This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfcc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good morning, everyone here, and morning to everyone online. Ooh, packed house. Good to see everyone. It's a beautiful day. in terms of the sun coming out today for us. We are finishing up what is called a sesheen, you know, seven days of sitting and having Dharma talks. And now we share our last one with you. Dharma talk today, the sesheen, ends later this afternoon. We've been stewing and cooking and asking questions. being still and being silent.

[01:02]

I wanted to start out this morning with a story. And as soon as I said that, I thought of my father, who only told stories. He couldn't read. He was illiterate. And he was born in 1898. He was 60 when I was born. And it means that I have an older sister, so it means he was like 57 when he got started with his second family. And then my younger sister, three years younger than me, so having children in his 60s must have been amazing. That's all I can say. Now I have one word. Amazing. And my mother was in her 40s, so I always thought I had a whole lot of time. And then I took too long, so I didn't have any. But I loved to hear his stories, which is his way of sharing life.

[02:08]

And it turned out to be my way, so I feel that the seed of storytelling was definitely planted in me. And even as much as I love to read, I really don't like just chit-chatting, but I love storytelling, so... I want to tell you this story that happened that will lead into what I'd like to share today. And I hope that whatever I share today will be helpful to you and to your life in understanding a little bit of what we're doing here in Zen Center on the Zen Path. So the story is, I was invited to a dinner where there were a lot of different people from different traditions. And at the last minute, they decided to invite me and to kind of speak from my Buddhist perspective on healing and transformation. Most of the people have been in this community for many, many years.

[03:12]

And so they didn't really know me. I was new. So I came into the room, a full room. It was full like this. After that meeting, they were going to have what was called a plant medicine ceremony, of which I was invited, but I knew I couldn't drive myself there and drive myself out, and it would have been too much for me to do something like plant medicine at that time. Anyway, I sat at the dinner table with all the people, which I thought was very nice, introductory, and I'd be cold to break bread, you know, in the beginning. I sat across from several people and began to eat this beautiful meal that was placed in front of us. And so right before I took my first bite at leaning into it, and this person said, you know, Buddhism, it's not good for anything. You know? I was like, wow, I didn't even get introduced yet.

[04:15]

And I'm already cooked. This is over. I was like, oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay, and I'm supposed to be talking later on. What? That's not going to go well? So, you know, I went, mm-hmm. I got one bite in. So let me get one bite in, please. And then I could tell this wasn't over. You know, so I took a few more bites, and he says, you know, I'm saying Buddhism is no good. It's not good for anything. It's just, it's not good. You know, and I practiced it, and it wasn't good for anything. And I'm like, still trying to see where this was going to go without me in it. See if I keep a boundary there. But finally I put my fork down, you know, and I said,

[05:19]

I agree. And he said, what? I said, I agree. It's not good for anything. You know, he's like, okay, this is not the kind of conversation I thought I was stimulating here, you know. And I said, yeah, it's really not. And I don't know your reasons, you know, other than you said you practiced it, and I don't know what it means to you for it not being that. I said, but. Buddhism, no, it's not a tool. It's not a tool like a hammer. You can take it and mold things with it in your night. Put a nail here, put a nail there. Okay, pluck it out and do something else. So it's not a tool. Nope. It's not a method. It's not a module, a curriculum, a course. a step-by-step to a greater and happy life.

[06:25]

It's not that thing that might heal your trauma, rebalance your nervous system, solve all your problems. What if I said Buddhism has no answers? End of don't. Now, don't worry. It took me a while to figure that out. Yeah, you cannot use the Buddhist teachings to become someone other than who you are right now. although it can be sold that way. I've heard it transmitted in some various languages in different places. And when I came into the practice and stepped on the doors of the San Francisco Zen Center in San Francisco, I went in there because it was sort of like a penance for me.

[07:41]

I said, I need to go somewhere where I'm not going to cause any suffering to anyone. And I'm going to learn how to be a better person. because I share in causing a lot of suffering, not only to myself, but to people. And I was beginning to think I needed to be sequestered, you know, so that no one else would, you know, be harmed by anything that I say or do. And in fact, I didn't trust myself anymore. And so when I went into the Zen Center, I was hoping just a little bit, I'd get fixed just a little bit, You know, not a whole lot because I already had practiced Buddhism and noticed that nothing was being fixed of my habits and things that I did in the world, things that I said, things that I didn't understand why people were having trouble with. I don't know why you have trouble with me telling me the truth at the wrong time, but, you know, that's who I am.

[08:44]

Just didn't make people happy. And then feeling so much remorse. How many people felt so much remorse sometimes for some of the mistakes that you've made in your life? Yeah. We chant this chant of repentance, all like ancient twisted karma from the beginningless greed, hate, and delusion. We're chanting that. We're invoking it. But it's not only ours, you know, personally. So even what I have done, you have done in your life, The things that you have done is nothing new. Every human being that's come through here has done that, has done something like it. It was already here when you came. You just joined in that path on it. It was already, oh, okay, sure. So I began to practice Zen, and then I heard the same thing.

[09:49]

Zen is good for nothing. I was like, oh, yeah. You know, this is not going to work. It's just too much work for it to be nothing. And I packed all these clothes. I'm going to be here for a long time. And, you know, I don't know if this is helpful. And they kept talking about that in this practice intensive. And then I did this sashim. And after that, which is long sitting hours every day, I began to melt. And become a blob, I could say. A little less than what I thought I was going to be. I thought I was going to be shored up, but I can't worry. Melting further and further away from being this human, I thought that I was. So, you know, I kept that in mind. Okay, Zen is good for nothing. That's what they said.

[10:50]

And after the Sashin, I walked with that saying for a long time. I didn't understand it, you know. And I thought they were saying something about Zen. And they were, but not in that specific sense of the teachings. They were saying how one would engage Zen, our Buddhist teachings. They were telling us, and from Buddhist perspective, that to use these teachings in a way to improve oneself or to appear as something other than who you are, you know. So I began to see more of that as I practiced and started developing a language for it. So I didn't want to act Buddhistic, and I didn't want to speak Buddhese. So... But I tend to.

[11:52]

Anyway, and so I really wanted it to be something that was real, that would come up out of my life. So in order for things to come up out of one's life, how does that happen? If you're going into a path that you get nothing. You know, how do you even walk on something that may not even be a path? There's no here's the beginning and here's the end. So even when we are chanting about our repentance, all my ancient twisted karma from beginningless greed, hate, and delusion, it says beginningless. So that's beyond us. Even though we say those words because it's still within us over the centuries, over the generations, one by one, bringing forth. human by human, day by day, year by year, generation by generation, this constant human condition continuing and continuing through us.

[13:00]

And so I gave up on trying to become someone else, getting away from my desire to cut off all the things I did wrong. And actually began to be okay with what would happen if I went to my grave even still knowing that I had done all the things I had done. What would that mean? You know, for my life. Even not only to others, but to myself. You know, what would that mean? And I already had been taught, you know, that might not be a good thing. You might end up in some realm you're not supposed to be or you want to be after you die. But I kind of let that go too and begin to really understand that these teachings were going to take up my entire life. And so did I really want to hang out for that?

[14:04]

Okay, they're not going to do anything for you, but stay here for the rest of your life, you know, and kind of do this sitting still. chanting, bowing, offering incense. So I continued to do that and realized, in fact, you can't really use it in the way that we like to use things in our lives. You can't go get it, read about it, then go out and use it, teach it, proselytize it. Oh, yeah, you need to be loving and kind, more loving and kind. Someone said that to me before, and I said, oh, you know. You need to be more loving and kind, that kind of like. I wonder what that means. Is she trying to tell me something? You know, because I kind of needed to hear where that came from, you know, other than the end result. And so just the sound of that, you know, so just letting you know how that sounds and it can come into you out of context, right? Out of the practice, without it understanding it.

[15:06]

And then what was loving and what wasn't? And what was kind and what wasn't? And how do you decide that? How do you decide what's compassion and what isn't? What is any of the teachings? And then so I really could hear how it was good for nothing because the meaning of loving and kindness and the context in which it is in changes day by day, person to person, moment to moment. And my idea of it and someone else's idea of it could be completely different. And so we can't really go around pointing out who is and who isn't. Years later, this person apologized. And I said, I still might not be loving and kind, though, but that's something that they saw and they felt to them. So it was something to look at. So if it's not good for anything and we're sitting and we're taking time out in our lives, I do have a suggestion.

[16:09]

And that is to consider the path as a way of living, as your life, as a way of living, as opposed to as something to come in and manage and fix all your suffering, your mistakes, and all the things that are happening. But to have all the things happening, feel all the emotions that come to us around what we do and how we do it, how we interact and what happens to feel that. But then at the same time, to continue to live one's life, to live life. That is important to live this life. Not only just looking at the really tight, you know, I'm going to go to Buddhism and I'm going to look at that. Under the microscope, my life. But if you live your life fully and totally, you're going to see everything. Maybe you have seen everything and you zoomed in on one thing. because everything is a lot.

[17:11]

It can't be a lot. But these teachings are a path in that sense of you walk it. But it's not a laid out path like the path we know. Like beginning, end. When you're done, you get a brown robe. You think that means dormant transmission? I know some people, the color scheme here means, you know. doesn't have a meaning. But I think sometimes we stop living, you know, because we're afraid of what we might do or afraid of what might come to us. And so that's why I'm emphasizing the importance of living as well as looking at and engaging ourselves as human beings and engaging our suffering in this world, especially today. So I'm wondering, can we live life?

[18:13]

Can we live life? And have it include everything. Have it include all that has come, all that will come, all that's now, all that's in this moment. Are we looking for answers? There's no one anything that has an answer. No one has the answer to ending oppression. I mean, that would have been an appeal long ago. But I do have a suggestion. And I'm wondering, can we live life in a way so that we begin to see and that we can begin to take serious what is illuminated in us as human beings? Like, really take it serious. But not so serious you're not living. You know, it becomes so hard, you forgot there was a beach, you know, something.

[19:17]

You never go. You never go to the park, you know, to just relieve yourself. So it's important to me, for my life, is to continue to be engaged with the things that come up for me and how they come, how quickly, how slowly, and not to... measure it or judge any of it, even though if I do, that too is okay. That's part of it. That's part of the human condition. To judge it, to feel self-conscious of it, you know, even to do something and feel like, oh, that's not, that wasn't good. And then you live with that for forever. If you're real tight with it, you might live with it for years. Oh, I remember when I did that thing and it was... I messed up and it was really bad. And it's still in your mind. It was so small. No one saw you do it. But it's still in your mind. And you think a hundred people saw it.

[20:18]

You know, you might tell the story and they say, no, I didn't see anything. At all. I don't even know what you're talking about. Have you apologized to somebody and they say, I don't know what you're talking about. You know, and so... We do sit with ourselves. I think we are really good at sending ourselves, like I did, to send myself to Zen Center to become better, to stop hurting, to stop harming. I needed to sequester myself from people. Like when I got there, there weren't going to be any people. And there were plenty of people. And it was very interesting. to look at suffering in a way where we all were kind of looking toward Buddha's answer and Buddha's, you know, what's going to happen here and what we're going to do, if that's going to change anything for ourselves and each other. I always tell people the practice itself, you know, and I do invite people, like, who wants, you know, to come with me?

[21:29]

You know, who wants to come with me? and walk, you know, a million miles, a thousand miles. Nowhere. Kind of doing nothing. And then taking and not really knowing which way to go. You know, how do you travel without knowing which way to go? It's possible. It is possible. My father, who I said was born in 1898, completely illiterate, decided to drive us to Texas and Louisiana to see our cousins. They're looking for that tree, that crossroad, that house. This is how they got there, right? You know, and I'm like... I'm knowing this in the backseat, even though I'm only like five or six or something. I'm going like, oh, boy, you know, this is time.

[22:32]

We're going to die. Oh, no. Plus, you're just like, you know, black family driving in the South was pretty dangerous on its own. But you have to make sure you stop that. the particular homes that they say stop at and turn at particular corners they say turn at. So it really didn't matter what street. You really needed to know those corners when you got there. Because it didn't make a difference if they told us before we went that you turn at that tree, right? Because we wouldn't know what tree they were talking about unless we got out on the road. That was the only way. And then stop at this bar, you know. And that was really exciting to me, to stop at the bar, because I had never been to one. I'm a kid, and I've heard about it. And that was really interesting to see people hanging out in the bar. I was like, whoa. And they're like, this is your cousin, this is your cousin, this is your cousin. I said, oh, my God, I have a lot of cousins.

[23:34]

But in the South, everybody's a cousin, auntie, uncle, everybody's family. So that was pretty great. shuffled the kids off to the back room, and all we could hear was laughter. But then we went on and we traveled that way, and my mother could read a bit, and actually a lot, but she didn't understand the road, you know, like road maps, which way you're going, north, south, east. So it still was almost kind of the same. She couldn't help, and I remember sort of at the end of the trip... My mother's screaming. I was asleep, and she screamed, stop, and we were right at a cliff. We would pass all the signs, okay, because can't read them, you know. So who wants to go on a journey of studying the Buddhist teaching, not knowing at all what anything means? You can't see it until you get there until you get to the cliff. I don't know what your cliff is, you know, but you're going to get to one.

[24:39]

And you get to the cliff and you don't know, is it flat or are you going to go down? Most times, I went down. And studying Buddhist teaching was very much a learning about walking without knowing, walking without being anybody, and going nowhere, as I always talk about. And to embrace that as life. That's what life is, and that's where I feel the teachings pointed to me. So in that way, it wasn't good for anything. It couldn't navigate me at the moment all the time. So when you get here, you do this. That's not what the teachings will help you do. You have to walk in this total, total unknowing and then allowing all of that to illuminate to you your life and others' life and human life, sentient beings, all sentient beings. That's it. In that darkness, it will shape that light, the illumination that you're seeking, the illumination you think you don't have.

[25:50]

So now let me tell you a little bit about why it's very good to be in the discovery, as well as not necessarily preventing oneself from falling off. But also, can you believe that everyone, including yourself, are already awakened to what Buddha has taught and is teaching through other teachers. Can you trust that, that you're already awakened to that? Now, how did my cousins know to tell my father This tree could have been, maybe got there and there were three trees. I don't know, which tree is it? It had to be one that was particularly by a corner, right? Hopefully, if that's your turning there. But we all fully possess the wisdom and the virtues of the awakened ones.

[26:54]

We all do. And when the awakened ones wakened, ancestors, Buddha, that was passed to us. It's in our DNA. You might not believe it. Hard to believe. Well, see, they're saying amen. That's right there. I don't know what to say about that. And so I count on that. I count on the awakening of ancestors long ago, including Buddha. And that within us, I've counted on it since I was a child. And mainly probably because my parents had to discover so much about everything that I have always counted on this knowing that was already within us. You know, this way of being that we talk about Buddha having had that it is with all of us. So are you not a Buddha?

[27:55]

I don't mean you have to become one. You're already. A Buddha means a wicked one. Have you not sensed yourself to be that way and then you let it go because you get to Buddhism, Zen center and desire? Well, let me see. I don't think I know much. I don't think I know how to do anything. And then maybe that's good too. Are we not the continuation of our ancestors, the awakened ones, the awakened ones I am calling in for us today at this time in this world? Can we work on the suffering and continue to transmit the awakening that is already within us? Can we do that at the same time?

[29:03]

We know we see it in each other. We might not acknowledge it. This is acknowledging what we, that is acknowledging. Can you trust that everything has been already written on your bones? Everything. inside you. You're not the beginning of the path. We just got here and there was nobody else and it's just us that just got started doing Buddhism. And so we know that historically, we know that in our minds, but for some reason it's hard for us to believe that within our own selves. And so I'm calling that in today, I'm invoking that today, especially in this time, to Not to live the path and live the path also with an awakening that you already have. And then some people will say, I had a student come up to me someplace.

[30:15]

I was teaching a course that said, what your bones know. on the Eightfold Path. I think the Eightfold Path, we got that. We had it already. All of this is reminders. It's just to remind you, you already had it. So a student walks up, she said, I just, she's in tears. I really don't think. It's in my bones. I just don't feel that. And so... We can have that feeling and still move through life as if it's in your bones until it becomes a realization for you. Something shows itself to you in the stillness, in the silence. So that whatever we're going to do in the world today is not from something old, it's from something that is coming through us as awakened ones.

[31:19]

And then we might go around and say, I don't think That person's awakened. You know, I don't know. I've heard that too. Someone said to another student somewhere, and when I was practicing in another tradition, that person doesn't seem like they're practicing Buddhism at all. I can't believe they're practicing Buddhism and they did that. And I was going, yeah. Yeah. I can't believe it either. I joined right in that one. That was fun for a while. And then the teacher said, yeah, just think if that person wasn't practicing at all. And I said, okay, case closed. Case closed about who is it and how much. It's over. I never did that again.

[32:20]

Because it's true. It's very true. And I began to feel, you know, grateful for that person we were talking about. Grateful that they practiced. It was just like that. From an awakened place. Instant. That is suffering the person's behavior. Or whatever. what's happening that causes us to say the things, say the things we say. I wanted to read to you something in this book, and then I want to hear from you a little bit. Silence sometimes can be frightening, especially you don't know if it's a horrible silence or a silence in which you can Discover a silence that can illuminate this awakening I'm talking about.

[33:25]

And a silence that can help you to live the importance of living, not just the importance of let me fix myself. I'm going to go to Zen Center and get fixed. Or somewhere. It doesn't have to be Zen Center. It could be anything. I just keep naming that. And so... I just wanted to read this poem in the deepest piece of one of my books. Oops. Okay. That wasn't a good plan. Silence leads to the interior where moss grows in layers. Bamboo sinks itself into you. In your innermost earth, the deep speaks. It does not think. It calls. Go unafraid into the dark, into life, without a doubt that the heart is open.

[34:33]

Silence leads to the interior, where moss grows in layers. Bamboo sinks itself into you, and your innermost earth The deep speaks. It does not think. It calls. Go unafraid into the dark, into light, without doubt that the heart is open. Is your heart open? I'll hear from you questions, comments. Thank you. Thank you. Good morning. I'm curious about the end of your story.

[35:36]

The person that you gave that teaching to, did that satiate his desire, his question? You mean the story? When you said that Buddhism was, when you agreed with him and then you told him, I was curious how he, the impact of your... So the person who we were saying didn't, you know, wasn't practicing Buddhism and we were picking on them? No, no, no. In the very beginning of your story, the person that before you took a bite of the food. Oh, wait, that story, the first story. Oh, what story are you talking about? Yeah. I think he just started to eat. I think he was stunned that I agreed with him, first of all. It was the end of the story because I wasn't going down the track that they were trying to challenge me with around Buddhism. And that person was following another tradition. And I imagine they had followed Buddhism in some way to have, you know, a particular opinion about it.

[36:40]

And so they continued to eat. And then, of course, I got a chance to continue to talk because I was the speaker for the night. And so they got to hear more from me. And I actually... At the end of that dinner, they did come and talk to me a little bit, just more wanting to know how I live my life. You know, what was the next thing? How did you get there to that place? And I talked about inheritance, you know, in the talk. And I asked the whole room, who's waiting for their inheritance? You know, and what kind of inheritance? And it was interesting. People were raising their hands, you know. waiting for, you know, parents to move on. And it was true. You know, we're waiting for things, and we already have inherited something, and I did put that in the talk.

[37:41]

And I think that made the person come up and talk to me about there is an inheritance that we already have, and perhaps they were, you know, feeling that they didn't have anything, and they had to go out and get it, you know. And that's what they were feeling. And I think they were appreciative of me pointing that to them, that it didn't really land on Buddhism at all. You could say any tradition doesn't have an answer, like one answer, and then we do it. Although it sounds like they do. You know, people, I really did believe, you know, when I was a Christian, some of the things that were said. I still believe a lot of Christian thinkings, Jesus' thinking, Christ's thinking. but not the kind that's drawn into another story, which something may happen to you later. You know, so I'm not drawn into that. But we kind of was hanging out together, you know, and we didn't have to.

[38:43]

I think just by me agreeing and then being shocked was kind of the end of the conversation in that moment at the dinner table before I took my second bite. It was over. Thank you for your talk. I'm a little disappointed, though, because I think Buddha has... Amazing tools to be in life, especially when it's the shit hits the fan. I use it all the time. What are Buddhist tools named? Well, I do metta chanting when I'm upset. And I do, I quiet my mind and I come inward and calm down and just sit and come home.

[39:53]

And it's a great tool to work through stuff. And how often do you do it? Every day. It's a life you're doing. You're living a way of life. Yeah. It's not a tool. Yeah. You think it's more than a tool. Make it you. Make it your life. You. Yeah. That's what I'm just trying to shift. Yeah. Because if we keep it in the attitude of tool, then it's only something you use. It's not something that you are. Yeah. Because don't you become who you are? you know, while you're doing so, it pushes it into another boundary. I can see that it touch you as it's touching me, you saying it, you know, and everyone around here. So I think it's important to just hold it in a different place so that it can always be there, even if you're not sitting where you usually sit to have those chants, you know, or you might not be able to vocalize that chant. I was given a beautiful card by a student here.

[40:58]

And it was a card of a photo from, I hope I'm getting the story right, that came from an internment camp, you know, when they were interning in Japanese during the World War, World War II. And they buried these pebbles. And then the pebbles, when they put them together, realized they were calligraphy of the Heart Sutra. But they weren't allowed to do that, so this monk etched them on stone and buried them so they wouldn't be found, so that they could have it. So it's in you. It's in the monk. It's in your life. And I say this so you don't have to go somewhere and get some more tools. You know, you keep adding, we got some big basket. Okay, let me bring this on. You know, let me try this. I have some too. Let me try this. And that's good. It does, I think, keep us with some wherewithal.

[42:05]

That's where it's an old word. Wherewithal. And to, like you said, so I just want to push a little bit and let you know that that's you. That's your life. And it's beautiful. And thank you for sharing it. with us, thank you. Way up there, high hand. Hello. Thank you for being with us. I have a question. I have scientific mindset. always with scenarios, with details from plan A, plan B, point A, point B, and everything like that. At this point, I'm in a part in my life that I need to sit with the unknown, with the uncertainty. And that's rooted in some reasons and some suffering.

[43:09]

And it's very difficult. Could you please share? You said you want some softening? Suffering. suffering. Could you please share some word of wisdom about when you mention about with the unknown accepting and moving forward, could you please share more about this? Thank you. Cease from a kind of practice based on intellectual understanding. pursuing words and following after speech, pursuing formulas, and learn the backward step that turns your light inwardly to illuminate you. So even if you're in science, isn't it illuminating who you are as a human being? Not what you're made of, but who you are. There's nothing wrong with the science. But if it's an intellectual understanding of things always, pursuing words and following after speech, and then...

[44:16]

Buddha asks, learn the backwards step. And that turns your light inwardly to illuminate you, to illuminate yourself. And so that living, the importance of living can go beyond, you know, having proof, having evidence. Is there any evidence that we're awakened? Even though I said it? if there any of them, who might want to take this into a dissertation? We could, I think. Is there any evidence that we're going to get anything out of anything? But we might try. We might spend our whole life trying to get something out of something. So the suffering, when we don't get what we want to get out of it, that's when the suffering I experience comes to me.

[45:22]

Like, I'm not going to get it. I'm not going to get what I need. Oh, no, this is not a good life. I need to do something. And then there's really nothing to do because then I still continue. I'm going to get something and get something and get something. But when I let that go and begin to say, I want to live my life. I want to live life. And I want to live it fully, fully as I am. All my fears, all my sadness, all my peace, all of it. I want to just keep living the moment. Can you live this moment right now? Even though you know you suffer from the scientific, like this moment. Can you live it? Be still. Does that help? Thank you, Jennifer and Osho and other curious person for enacting and clarifying

[46:44]

the use of tools versus, uh, living our life, uh, uh, it, it reminded me of times when, uh, like, uh, I'm depressed or I have body, and so for depression, you're supposed to exercise, eat right, sleep, visit with friends, and, and I've, I've done all the tools and I still feel depressed. Or like I have shoulder pain and I eat anti-inflammatory foods and do all the physical therapy and I still have the shoulder pain. And it's in those times when the thought is I've done everything and this thing I don't want is still happening. And the surrender that comes from that Like maybe it's a Tibetan story of the demons have invaded your home and they're eating all your food and sitting on your couch all stinky and you try to get them out of the house.

[48:00]

You want them to go away and they're still there. So you put your head inside the house. mouth of the head demon, and then they disappear, which maybe is irrelevant. Sorry for that digression. Sounds like you're a storyteller. You know my father? But it's a story. Yeah, I love it. I love it. So you're welcome. I would say, I want to thank you for sharing that. I would say that just listening and feeling intuitively and to Your words is exactly, exactly what I feel exhausts us. There's so many things we could get into of our bodies, our emotions, and they're good to get into and engage. But it feels like it turns us sometimes into fixing so much that life is just sitting there.

[49:01]

You know, like it's over here and then we really got to do this so we can live. You know, like it's two separate things. And what I'm trying to bring in is a totality of the suffering and the suffering being a part of it so that you don't have to be busy over here chopping, [...] you know, everything in order to live. And I just know that I'm speaking actually from my own experience of walking this path and going nowhere because nothing happens, you know, other than me just being there and me being illuminated. You know, me as a body, as a person, even beyond that, you know, having the illumination. So these things will come on us, and sometimes I think they come worse, you know, more intensify at times when we're focused, again, like I say, microscopic look at life. And especially we come into these practices a lot with this kind of I'm going to do this, you know, so that when I come out of, you know,

[50:05]

A few years from now, I'll be, I don't look to be enlightened, but I'll be a better person. I'll feel better. I'll eat better. Just like you said, these kinds of things. And I'm not saying they're to be ignored. I'm just bringing more totality of life to live this life and to ask about how do I live this life rather than how can I not suffer this? And you could ask both, but which question kind of gets you more alive? Which one brings the juice to your life to discover? Even the depression to bring more ascendance within that, even though you're still in that. You could still be in the depression and still have the ascendance within it. You don't think Buddha got depressed out there in that forest? I know.

[51:05]

He must have. I mean, the way they talk about that story, one grain of rice. So I don't know. I'm just making a joke. I think he suffered greatly. I think he suffered in a palace as well, and he ran away. He made it look like a project. This is my story. He made it look like a project. But then when he got there, he said, oh, this is a project. Oh, oh. oh no, this is not what I meant to do. I think that the discovery, the teachings having come from someone's walk going nowhere, he was going nowhere. He didn't know where he was going. He had his fellowship. He didn't know. Just walking, sitting upon roots of different trees. and waiting open to whatever was going to come to.

[52:08]

And maybe nothing would have come. And there were many people who did that practice of walking nowhere into the forest. I think I'm going to end there. I'm enjoying you. Thank you. Oh, I saw one end. Was that an end that I ended? Okay, the last one. Thank you. Thank you. This poem revealed itself to me about seven years ago. It's an 11th century wandering monk poet in Japan named Saigyo. Saigyo. After the leaves fall in the village at the foot of Ogura Peak, one can see through the tree, branches, the moon shining in the clear.

[53:22]

The past three weeks, awesome and I keep coming back to tree imagery and it feels like what we talk about and the stillness of trees growing leaves obstructing the shining clearness of the moon and just trying to shed them and it's like the constant happening Thank you. I love Sekio. Poetry was part of mine. So, thank you. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered at no cost and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma.

[54:31]

For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving. May we fully enjoy the Dharma.

[54:40]

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