawn over the subject in Zen practice

[04:17]

After careful search of the literature you can find cautions by Dog and Zenji to avoid sexual gossip But that is about all except, of course, for this precept and its brief commentaries In the Zen monastery food, sleep, zazen, work, and even going to the toilet are organized and scheduled But it is as though sex did not exist I am not so naive to suppose that this could be so But I must say that the mildest kind of homosexual fooling around among young monks was all the sex I ever observed in several months of residence in a Zen monastery

[05:20]

The case of the ant and the hermit is not included in the anthologies of koans studied in the room as established by Harada Dai Onyoshi But it is generally part of the Rinzai curriculum Even so, one wonders how students can apply its teaching In Japanese Zen monasteries today women are admitted for sesshin only as a general rule They sit in a separate room and only join the men for meals citrus and teishos and even then they are grouped together At teisho time, the laymen sit with the monks and the women sit on the other side of the room with guests who come in from outside

[06:26]

especially to hear the talk So, if we were having such an arrangement here the women would be sitting upstairs and during teisho time they would come and sit in the alcove with the guests The message is clearly dozen is for men Japanese generally place the onus of sexual distraction upon women At least until very recently Japanese boys and girls mixed very little in their teenage years and the monk who set off at 18 to train in a monastery would simply not be able to handle the presence of a woman in the dojo Her appearance would prompt long repressed sexual urges

[07:30]

to take over his sasen Mu would disappear and the result would be failure in the doksan room and disruption of the monastic routine The rishi sitting at the heart of the Zen training program is not likely to be interested in trying to make over the society which presents him with this problem Within his own menu he solves it in the only way that seems to him to be possible by excluding or segregating the immediate cause This is a negative model for us in Western Zen and as such it can be very instructive Senbaki Nogen sensei liked the story of the nun Eishun who it seems did practice with a sangha of monks

[08:34]

Twenty monks and one nun who was named Eishun were practicing meditation under a certain Zen master Eishun was very pretty even though her head was shaved and her dress plain Several monks secretly fell in love with her and one of them wrote her a love letter insisting on a private meeting Eishun did not reply The following day the master gave a play show to the group and when it was over Eishun stood and faced the monk who had written her and said, if you really love me so much come and embrace me now One of my students remarked that Eishun's action was self-righteous I'm not so sure In her context perhaps it was quite appropriate In modern circumstances we seek to be open in such matters

[09:38]

and can appreciate her intention In any case, if you were the monk how would you reply to her challenge? In discussing this matter with students I said that I would go over to her and make a bow or in our society offer to shake her hand Well done One student said, if I were the monk I'd go over and embrace her This is a Zen-like response and also very modern and western So far as I know all the Zen centers in the United States today accommodate both men and women This arrangement, like ordinary life away from the center brings a stream of crises that hinge on sex In the books on ren, you may be asked about the aunt and the hermit

[10:40]

The question is, in that situation how would you respond as the hermit to the niece? Like all good poems Hm? Only one sort of response is possible However, the acid test of the mime in the room is the act itself, thereafter Here you are in your friend's apartment The circumstances are thus and so How do you respond in such a time and place with this person? No giggling allowed The acid test is also found in the western Zen Buddhist training center where men and women not only sit side by side in the dojo but also eat together, work together

[11:42]

sometimes bathe together How do such arrangements affect their Zen training? How is their Zen training applied in these circumstances? Though there are many problems I think the overall effect of such proximity is beneficial to the practice There is an experience of wholeness in having the other sex in close association throughout the day Fantasies about sex are still present but surely they are less fierce than they might be if there were no chance to experience the humanity of the other in the give and take of cooking, gardening and re-roofing together At such a level, one is better able to accept the thoughts as normal and natural and permit them to pass

[12:45]

There are tensions in the co-ed community but so are there tensions in celibate communities People in combination produce tensions Tensions can be used creatively or one can be used by them In the broader community we in the western hemisphere have gone through many changes in sexual behavior in the past 65 years particularly in the decades of the 1920s and the 1960s Young people today may go through a period of sleeping with partners that might otherwise have been steady dates in an earlier time I have the feeling that these new mores are healthier than the courting games of my youth

[13:49]

People emerge from these years of playing at sex with a better sense of bedroom theater than we of an earlier generation could possibly attain with our preoccupations about making the grave or walking down the aisle There are deeper implications in this change The sexual drive is part of the healing path of self-realization When our mores are relatively permissive we have increased opportunity to explore our human nature through sexual relationships At the same time, of course there is more opportunity for self-centered people to use sex as a means for personal power The path you choose arises from your fundamental purpose

[14:55]

Why are you here? The Russian in charge of a monastery who avoids difficulty simply by dividing humanity in half has his counterpart in Western Victorian authority or society where in similar ways women exclusion and segregation were used as a means for control With the help of our evolving Western cultural attitudes we in the Zen movement can use sex in our practice rather than trying to exclude it I don't mean that we should be experimenting with tantra but simply that we must acknowledge sexual energy

[15:57]

as part of the Sangha treasure Certainly we cannot justify rejecting sex and accepting the other human drives and emotions such as anger, fear, hunger, and the need for sleep All we have learned on our cushions curves that physical and mental conditions the world and emotions are human elements to be integrated into our daily life practice and our Zazen practice For all its ecstatic nature for all its power sex is just another human drive If we avoid it just because it is more difficult to integrate than anger or fear then we are simply saying that when the chips are down we cannot follow our own practice

[16:58]

This is dishonest and unhealthy According to the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas Jesus said If you bring forth what is within you what you bring forth will save you If you do not bring forth what is within you what you do not bring forth will destroy you In the past 20 years in the West homosexuals have taken this truth to heart On this subject again we are on our own If the world's teachers were relatively quiet on the subject of conventional sex they were altogether silent about the unconventional A Japanese young monk of my acquaintance became Orochi and a few months later looking back on the counseling sessions he had been holding informally with his students

[18:02]

both lay people and monks he remarked to me I had no idea that homosexuality was so widespread I thought it was just a very occasional problem Homosexuality becomes a problem if society and the individual involved view it as a problem My feeling is that with the encouragement of teacher and Sangha the individual member has a chance for personal maturity and realization through Zen practice whatever his or her sexual orientation may be Buddha nature is not heterosexual or homosexual Buddha nature is in fact the essence and quality of energy including the human energy of sex Bodhidharma said

[19:06]

self-nature is subtle and mysterious in the realm of the ungilded Dharma not creating a veneer of attachment is called the precept of not misusing sex Bodhidharma was celibate, of course and his words were directed to his celibate followers celibacy is an appropriate path for some Zen students today but celibate or not we can all of us find guidance in Bodhidharma's words the non-attachment of suchness is the Tao of all the Buddhas Sasaki Joshu Roshi has said when you are completely one with your lover you don't know whether you are doing something good or bad or attached or non-attached

[20:07]

Goenzenji said the three wheels are pure and clear when you have nothing to desire you follow the way of all Buddhas the three wheels are the actor the thing acted upon and the action we and this food and our eating are vacant the lovers and their act of love are intrinsically pure and clear there is no attainment at all the celibate too, fully realized finds that Buddha nature pervades the whole universe Bodhidharma and the Goenzenji shine light on our paths and if little is said about sex in any direct way in the rest of Zen Buddha's teaching we can nonetheless use the general doctrine

[21:14]

of personal acceptance and compassion as our guide when there is an easy drawing together a new love relationship can be conducive to deeper practice for the partners and for the Sangha a difficult relationship can also be a field for practice however, practice can be disrupted by actions that the Sangha members perceive as boorish sex if there is a wolf among the lambs the practice may be overwhelmed throughout the dojo as though someone had left the television going during Sushi and what of the teacher as the wolf? the words of Bodhidharma and Goenzenji are simply profound expressions of common morality it is up to the Zen teacher and his or her senior followers

[22:16]

to build a solid road of example and zazen that will link the wisdom of our ancestors to the exigencies of ordinary living I am especially concerned about the effect of inappropriate sexual affairs in the Buddha Sangha there have been grave upsets in American Zen Buddhist centers recently which followed upon affairs of teachers with their students these cases seem to reveal blind spots in the minds of the teachers and indeed to reflect blind spots in Zen Buddhism itself a teacher of religious practice occupies an archetypal place in the psyches of the students he or she continues to teach in their dreams this is a factor that must be worked with in teacher-student relations

[23:18]

on the one hand, it is important for the teacher to be responsible for this power and to encourage the students to use its influence and to speak out when they think they are being used on the other hand, it is important for students to avoid blind allegiance for example, I once challenged a student about sexist and anti-Semitic statements made by his teacher he replied, it is true, he is sexist and anti-Semitic but he is the guru that won't do, I think the function of the teacher is to teach just as the function of the mother or father is to be a parent or the function of the psychologist is to counsel all of these roles set up archetypal responses and at best such responses are positive and productive

[24:23]

when the teacher in the role of teacher confronts a student sexually the archetype is violated and the student is deeply confused and disturbed this is a law, as irrevocable as the law of gravity proved in the suffering of earnest Zen students and their sanghas today in the everyday world too sexual laws operate at an archetypal level the calipus must be removed in safety the distinguished husband takes off his hairpiece the beautiful wife takes off her foam padding each trusts a vulnerable self to the other for the intimate ancient dance mutually taking refuge in this way brings liberation that is fully protected

[25:26]

but the couple cannot create this protection by themselves Dante relates how Paolo and Francesca persuaded each other that mutual attraction alone could justify their affair and they carried this conviction into the inferno star-crossed lovers have only themselves and their poor preparation for falling in love to blame with wise counsel offered little by little in childhood and adolescent years can come a cool eye and a firm voice to say it is not to be and all systems shut down this is a painful experience but far preferable to the agony of a mistaken marriage and with the same preparation a green light may flash clearly then all systems are go

[26:30]

and the ecstasy of giving over with a new lover can establish the Tao of a lifetime partnership true partnership is freedom within a publicly expressed commitment and of such expressions marriage provides the safest environment without marriage there can still be an agreement to establish a relationship and to work on it many people have been harmed by ill-advised marriages or know others who have been harmed and so shy away from the ultimate kind of commitment that has a religious foundation and would be hard to break they form relationships often successfully but the lack of ultimate commitment is always a factor and may prove to be the opening that permits a decision to separate when the relationship becomes difficult commitment in a relationship is the agreement to establish a practice together

[27:36]

the couple reaches a mutual understanding it is not so much that we agree to love and honor each other though that is an important part of it but that we agree to love and honor our practice we are two people involved in creating a work of art together in marriage man and woman cultivate a harmony with their vastly different psyches each completing the other each finding the other in the self the self in the other the yin and yang of the universe at play in a single household consenting to any sexual affair will involve this dynamism of male and female to some degree if the intention is directed toward establishing a practice then the game can move toward liberation but if other spouses and children are left behind

[28:41]

then the affair can be the source of acute misery and if deception is involved then the lives of those concerned are poisoned and the zen practice, if any, is out the window depending on character and circumstances all this suffering either cannot be healed or it can be the hot stone for bringing new life I am familiar with the argument that sex is only fulfilling when it breaks the established pattern that human beings are not essentially monogamous this is the view of people who cultivate power to attract others very different from the compassionate spirit of reaching out to them saving all beings is our practice and in the home this can be just the simple act of doing the dishes

[29:43]

or helping with homework or it can be having a party when the kids are in bed the dance of sex, the dance of life in all circumstances requires forgetting the self and giving over to the dance sexual intercourse is the dancing nucleus of our home generating all beings at climax bringing rest and renewal we reveal to ourselves the vanity of fulfillment as a girl when we daydream about sex how much time have you wasted in the arms of your lover? perhaps a true lover of the past perhaps a lover that never was while you sit there on your cushions your back bent slightly forward at your waistline your eyelids two-thirds lowered immobile as a stone buddha

[30:44]

in mak zazen how much time have you wasted as a zendo resident fooling around in sexual games? the three wheels are pure can you realize this? as the Buddha said we cannot testify to such facts because of our delusions and attachments it is time to see through those empty clouds and into the source once and for all there is no misuse of sex at the source no need to prove anything no boorish self-centeredness at all I... I would hope that we could think along these lines

[31:45]

rather than just holding everything in limbo and waiting to see what would happen and then having to decide but to visualize various possibilities and think about various contingency plans I can't suggest anything more exact than that yeah there's an issue uh stretching the metaphor of sex I hope not too far um in the uh deductive power of some type of magic or vision

[32:46]

that holds the community together and uh I don't know what your view is of the proper use of such magical power uh I think the use of the term magical power is very interesting um because um the power of community cannot be explained and so the use of such a term is valid I think if we can uh use it dispassionately and not in any superstitious way um that uh we all sense the the power of community I I sense this power in this community um and I and I know from talking with you individually and listening to your questions that you feel this also

[33:47]

um it is the it is the power of sangha the the the sense that we uh reflect each other that we interpenetrate each other that we intercontain each other if I may use that expression um this um realization is expressed philosophically in the Hawaiian in the net of Indra where all beings not only human beings but all beings not only animate beings but the so called inanimate too are jewels in a in a multidimensional net um perfectly reflecting and containing each other each jewel containing all others and this doctrine is indeed uh uh

[34:49]

being developed on an intellectual level in the field of physics um we we become especially conscious of this uh doing zazen together and going through the same experiences together particularly um a deep deeply troubling experience that somehow can help to bring a sangha together seems like one of the tasks of buddhism uh has to do with dispelling some of the magic uh on the other hand uh to um to keep the community together requires generating magic mhm well um there you're using magic in two different ways I think uh good magic and bad magic

[35:50]

or something like that uh um uh certainly there there is it is possible that some kind of false euphoria might develop in a community that wasn't real uh or that would not uh would not be appropriate or productive uh and I think that it is important at all times to to uh keep a cool head and not be carried away by by uh what one writer has called the madness of crowds you know where where some kind of uh organism seemed irrational kind of organism seems to to uh occur in which all the

[36:51]

individual human beings are are mindless uh elements you know I I think that uh we should keep an eye out for that but um I'm not hearing much risk of that here at this time I I think it's important to do what we can to to encourage uh uh unity yes what we focus on is a one on one relationship with her with with her what we what we call similar to a well with a homosexual homosexual relationship for for me for me for me and the kind of loyalty and that kind of bond doesn't

[37:51]

uh isn't determined by the detail of somebody it it doesn't seem to be entirely for it isn't even at all it's even on a on the character of whoever you're involved with maybe but maybe it's I dropped it uh uh it's certainly true that um the the doksan that the the relationship that is developed in doksan is an intimate bond um um in the sense that all human relations have um sexual implications then I would agree that uh that there is uh

[38:51]

uh sexual overtone or quality that's not what I mean what I mean is that the loyalty that develops is is uh is so real that it it uh if a person is in love with somebody that betrays them it's just as much in love as somebody that's in love with somebody that doesn't betray them I see yes yes yes I I think so I think that uh um this community will always feel a bond with with Pekaroshi yes I think that's correct but you know um um I have been concerned

[39:51]

on this subject uh um since um 1964 you know that's uh nineteen and a half years it has preyed on my mind um um the the monk who became Edo Roshi um fell into the um trap of um using his natural charisma in a uh in a sexual way and two of the women in our sangha had had nervous breakdowns uh uh and uh this was the this is this is the way kind of accidentally finding out through through through medical records of of the

[40:52]

of the hospital cases that uh I learned of uh his behavior and he left Hawaii under a cloud um this this cloud and went to New York uh and I was not able to persuade people in New York that uh this was uh uh not a true teacher because he had already made good context there and I was not able to persuade the people who were then my teachers in Japan that this guy was a raman and um I've I've watched uh his uh career with a lot of concern over the years and it was um a with him in mind

[41:54]

that I that uh I said some of the critical things I did in the original draft of this case show um I want really to open my heart to you on this subject um I have felt very responsible uh for the suffering of many many people by the fact that um that I was his that I was Edo Roshi's original sponsor in this country um and so uh uh uh I don't know I can I can hear your your resentment and anger and I want to give it space and I appreciate very much your loyalty you know really pardon grief I beg your pardon grief grief

[42:55]

your grief yes yes I think that is a matter of time yes yes a matter of of growth and maturity well uh I certainly wouldn't want to make a judgment on that you know uh I think that that people should be

[43:56]

responsive to their to their own deepest motives and that uh what I'm hearing from a lot of people is I want to stay here and support the Sangha I'm hearing this from many many people but that that will produce a strong Sangha a strong Sangha to produce strong teachers uh uh sure uh but uh you know um I think that our vision should be very long like ten thousand years um and it may be that in the interim uh other teachers will be brought in I don't know it's very difficult for me as a guest teacher to to try to to uh second guess what what might be decided here but certainly

[44:59]

uh in time uh leaders can emerge from this Sangha yeah uh huh do not misuse the senses do not misuse the senses boy it says sex plain and clear in the original Chinese yeah yeah yeah uh Maezumi Hiroshi's translation is do not be ignorant but it also the archetype the senses and

[46:00]

things of another uh precept we sell is that we do not sell toxicness uh uh my translation of that is do not give or take drugs and um drugs being a kind of general term that would include liquor well something I'm not I feel formulated in me is some relationship to this archetype idea and people's projection onto this image ah the formulation of the formulation of the community around specific archetypes uh huh that this Buddha Hall is set up so that there's somebody in the center of the room uh huh that the Zen Do is set up so that there's somebody facing out and often in the center of the Zen Do facing the Buddha uh huh Teishos are given with somebody facing the Buddha yeah how is someone prepared to deal with the power

[47:00]

of the focus of the community on them as they are the center of this community and how is someone officially in any community and um this seems to me to involve all the precepts but but particularly uh this idea of not misusing the senses intoxication magic holding a certain power Sangha or community gathering Sangha no um it seems to me that the that the um eh that the Roshi uh must be completely settled in that place where there is no coming or going eh where there is no birth and no death where there is

[48:00]

no good and no bad if you will completely settled there at ease there and no not yet uh and then um because um he or she is freed from that kind of from the kind of personal suffering uh and delusions and attachments and all those things eh then uh is open and can can hear the sounds of suffering of the world and can come forth in a discriminating way you see

[49:01]

and say eh I will do this and I will not do that very clearly see uh in the Diamond Sutra it says dwell nowhere and bring forth that mind let your uh dwell nowhere and bring dwelling nowhere you are speaking from a from a place of true peace and you bring forth that mind when you bring forth that mind then you are bringing forth the mind of harmony in the world of samsara now good point you see I'm not there uh my teacher has a hot temper you see the teacher must be at a place where he or she is harmonious enough within so that

[50:01]

there is a willingness to listen from from outside uh I say in another place in in the book here uh that the teacher must be ready to hear that he is a male chauvinist you see the which I've been told by my own students uh you know that we're all in process and there's a saying in Zen that uh Shakyamuni is only halfway there yeah so uh but nonetheless there there is a certain milestone yeah go ahead I wasn't talking about you at all but you see I think it appears in all situations that uh like if you wake up in the morning and go to Zendo and then you go to a job uh which is the same group and then you come to a lecture and you only

[51:02]

uh like well in one little circle I think you can become very idealistic and then when something happens you're so dependent on that uh structure that you build up with such care you know it's like he was saying it hurts him because uh you know he had this great trust to build up over I think it's the process of becoming overly idealistic you know I think if you have computers spread out a little bit more you won't be hurt so much like I'm not hurt that much because I do love him no I see your point yes and that's why when you were saying about you know how he has to be perfect I don't have I never thought the man had to be perfect you know that's why I don't feel so bad I mean it's not that I'm unfortunate but I mean I thought he was a perfect man you know I knew that he was just a man yeah well I wasn't I wasn't really thinking so much of of of Baker O'Shea

[52:03]

there in response to your question but I think there is without reference to anybody I think that there is a certain milestone that one passes after which one is really ready to listen and is relatively harmonious inside you know and the value of these archetypes such as Buddha such as Kanjizai or Kanzeon and so on is that they shine light on our path and as to the archetype of a teacher as I said you know that's a heavy responsibility on the teacher now

[53:04]

we've gone around a little bit since your question how are we doing I think I'd like to take it a step further okay I came to Zen practice other than Confucianism a sense that I was interested in religion but all religious systems I saw were functioned in such a way that the power was always sent away to some center place yes I became attracted to Zen because it seemed more iconoclastic and I can see the value of a number of the ceremonial practices we do here the mandalic structure of the community in relation to the Buddha hall the monastery and so on in developing

[54:05]

energy and maintaining containing and allowing energy to develop and being able to experience it and express it and use the structure in that way at the same time there's this incredible potential for that structure and people within that structure to take energy into the center and never recycle it back out and that in fact people who are on the periphery or just sort of extras in a group who are not finding are not tapping into this and are not finding personal specific individuated participation in this energy and I find that that's what I used to call religion

[55:06]

and that's what I identify as the religion of the system and how does one use a system and develop a system and not allow the system to just deal with it yeah yeah and how do we know when it's happening or not yeah uh well uh I didn't expect an answer yeah we need uh uh Hanshan or or Basho or or uh or somebody equivalent to appear in the back of a hall you know and uh and uh college and then leave or we

[56:07]

need to look at the diamond sutra once in a while you know it says the Buddha is not the Buddha hm Tathagata is not the Tathagata the Buddha does not have 32 characteristic marks therefore he's called the Buddha or she we need to recognize uh as I think you're saying that that uh our idealism uh is uh conceptual and that we really must wipe away our concepts really really once and for all a beautiful thing about uh about the koan move because it has no meaning as someone

[57:14]

who represents and is raised to lay lineage I'd like to hear what your views are about peace peacefulness peace in America I don't know uh I haven't figured that one out uh I can tell you the problems of a lay center you know the lack of continuity the lack of a core group uh the fact that at our last session we didn't even have a tanto full time that is three people came in and sat in that seat one time or another and sometimes that seat was empty uh uh there there is um uh a

[58:15]

kind of person who is a monk you know uh uh uh I think this is a a valid calling uh and uh I wish a couple would show up laughter [...] they don't have they don't have to be ordained or anything laughter laughter um um um but uh um we we we talked the first night I spoke about what can be seen as the as the lay association of Buddhism from pre-Mahayana times through the Mahayana to the Kamakura Reformation and

[59:24]

down through the Topogawa period to the time when Zen monks were getting married in the late 19th century to the movement of Zen to America where the line between monk and layperson is quite fuzzy. All we need to do is to get an idea of how this contrasts with the old ways is to look at the Sino-American Buddhist Association. I was speaking this afternoon in the discussion group about this. They recently published their first issue of their journal, True Dharma Seal, with a big article entitled, The Laity is Not the Sangha. And for them, a monk is one who has taken the 250 classical precepts and the 10 big

[60:30]

precepts and the 48 little precepts and lives in a community with three other monks. And the nun is one who has gone through a similar path, only taken 348 vows and so on. Big contrast. They represent a stream that hasn't changed. And we represent, this community represents a stream that has changed to a big degree. And Diamond Sangha represents a stream that has changed to a radical degree. But I think there is a general movement away from monastic Buddhism. The monastery walls are down and we have to feel our way to find out.

[61:30]

It's as though we're in the middle of the French Revolution, you know. There's a lot of chaos and we can't really see exactly what the terms of that chaos are. It's only when we distance ourselves a little in time that we'll be able to understand just what we have been going through during this period. But I think there is a process of rapid change. Akinroshi, I suppose I could have said what I'm going to say as we walk back to your place, but I wanted to say it publicly. One of the things that I think is happening in Tenzin right now is an awareness about speech that we haven't had before. And we have a lot of seminars and a lot of energy and expense put into teaching ourselves how to communicate with each other. So while I'm sorry that maybe I don't disagree with what John said, I do want to make a public

[62:40]

statement of gratitude for a demonstration of direct speech. Because I don't think it's easy to talk about precepts. I mean, in history, as you point out, nobody's done it or people haven't done it very often. And I think specifically, you have to come into a situation where there's apparently been breaches of precepts. And you know, it's not as if it's a secret from us right now, is that I want to thank you for a demonstration of that kind of speech. Thank you. Yes? I'm a little confused by your statement that monasticism may be a problem and monasticism may be on the way. My experience at that center is that Casa Hara is a very encouraging place for us and it always has been in some ways. It works very well relative to the complexities of creating a silo on this scale.

[63:45]

If we stood on the other, I experience a lot of confusion for myself. I see a lot around me. People who are trained for roles that we don't seem to be fulfilling in a sense. I've been around, I have many peers who have been around Zen Center for more than 10 years and we're not functioning as teachers, or perhaps I should say counselors. We are a support group and administrators to some degree. And that's a very excruciating situation, maybe even a hurdle. For me, the confusion is much more in that area than a question of monasticism as a model or practice. It seems, my experience at Zen Center has been a very helpful and compact explanation of a limited commitment to that.

[64:51]

So I don't understand what you mean when you say monasticism is a problem. Maybe that's not what you're saying. I didn't say it's a problem, but what I tried to observe is that down through the centuries we can see a movement away from the very strict concept of the Buddha Sangha consisting entirely of monks with a very problematic place for nuns. That there is a certain elitist spirit in the old way of regarding the Buddha Sangha as the entire support, really,

[65:57]

of the Buddha Dharma with the laity contributing to that main stream of expression in the hope that in some future time they might themselves be a part of that elite group. We're getting away from that. That old-fashioned idea of the priesthood as an elite group. I wasn't thinking in terms specifically of any particular center, but just over the centuries we can see these changes. It would be unheard of even to this day of a Theravada monk getting married. Unheard of. But it's commonplace

[67:00]

for us that a priest or a monk marries. So I was just trying to look at the kind of historical overview that there definitely are changes and just as the Sino-American Buddhist Association shows one element, I mean, they could say well, look at us. Things have never changed. So there are things that you can say generally about this historical or specifically about this historical movement. But I think generally you can see an overall laicization of the Dharma. Yes? There seems to be some implication in your remarks at one point

[68:01]

that well, when you were talking about being healthier perhaps to have men and women living together that that might discourage or correct fascism. Make it easier to handle. Yes. The implication I wanted to point to here if you were expressing some I don't know Do you seem to have some idea of men and women living together? Oh heck no, I don't. No, no, I don't. No, no, I think that's unreal. Yes. So I think, as I said, that inevitably

[69:04]

there will be an easy drawing together of a couple in training circumstances. And when this is easy and natural then their practice is enhanced and the practice of the Sangha is enhanced. All the world loves a lover. Celibacy is a special trip and it can take place in a co-ed community or a celibate community. Certainly, as I said earlier there is a sexual component to our give and take right now So let's use it openly and frankly To be aware of that energy

[70:06]

is very good. Remember what Thich Nhat Hanh said about awareness. It's like the sun. When it shines on things then everything changes. When we are aware of this the quality of sex in our human energy then our relationship becomes somehow open and in a sense purified. Yes. I have an observation that I wanted to speak to and that is although we seem to have expressed an idea about participating in community with a kind of cooperative form

[71:07]

or a community in which we share a responsibility in some sort of way at the same time it seems to me that there has also long been a sort of fascination with charisma or a real desire to I don't know how to express it but there is some desire to have someone else solve my problems I think something very deep and very human related to maybe the age-old institution of kinship which we don't really think of as American but it seems like there is something real there that is also going on here at Cincinnati

[72:08]

I think part of the reason that the sun is so powerful and part of the reason that we are all here and that there are so many people in the classroom and so few people have gotten into kinship is that we are somehow fascinated by this, I don't know what it is, an archetype we use the term archetype but fascinated with this notion or this feeling that somebody else can lead us or guide us or help us do you understand the point? I think there are totally different myths going on they both have some strength to them so I think it's very important again that we be conscious of this pull that we all of us have for passive dependency to have some figure

[73:14]

tell us what's what and this is why I appreciated the first question that's the kind of action that we want a challenge and what makes for real community health and not a kind of sticky cohesion but real community health is the feeling that he is the teacher alright or she is the teacher alright but it's my responsibility to keep that person the teacher in other words to check that person see that what you said right there made me really mad you know to call it and to try to work it out

[74:16]

because in that kind of mondo in that kind of dialogue emerges a synthesis that neither could achieve alone neither the teacher nor the sangha could achieve alone so there must be challenge the students must be ready to use the teaching and again not be used by it great Joshu a monk asked him how may I use the 24 hours he said you are used by the 24 hours I use the 24 hours there's a big difference there see

[75:19]

how do you hear my words? do you use my words or are you used by them? you know so when we catch ourselves falling into this kind of passive dependency then it's important to sort of summon up the essential gumption and speak up the person who said to me yes this was not a buddhist teacher by the way yes my teacher is sexist and anti-semitic but he is the guru see I really am appalled by that kind of attitude I think it's very harmful and dangerous you see it in the worst examples

[76:23]

you know in the monies and people like that yeah I think we have some institutions here like for example the race platform that often the teacher lectures on which on the one hand is designed to to help the teacher and to reinforce that sense of authority but on the other hand it's kind of hard when they're out there and you're down here to really assert yourself well I can see that it would be awkward to speak out in a group unless you're really kind of worked up but it's certainly possible to corner the teacher afterwards and say hey you know when you said that in lecture I didn't really understand or whatever you want to say about it you know I thought it was a mistake or whatever you want to say I don't speak

[77:28]

on one of these at the Diamond Sangha I sit in a chair but the reason for that is so I can see everybody and everybody can see me Thank you.

[77:38]

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