This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. I'd like to start by speaking some more about Atsu Bodhashin, Dogen's notion of the efficacy of aspiration and how aspiration starts with citta, discerning consciousness. And then talk some about hridaya and vridra. Aspiration. Just now, as I was leaving the abbot's cabin, I was thinking, in some ways, it's a dangerous thing to do, to make a ritual out of vows.

[01:14]

And then it becomes a learned process, like we do at the start of our service. And then maybe in another way it's a great thing. Maybe if we do it a hundred times, one out of the hundred will be totally present for it and open to it. Over a decade ago, someone came to talk to me at City Center, someone I'd actually known for a long time. And he said to me, my son, who's 31 years old, has brain cancer. and he's going to die in about six to nine months. Could you teach me how to work with this? And I remember that moment well.

[02:26]

How do you teach someone how to work with... their son going to die. And who's not going to die? You know, there's an image, I think it comes from Nansen, and he says, it's like this Zen practice. You're facing a cliff. It's a mile high and it's a hundred miles wide. Now go straight ahead. That way when we confront, whether we like it or not, or whether we've designed it that way or not, we confront the human condition. And we get a taste of what a formidable proposition it is.

[03:31]

Teach me how to work with something that I don't want to have happen. Teach me how to work with something that even thinking about it makes me sit here with you, agitated, distracted, upset. And then this delicate balance of the practice, the request of practice. In one hand, it's saying to us, get real. Everything's impermanent. Everyone's impermanent. All these desires and aversions that speak with authority in your life, they're not going to make it work. And how that brings up for us, the way I would talk about it is an existential dilemma.

[04:40]

But from the point of view of practice, it brings up for us a particular kind of challenge. How do we have the honesty or the courage to be honest and the clarity and the forthrightness? to meet life as it is. How do we do that as the vulnerable human being we are? From the point of view of practice, there's like two primary ingredients, and one is in the category of stabilization, reassurance, trusting the process. And then the other one is the courage, the resilience to come forth and be what is.

[05:50]

And Jogram Trungpa said once in a talk he gave, he says, it's like this. It's like you're in a shower. and there's really cold water and really hot water, and they're both pouring opium. And we're like, well, can I just mix them and get... It's a good question. Sometimes we can, sometimes they come in separate doses. But I say that to set a context for vow. I mean, we can say, save all sentient beings. And it's marvelous. It completely expresses the wisdom and compassion of our practice. But can it in equal parts...

[06:58]

draw us into where we are and how we are in that moment. I still remember when this guy said this to me. And I've known him a long time and he has an illustrious career in many wonderful ways. And I think to be confronted with something that my smarts, my skills, my what would you call it, my connections. They count for nothing under these conditions. How to stand in that place and let it And then there's this dilemma for us because we can be frightened, we can be overwhelmed, we can be resentful, we can be avoidant.

[08:18]

Quickly distract myself from that. It's too much. Or the very same existential dilemma, can bring us more fully into what we are and who we are and how we are in that moment. And what's the aspiration? What's the involvement in the human condition? What's the involvement in the person that we are that helps turn it one way rather than the other? And can that be turned into, can that be articulated? Can that be felt in a way that orients us into being what we are, who we are in that moment?

[09:29]

So that kind of aspiration. Maybe we could say, well, the words don't need to change, but something of the heartfeltness. Maybe that would be a good exercise for us to do collectively. Considering that kind of vow, what words would you use? How would you express it? And then Dogen Zenji says, that kind of aspiration. He goes on in Hatsubuddhashin to hold up the virtue of vow.

[10:34]

And he's talking about the classic vow to save all sentient beings. And now it lifts us beyond the... the self-centered concerns. But I said what I did. I recounted that story for this reason. Because vow isn't to dissociate from the person we are and have a lofty, exalted aspiration. then there's the danger of a certain kind of duality. Vow is to plant us fully in the person that we are and literally discover this is Buddha being.

[11:34]

That's vow. Master, is vow the same as devotion? I was talking here about vow. The translation is as an expression of aspiration. We'll get to devotion in a minute. Maybe we could say that's the act of expression. But it's, you know, what Dogen's talking about here, he's saying, And we use citta for this. That very same discriminating mind that goes around drawing conclusions and judgments and getting us into all sorts of predicaments. That very same aspect of consciousness is the catalyst, is what puts together this aspiration, this vow.

[12:38]

which in a way is great news. Because citta is in many ways one of the more accessible aspects of our consciousness. The hridaya, mostly we have to engage carefully and diligently the function of practice to start to make substantial contact. We settle into sushin and then we start to notice the more subtle workings of our being. And in Virtha, Virtha is the, as I was saying a couple of days ago, it's the learning realization that happens in awareness.

[13:56]

We've got that one going most of the time. this is good news. You know, and I have this acronym, you know, notice, acknowledge. Well, that acknowledge works pretty well in the realm of citta. It also works well in the realm of hriddhaya and virdha, too. So, for each of us to explore maybe what we could call heartfelt vow or aspiration. And then to not let it be a new and improved duality. When I'm really doing it, I'll be this wonderful person and I won't find myself at the coffee-tea area thinking, should I have Earl Grey or Jasmine?

[15:11]

by the dilemma of that great event. And then, as I say, the challenge of the stabilization reassurance and the opening, the courageous opening to what is. And I think there, Kim, devotion is one form of expression. I think most Zen students are natural skeptics, so devotion is a kind of distasteful notion. And we can work with the term as we wish.

[16:18]

Yes? I just wanted to go back to the three consciousnesses. Yeah. Before we go into devotion much more so. I'm clear on the citta is discriminating line. Yeah. That persuades us to vow. Mm-hmm. It sounds like it's insight. Yeah. Maybe that's a way to put it, yeah. Okay. Would you give me a refresher on... Hidayah means heart. Heart. Oh, right. Okay, yeah. So you said it takes more settling to contact it, but I can't remember. Yeah. And was that more like the emotional body? Well, I would say... It's helpful to think of many expressions of practice as happening on a continuum. There can be a moment of awareness when we notice.

[17:23]

But in that noticing, we're still quite caught up in the world according to me. That can ripen And we can feel more deeply the world according to me. We can feel it beyond thought and construct. We can ripen into a sense of the human condition that's not so singular to me. It's more of a collective. And then it can ripen into something that goes beyond any definition. And so I would say in many aspects of practice there's that continuum. And I would add to that, it's not so much, well, year one I'm here, year three I'm over here. No, it's very fluid.

[18:28]

Where does Hidayah fit into that continuum? Well, I digressed a little into wanting to illustrate the sense of continuum. And I intend to talk about this in a few minutes, but it's settling into being. You know, Kariyeros used to call it. Settling the self on the self. Dugan Zenji's English translation that Kaz uses, Dugan Zenji says, when you find yourself where you are, and that has its own continuum too. Everything from noticing in a moment, I was just somewhere and I have no idea where I was, but look, I'm here again. a deep sense of being, or a full sense of being.

[19:43]

And I think the word heartfelt or wholehearted, I think the term heart in English is a helpful one, because I think we use it quite a bit And we use wholehearted and heartfelt. There's something there we already have within the propositions of our language that helps us. So we could say to be wholehearted and heartfelt in being. And in a way I was saying, what is a wholehearted and heartfelt vow? In contrast to what should I be doing? Or who should I be? What should I be? Not to say citta can't come up with a skillful response.

[20:54]

But the relationship is different. To get from what I should be what I give my being to. There's a few more steps in between. And one of them is heartfelt. I'm not in the midst of chanting it now. Capturing is a sense of heartfelt and own being. Yeah. And I think if you keep that notion, you know, settling the self on the self, or as Dogen says, when you find yourself where you are, own being, you can see, as a notion, it appears across the literatures.

[22:02]

I mean, it's... You know, I quoted Katayuri Roshi, but not to say, you know, that he was the origin of that notion. It goes the whole way back to early Buddhism. Yeah, it's common. Why does it mean to go away from itself in order to come back and find itself again? No, I mean, I'm not kidding. What is it about the looking back of discriminating mind that then helps us rejoin ourselves in some way? I think what you say is one function of citta. Certainly you can do that. It takes the self as an object. and says, what should the self do in this situation?

[23:05]

What would I do here? Which is weird if you think about it. Well, it formulates, and one of the ways it formulates is to take the self as an object, or to take other as an object. But it can also, and I think devotion is a good example, The Blessed Virgin becomes the object of devotion, and then in that devotion there's a connecting. And I think when Dogen's saying aspiration and vow, he's saying an aspiration and vow initiated by citta stimulates connecting. And I think it's a very interesting notion.

[24:18]

The way citta, like that story I told about my friend coming and saying, help me work with this. What an interesting choice of words, huh? Help me to work with my son's dying. I know you've done a lot of hospice, so you know, he didn't use this word, but it's implied, you know the formula, you know the process. What did you do? What did you say to him? What did I say to him? What do we do in any situation? We try to get close. Tell me about your son. How's he doing?

[25:19]

How are you doing? What's going on? If we stand separate, we can have all sorts of interesting and sometimes thoroughly stupid ideas. But when we get close, when we start to connect, we literally know more about what we're trying to talk about. I would say that's our practice. We make contact. We don't stand separate from the world and say, well, maybe we do, but I have odyssey of all beings, but then how is it for all beings? How are they doing? Because that's... part of the engagement that will enable that vow to be actualized. I know experientially we all, most of us have the impression that we encounter our own suffering before we encounter the suffering of others.

[26:34]

Yet in a sense, the suffering of others sort of sets the stage. maybe our realization of our own suffering, and maybe the cause or the origin, it also gives us the tools to discern our own suffering. So in a sense, one might say, in fact, suffering of others or this universal suffering precedes or has precedence over our own suffering. And I wonder to what extent... the vow to save all beings is not also one has to open up to the suffering of others, to that universal suffering, or maybe even embrace that suffering in order to be liberated, some except from one's own suffering. Otherwise, we're just closed up, shut up in our

[27:39]

own self-centered suffering. Yeah. I think as well as citta being a gift, when we use it skillfully, caring is a gift when we use it skillfully. When we literally care what's happening to someone or everyone else, that self-involvement, that self-preoccupation, lessons. Or if we curve enough, we, as Dogen likes to say, we forget. We forget the self. Yeah. He wasn't suffering a lot. It's because he encountered the suffering of others. Yeah. That sickness, suffering, that he awakened at least to the The aspiration awakened.

[28:42]

And then he went off, and then he suffered plenty. As far as we know. That's the trajectory of the story. So, just a long-winded way of saying... the vow that arises out of something heartfelt. And then what I would add to that personally is then the vow, the aspiration that finds endless ways of expressing itself. And I think that's the marvelous thing about what we're doing.

[29:43]

We are in a container that encourages us and instructs us on how to turn ourselves into expressing evolved practice. Even when we find ourselves deliberating on whether to have Earl Grey or jasmine tea, we can come into awareness and see the functioning of citta there, and see the world it creates and how it relates to its own creation. We can see what is tea in this moment. And then, so then I wonder, is that good enough on vow?

[30:45]

You've got all that mastered now? And maybe it would be an interesting thing, I don't know if we should do it now or not, but to think what vow, if you were to say, well, if I was to say it in my own words or feelings, it would be like this. Personally, for a long time, the word save, given my early Catholic upbringing, didn't sit well with me. So, in my mind, I'd always be like, take that one out and awaken with. Yeah, that works for me. But consider that. And then there's something implicit, as there is in practice.

[31:47]

It's like we diligently practice awareness of the body, but in doing so, some experiential process is going on. So in vow, and I'll come back to that, so in vow, and crafting the heartfelt vow, underneath that we're crafting trust in the process of practice. Like to say, if you were to put it in your own words, what would it be? It's like saying, when it's expressed like this, It evokes commitment and trust in me.

[32:47]

The yes of me comes forward. When you put it like that, when I put it like that, sometimes it's other-dependent, sometimes it's self-dependent. And not trusting the process. We shift the context from the karmic to the dharmic. Okay, I'm at Tassajara, it's the fall of 2015, and we're this many days into the practice period, and we're this many days... And in some ways, we're creating... a knowable, and I would say attempting to create a manageable formulation of existence.

[33:50]

And why I used that incident of my friend coming, in a way we could translate his words into this. In an unmanageable world, in an uncontrollable world, what do you do? Isn't that similar to trusting the process, though? Well, we could say that question could be responded to by saying that. From a karmic point of view, we can be distressed, overwhelmed, discouraged, resentful, all sorts of afflictive states. And then, how do we come to trust the process?

[35:00]

And what I was saying a few months ago is when you engage the vow, when you let the vow stimulate your commitment, what arises is trusting the process. Does that make sense? Yeah, I guess where it gets problematic in my mind is that, like, yeah, then we can trust the process and all of this, like, being overwhelmed and not knowing an X, Y, Z can fit in these little places. that have been outlined to us in the process and the way it can be taken off this mind that really just doesn't know and put into this thing that's in time you know I'm not so sure about that I'm not so sure I know no but you know what I would say Benson that's what we need to be careful with that we don't

[36:10]

discard this formulation of existence and replace it with this new and improved one. Take up this new and improved one and everything will be just fine. It's still a cliff one mile high and a hundred miles wide. There's still this... Go beyond the known. Go beyond what your being says. This is how to make it work. And I would say to do that, we do pay close attention. Gene says, well, what did you say to him? Well, we got into it. We made contact.

[37:12]

We engaged and talked about and felt together all the pieces of it. And in doing so, trusting the process. The process holds it not from a place of knowing, but more from a place of not knowing. How should he negotiate his son's death? I don't know. I don't have any magic formula. Every person's different. What's right for him? It can unfold in the engagement. And I would say that's what trusting the process is. I said it could be.

[38:18]

You can't formulate on that side either, right? My thought was that I would have thought it would have been the inverse where the karmic response would be to resist the feelings that arise in that moment whereas the dharmic response would be to actually engage and feel that resentment anger or whatever is the rising result. Look, here's my experience of the moment. That him coming to me and saying what he did was an enormously courageous thing to do. This was a man of great accomplishment. He designed the Bay Bridge. He's an architect. He's done all sorts of noteworthy, substantial designs and buildings.

[39:22]

He's a man of success. And here is something that makes it all disappear. And he comes and says, please help me. I thought that was an enormously courageous and powerful Dharma gate to enter. That was my experience of it. And I do think, as you say, are we ever just over here stuck in our selfishness? Well, sometimes, but often in powerful moments they're both going for us. We feel the power of the moment. And I would say usually what disconnects us it's hard to settle the self on the self even though we're glimpsing something vast.

[40:32]

We glimpse something vast and still some part of us wants to get out of this. This is powerful to face And is it over yet? Practice period is wonderful, and many more days do we have to go? I'm so glad I'm here, and I've counted them out. We're complex. So that initiation, right? Yes, James. Just trusting the process, the mile-high, 100-mile-wide cliff, the yes, even this man coming to you and saying, how do I work with this?

[41:39]

Yes. Isn't this all another way of talking about faith? Or is faith something different? In Zen, we're a little bit afraid of that word. Isn't this a way of being afraid of the word Zen? We prefer trust. It's kind of... It's more Zen. I think part of our fear of the word faith is that faith in something other than just being. And maybe in Zen we would say, faith in interbeing. And I ended last time by saying, coming from the mind of interbeing.

[42:40]

And all of this, whether we're talking about karmic or dharmic, or vow, or stuck in agitation, they all express interbeing. And so the mind of our practice is whatever you're manifesting, it's the ground of practice. Even if you're in the corner, in fetal position, that's intervening. Even if you're standing up straight and something settling deeply the enormity of the human condition into being. And this is what gives us access to how do I practice with this? We notice, we acknowledge, we make contact, we experience.

[43:49]

In another one of his festivals, Gyoji Dogen says, aspiration, practice, realization, nirvana. But it doesn't make as handy an acronym as noticing. Maybe it does in Japanese. Maybe it works very well. But this sense, and Gyoji means continuous practices, like we're always in the process of interbeing. And it's fluid. And this trust lets us enter in, lets us be part of it. The trust allows us to be part of a process rather than in control of a process. As he said to me, how do I work with this?

[44:57]

One of my thoughts was, this is going to take you apart. At the end of this process, you are not going to be the person you are now. And we could say that to ourselves too. at the end of this practice period, we're not going to be the person who started it. I'd like to say the practice period, because the very first retreat I did in Bangkok I went there asking if they would teach me how to do Vipassana. And so they said, okay. And then they put me in this room, about seven feet long and about this wide. And they said, stay in that room.

[46:02]

Only leave to go to the bathroom. We'll bring you some food every day. And then they gave me these practices to do. And about the third or fourth day, I was going to the bathroom, and I had this thought, I'm not going to be the same person after this. And I had this jolt of fear. And then honestly, then when I thought, I wasn't such a great person anyway. So I went back in the room. the process is going to transform us. We don't know quite exactly what that is or what that means. We can rely some on the wisdom and compassion of the heritage of the Dharma that we're in.

[47:05]

And we can also develop a trust by engaging the process skillfully and compassionately. In one way we're in the structure and it's making us subject to the process, but in another way we're engaging it and discovering the process, the efficacy of it through our own efforts. So we learn to, we earn our trust in the process by how we engage it. And that's one of the stabilizing factors. And then, as I say, the other stabilizing factors, you know, I spoke before, especially towards the end of the last machine, of gladdening the heart.

[48:14]

You know? when we start to settle in, when we start to make contact, before we make contact, it's all theoretical. You can sit with someone and abstractly discuss, well, it'll be like this, and when your son's this close to death, you'll probably feel like this or that, and we'll talk like this and that. That all might feel quite safe and maybe edifying, but when you're in it, It's got you. You don't have it. That's the nature of practice. And whether that's faith, James, I don't know. Maybe to you that's science, like, just right in the ballpark. I think of it as trust. I think it's also interesting for me that that man who comes to ask you that question, it's an extraordinary act, I would say, act of faith with trust.

[49:18]

Yeah, I would too. Even if you say you don't have the answer, that he comes and asks you that. Yeah. And that's entering the process. Fundamental. Yeah. That first step. Yeah. That opening up. That first step. Yeah. The willingness to immerse. immersing body and mind deeply in the way. You know? The immersion. You know? And then the engagement. Yes, you saw. And yet he'd come to a place that is kind of founded on uncertainty and not knowing rather than a religious institution which is based on some certainties like life after death and karmic rewards in the next life or good behavior in this life and things like that.

[50:18]

So he had left the world of certainty to step into a greater unknown. Was he a practitioner? Did he know? Howard around the edges. So he had some idea that you weren't going to go. He pretty much knew. Oh, he knew all that. And he's a smart guy. He had a pretty savvy notion of what he was talking about, but didn't know it from the inside out. Yeah. His son died. It all worked out according to plan. Yeah. Did he practice with it? He didn't have a choice in the matter. It was too big to put in a box and take out of the box when he felt like it.

[51:27]

It was wherever he looked, there it was. Did you want to say something? In some way, I was thinking of it as internal, like maybe individualistic or something, but that it can be, in fact, as you mentioned in this example, something shared in some way, like contact as something that's happening or contacting the experience with another person. If we think back to the notion of shunyata as interbeing, implicit in that is the notion of a separate self.

[52:40]

It's simply that it's a notion. And as we continue to practice, we will see that what's going on goes beyond that notion. And I told that story because life and death, having someone you love die, we all get it. Maybe you haven't lived through it, but we all get it. Oh yeah, that would be really, really difficult. That would be a heartbreak. yes Tony I was just wondering like we're talking about the vow I suppose just my experience is that in terms of what I've done in my life the body set for vow is like a secondary reason things that have motivated me more are I suppose seeing people people I know people that I respect and teachers seeing their actions and

[53:52]

and following them. And I'm thinking that's probably more like it. And then you experience things and you realise the benefit of it and then you do it more. And I'm thinking, you know, that's the way Dogen worked, you know, the two inspirational stories I know of the Tenzo, the old Tenzo dried mushrooms and how he went to China and found a teacher and was inspired by that sort of thing. So people relate to people rather than, and their own experience rather than just... have vows. I'm sure there are people that are particularly motivated, but generally, I guess, my feeling is that other people are generally more motivated by what other people and their own experiences. My experience is all sorts of things motivate people. But I completely agree with you. I think especially someone we respect and admire, we are susceptible to how they embody the Dharma.

[55:00]

I would say that's certainly my experience. I remember having an experience with one teacher, and just the way he stood up and stood in front of me struck me so much, and I don't remember what he said. But I remember that. It's like the content of the words weren't as memorable to me as a way he could give presence. The feeling I got was he was, with his body, he was saying, I am now totally present with you. I was like, whoa, okay. Yeah.

[56:04]

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. beneath all of those layers of toughness and difficulty to where I can at least remember that I made a vow at some point if there was a really good reason for that, you know, and that the bodhisattvas then made a lot of sense of like, it's not going to be so easy, but I will have this experience of deciding it was important to remember. Exactly. And like I was saying earlier, you know, in some ways, citta... is the most accessible of the varieties of consciousness. Discerning, discriminating mind is on the go a lot of the time.

[57:06]

So to take it as a tool is a skillful thing to do. And even in neuroscience they've discovered that bringing forth the expression of compassion into the cortex affects the hippocampus, the amygdala, the prefrontal cortex. It sort of works in that way too. Somehow over time, the more often it was invoked or something, the more deeply it settled into some place that wasn't word, so it was more of a feeling as opposed to like, what does my vow, how did I say that?

[58:09]

It would be less like that. And maybe that's just habit. Maybe you invoke it enough time and it goes into your body and you don't think about it in the same way. I don't think it lessens it necessarily, but... I think it's a little more demanding. If we're saying it thoughtlessly, that sinking in is not being facilitated. There's something when we bring heart into it, when we bring intentional involvement in what it's saying, then I think that sinking in is facilitated. Okay? So we got an aspiration done? You got that one now? Take it off. And then Hridaya, and coming from the mind of interbeing.

[59:10]

In Zen, there's two interesting terms, and one is Shoshin, Shoshin, and one is Mushin. And I talked before about Shoshin, it's this kind of fluid mind, you know, is where that Czech physicist whose name I can never remember, who talks about flow. How do you pronounce his name? Say it again. Yes, that person. He made a study of this notion of flow. And when I talked about it before, I was thinking it matches up with some of the attributes that are listed.

[60:16]

This fluidity, malleability of mind, of consciousness. That we're in the middle of something and we're capable of going with however it goes. I think of improv theaters like that. There's presence, there's connection, there's attention, but there's fluidity. And it requires a certain kind of attribute of non-attached attention. And sometimes zazen is called objectless concentration. There's concentration, but the object isn't stationary, it isn't a single object, it's whatever comes into being. In some ways we can not exactly induce it, but we can invite it.

[61:32]

It's like we enter a situation with a sense of availability. And then it moves whatever way it moves. So we don't come at it. It's something to do with trust in the process, the process of awareness, connection. something to do with don't-know mind, that we've let go of, and the result should be this. Here's what should happen. The need to control is diminished, and the willingness to just be present and engaged. However, so that kind of mind... You know, in saying what I've been saying, receptive samadhi, receptive attention has that kind of quality to it.

[62:39]

Directed attention, make contact with what's being manifest, receptive attention, relate to it. Whatever comes up, relate to it. And this is a very helpful training for us because Chitta wants to interject and say, wait a minute, I'll tell you what to think. I'll tell you what this is. Let me discriminate a little bit and then pass a judgment and then I'll suggest a behavior. It just totally interrupts that fluidity. In some ways, it's quite a profound expression of trusting the process. And I think serving in our formal arioki system, it's a wonderful example because you have a grid.

[63:53]

Okay, we're going to do this, you're one, you're two, and you go there and you go there. And then you can't totally control the process and you need to ad-lib. And can that happen fluidly? Okay, this side is going much slower than this side, I'll go there. And when it's allowed to flow, that has a feeling of play. It's improv. It's more like a play than something's broke and it has to be fixed.

[64:56]

Someone did something wrong, and I have to do the right thing. It's a fluid mind. That kind of quality. And part of how we can make it a walking around mind is as we notice, as we contact this quality of don't-know mind. Citta wants to interject and impose not only a definition, but also a judgment. And this can happen in a flash. Can we hold that as an example of interbeing?

[65:57]

This experience arose, triggered this response and this judgment. We hold it with this capacity to adjust to what's happening without needing to imprint it with some control. Let's make this manageable. In a way, we could say that's part of what we're doing when we, you know, when we disapprove. Look at what that person's doing. What a terrible Zen student. I'll tell the Eno. Well, I had a question about that, or just, I don't know, comment or something, like... I remember reading in one of Suzuki Roshi's talks, he calls that water logic versus concrete logic.

[67:04]

The water logic is the water is adapting to the waterway and it's not like setting itself concrete and stopping. So it's just flowing. And at the same time, we're in a very directed water system here. I mean, it's... Sometimes going with the flow, if I went with the flow, I make it to the Zendo every morning. So there's this, I guess, this dynamic, which of course is flow itself, of this is the shin-yi, or this is the visual, right? This is the vow. I know I'm speaking intellectually, not necessarily. The vow, I think, is somatic for me, not intellectual. And then going with the flow sometimes seems contrary to to that. It was an interesting example I used. I used serving aureoki, right? What you could say is a highly structured event. Like, you do not say to the servers, go in and improvise.

[68:06]

I could, though. That would be fun, actually. But I mean, it's just like, it's just a case of point that though on Rio, I've gone back and forth and went, should we serve? positions one and two symmetrically, so that Paul is served at the same time Linda is served, and then what happens when Gene has a special second pot, and there's two people at Paul and Gene, but there's no one serving Linda, and I feel like it's not going with the flow at all. It's like, you know, it's like this, and then it's that way, and then it's this way, and then I talk to the time zone. He says, no, make sure it's symmetrical. I'm like, all right, it's symmetrical, but I was going with the flow of, let's not make it symmetrical. Let's just, however you show up there, when you show up, and let's be more intuitive about it and not so... concrete about it. And then he said, no, make it symmetrical. It's like, all right, so I'm going with the flow of this. Exactly. Yes. Well, why do I have to go with this flow and not my flow? Because we're part of a system. And we've, you know...

[69:15]

You know, in some monastic systems, everybody does the same thing, which happens to be the one we're in. Yeah, that's right. We're the school of fish. In some systems, monastic systems, everybody does their own thing. Do you know the name? Do you know the terms for those? Actually, there's a noun that describes and then there's actually one in the middle where they do some things together and a lot of things part. So not to say this is the only way to do it, but to say this is the process we're committing to. So it's presented to us as it is, and we give over to it.

[70:26]

And that's discipline. We become disciples of this way. And you may end the practice period and say, never again. I'm going to New Camaldolese, will you just get your hut and do whatever you want? Yes. And then St. Benedict came along and said, well, no, we're all going to do the same thing. And the Camaldolese, who heard some Benedictine, was sort of... something between. Yes. There are times where they do things together, and they do things apart, and Brother David is very keen on that solution because it fits him very well. Yes. Yeah.

[71:33]

But I think we give over to the system, and then we realize even within a structured situation, there's fluidity. But hopefully the structured situation supports the process of practice. Maybe we could say, well, if you just said to me, just make up your own schedule, just do whatever you want. Something of meaning, you know. of being challenged to meet something completely beyond my preferences wouldn't happen. I think that's part of the wisdom and compassion of having a system. I think it helps too with the attenuation of self if you're not able to, you can't always make this, you're not, you can make a lot of decisions in your mind and still you're getting up and you're going to the Zen though.

[72:35]

Or you're still, you're eating when you're eating or you're coming to study so it's like, the inability to manipulate the schedule, I think is a really wonderful mirror for watching the mind jump around. And at the same time, I find being in this role a little frustrating at times because it's like, I want to use my discernment. Like, let's just not make it symmetrical. Let's just serve Linda, be efficient. And then to have that countermanded, if you will, which I think was the original form anyway. So I guess I was countermanding the original form. But it's just like, so it's like a sort of, yes, I'm going to, it's helpful for the ego to be attenuated and I get to see myself bump up against the structure, whether it's the schedule or like the oryoki serving form or having a tanto above me. And at the same time, there's also, I think, the other side, the shadow side maybe a little bit is then when do we get to actually use our discerning judgment?

[73:37]

If I'm always following the forms, I'm becoming an automaton is also a way for people to escape. You just don't notice them so much because they're not the rebels. They're the ones who are doing everything perfectly and not, like, in a way they also can avoid, you know, for them it might be easy to have the structure. And for those of us who the structure's not easy, you get to see us wiggle around more. I'm talking about myself. So I just think that there's also could be a shadow side to having such a structured formal environment? Of course. I mean, I would say there's almost no aspect of practice that doesn't have a shadow side. You know? Every aspect of practice needs some kind of balancing. And I would say within this structure there is moments situations that require fluid mind, that requires an on-the-spot improvised response.

[74:47]

But the structure makes it evident, you know? And that's that interesting way, you know, Gurdjieff, do you know who Gurdjieff is? The spiritual seeker, He wrote a book called Meetings with Remarkable Men. He was a spiritual seeker who went through Asia and explored many traditions and then came back and created his own. And it was quite popular. No, he didn't come back to America. I think he primarily came back to France. In Switzerland. And there were Gurdjieff centers in America. But anyway, just... You better talk to him, although he's dead, but he wrote the book. It was a long time ago. It was a long time ago before there were women.

[75:50]

It was the time of patriarchy when women were invisible. Now, you almost made me forget the story, which is this. So he also made up certain rituals. And in one ritual, everybody was doing as best they could. They were chanting and they were moving their arms. And the thing was to be as precisely choreographed, to do it at exactly the same moment. And then in the middle of them doing that, there would be one person who would come out and would be doing utterly random improvised movements. And kind of hold them both. And then most of the time, you're part of the group that's doing exactly the same thing. And then occasionally, you're the one who goes out and does the chaos.

[77:09]

A fish that's going somewhere else. Or let's let go. Well, I would say it's impossible to completely control and choreograph things to perfection. So we get our built-in chaos. No matter how diligent you are, there's a certain chaotic play in your own being and then part of that fluid mind is accommodating that. So this kind of goes back to what you said last time and it takes us back to the bridge builder too because I feel like there's this pattern in the stories that you're telling in which discriminating mind gets annihilated or suspended. You said he faced a situation in which he couldn't put it in a box and decided whether or not He wanted to engage with it.

[78:13]

In that sense, discriminating mind is completely offline. It's like, I'm going to decide whether or not I want to deal with my... Actually, people do decide that. But let's just say, you don't really have a lot of choice about whether or not to kill their sons. But then his response to that was to come to you with Chitba and say, as well as for Daya, and say, can you give me some guidelines on how to work with... And I think that part of the story tells us you can't annihilate chitta. You can remove it from its role of absolute authority. Our practice is not to annihilate any part of ourselves. Our practice is to bring it into harmony rather than have it... its influence dictate, try to dictate the nature of reality and what is, to be part of what is.

[79:15]

Going back to Heather's question about the tanto, and actually the tanto told me once that there's an illusion of upward trajectory at Zen Center, that you become tanto. And then what? He's like, you could very well become Fukuten after being Tanto. And he said, actually, he was Fukuten before he became Tanto. That was, you know, so it wasn't like, you know, director of Tanto. And I guess I want to know, with these uncomfortable situations or these situations that arise around power and authority and relinquished power or relinquished authority, like he used to be the Eno or he used to be the Tenzo, and then there's something that you know is describing. What's our opportunity? What do we learn from the contact? So, for example, I've been in the position where the heads of who says you need to do this to servers.

[80:23]

I've also been in the position of head server and having some... I was head server at Green Gulch once, and our... There was a very senior priest who was our soku, and then it was the intensive. And we had a visitor staying with us from City Center. And my crew was kind of rowdy. They were kind of a rowdy crew. And the soku was trying to get them to, like, chill out. And the person from City Center looked at me as head server, and she said, like, aren't you going to do anything? And I thought about, like, my position and I thought about, like, what I could do and I said, I don't think there's anything I can do. So I've had this, like, this experience at Zen Center of, like... So when you tell that anecdote, are you implying that that was an exquisite example of...

[81:27]

fluid mind, or are you saying that was the impossibility of a so-called structured orderly process? The impossibility and the pain or the friction that can come up around that, like the pain that, you know... this younger student was looking to me as the head server to do something where I was kind of thinking that's the Soku's job, not my job, doing my best. I couldn't really... So what are we to learn from all these situations? Does that make any sense? Of course it does. Inquiring mind. Trusting the process rather than needing to craft the perfect way of thinking about what happened. You know? In meeting the moment.

[82:28]

And so we could say, well, what do you do? Under those conditions, what's the perfect response? Come on. And then you'll go back to Green Gongshan and relive that moment. Or you'll send them a letter saying, you know that time you said that? I've been thinking about it. And I'd like to go on the record as having said this. It's like the situation says, this is what's happening. Be this. And we do what we do. And... And then our mind can say, failed, succeeded, said the right thing, said the wrong thing. But the heart of our practice is what's happening, what's appropriate response.

[83:37]

And then we do whatever we do, and then what's happening now, and what's appropriate response. continuous process. And can you get that moment back? No. You could harbor in your heart some resentment for that person, or admiration, or whatever. Continuous being, continuous practice, what's happening now, what is to practice with it? And discriminating mind, citta, you know, you could say, well, isn't that kind of like very heady? Well, it can be. But hopefully it initiates heart practice, you know, that there's a way in which we're coming into a connection and responding from connection.

[84:49]

rather than, okay, what did the Eno tell me to do under these circumstances? Well, maybe the Eno didn't tell you anything, because the Eno never thought that, say, when a senior person comes from city center to Kassahara and is on the serving crew, which could happen, because some of them are coming for Sashin, you better talk to her soon. But you know what I'm getting at? When we want the right answer, we're missing interbeing. We meet the situation and then even if what we said or did was a total disaster, The whole crew ran out the door screaming. Fluid mind.

[85:54]

Now what? I'll go in and make an announcement and say, I'm sorry, but lunch has been cancelled. There'll be food at the back door. Have these situations, because you're a senior Dharma teacher, And I know everything. Are you free from these now? And what's that about? Do I have to wait 40 years? Stay in the front and laugh about it? There's no escape. There's no role you can get in Zen center or outside of Zen center or in life that will say, okay, now it's all covered.

[87:00]

And it would be utterly boring if there was. It would be the most boring thing in the world. It's very interesting. These impromptu moments can feel like an affliction or they can feel like play. And that's an interesting thing. So I would say citta can invite us. Like when we say those things, oh, okay. Respond appropriately to the moment and not be trapped in some notion What is the prescribed right response? I get people coming to me saying, my 31-year-old son is dying. Here, take it.

[88:03]

Get me through it. Make it work. Show me how to work with this. you could say, oh, well, that's so much heavier than someone from city center saying, your crew's rivalry. I don't know if it is or it isn't, but I think, you know, in Tibetan Buddhism, there's a saying, may you get enough suffering to support and stimulate your practice. And I think in Zen we might say, may you get enough unexpected and challenging experiences to support your practice.

[89:12]

Well, I think of citta as an orientation and an introduction. And then engagement. And then hopefully in engagement, you know, the other term that we're not going to get to because we're going to end in a few minutes, mushin, no mind. It's like when we thoroughly engage, that calculating, that discerning aspect of citta falls away. And then also, as we engage, it will draw us down into being.

[90:36]

It will draw us down in the heart. Of course not. We're not watching ourselves running a commentary on it. We often have some kind of narrative going, but usually the narrative is in the content and not the process. We're not thinking, okay, now I'm walking across the courtyard and I'm mindful and some people are admiring me and I'm... You know, we're just in the throes of it. There isn't that kind of articulation. So, in talking about it, just to say that citta can have an orientation and an initiating function.

[91:47]

You know? And, you know, We chant it every morning. I take refuge in Buddha. And then, what I was saying earlier, in our walking about day, it translates into action. The orientation of vow translates into action. how do I talk to the serving crew when they're being rightly? How do I meet this person in front of me? But hopefully that initiates a sense of being more than just abstract thinking. So that, yes, of course, it's...

[92:51]

It's not just an intellectual pursuit. Did you have your hand up, Yoni? Oh, Tim. I was close. Sorry, Tim. Go ahead. So you mentioned that we come from a school where we all do the same thing. Yeah, we do. But we don't quite, because we study different books, we exercise in different ways, we go to bag lunch, and there's all sorts of different things that we can do. Can you comment on why we have these options? Why we have these options? The same thing. Why don't we all read the same book? Good thinking, Tim. Good thinking. Pre-packaged bag lunches. There's only one person buying it right now. There's a quote from Suzuki Roshi.

[93:56]

I don't know if you've ever heard it, but if you want to see how different people are, ask them all to do the same thing. And he was talking about standing in Shashu. He says, get them all to stand in Shashu. You'll see they're all slightly different, or they're a lot different. Like there was one day in Nenju, you know, each person come in Gashu, and I thought, everybody bows in Gashu differently. It's amazing. Doing the same thing shows the variation. It's not a problem. It's actually reveals something about who each of us is and about the harmony of difference and unity.

[95:02]

How do people who are different harmonize? You listen to us chant, and there's all sorts of voices, but when we settle in, we literally harmonize, mostly. Maybe somebody who's musically trained would dispute that, but I think we get close. So we do it the same way, almost paradoxically, to discover that we're different. And that's it. Yes. Sorry, I forgot you earlier. Yes. And I was thinking, well, I feel like over time, like at first you were talking about it and I thought, oh, I'm pretty good at that one. But like it hasn't served me so well without a great feeling of integrity or self-confidence.

[96:13]

So like going with the flow has just kind of got me into trouble or self-attracted. So I wonder if this is like... You need a foundation of full humility. Well, it's a great point, Emily. You know, as I was saying, every practice has a shadow. You know? I think, as the Ina was saying, well, all doing the same thing, part of the shadow is compliance. You know? And maybe you're good at compliance and... that looks good, but actually something's missing in terms of authenticity. It isn't an expression of heartfelt vow, it's an expression of fear, obedience.

[97:18]

And then similarly with going with the flow. If going with the flow is lack of conviction, lack of grounding in your own being and just being swayed and moved by everything that comes along, then the authenticity of being is missing there too. So it's like we go with the flow and there's a sense of it's dynamic but we stay in balanced relationship with authentic being. It's not going with this because I'm incapable of not just giving over to that. It's going with this and committing to it in an authentic way. So it has its own empowerment.

[98:24]

that you can flip that turns it from an afflicted situation into a play and is flipping that switch preference? Is it a preference that should be given? Like, should you be taking that preference? Because we talk a lot about how preferences are often conditioned and that we don't need to necessarily take our preferences so strongly. Well, there is a switch, and it's up in the shop, and Chris will show you after lunch. Okay. You have to find it for yourself. Would that be the teaching, Chris? It feels like flipping the switch would be something extra that we're not supposed to bring. We're not supposed to bring. We're not supposed to bring. Whenever we start talking about practice, the very nature of words, it starts to sound dualistic.

[99:47]

And that's what we need to be careful about. We're talking about a non-dual process. But the talking about it sort of implies a certain kind of dualism. Fluid mind is better than rigid mind. We're talking about non-grasping, not being stuck, having the capacity to not grasp and cling to a preset idea, but being available to interact with the moment. That's kind of a dangerous way you came about it because I'd like to say, okay, so this is the formulation.

[100:50]

Here's the right way to do it. But it's more to let the import and the challenge of what's happening now, what's appropriate response. what's happening now, what is it to practice with it? And to let the import of that evoke, stimulate connection, engagement, non-grasping, and a trusting, I would say a trusting of something other than just What did the Eno say about this? And then if the Eno gets upset later, you know, because she's a control freak, well, you know, practice compassion.

[101:54]

And also listen to the Eno, because you probably have something wise to say about it. Forget it, Paul, you already threw me under the bus. I pulled you out before the bus got over you. Okay. Okay. Two more questions. Go ahead. Yes. Discriminating thinking. Yes. Okay. Okay. Thank you. was so manifest when Anne forgot her zagu and affliction, for sure.

[103:04]

And Linda picked up hers and the intimacy of that moment just was it for me. It was such an understanding of what this is about. Yes, exactly. You know, sometimes it's that easy. There's a need? Well, take care of it. A person doesn't have his ego, give him one. So intimate. Yeah. And the intimacy and the appropriateness needed presence and contact and availability and adaptability, you know? And can you go through, do you go through all that in your head? Of course you don't. You just come out and do it. Yeah. some more hands in the audience, and I'm wondering... Yeah, we've got to get some sound in there.

[104:11]

Well, if we do a normal 15-minute break, there will just be service at 11... Sit for two minutes? 15 minutes. It's supposed to be 15 minutes, so it'll be... No, no, we'll figure it out. Watch. I'm going to go with your flow. Thanks. Okay. Okay. We're done. But I would leave you with this thought. That story of the person coming and saying, here's the immensity of my life. Meet it. Each one of us has that statement to ourselves and to others. and I would say, in practice period, to cultivate ourselves. Not to the exclusion of others, but as we cultivate it, very interestingly, as we cultivate it here, that's how the helping hand just goes out before you even thought.

[105:23]

You know? You're passing over your zago and then Oh, I just passed over my Sago. What am I going to use? Oh, nothing. So rather than, you know, think, oh, all those interesting, heavy ideas, that way the immensity of life can pull us down into being, you know. And from that place, we know all this. That's the amazing thing. We know the heart compassion of it, and we know the wisdom of it. And the hand that reaches out, reaches out and sort of says to us, let me show you. It's that easy. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive.

[106:28]

Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click giving.

[106:38]

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