This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good morning, everybody. A very pleasant experience to see you all. I hope you're all well. we were young Zen students a very long time ago. We were all trying mightily to get enlightened. We had no idea what that meant, but somehow we were very compelled by it and dedicated to it, and we worked really hard.

[01:03]

And we practiced really hard. Probably a lot about it was foolish. But when I look back on those years, it makes me feel happy. Because we were young and we were courageous. And we really believed in renunciation. We were willing to give up absolutely everything. in order to practice it was a very noble undertaking even if in many ways it was a failure in other ways it was a great success because we're still here and we're still going and Greenville is still here and there are still some young people not as many as there were then but some who are willing to make such sacrifices for a wonderful ideal.

[02:12]

I bet everybody here knows that Suzuki Roshi has a new book. This is quite a trick. 50 years after you leave this earth to come out with a new book. Very seldom was this done, but Suzuki Roshi... Managed to do it with a little help from his friends. In this case, our old teacher, Sojin. Roshi, who is also no longer with us. And Jiryu, our abbot, who is very much with us. And that's a good thing. I'm grateful for that. This book, Becoming Yourself. And I've been studying this book lately. And there's a little passage in here where Suzuki Roshi talks about renunciation. Here's what he says. Renunciation is that A is just A. And A is bound to disappear.

[03:23]

That's renunciation. To practice renunciation is to be beyond forms and colors, meaning perception. We have full appreciation of forms and colors, but they are bound to disappear, and we should not be caught by them. We do not give them up, but we accept that they go away, and that is renunciation. If A... always tries to remain A, that is, attachment to something which does not exist. It is delusion, not renunciation. A should just be A, and A should vanish in the form of A, though it will appear again in some form of C or D, but C or D should not try to be something different from C or D. In other words, Renunciation is not making big sacrifices because you can't make sacrifices when you don't have anything to sacrifice.

[04:35]

Renunciation is understanding that you have nothing because everything is disappearing. Everything, every person, every moment is always in a state of vanishing. And that's why you're willing to just be yourself as you really are all the time without expecting anything or being anyone in particular other than the way you appear to be right now in these conditions. And now, after all these years have gone by, I think maybe... This is the enlightenment we were looking for. Although at the time I don't think we understood it. Such a simple thing. But also a very profound thing.

[05:41]

To know who you really are. And to know for sure that every moment you are vanishing. In that way there is real peace in real ease, just to be here. As we all know so well, this world is full of stress and anxiety. But all of that is really just mistaken, because there's nothing to be anxious about. Sorrow? Maybe, yes? sometimes, but not anxiety. In those days, there weren't very many, long ago, you know, when we started practicing, there weren't that many Buddhists around. It was a very rare and unusual thing to be practicing Buddhism.

[06:47]

But now, especially around here, wherever you look, you find a Buddhist. They're all over the place. especially if you count mindfulness as Buddhism, practically everybody's a Buddhist. There really are a lot of Buddhists around. But I have the impression that not that many of them are trying to become enlightened. Not that many of them are willing to give up everything and become renunciants. Probably most of them, understandably, are trying to cope with And they think that the practice will help them. And I think it will. The Buddha had some very good teachings about how to live with more kindness and less trouble. But if you undertake the serious study of Buddhism, you're going to hear a lot all the time about enlightenment. You can't avoid it. Enlightenment is a very lofty thing.

[07:50]

And even though there are so many different definitions of it and descriptions of it it's not so clear really exactly what it is but that it is important and that it is necessary for the practice seems clear because there are three treasures the Dharma which is the teachings and the practice the Sangha which is the community but the first treasure is is the Buddha, the awakened one, the enlightened one. And then, in Zen, we say all beings are Buddha, all beings are awakened. So how to realize our enlightenment and how to live it is our practice and our problem. Did you ever wonder, what are you supposed to do after you're enlightened?

[08:51]

through all that effort and work, and then you get enlightened. Now what are you supposed to do? Did you ever think of that? When we were young strivers for enlightenment, we didn't think of that. We didn't have a plan for what we were going to do. At least I didn't have a plan for what I was going to do in that distant day when I became enlightened. Maybe open a restaurant? Something. Serve, you know, vegetarian, vegan food? I don't know. We didn't have plans. We didn't know. So I thought about this. What are you supposed to do after you're enlightened? So I looked it up. I did. I looked it up. I didn't look it up on Google or Claude or anything like that because I'm not sure they would know. But I looked it up in the sutra. And I found out. It turns out that after he was enlightened, the Buddha didn't know what to do, actually.

[09:57]

Because there wasn't anything to do. He was feeling happy and peaceful and settled. And he needed absolutely nothing. So he didn't have to do anything to get something. He didn't know what to do, so he just walked up and down by the river, not knowing what else to do with himself. And it was very enjoyable, you know, lovely day, water moving, beautiful sky. He was pretty happy. He didn't really worry about what to do next. But then some gods showed up and they came to him and seeing that he was the Buddha, they begged him to teach. And I guess these gods had been waiting for him for a long time to become enlightened. And now that he was enlightened, they were very much looking forward to his teaching. But the Buddha had never thought about teaching. What was there to teach? He figured that what he had found out, though it was radically simple, was pretty much impossible to convey, impossible to explain.

[11:10]

So he never thought of teaching. But the gods beseeched him desperately. And in the state that he was in, there was no way that he could refuse them. So he decided he would do his best to help. And even though it seemed impossible, he thought he would try to teach. But who was he going to teach? Well, you all know the story that just before the Buddha's awakening, he had been doing severe practice with five ascetics, very, very determined religious hermits who were interested in intense asceticism, extreme forms of renunciation and sacrifice, eating one grain of rice a day, going nearly naked in all kinds of weather, standing in a lake with the water up to here and not moving for days, meditating weeks and weeks on end, no breaks,

[12:19]

enduring extreme cold, extreme heat, all kinds of insects biting them without swatting them away, and so on. This is what they did. You might well wonder, why would anyone want to do stuff like that? But actually, in the religion business, this is a very popular thing to do. It's weird, but... In the religion business, people like to do stuff like this because when you endure all these hardships, very intense experiences come from this. It's kind of like the people who want to climb to the top of Mount Everest or scale the rock face of Half Dome or go on 100-mile runs. It's pretty dangerous stuff, but the views are spectacular. So that's what they were doing. They were devoting themselves, including the Buddha, to this kind of practice because he was joining them in this.

[13:27]

And the Buddha nearly died in the process. And we can imagine all the powerful religious experiences that the Buddha had. But he realized that wasn't what he was looking for. He was not looking for colorful, mystical experiences. He was looking for an everyday understanding that would free him from the traps and snares of ordinary human suffering, and freed him. And when he realized that, he gave up his practice of extreme asceticism, he abandoned the five ascetics, and he ate a little rice pudding. This is my favorite part of the story. He ate a little rice pudding. I love rice pudding, you know. Down in Mexico, we have Rohatsu Sashen, and I always, you know, to celebrate the Buddha's awakening, I always talk about the rice pudding, and then they serve the rice pudding.

[14:33]

But no matter how much rice pudding they serve, it's never as good as my mother's rice pudding. Anyway, the Buddha ate a little rice pudding, and that's when... strengthened by the rice pudding, he thought, well, I'll sit down under the tree. Well, eating such nice food is bad enough, but receiving that food from an attractive young maiden, which is what happened to the Buddha, was even worse. And the five ascetics had a great antipathy for women, especially young and attractive ones. So when they saw the Buddha receiving this food from this young, attractive woman and eating it, they were really disgusted with him. Yeah, he's just a piker he gave up. And they left in disgust. And then, as you know, the Buddha later on, soon later on, was awakened. And now that he was urged by the gods to teach, and he was wondering...

[15:39]

who to teach. He was kind of walking down the road aimlessly wondering, where am I going to find someone to teach? And who should be walking toward him at that very moment? Guess who? The five ascetics. The same five ascetics. And he figured, well, if these guys with their stubborn fanaticism would be able to hear him, anybody would. So he approached them. And they were all huffy and they said, well, we're going to avoid this guy. You know, he's not serious. But somehow the Buddha was so serene and self-possessed that they were drawn to him, even though they didn't want to go there. And they did stop and listen to him. And that encounter between Buddha and the five ascetics on the day of his awakening is recorded.

[16:40]

as the Buddha's first sermon, the Buddha's first Dharma talk, the turning the Dharma wheel sutra. So now I'm going to quote from that sutra. On one occasion, the blessed one was staying at Varanasi in the game refuge at Isipatthana, and there he addressed the group of five ascetics and said this, There are two extremes. that are not to be indulged in by one who has gone forth. And one who has gone forth means to the path. What are the two? That which is devoted to self-gratification and sensual pleasure, and that which is devoted to self-denial, which is painful and unprofitable. Avoiding both these extremes, the middle way realized by the Tathagata, producing vision, Producing knowledge leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to peace.

[17:48]

So that's the famous first statement of the Buddhist path as the middle way, the way of moderation between asceticism on the one hand and self-indulgence on the other. But it is important to remember that the Buddha did not have an eternal truth. that he was teaching. His awakening had given him an easy-going and spontaneous understanding of how to live. And he was always trying to figure out the best way to guide others to that same understanding. But he didn't have an eternal truth that he always insisted on, that was always the same, always consistent. If you read the sutras, you realize that he taught according to the situation and according to the person. Sometimes he would say, it's essential that you go this way, this way, this way.

[18:51]

And other times he would say, no, no, no, don't go this way, go that way, that way, that way. Depends on the situation and what was needed at the time. So here, we have to keep in mind that he's talking to the five ascetics. who had abandoned all forms, even mild forms, of self-indulgence, and were practicing extreme self-denial. So to them, he was saying, you know, you guys are right. Self-indulgence is no good. It looks innocent enough, but it's very dangerous, and you know that. But self-denial isn't the answer either. That's what he said that time. But later, he explained the middle way very differently. He said, it's a middle way between the extremes of existence and non-existence.

[19:53]

That's the middle way. As we just heard from Suzuki Roshi, A is vanishing. That's what makes A, A. In other words, all of us are alive exactly because we are always dying. We call that time is passing. And so there's nothing to hold on to. All dharmas that we think we can possess, including most especially our abiding self, are empty, as we chant every day in the Heart Sutra. So that's the middle way between the extremes of existence and non-existence.

[20:53]

But the turning the wheel of the Dharma Sutra goes on to say, and what is the middle way realized by the Tathagata, that producing vision, producing knowledge, leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to peace. It's precisely this noble Eightfold Path. Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. That's the middle way, realized by the Tathagata, that producing vision, producing knowledge, leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, and to peace. So the Buddha is saying here that the point of the middle path is to understand our life as it really is. And that's the only way that we'll ever really find peace. Nothing we could get or know or have or understand would ever bring us peace outside of knowing our life as it really is.

[22:01]

And when we know that naturally we're going to live differently. Everything about our lives will be different. In other words, the knowledge that the Buddha is talking about is inseparable from the way we live. And he's saying that the way we come to this understanding is not through some special insight in meditation, because meditation is one of eight ways of practice that more or less, if you think about those eight things, they more or less involve every single thing in our lives, how we speak, how we think, our actions, our ethical conduct, both in personal matters and in social matters, our understanding of things, and yes, yes, our meditation. So meditation is important. You know, the word Zen is a Japanese reading of the word for meditation in Pali and Sanskrit.

[23:07]

So that's why in Zen we focus on meditation, we practice zazen. But in our practice, zazen is not limited to sitting in a certain way. Zazen includes our whole life. The Buddha then goes on in the sutra. Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress. Birth is stressful. Aging is stressful. Death is stressful. Sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair are stressful. Getting what you don't want is stressful. And not getting what you do want is stressful. In short, the five clinging aggregates, everything in this conditioned world, are stressful. And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress, the craving that makes for further becoming, accompanied by passion and delight, relishing now here and now there.

[24:19]

That is, craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming. And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation, of stress, the remainderless fading and cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, and letting go of that very craving. And this, monks, is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress, precisely this noble Eightfold Path. Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness. right concentration. And of course, those are the Four Noble Truths, which are the Buddha's first and best attempt to create a framework so people could understand and be motivated to devote themselves to practice and awakening.

[25:22]

Many people have pointed out that the form of the Four Noble Truths is just like a physician, the way a physician understands illness. First, diagnosis, then cause of the illness, then removing the cause with the medicine. Stress is the word that our translator here, Tanisara Bhikkhu, the great American Theravada monastic, uses in to translate the word dukkha or suffering. He uses the word stress. So the medicine that will eliminate the obsession and therefore end the suffering is the Eightfold Path that he mentioned in the beginning, this total way of life. The next thing in the sutra that the Buddha says to the ascetics

[26:32]

is actually very personal. It doesn't sound personal, necessarily. But when you think about the context, these are his companions. They were practicing together for a really long time. And then he disagreed with them, and they abandoned him. And then he had further understandings and adventures. And he wants to tell them what happens. And now he explains to them. He's telling them, this is what happened after I left you and you left me. This is what I experienced. And he's expressing what a joyful thing it was for him and how certain he was. He had the experience of being so certain that the way that he had practiced was absolutely true. He knew it. And he wanted to tell them how he felt. So this is what he said to them. Vision arose. Insight arose. Understanding arose.

[27:33]

Illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before. This is the noble truth of suffering. Vision arose. Insight arose. Understanding arose. Illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before. This is the noble truth of suffering that is to be comprehended. Vision arose, insight arose, understanding arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before. This noble truth of suffering has been comprehended. So what the Buddha is saying here is that he went through three stages of understanding the noble truth of suffering.

[28:41]

And then, I won't go through it, but in the rest of the sutra he has the same formula for the other three noble truths. These three stages are first a deep insight. This is the truth of suffering. I know it. I see it. I understand it. It's true. It's not just a passing thought in my mind. That's the first stage. But the second stage is, wow, this is more than I ever imagined. And I know that I have not understood it thoroughly enough. I know it with my mind, but I don't yet know it with my body, with my breath, with my emotions. I don't yet know it deeply enough. And I have to keep going to know it deeper. That's the second stage.

[29:45]

And the third stage is, you know it. Completely. No doubt. No question. Suffering, origination, stopping, path. That's what the Buddha understood with full understanding on the morning of his awakening. And then the Buddha says, so that's what happened, guys. That's what I discovered. Everything I set out to do has been done. The sutra then says, and that's what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the group of five ascetics delighted at his words. And, while he was saying this, there arose in venerable kandanya, one of the five ascetics, the dustless, stainless dharma eye.

[30:54]

Whatever is subject to origination, is subject to cessation. I think this is the most important moment in the history of Buddhism, that moment. I think it's more important than the Buddha's birth, it's more important than the Buddha's home-leaving, more important than the Buddha's awakening. Because if the Buddha awakened and had a wonderful life, and passed away, we would never have heard of him and his awakening would have done us no good. And if the Buddha had tried to teach people and no one had understood, also we would have never heard of him and his life would have done us no good. But that kandanya understood that somehow, despite the impossibility of it,

[31:57]

one person understood, and so the Dharma could be communicated and passed on, so that now, more than 2,500 years after the Buddha's passing, we can still practice it today, that's the most important thing that ever happened in the whole history of Buddhism. Which means that the story of the Buddha is not the story of one man's heroic quest for awakening. It's the story of two people, the Buddha and Kandanya. And it's the story of five people, or ten people, or ten million people, or some billions of people. In other words, the story of the Buddha is the story of you and I. And this is the thing that we focus on so much in Zen practice. We make a very, very big deal out of this. In Zen practice, we say... The Dharma that is not handed down face to face, person to person, is not the Dharma.

[33:04]

Because the essence of the Dharma is that it exists between us. It exists through our connection and it is handed down generation after generation. So Dharma friendship and Dharma relations are so much prized in our tradition. They're not just friendships. human connections. They go to the essence of what the Dharma is and who we are. And the tradition of looking at it like that, as we do in Zen, begins right here, when Kandanya suddenly in a moment understands, and the Buddha is overjoyed to know that Kandanya understood. And what did he understand? It tells you right there what he understood. What he understood was that what is subject to origination is also subject to cessation. He understood that what appears disappears. That what is born dies.

[34:06]

That's it. That's the whole of the Dharma. Who doesn't know that? Ask anybody. They'll tell you that. Everybody knows that. But who really knows it? Body, mind, heart, soul, emotions, visions, perception. Who knows it every waking moment? Who knows it when they're asleep? Who knows it as they live? Who knows it as they die? Throughout all the senses, the whole mind, that's the path. of our practice. And then here's the last passage of the sutra. And when Kandanya understood, the Blessed One had set the wheel of Dharma in motion, and all the earth gods cried out,

[35:17]

At Varanasi, in the game refuge at Isipatana, the blessed one has set in motion the unexcelled wheel of Dharma that cannot be stopped by anyone in the cosmos. It's spinning now. It'll never stop. And when the four kings' heavens gods heard the earth gods say that, they said it too. Same thing. And then the sutra repeats the same words. And then when the gods of the 33 heard the four kings, heaven's gods say it, they said it too, and it repeats the same words. Then the Yama gods heard it, and they repeated it. The Tushita gods heard it, they repeated it. The Namanarati gods heard it, and they repeated it. The Parinamana Vasadvati gods heard it, and they repeated it. On and on and on. The gods of the Brahma's retinue took up the cry. The cry shot right up to the Brahma worlds, and this Ten thousand bold cosmos shivered and quaked and quivered while a great measureless radiance appeared throughout the cosmos.

[36:31]

I guess that's the Big Bang. So that's the end of the sutra. So that happened and this apparently really encouraged the Buddha to continue to practice for the benefit of others because he saw that it could do some good. And that's what he did for the rest of his life. He just practiced with everybody every day. No record that the Buddha ever took a day off for something like, what was it, 40 or 50 years, something like that. So that's the answer to the question. What do you do after you're enlightened? You keep on practicing for and with others. And that's what I've been doing for a long time. I don't know how many weeks, hours, minutes, days, months, years, and even some decades in this very room, sitting in silence.

[37:41]

And I'm happy that I could spend a life like this and that I could share the Dharma with many, many people who, just like Gondanya, do understand. So I'm really grateful to the Buddha and to my teachers who have carried forth the Buddha's teaching and to the many thousands and thousands of people who, over the years, taking care of this room and this temple and the other temples of Zen Center and kept it going. And even when Zen does burn down, they rebuild. And we keep going. Honestly, I cannot think of a better way to spend a lifetime. So I want to thank all of you in the room here who are devoting your energies to keeping the Dharma going here in this precious dragon valley.

[38:55]

The Dharma wheel is still turning. It's going to turn and turn and turn. Thank you for listening. So we're having questions now. Do we chant first and then the questions? Questions first. Okay, so we have maybe 15 minutes or so for comments. You don't have to ask a question. You can make a comment. You can make a declaration. You can even bring up some other subject if you want. Whatever you want to say. I guess we have a mic that's going to go to you when you want to speak. So I guess you have to raise your hand and the mic comes to you. Thank you for your talk. Can you say a little more about luminosity? Luminosity.

[39:57]

What makes you ask that question? What are you interested in about luminosity? Because I hear it and I read about it, but I don't know much about it. And it seems pretty essential. But it's also, even when I think about it, it is that it's ungraspable, it's ununderstandable, but I would just need more support around trying to lead my way towards knowing it or understanding it or whatever the right, correct. I understand, yeah. Well, you know, I don't think that I know anything more about luminosity than you do. It means light, of course, a glow of light. And you could say that without light, there's no consciousness. Sometimes luminosity is a synonym for consciousness, right?

[41:02]

I'm impressed by the fact that, the strange fact that very few people notice, that, you know, in the Bible when it says, let there be light, It says, let there be light. It actually doesn't say, in Hebrew, it doesn't say, let there be light and there was light. It says, let there be light. No, it says, there's no let there. It just says, there is light and there is light. That's what it says. But very few people notice that this is said quite a long time before there's a sun and a moon. There's light. but there's no sun and moon, so what kind of light was there? So somehow or other, consciousness is light. Consciousness, awareness is light. And so in spiritual traditions, not only Buddhism, but in many other traditions, luminousness or light is used as a metaphor for the kind of awakened view

[42:10]

of reality or awaken being in reality that we're aiming toward. The kind of luminous softness to be in reality with everything as one. Something like that. So it's used as a metaphor in a lot of traditions. But what it really is, you know, I guess part of the point of it is that we don't know what it really is. We can't know what it really is. Because everything that we could know wouldn't be it. So we couldn't really know. That's all I could say about it. Thank you. By the way, actual physical light is itself quite a strange phenomenon. Nobody understands what light is, what actual physical light is either. And I remember reading some amazing treatise about perception where it said that, of course... we don't see objects, right? We see light. We're not seeing the objects, we're seeing the light.

[43:14]

And we see the light, I think, this is what this treatise said, I can't remember exactly, but something like, when the light that strikes the object dies, that's when we see the object, what we call the object. But what we're seeing is the dying light. Not objects. We never see objects. There's no way to see an object. That an object is there reflecting light might be the case, but we don't see the object. We see the reflecting light as it dies. And also the idea that the speed of light is a constant in the universe. Why should the speed of light be a constant in the universe? Why not the speed of a Tesla? But no, the speed of light is the constant. So light is somehow this very basic thing. And nobody understands why or what it is. I mean, there's all this stuff about how it's not a particle, it's not a wave. I don't even know. Don't ask me to, because I don't know those things. But anyway, that light, physical light, is uncanny.

[44:17]

It seems to be a true fact of the physical universe. Yeah. Anyway. A very basic question. Could you say a little more about the relation of... desire and renunciation, since desire seems such a fundamental, inescapable part of action. And I just feel it omnipresent in my psyche. Could you say a little more? Yeah, I don't think anybody would ever think that it would be possible for someone to remain a sentient human being and that there would be no desire. Because If you didn't have desire, you wouldn't eat. And if you didn't eat, you would soon perish. Although there are some extreme ascetics who perish exactly like that. So it's not a matter of that desire would somehow disappear, but simply that we would be fully awake within the desire itself.

[45:28]

We would... allow the desire to arise and pass away and satisfy it as needed without that extra obsession. I think, you know, like if you notice very closely when you eat food, you're chewing on the food and something in you is anticipating and grabbing for the next bite. You know? Desire is like that. Desire has a kind of obsessive quality to it. I mean, that's an extreme word, obsession. And we do know cases of obsessive desire that are really very destructive, right? But even ordinary desire has that quality to it. So here, the practice would be to experience desire as its own fulfillment, take care of what needs to be taken care of, and let go. So you can't eliminate desire, but you can not be pushed around by it.

[46:34]

It helps to sit, you know, because the mind is so quick. Before you even know what's going on, you're already in the soup. When you sit, you can tell. You notice, whoa, I'm going in the soup. I guess I won't go. Hi there. Hi. Thank you for your insightful lecture today. Brought me to tears. Sorry. No. So I have a question and it's you have to have a human experience to know desire and you have to have experiences to know what's not good for you, what is good for you, what's excess, what is... And so, do you think maybe enlightenment can be self-love?

[47:40]

Do I think... Say that again, please. Knowing yourself and loving yourself and knowing that you forgive yourself for the desire, you understand the desire, and you make peace with yourself... And it's a deep love. Yes. With a slight amendment that also you would know that yourself is not different from everything that's not yourself. Yes. If you loved yourself and you thought, well, all these other guys, I don't know about them, but I love myself a lot. That would be a problem. If you really loved yourself, then I think you would see that everything else around you is also yourself that you equally love. Love it. At least more or less equally. This is a follow-up on your answer earlier to another question.

[49:00]

You mentioned desire has an obsessive quality. I'm wondering what's your view and what does pursuing that obsession or feeding desires, what does it do to the mind? What's your view of the Buddha's view? Yeah. Well, actually, I was distracted when I was listening to you because I had a further thought about the basic question about desire, which I guess connects to what you're bringing up. And that is that the extra part, the obsessional part of desire is, I want it. I want it. I'm going to have it. And even though he wants it too, I'm going to elbow him out of the way. so I can get it but I want it but a desire that just arises because food is needed now or the sky is beautiful and I'm enjoying looking at it not that I need it but it's just occurring it's the I need it part that's the obsessive part and yes if you indulge the I need this

[50:25]

and you go on and on with desire and aggrandize the self on and on, it's a very sad story, right? We've seen these sad stories where people become obsessed with their needs and their desires, and they become very lonely, and sometimes if what they desire is destructive, and almost everything in excess is destructive, but especially if it's some substance that wrecks the body and mind, or some behavior that is very destructive to self and others, then, yeah, it's a horrible thing. So I think we want to tame that grabbiness and just be satisfied. You know, the mind and the heart and the body are satisfied with not so much. It doesn't require so much. And the more we think we need and the more complex our desires are, the more... out of whack our life becomes.

[51:27]

But you know, it's very economical to have few desires. Because then you don't have to earn a lot of money to buy a lot of stuff, right? You just say, well, you know, I'm very happy that... Like, you know, one of the nice things is, I think, one of the great things is to... walk across a room without any pain in the body. Just walk across the room and there's no pain in the body and the body's moving and walking is such a beautiful thing. There's a rhythm to it. I'm very happy with that, right? I don't need like, I don't know, special equipment to do that or to do it more or less. I'm doing it now. That's enough. So in other words, when desire is really in sync with the conditions and their satisfaction in the desire that's present and it's as a human need at that moment, then we can have a lot of happiness and we don't need a lot of stuff because, you know, in the end, you know, they're going to take away all our stuff.

[52:46]

You know that, right? They're going to take away all our stuff. Everything. Our friends, Everybody, they can take it all away. And so it would be good to be satisfied with this breath and with this consciousness, to rest in this consciousness now, and that that would be satisfying enough. Because it's going to come down to that. And if we're needing more of this and more of that, and instead we're getting that, ooh, it's going to be really hard. I hope none of us experience that. Thank you for your talk. Thank you for listening. No listening, no talk, you know. When it comes to engaging in desire, I'm just curious, could you elaborate on renunciation versus active engagement and appropriate relation to desire in a

[53:54]

Civilian sense. Civilian. Well, what Suzuki Roshi says I think is very profound. He says that if we understand at all points that we really don't have anything and that really every moment is disappearing and we really know that, without like the sutra says you know with our whole body and mind all three stages of knowing it then really our desire desires and their satisfactions is no problem Suzuki Roshi says we don't give these things up we don't give up form and color we don't give up perception we don't give up enjoyment we don't give up living in this world with others we just understand what it is and so we don't grab We don't demand and need something extra for ourselves.

[54:55]

We're just present with what's here, with full enjoyment and full satisfaction. So, you know, you could just literally practice all the time the mantra, this is enough. Whatever it is, you know, I wanted that, but no, this is enough. This is enough. In this moment, it's enough. What I have here in now, it's enough. Every moment, it's enough. And if you're cooking a meal, the cooking is enough. Maybe you'll never get to eat the meal. Because you never know. But the cooking, the meal is enough. I put the meal on the table. Putting the meal on the table, that's enough. I'm eating the meal. Just enough. Now I'm cleaning up the meal. Just enough. Now I'm on the toilet. Just enough.

[55:58]

Now I'm hungry again. Hunger is just enough. Always. So you can practice like that. Just enough. All the time. See what that does to your life if you think that every moment is just enough. Thank you. But in terms of renunciation, so giving up, if I were... become monastic and good idea contemplating I've been I've just been contemplating like personally in terms of whether I guess that allows you to more appropriately engage and focus on my relationship with desire versus engaging with the flurry of things that go on in my day-to-day life and trying to maintain a right relationship with desire is difficult in that situation, so focusing on it entirely allows me to better my relationship with it. I'm just... Yeah, yeah, okay. Yes, well, I think it is possible in the flurry and worry of the regular world to do this practice.

[57:07]

I think realistically, though, it's not easy, and it does require a kind of discipline of daily practice, daily practice, daily sitting, like... In our community, we have daily sitting, monthly all-day sit, annual session, annual practice period, weekly sitting in Dharna seminar. So you have to have a disciplined program of practice. And then it's difficult, but it's actually quite interesting in the crazy world to maintain your practice and your clarity. It's actually much easier to do it when that's the only thing you're doing. So in monastic communities, I mean, to be realistic, of course, in monastic communities or Green Gulch, which is sort of the semi-monastic community, you know, there's still activity and people still doing things. There's plenty of controversy and trouble. It's not like paradise compared to the regular world. But it's much, I mean, it's clear at a place like this that this is what we're all trying to do.

[58:10]

In the world at large, people don't agree that we're all trying to do that. They think they're Many people are trying to do various different things. But here, the agreement that we all have is we're all trying to do this. So it's easier. It's much easier. So I always recommend to somebody, you know, come to a practice place and spend a good long time there. It's worth it. Because even if you leave after a while, your life is different. And you're going to be able to live in this world differently. It's worth it. People think, oh my God, I can't take a minute off. Well, you're already doomed if you think that. Right? But people do think that, oh, I can't afford to do that. I can never do that. What if I lose my place in line? So, yeah, it's easier. It's easier. But it absolutely can be done in the world with discipline and with support. You need other people to help you out. But, yes, I mean, you know, the Lotus Sutra says...

[59:14]

Guess what, everybody? Guess what? You might not be able to see the flames exactly, but the house is on fire. The house is on fire and it's burning down wherever you are. So you better do something. I think we have reached the end of the line. I think we... Okay? Yeah, it's time. So we have to chant and go away and then we're forced to drink tea and eat cookies or something like that. Tough life we have here, huh? Well, I do appreciate your listening and your coming and your sincerity and I honestly, I am so impressed with Buddha Dharma it's so good you know it's so wise it's not perfect you know that you can have all kinds of complaints that will be justified but in general it is a very crazy world what goes on in the world is very troubling and we need to try to make it better but let's be honest it's a long road and it's very frustrating very frustrating

[60:46]

And we need a way of sustaining ourselves with some happiness. And the Dharma is so good at that. It gives us a way of life, a way to understand that really, really, really helps. So please, everybody here, whether you just showed up, stumbled in here for the first time thinking it was a restaurant or bar, and showed up at the lecture, whether that's you or you've been coming for years, please continue your practice. It's really nice to see you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our programs are made possible by the donations we receive. Please help us to continue to realize and actualize the practice of giving by offering your financial support. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving. May we fully enjoy the Dharma.

[61:47]

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