This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. You know, in Zen... in Zen practice, this relationship between form and emptiness in many ways is assumed.

[01:09]

As a context, it creates the basis, the way to approach many of the Zen koans and statements. And so up to now, I've been trying to describe and then offer a way of engaging that teaching. And what I thought we could do this morning is to review sushin. In some ways, one approach is we talk about it, And then we do it. And then we discover, it's almost like there are two separate processes. Part of the challenge for us is to blend them together.

[02:12]

The example that makes a lot of sense to my mind is the earth and the sun. We know the earth rotates around the sun, but We live in a subjective way where the sun goes round the earth. And we not only think of it that way, we have the accompanying feelings and sensibilities and references. In a way, this is how our subjective existence is. it's formulated, it's constructed around how the world appears to us. And we know there is more to it than that. And then how to not have those be in opposition, but how do they interplay in a way

[03:27]

that facilitates awakening. And we could say the sun going around the earth is the subjective formulation. It's the form. And then the earth going around the sun, the sun part of the Milky Way, the Milky Way part of the galaxy, the galaxy part of a cluster of galaxies, that cluster of galaxy part of what we've discovered quite recently is there seems to be some kind of pattern or shape in how all the galaxies in our quarter of the universe are interacting. So our mind can hold that idea quite easily. Okay. But then some part of it is, you know, if the temperature, if our body temperature drops, I don't know, four or five degrees below its optimal, we're distressed and agitated and upset.

[04:44]

And then how to let the vastness of intervening deeply informative. How to let it be part of foundation that says, okay, and yes indeed, in subjective being, if the body's too cold, that's a problem. If the body's too hot, that's a problem. If there's not enough water, if you don't get water for three days, that's a big problem. and all the accompanying issues that arise out of the complexity of being human. Form is form. Being human is being human. And so when I started Shishin, I started with that notion.

[05:49]

I read a poem by William Stafford, which I know is emblazoned in your mind, so I'm not going to read it. But the image that we're willing prisoners within our own subjectivity. Philosophical as it might be, I think it affords us something in terms of reflecting upon who we are. Even just intellectually holding how significant, how relevant, how influential the thoughts and feelings and perspectives and conclusions that arise in the mind are. It's just how it is. It's important to us.

[06:56]

And then how do we make that shift? How do we bridge those two worlds? How do we shift from, you know, in Yogacara, a school of Buddhism that came after, you know, the fundamental teachings, fundamental Mahayana, how that affected the Buddhist notion of psychological being. It became an interbeing rather than just composite parts. It became dynamic. And if you remember, I was saying three modes of consciousness. Being totally caught up in the constructs of the mind. not being totally caught up with the constructs of the mind interacting with experience of the moment and co-creating out of that.

[08:03]

And I think this is the fruit of the interplay of form and emptiness. This is the fruit of holding what you might call the big picture and the subjective enmeshment in the concerns of self. And that's, as Dogen says, the enlightened or enlightened about delusion. So in the Yogacara system, the state of consciousness that just sees it all playing itself out and sees it clearly, and neither grasps it or pushes it away. Parinispana. The mind of the freedom of nirvana.

[09:10]

I thought I would mention what I think I said, and then feel free to interject, question, because it's very helpful. Part of what a helpful process for us is, okay, what are we going to do? Do it. And how was that? Not so much did you like it or did you not like it, but what the heck happened there? Even when our mind gets caught up and engrossed in a particular topic, what's happening? What's going on in that state of being? being engrossed in this topic is the most important thing.

[10:22]

So from the mind to the big picture, the particular becomes intriguing rather than definitive of existence. When we're inside the particular, then we're living according to its dictates. I'll never be happy until, or I have to avoid that because, whatever. Or suppress it, or resist it, or feel aggressive towards it. As we can hold it in the big picture, it's just itself. It's just the mind consciousness of the moment. And in some ways, this is what Dogen in Bhandava, which I was quoting, wholehearted practice of the way, this is what he was saying was the keystone of all the Buddha's awakenings.

[11:36]

This holding the human condition, in its particular, but in the context of being an example of all being, then seeing it, bearing witness to it, is both an illustration of what is, and it's the process of awakening and liberation. Okay then? Phew! That was easy. And then if you remember, I talked about in the development of Buddhism, the development of shunyata.

[12:44]

Not so much that the three aspects were not present in early Buddhism. As far as we can tell, they were. But the emphasis was more on, in early Buddhism, the emphasis of shunyata, on emptiness, is the word we commonly use, was no self and no independent being. And so in a way, that reflects in our sitting. The way in which the mind conjures up reality other than subjective experience, conjures up a solid sense of self other than a dynamic interplay of thoughts and feelings and physical sensations and phenomena arising at the sense gates. And then the challenge for us is not to get lost in that, not to get pulled off

[13:47]

into distraction. Distraction being awareness is cut off. And then this reflects that early emphasis of shunyata. No self, no abiding, independent object. And then as we are not so distracted, we start to come back well, what is happening here? And we start to make contact with interbeing. This later, what later became the primary character of shunjita. It's not emphasizing negation, it's emphasizing the interplay. of the constituent parts, both in what they create and then how the interplay is dynamic.

[14:53]

And then the teaching of yes, to go back to that analogy, yes, the earth goes round the sun, and yes, the sun goes round the earth. And those are complementary, not contradictory. And then Dogen describes this in terms of G.G.U. Zama. And he says, when we start to get in touch in this way, when we start to get in touch with the interbeing of subjective existence, there is both. that isn't simply something we figure out and there's a realization that's more than what we think.

[16:01]

And so this is a key constituent in the process of Zen. There's a process that's more than we can figure out and there's a realization of that goes beyond our thoughts. Trust in faith? The Sanskrit word includes them both. It is handy, isn't it? And then it also adds, well, usually how it's translated, it adds in confidence or trust. Confidence along with the trust. Trust, faith, and confidence.

[17:08]

I think that's one of the arising consequences. And then the other thing Dogen adds in, he says, It can't be forced. You can't force it, and others can't force it upon you. So no matter how wonderful a schedule we create, and how diligently the eno enforces the shingi, the heart of this process is still personal. And hopefully, your way of engaging finds the shingi and the schedule an aid rather than a hindrance.

[18:09]

I sometimes think, we should talk about that in detail. Yes, please. Who said that? She said that. Pretty much every chosen, you know, I have somebody else say, what's this with sleep deprivation? How do you respond? How do I respond? That's interesting to listen to, too. how every time it comes up, the answer's a little bit different. Here's what I said yesterday. That certainly the Shingi and the schedule and the whole organism and organization of the mandala, of the monastery,

[19:21]

is endeavoring to create circumstances and conditions that are conducive to awakening. And then, of course, each one of us is the person we are, and each one of us is challenged to engage that mandala in a way that's personally conducive to awakening. And having it be rigorous is in a way to take you to your action. You know? I remember once someone was describing to me this schedule. They went... I forget who the teacher was, but the schedule was something like this. They got up at 7, they had breakfast at 8, there was a half-hour satsang, and then between ten and twelve of one, you just did whatever you want.

[20:35]

Exactly. And then you come, here it is, well, here's the schedule. You'll do all this, and then you'll have a 10-minute bathroom break before you go to study, and then you'll have another 10-minute break before there's a class. Yeah. To take you to your edge. To challenge you, as I was, if you remember, I was saying in the Sashin, you know, give everything you've got. And that's why it's helpful to preface it with this notion of the human condition, this notion of what it is to wake up, that you give it, that you aren't reluctantly forced to comply with something you'd rather not.

[21:46]

And then, of course, of course there's times you're complying with something you'd rather not. It's a messy business. It's not pristine. But that's what I would say. To take us, each one of us, to take us to the edge where we discover wholehearted effort. And sometimes we open with exuberance and sometimes we don't. Sometimes we feel, should I go back to bed? What was the criterion? If you're tired, go to the zendo. If you're exhausted, you know, am I tired or am I exhausted? It is my resistance of the moment influencing how I'm measuring it.

[22:54]

to that age. And it's messy. At 3.30 in the morning, is your best judgment operative? Yesterday I liked also your comment about the settings that's conducive to dissolving the self and that this played into the schedule as well. Actually, that was Leslie's comment. But that was a wonderful comment. Thank you, Leslie. That somewhere in this process, the self is being undone. Or dissolved, was the word Leslie used. Yeah. Somewhere when we give wholehearted effort, we become the activity. When we have a certain kind of

[23:58]

comfort. It's like we can stay back in what works best for me, as defined by me. Come forward and it asks something of us. And hopefully we give. And that responding to request and that giving is a key element to our practice. Yeah. But I think an important ingredient in that is the form in emptiness, that failure is a relative term.

[25:17]

It's a term that's set up through a criterion that's being applied to that moment. If I don't go to the Zendo, I've failed. That's what I'm saying in that moment. And sometimes we say that from a place of deep sincerity and commitment. And then sometimes that can be a hindrance, right? Yes. Help me bring me closer to my edge or more than dissolving the self if I show up at the Zendo at 1 a.m. or maybe jump in the freezing creek at midnight. Like, why? Like, why? Why 3 a.m.?

[26:18]

3.30. What if we just didn't sleep for a week straight? Would that put us in a delirious place that would help us all the self quicker rather than suffer for 90 days? I'm not closing. Uh-huh. We were thinking maybe you could do it and then let the rest of us know. You know, the term was, take you to your edge, not throw you over your edge. So that you can go too far. Of course you can go too far. I mean, you can be exhausted, you can be stumbling around where there is no awareness. There's just a kind of confusion.

[27:20]

I mean, it's a process of waking up. And one ingredient of waking up is clarity and mental acuity. So, as Dogen says, it's a wondrous art. You can't force it and others can't force it on you. It's very helpful to... Remember that delicacy. And when we remember that delicacy, the notion of koan arises. It's not so much what is right or what is wrong, but can we see as astutely as we can the interplay between the thoughts and judgments and perspectives that are arising. Can we see the mind that says, I'm failing?

[28:25]

Or can we see the mind that says, I'm succeeding? Not to attribute to any, either of them, an absolute, you know, with the interplay, the interbeing. Yes, Mark? any formulation. And that's why the background of shunyata, of the interplay of form and emptiness, is important because before we take up any deliberate involvement.

[29:34]

Because we can say the deliberate involvement is to achieve this goal. And then we've set something up. The deliberate involvement is to dissolve the self. And if you don't dissolve the self, you're doing it wrong. And if you do, you're doing it right. You've fallen back into duality. You've fallen back into a construct. And it's the interplay that helps us see, okay, here's what we're doing. It's a wondrous act and it draws us into experiencing more fully what it is that's happening in the moment. What does it mean to thin or thicken?

[30:45]

There's less self. I think it's a very sensory state for me. It's not something my mind becomes up with. As I go about things, I've noticed that I can sort of feel myself sticking around certain things. Like, oh, I'm going to ask a question now, Leo. That sometimes... And what I would say in relationship to that is there's a way in which language can be helpful. You know, there's a way in which a certain formulation can invite us back into experiencing.

[31:55]

And then, of course, there's a way in which language can make us focus or make us attend to what's being conceptualized. Okay, then thickening is a bad thing and thinning is a good thing. Or thickening and thinning are just words that are proposing experience. You know, experience what's happening and here's a demonic that turns you in that direction. Okay? So if we take care of the schedule and... did all these aesthetic practices, pushed himself to his edge, and then afterwards says, we really don't need to do that.

[32:59]

And then he sat under a tree for a secure. But I'm guessing, who knows what actually happened, but I'm guessing that he got up when he felt like it and walked around and sat back down and got some food. It took him easy. He sat for a secure, but I doubt it was 2,000 days straight without hitting him. And also, more than likely, all the yogic and aesthetic practices made him quite pliable and able to do that. Whereas a lot of us sit down and it's like, kind of impossible because of our condition. He had actually already had some sort of condition, most likely, to make that quite easy. Essentially, it seems like he recommended not pushing our edge all the time because he said it wasn't that useful necessarily. So I wonder about that. I mean, I wonder what he would say if he, you know, just saw the way he'd come up with. With what? With practice, you know, how we model six years of sitting. He went on and spent, after he awakened, he spent about 40 years, as far as we can tell, conjuring up practices for the people who came to practice with him.

[34:05]

Okay, here's how you do awareness. Here's how you follow the brat. Here's some admonitions about how to think about that. Here's a shingi. No, see what you just did? Well, please don't do that. Refrain from that. That doesn't help awakening. He created a formulation. To me, the story of Buddha is enormous sincerity, enormous effort creating what you might call powerful yogic skills, but something in the middle of it was missing. He could sense it But he couldn't make it different. And then something happened. The generous act of a young girl enabled him to drop something.

[35:13]

Now, whether he sat... For another six years, I think many versions of his life say that then he, after a couple of days, went back to his cohorts and told them about the practice. The Pali Canon? Well, you know, push the edge. You know what I was saying about five or ten minutes ago, Walker, was because of our karmic conditioning,

[36:36]

when we have the option, we have the impulse to return to what our karmic conditioning is inclined to create. So this is a method of being drawn beyond that. I would say this. This is my notion of Shakyamuni. He lived in awakening. So in one way, he was living on the edge. He wasn't saying, okay, I'm going to be mindful now, and then I'm going to go back to my room and just be engrossed and clinging to all the karmic stuff. In a way, he lived on the edge. And if we could walk in the front gate and I'll do that, well, then we just do it.

[37:38]

We wouldn't need, you know, in Fukanza Zengi, Dogen Zengi says, but a hearse-breath deviation, a hearse-breath deviation, and sets up all sorts of dualities and difficulties and hindrances and challenges. And I think our processes understand the proposition, engage the practice, and then whatever happens from that, learn from it. And it's that Zen mind that sees the interplay between form and emptiness that helps facilitate that, the learning from. And so the very stuff of each of our individual karmic constructions and expressions is

[38:40]

a teaching. And my understanding is that so intense was Shakyamuni's awakening that all that karmic constructing fell away. It was no longer a hindrance. And so, so-called living on the edge was just I remember practicing in Thailand, and it was very, very severe. And I was filled with all sorts of drama and determination and success and failure and agitation. And the teacher was walking around like he was on vacation, you know? He always, like, totally chilled, you know? I remember Jack Coynfield telling this story about Achan Cha coming to... a Vipassana retreat in the West.

[39:41]

And he started kidding around and saying, did something bad happen? What's going on with all these people? Why do they all look so upset? Did something terrible happen? Yeah, but it's inside our own heads. Terrible things are happening. We make our own problems, and then we work with our own problems, and hopefully in the process, something's realized, you know? So, is there any benefit to, like, pushing beyond the schedule to find your own individual edge? Maybe not like, you know, Francis saying, like, not sleeping for a week, but just kind of testing it out a little bit at a time. Here's the thoughts that are flashing through my mind.

[41:02]

They're like this. And I remember Reb saying this to me. When I was at Green Gongs, I used to sit Yaza every night. And Reb was at Tanto and he came up to me once and he said, you know, sitting outside the formulated scheduled times for sitting is not appropriate in the Zen tradition. However, many of the great teachers in Zen did it. And I thought, okay. And I concluded from that I would do what I wanted, which was to sit late. I did. And I put it that way because was that an expression of self-construct? was that an expression of sincere, dedicated effort?

[42:04]

And this is the flavor of the Zen school. This is Suzuki Roshi's maybe so. The Zen school doesn't try to say, this is the way. And if you don't do it this way, you're not doing it the right way. It's like seeing, this is a process. This is a wondrous art that you can't force. And the keystone, the illumination of the process is direct experiencing. So any one of us can say, well, am I doing this... motivated by some self-construct or am I doing this trying to find an edge that helps? And I would say in general, if we're always approaching it with inquiring mind, and always in a process of discovery and learning and adjusting our thinking, our behaviors, then

[43:28]

Hopefully, even when we wander off here, it'll, you know, bring us back. I think many of us discover in the realm of practice that so-called failure, when we look at it carefully, actually has a wonderful teaching for us. In general terms, we can say, well, if your personality is to kind of hold back and try not to be hurt, maybe coming forward and experimenting. If your personality is more like push everything beyond the limit, maybe holding back would be helpful, instructive. As I was saying in Sushin, that's one of the principles of uprightness. Not leaning into it, not pulling back.

[44:31]

Okay, we've handled sleep deprivation and schedule. You know, having been part of Zen Center for many years, you know, for Leslie and I, you know, it's like, like we remember back to the days when talking about food was the most explosive topic there was. Now we never talk about food. What happened? We still eat. Going through some of the files in the Eno filing cabinet, Cam and I came across this schedule from 1981 or something, where the schedule was 3 a.m. they woke up. 3 a.m. was the wake of the bell. We're getting up too late. And then I had, like, it was handwritten at the bottom that said, like, you know, 9.30 hot drink, 10 o'clock Yaza, 9.30, like 10.30 this. I'm like, oh, my God, they just kept going.

[45:37]

And then they crossed out the last, like, three or four segments, you know, like the 10.30 Yaza or whatever. I'm just like, wow, these people were, like, let's keep that hidden, the 3 a.m. 5 schedule, but it was pretty... Pretty what? That's pretty serious. Yeah? Yeah? And we're not? Well, yeah, I think they are serious. And I feel like also it's just a different generation. I mean, I feel like... The golden days. The golden days. That was the 80s. I mean, it wasn't that long ago. Yeah. And I guess my question is, would the Buddha have awakened had he not been so ascetic to begin with? He says this in the middle way. However, you know... You can never answer that question. There's no answer to that question. Would he have awakened had he not put himself through all those practices and pushed himself, pushed himself with this relentless, single-minded attitude? Yeah. I still don't want to wake up at three. I remember those times.

[46:51]

I was here for that. So was Leslie. Were you all stumbling around in confusion or you had mental acuity? Good one, good one. Did we have mental acuity? We had some. We had some. Maybe so. You know, it's not to say that was the golden age and now we're in the age of decline. You know, it's Either way, you know, to remember there is no perfect recipe to practice.

[47:57]

And for each of us to find within what's presented the involvement that seems most appropriate at that time. announcement of all the allergens that are in everything down here these days? Because I'm guessing it probably wasn't like that in the 80s. What do I think? I have a very prejudiced perspective, which is that in the United States more than any other country, there has been a mass experiment with eating processed foods. And I think this is part of the consequence of it. these sensitivities. But what attitude do I have towards it?

[49:04]

If that's what needs to happen, that's what needs to happen. That's our practice. If this is the support people need to practice, okay, we can do it. about food in order to get to the place where all the allergens are listed everywhere in a very meticulous way. Actually, it was more that our conversations around food were a search for the pure diet, mostly. And what is it? And we ended up with a not-so-pure diet, and thankfully we don't have to have those intense conversations.

[50:10]

Now we can just do zazen. But also I would add, within the nature of Zen mind, you know, this inquiring mind that meets what arises both as an expression of self and then as an expression of interbeing. That mind will, in the language of Zen, that each particularity, each challenge is a koan. A koan is something that invites our inquiring mind into engagement, that facilitates awakening. Rather than going into our karmic mind that creates a right and a wrong, a success and a failure and a conclusion and a judgment,

[51:21]

that should be forced on ourselves and forced on others. The so-called problem becomes a catalyst for liberation and awakening. And then the challenge for us is how do we cultivate and engage that way of being? And all this is implicit in Jiji Yuzamai. That this self, filled with its persuasions, its fixed ideas, its emotional dispositions, how can bearing witness to it in a thoroughgoing way, how can that illustrate the path of liberation? How can we relate to it in a way that has some ease?

[52:35]

The term that's used is play. In as some fluidity, some ease. Oh, look at this. disarising. Now, to have that fluidity, to have that ease, most of us, as with the story of Shakyamuni, we need to struggle with our dis-ease. We need to struggle with our fixed ideas, our resistances, our yearnings. Usually that ease is hard one. Does it need to be that way? Of course not. Do you need to keep giving yourself a hard time until you've worn yourself down to exhaustion and stop? No, of course you don't. But is it likely that sometimes that's exactly how you're going to do it?

[53:45]

Yeah. I don't know. And even that, you know, even that we can have some space around. Yeah. And it's one thing you learn as a teacher. It's like, it's okay, you're struggling. It's okay, you're having a hard time. Of course, it's not okay in a way because you're struggling and you're having a hard time. But you're not doing something terribly wrong. It's not a signal that you're a terrible Zen student and you're not sincere and whatever. No, not at all. In a strange way, it's your sincerity that's got you into this trouble. So that form elevation of ease.

[54:47]

And then in the Shashin I mentioned a... I mentioned this part from Anapanasati, where it talks about gladdening the heart, where the yogic process of connecting to the breath, of letting the breath be an agent of releasing the contraction. The mind conceptualizes the emotions part of the response to that conceptualization, that's embodied and held in the form of contraction. And then when we sit, you know, this continual invitation for something to ease. And then as that eases,

[55:50]

As the mind starts to ease, as the body starts to ease, as the emotions start to ease, that spaciousness, and then the capacity to both invite it and, as Dogen says, to enjoy, to enjoy that ease. And it's marvelous, because even in seven days, most of us, day three, four, five, we got some of that going. And to let it sink in. To let it sink in and let the body, in a way, remember. that this condition is possible.

[56:53]

And so we have that sense of space that I was mentioning a few moments ago, the product of form and emptiness holding the experience of the moment. Then, if you think about the formulation I offered, you know, directed attention, let the body breathe. Let the breath breathe the body. Inviting this ease. And what do you discover? Well, you discover the reluctance to do that. You discover, you know, the almost like the embedded tensions. But that directed attention. And then the receptive attention.

[58:03]

Whatever arises in the language of Zen is the koan of the moment. Whatever arises is the manifestation of conditioned being that's there to be aware of. doesn't need to be fixed. And this is part of the wondrous method. Wondrous in that it goes beyond our notions of right and wrong. And so, given how ingrained the notions of right and wrong are, and success and failure, and what I want and what I don't want, and how multifaceted they are, this constant re-examine, rediscovery, realization. Without the directed attention, something isn't manifest.

[59:10]

The engagement helps create, And the creation is experienced and through the experiencing realization. Directed attention, receptive attention. And how to keep returning to that process. And so I was offering directed attention, receptive attention, working with the breath this way. Now, I know in the Zen world, there are certain teachers would say, that's not Dogen's way. He never said that explicitly. Okay. I did. Now, if the mind is settled and just present for what's arising, maybe that's

[60:17]

just busyness getting in the way. But I would say to you, if you engage the breath in allowing the breath to breathe the body, it will facilitate an engagement that corresponds, that aligns with the state of mind and emotions at the time. In and of itself, without the mind having to judge and calculate, the nature of the effort will start to soften into abiding rather than doing. The directed attention becomes more of abiding attention rather than...

[61:18]

directed. That's the nature of our consciousness. And I would also say on the other hand, and I will at some point elaborate on that too, the more scattered the mind, the more it's caught up in its own thinking, the more helpful it is to have directed attention. It's kind of a little bit foolish to think, oh, my mind's all over the place. I'll just sit in, you know... A cafe and drink more coffee. For instance. Yeah. Okay. Yes. So does breathing in the breath through the body facilitate... of receptive attention and directed attention, or is it really just focused on the abiding part of the equation?

[62:20]

The way I was presenting it was like this. It's an expression of directed attention. But hopefully, coming from the notion, as I was saying in this issue, the shadow of directed attention is control. This needs to be controlled to produce the right outcome. So I'll get busy directing attention because I'm a sincere Zen student. So by saying it that way, letting the breath, the directed attention has built into it a kind of releasing. And releasing is kind of like the antidote to control. So it starts as directed attention and as the mind settles, the directing and the receiving attention

[63:38]

As the mind settles, they merge into abiding. And I would say to you that it's helpful. Once we've established, and it takes the experiential learning, once we've established the non-duality, that this isn't based on some fixed ideas about what should and should happen, then I think we can use more purposeful and detailed directed attention. You know, we can work with the breath more. Go ahead. So I was just curious, what about working with mentality? I mean, it seems like you're mostly focusing on working with the body, the breath being in the body, but how about inquiring about thoughts that arise or having a direct experience of mentality.

[64:42]

I feel like that's just really interesting to me. But that's where I started. I started with these cosmic ideas. Oh, and then there's our sun and our Milky Way and then our galaxy is part of ideas, concepts. And then that draws us, that sets the stage for practice. And then we go beyond ideas into the body, into the breath, into direct experiencing, into an experience of this interplay between form and emptiness. And then from that place, we open up again. Physicality? From that place, we open up again. And then the thoughts, the feelings, the constructs become cohen.

[65:51]

They become the arising creation that can teach the nature of what is. Originally, We're crafting all that furiously, but we don't know we're doing it. I'm just describing reality. It's nothing to do with me. It's what's real. When we get more in touch, we see, I am co-creating a version of reality. That's a very different concept. Intellectually, it's not that big a deal. It's something of a deal. But experientially, most of us need, we need to engage the experiential. Most of us, we need to engage the top ten of ways in which we get ourselves into trouble and grasp and yearn

[67:04]

resent and all that. And at least somewhat experientially and somewhat with intellectual conviction accept, oh yeah, those are my patterns. And then that facilitates a kind of healing. And in that facilitation, it's like... Karagiri Roshi says, in that facilitation, we forgive the whole universe. Okay, universe, you're forgiven. We can forgive everybody. Okay, parents, you're forgiven. You were terrible. But, you know, you weren't so terrible, really. You were just yourselves. The product of what your parents, how your parents brought you up...

[68:05]

and how their parents brought them up. The need to enact the drama of being alive is lessened, and now we have more capacity to be curious. Annoyance, look at that. several times spoken to me directly in response to Maddaza and struggles is, you know, giving yourself a wide, giving your mind, I guess, specifically a wide posture or a wide field. And I think what that was always pointing to was, you know, don't try to control your mind.

[69:13]

You know, so then how is that or is it different from sort of trying to actively engage some kind of directive attention, working with your breath, or trying to ground in the body? I don't know who gave you that wonderful admonition, but it may have been that in that moment, they thought, oh, when Lauren's sort of going towards control, I'll talk about non-control. I'll try to offer... A balancing, you know? And so they... Achancha says, I only have two instructions. If the person's going left, I say go right. If the person's going right, I say go left. If they're getting too into control, I say loosen up. If they're getting too space-tight, I say tighten up. Yeah. It's...

[70:16]

And in formulating it the way I did, as I was saying before, Lauren, it's like, so letting the breath breathe the body has intrinsic within it a kind of invite to a releasing. Of course, we can turn it into an issue of control if that's our tendency, but in that way. And then the other thing I was saying was when we have an appreciation of the process, then we can see both factors have a place. If you sit down and your mind's all over the place, I would say it may be appropriate to be quite directed about how you're paying attention. If you sit down and you're in a very calm and settled place and your body's energized and there is minds at ease and there's an abiding presence, well, if it isn't broke, don't fix it.

[71:33]

Just sit. or how much there is in actually doing something, like breathing or... It's passive, it's just being attentive. Well, being attentive... It's active in as much as the mind is unsettled. The more settled the mind, the more allowing. abiding. If you think about the ox-herding pictures, it goes the whole way from furiously wrestling to the ox is in the meadow and the caretaker is just sitting there watching.

[72:43]

It's really describing the same process. The process of zazen, or the process of directing attention, the intention is that it becomes physical activity that doesn't require... You know, with experiential learning, you know, like if you think about learning how to drive a car or how to type, when you're learning, the mind initiates.

[73:46]

As the body starts to learn the mind is set aside and the body is engaging. Similarly in Zazen. And the moment is only so short when the mind is settled and attentive. When the mind is not so settled and attentive, it's creating a string of associated, you know, experience. So when the moments, you know, as it says in Abhidhamma, a sixth of a second, that mind is very present and attentive and directed attention superfluous. We're talking about when the mind is creating more constructs and concepts, then the directed attention is more skillful. Did you talk about making a cheese sandwich?

[75:04]

I did. Oh. When do I think I want to make a cheese sandwich? When do I think I want to make a cheese sandwich? Well, I was in reflecting on what I had said about Dogen's teachings, the notion occurred to me that I was taking this exquisite, poetic, profined teaching and sort of turned it into something mundane, like a cheese sandwich. When did I think about it? When I was sitting in the abbot's cabin looking at my notes and thinking, oh yeah, that and that. hand in hand, and then I thought, no, this is all like a cheese sandwich. That's when I thought about it. And then it intrigued me so much, I thought I'd repeat it in the talk. I haven't thought about it much since, though.

[76:10]

of thoughts going on, and I'm sitting there watching thoughts, and I see them come up, and I let them go on their merry way, and I try not to pay too much attention to them. Now, of course, if this was Ren's eye, I could yell at you, what is this eye, right? But it's Soto, so we'll just chat. settled mind and directed attention, I'm watching these thoughts and not investing in them. I don't feel like I'm getting choked by them, but mind is very active. Is it settled mind that's allowing me to watch them, or is it settled mind if there weren't no thoughts coming up? Once we start to create a duality, you know, I'm watching them, and then we conjure up propositions, questions in relationship to the duality.

[77:31]

And this is what's happening. In its happening, how much capacity is there to contact it and experience it? the more active it is and the more there's investment in that activity that influences consciousness. The less consciousness is caught up in these creations, the more the consciousness has clarity to see through them. It's a little trickier because the rapidity of the thoughts is indicative of the unsettledness of the mind.

[78:48]

I mean, as the mind settles, there's less thoughts. As there's less thoughts, the mind settles. And part of the wondrous art is how is that facilitated? It can't be forced. It can be facilitated. And so refining our effort, you know, And that's why I say, well, in letting the breath breathe the body, okay, it's a physiological event, but it's instructive for the mind. It helps the mind appreciate something about letting the moment happen without trying to force it and without trying to stop it. And as we start to relate, to the mental activity in that way, it facilitates a settling.

[80:03]

If you start with the notion, I'm gonna settle and this is how I'm gonna make it happen, the duality of that is its own disturbance. But what we're talking about... So what I was saying was, talk about it, sit your sheen and do it, and then afterwards say, what was that? In a way, you could say, well, isn't this a kind of... Is it really helpful to conceptualize the... experience of Sushi? And I would say yes, in a way it is.

[81:06]

Because it can be a guidance. It can help that mind that just says, oh, this is how my human condition manifests itself. Upon reflection I see there was this kind of pattern or there were these kind of issues. and be informed by that in terms of, okay, acceptance, some conceptualized skillfulness and how to relate to them. But then they feed back into experience. I mean, I would say our practice is always... What's happening? How's it being practiced with? And what happens when it's practiced with like that?

[82:11]

And then back to what's happening. That's the nature of all our practice. And when we can engage in that way, it helps loosen up the ingrained agendas of the Self. It's, what do I want? What do I not want? And all sorts of variations on that, right? That flood the mind and emotions. And in a way, you know, this, like each morning at the start of service, you know, we're attempting to recalibrate. from karmic agenda to the agenda of awakening. And this is the delicate process.

[83:20]

You can't force it, and no one can force it on you. But you can facilitate it. Yes, Miles. I was just scratching my head. Koshi had a question. Sorry, Koshin. No, I actually... I'm thinking of questions. No, it's okay, it's okay. I actually... I sort of knew... I just got a little off target. Sorry, Koshin. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In the phrase, body and mind will drop away, when or how does then the body drop away? Well, I am going to stop. But if you think about it, Shashin, then I started talking about energy. Because you could say we start off with a solid reality.

[84:22]

Then we step back and we engage a subjective existence that creates notions of a solid reality, then we step back once more and we embody the world of creation. And as we start to embody it, we start to experience or notice the energy of it. And the body, you know, I mean, a wonderful thing to do and quite simple when your imagination's working well, is just imagine you don't know what it is to have a body and just attend to all the arising phenomena that contribute to physical reality.

[85:29]

And then the body becomes an array, a sensorium of phenomena. And what moves through that sensorium is energy. And then that energy is facilitated by how what arises is engaged. And then I was saying, you know, Joe Ricci and his brother, Wu-wei. Directed energy, flowing energy. Directed attention, receptive attention. The body is a thing because we conceptualize. when that conceptualization of creating thingness slows down, ceases that flow.

[86:39]

And then that flow has as a constituent part an energy to it. And the less constructing there is, the more palpable, literally, the energy flow. Okay, any last thoughts? Wu Wei. Wu Wei. It's a common term used in Chinese for flowing energy. They can be sisters. Josephine, Ricci, and... Lu Wei. Lu Wei? Okay.

[87:40]

Okay, the Dharma's being rewritten. Of course, that was Japanese and Chinese, so... Oh, and then one last concept, which I tucked in there, was reckless and shameless. You're going to end that? You should have started there. Should have started there? Well, certainly reckless. Are they brothers and sisters? Are they brothers and sisters? Say we need to sit? The tribe's getting restless. Yeah, I think they're retried. Recklessness and shamelessness. And it's interesting because if we start off reckless and shameless, you know, the first pure precept, don't harm.

[88:49]

If we start off reckless and shameless, the self rampages like Attila the Hun. No harm to Attila the Hun. not trying to diminish his goodness, rampages, but from a more settled place. That subtle version of not believing or not trusting our own innate wisdom and compassion and the need in our sincere effort to limit it. In that settledness to let something release. Of course you're a karmic being, and of course your mind and your consciousness conjure up thoughts and emotions and sensations, physical sensations.

[90:00]

But in that settled place, when that's allowed to flow uninhibited, it reveals the path. When the breath's allowed to breathe the body, the wisdom of the body is revealed. When the breath's allowed to breathe the body, something about letting life flow, letting this being that's persistently called me, letting it flow. And this is another attribute of gladdening the heart. So, ease, spaciousness, healing, and

[91:02]

full permission to be. You know, they adorn, you know, as Dogen says, they adorn being. They adorn the process of awakening. Do I do okay with that? Think we can go sit now? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit SSCC.org and click giving.

[91:50]

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