This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. This morning, I'm going to comment on a talk by Suzuki Roshi about precepts and student-teacher relationships. As we know, there are two behavioral texts. One is Shingi, which we recited in the beginning of the practice period. And that's the rules of behavior in the monastery, how we actually...

[01:01]

relate to each other and to the work and to the environment of our practice. And then the precepts are more universal. Shingi is more local, but precepts are more universal. Just how our rules of Not rules. Precepts are not rules. Precepts are our inmost request to act appropriately. We tend to have a tendency to think that precepts are something to keep us in line. But actually, precepts are there to free us.

[02:06]

And when we realize what they are, we realize that they are our own request to help us with appropriate activity and response. So, you know, there are the 16 precepts. taking refuge in Buddha Dharma Saga, the three pure precepts, and then attend what we call prohibitory, but we can also call pure mind precepts. So, he talks about the precepts. He starts out, of course, by saying, in the lotus position, we cross the right leg over the left and the left leg over the right.

[03:10]

Symbolically, the right is activity and the left is the opposite, our calmness of mind. So, the right leg is activity, and the opposite is the absolute, so to speak. So the left leg is the essential, calmness, stillness, the basis, and it supports the activity, which is the right leg. So that's why we cross our legs in that way. People say, is it okay to cross our legs the other way? Yes. It's okay. But you should understand why we do it the other way.

[04:13]

So the left is wisdom and the right is practice. And when we cross our legs, we don't know which is which. So in the full lotus, it's true. You don't know which is which. so even though we have two symbolically we have oneness our posture is vertical without leaning right or left backward or forward and this is an expression a perfect understanding of the teaching that is beyond duality so symbolically this is true but actually physically it's true as well sitting in the full lotus position which I don't recommend to everybody but I think it's a great idea if you can do it a great thing if you can do it it's the most stable position and you realize that the balance is you don't know which is which so the absolute and the relative are one thing and this is what makes us feel good

[05:31]

This is called bliss. When we extend this, we naturally have precepts. So precepts comes out of that stability. It's not like precepts are something imposed on us, which we often feel. Sometimes people say, I will not take the precepts. Why not? I can't keep them all. I don't think I can keep all the precepts, which is a good observation. But it's not a good reason. So we all take the precepts knowing that we can't keep them, knowing that it's impossible to keep them as written. So if we have this understanding, or if we believe that precepts are rules, and that if you don't keep them perfectly, you're breaking them, that's a mistake, because they're guidelines.

[06:31]

They're not commandments. Precepts are guidelines. They keep us. We have something to relate to. When we have a problem, we can go to the precepts to get some advice. But we take the precepts. We say, I vow. They're vows. But as I think I said this once before, as long as you are dedicated to following the precepts, so to speak, as guidelines. Even though you break them all the time, it's not really breaking. It's called staining. And so we have these wonderful stains on our clothes, but we wash our clothes all the time. And as long as they're clean, it's okay to have them stained. As a matter of fact, they look more beautiful when they're stained and washed. Work clothes look really wonderful and beautiful when they're stained and washed.

[07:38]

When I was in my younger days, I used to wear my Levi's with holes in the knees. And now they sell them with holes in the knees. I used to wear them all splattered with paint because I was an artist. And now they're all splattered with paint to be sold. Interesting. because they're beautiful. So our life is full of stains, but if we understand what that means, that we go through various difficulties in our life and come out in one way or another, that adds to our resume. That adds to our... the beauty of the clothes. So, he says, we extend this naturally, and we naturally have precepts in the study of how to observe these precepts.

[08:48]

This posture of zazen is not just the kind of training, but it is the actual way of transmitting Buddha's teaching to us. So, zazen is how The teaching is transmitted. There are lectures and there's books and all that. But the actual transmission of the teaching is through Zazen. That's why we do this. And at some point you realize that this is so. This teaching teaches us the reality of non-duality. Because we can't sit this way unless we reconcile those opposites. When the opposites are reconciled, you can sit very easily, even though you have problems. It's always a problem. He says, words by themselves are not good enough to actualize this teaching, so it is transmitted through activity or human relationship.

[10:02]

So precepts are about relationship. basically. In addition to precepts, we have the relationship between teacher and disciple. The disciple must choose a teacher, the teacher, and then the teacher will accept the disciple. Although sometimes a teacher may recommend another teacher. Between teachers, there should not be any conflict. So if a teacher thinks another is more qualified, he may recommend him or her. So Yeah, sometimes a teacher will recommend another teacher. When a teacher recommends another teacher, or when a student says, I want to practice with another teacher, the other teacher is obligated to talk to the person, to the other teacher, who the student is leaving.

[11:05]

and get permission to receive this other student. And that's the protocol between teachers. So, once you become a disciple, you should devote yourself to studying the Way. At first, as a disciple, You may wish to practice with a teacher, not because you want to study Buddhism, but for some other reason. I don't know what that other reason is. Maybe you feel, you know, you dislike this guy, or this woman, and you want to have a relationship. Still, it doesn't matter which way you do that. If you devote yourself completely to your teacher, you will understand. You will be your teacher's disciple, and you can transmit our way, eventually. But actually, you know, We're always transmitting our way, whether you're a teacher or not.

[12:11]

Every one of us is teaching something. We're all teaching something. Best if we don't know that that's what we're doing. If you think, oh, I'm teaching something, then it's a little bit tainted. But how we teach is through our activity. be through our being our presence and we don't know that we're teaching so we teach something beneficial and we also teach something that's not so beneficial sometimes but we're always influencing in Tassajara everything we do is has an effect on everybody else and whatever it is the way we are and what we do has an effect on everybody. So when people form a romantic relationship, that has a big effect on the community.

[13:20]

It doesn't destroy the community, but it has an effect. And when there's a breakup, that also has an effect. So we try to be very careful about how we form that kind of relationship. I'll talk about that a little later. The relationship between teacher and disciple is very important. And at the same time, it is difficult for both teacher and disciple to be teacher and disciple in this true sense. So they should both make their best effort. Suzuki Roshi talked about... Who he thought was his teacher actually wasn't his teacher. And later he realized who his teacher was. So that's interesting. Sometimes we don't really know. We may be studying with a teacher, but someone else maybe is their most significant teacher.

[14:27]

Teacher and disciple practice various rituals together. Rituals are more than just training. Through rituals, we communicate and transmit the teaching in a true sense. But we put emphasis on selflessness. When we practice together, we forget our own practice. It is each individual's practice, yet it is also others' practice. For instance, when we practice chanting, we say, recite the sutra with your ears. Then with our ears, we listen to others. Well, with our mouths, we practice our own practice. So here we have complete egolessness in its true sense. And then he says, if you say, I want to be egoless, that's ego. Sorry. But practicing with your ears. I remember he put up a sign at Sokoji Temple. During the beginning of Sashin, he said,

[15:35]

chant with your ears. Because often we're just doing our own thing and we don't listen to each other. I have a really hard time memorizing things. I always feel a little trepidious when I'm supposed to memorize something and recite it. It's always been so. When I was a little kid, I think I was in about the third grade, and we had a play. And the play was The children, each one was a different country. And one person was the world. And I was the world. I said, I want to be the world. And so, but when it came out, I couldn't remember my lines. They're very embarrassing. I think I'm probably still suffering from that one. We used to just, our liturgy used to be very simple.

[16:39]

You know, the Buddhists and ancestors were just the male Buddhists and ancestors up to Dogen. And then we added all the ancestors, Japanese ancestors after Dogen. And then we added all the women ancestors after that. And I know the ancestors up to Dogen very well. No problem. But after that, it's like, you know, so... When I read them, I can do that. That's nice. And so I'm familiar with them that way. But what I've decided here is that I'm just going to listen and see if I can listen and recite at the same time by listening. And that works very well, actually. It really makes me listen hard so that I can chant the name at the same time I'm listening hard. for it. You might try that sometime. And today during the women ancestors, sometimes I follow Greg because he has a really strong voice, but I was following the women's voices today and it's much easier to chant the women's ancestry listening to the women's voices because they're more precise in some way, very precise.

[18:02]

they pronounce their S's more clearly. The Shuso has a beautiful voice when she chants the meal, Gata. She pronounces S's. And it's so beautiful. It's just like... It's a Chinese accent. It's a Chinese accent, yeah. When you have to learn another language, then you are very careful to pronounce the S's and cross the T's. And so it makes it very special and beautiful. And it's like, you know what glee is? Glee is, it's an Irish word, of course. It comes from the dancing of the light on the waves. So it makes me very gleeful to listen to her do that. So, he says, egoless does not mean to give up your own individual practice.

[19:11]

I can breathe a sigh of relief. The true egoless has forgotten egolessness. As long as you believe my practice is egoless, this means you stick to ego because you stick to giving up self-centered practice. When you practice your own practice together with others, the true egolessness happens. That egolessness is not just egolessness. It also includes ego practice. But at the same time, it is the practice of emptiness, egolessness, that is beyond ego or egolessness. Do you understand? It's beyond ego and egolessness because it's not dualistic. Ego, egoless, that's duality. Enlightenment, delusion. That's duality. The enlightenment that people are striving for is that enlightenment is the opposite of delusion.

[20:14]

And that's just deluded enlightenment. Enlightenment is beyond enlightenment and delusion. Egolessness is beyond ego and non-ego. We all have ego. Ego is... is what our self is, actually. And so we can't operate without it. So we have to be able to use it. You can't eliminate it. Even though you read the book, even though the book says, cut off the ego, you can cut it off, but it's medusic. It grows another head. You can't cut it off. you have to come to terms with it. Ego has to have its boss.

[21:15]

So just offer your ego up and bite like that. But he says, when you practice your own practice together with others, then true ego-lessness happens. In other words, you put in your lot with everyone else. And we don't practice for ourselves. Someone said... Do we practice for others? I think we're supposed to practice for others, but actually we don't practice for the sake of others. We practice with others, not for others.

[22:19]

We're practicing with everyone, not for everyone. We just practice for the sake of practice. We don't practice for my sake. We don't practice for your sake. We just practice for the sake of practice. then the practice takes care of you and the practice takes care of me. When we give up to the practice, or give in to the practice, or however you want to say it, then practice takes care of everything. And everybody's benefited and everyone is put at ease. So he says, this also is true in the observation of precepts. If you try to observe the precepts, that is not true observation of precepts.

[23:23]

When you observe the precepts without trying to observe the precepts, that is true observation of the precepts. Our inmost nature can help us. When we understand the precepts, as an expression of our inmost nature, that is the way as it is. Then there are no precepts. When we are expressing our inmost nature, no precepts are necessary, so we're not observing the precepts. On the other hand, we also have the opposite nature, so we want to observe our precepts. We feel that the necessity of observing the precepts will help us. And when we understand the precepts in this negative or prohibitory sense, that is also the blossoming of our true nature. So we have a choice of how to observe precepts, one negative, the other positive.

[24:26]

Also, when we do not feel that we can observe all the precepts, then we can choose the ones we feel that we can work with. So this is interesting, you know, statement. Precepts are on three different levels. The so-called prohibitory precepts are ten. They were reduced to ten. In India, of course, the monks had 350 precepts, or 250 precepts, depending on their caste. And the women had 100 more, many, many precepts. And after Shakyamuni, you know, when Shakyamuni was practicing, practice was very simple.

[25:29]

If someone wanted to be ordained, he said, follow me. And that was it. And then out of the sky dropped a okesa. And as people, you know, the monks would bring him problems. And when they brought him a problem, they'd say, you know, so-and-so is doing this, and should we do that? And he'd say, well, let's make a precept out of that. So the monks shouldn't do these things. The monks should do those things. And precepts came about kind of naturally through behavioral problems. But he didn't set out a big list of prohibitory precepts in the beginning. But as the sangha matured, the precepts would come up naturally. So when Shakyamuni died, who passed away, whatever, the Sangha was left with how to deal with the practice.

[26:35]

And so they collected a lot of information and made a list of precepts, 250 or 300, whatever it is, and the monks would practice those precepts as their practice in order to have a pure practice. That's the Vinaya. And when Buddhism came to Japan through China, they reduced the precepts to 16. Those are the 16 precepts that we observe. It's too cumbersome to have 350 precepts and to follow them as rules. and the minor precepts only needed to be there locally.

[27:45]

So there's a whole bunch of local precepts which only applied to India, like eating rice with your hands and not stuffing it in your mouth and stuff like that. But there was a precept for everything. And of course, Dogen also had a precept for everything in the Shingi. When you read Dogen's Shingi, it's like everything has a way of being done. When Suzuki Roshi came to America, he didn't bring all that with him. What he really liked about America was our innocence, and he liked the hippies because they were not just following the customs. They were kind of in revolt against the customs of society, and he felt that they were adaptable to the Dharma because they were looking for something real.

[28:53]

And he did not impose a lot of rules. He didn't like rules, actually. And the Vinaya of Zen Center arose through questions. Shall we do this? Shall we do that? How about this? In the beginning, it was a little chaotic. At the beginning of Tassajara, people were more promiscuous and so forth. He didn't say you shouldn't do this and he didn't say you shouldn't do that. But he watched and observed us. to see what we were actually doing and who we really were. He wanted to find out who we really were. The only way he could find out who we really were was to see how we were acting. And so he didn't say, don't do this and don't do that. He just observed how we were. And little by little, Zen Center became more, what would I call it? Precept. Preceptive.

[29:56]

Preceptive. Precept-bound. But still, you know, there are things that will not be tolerated in any other country except Europe. About behavior. For instance, I'll get to this. Perhaps precepts are not rules set up by someone, but they are. Since our life is the expression of our true nature, if something is wrong with that expression, the Buddha will say that it is not the way. then you will have precepts. The actual event or fact is first, not the rules.

[31:00]

So it is the nature of precepts that we have a chance to choose our precepts. If you go one way, you will have these precepts. If you go another way, you will have these other precepts. So whether you go this way or that way is up to you. So that's interesting. We create our own precepts. And Tsukiroshi said, you know, in America you should create your own precepts according to your circumstances, your culture, the times, and so forth. He didn't try to impose anything like that on us. But he was always very careful about what he did. And his example, you know, set a tone for the precepts. He was brought into America... to be the priest of the Sokoji Temple, the Japanese congregation. And so he had to conform to Japanese culture.

[32:03]

Japanese culture, again, talking about sex, there's a different attitude toward sex, which is not so, well, I don't know how to explain it, but behavior should be, you know, very strict. At the same time, in Japan, they have all these love hotels, right? So you have strictness on the one side and looseness on the other. And it's all condoned. But the Japanese were looking at us and they'd say, oh, those Americans, you know. They're all having sex with each other and all this and so forth. So Suzuki Roshi was caught in between those two things. Japanese cultural norms and America's cultural un-norms, whatever you want to call it. And it was the beginning of the sexual revolution.

[33:06]

In the beginning, everybody was having sex and all that. But Suzuki Roshi didn't say you shouldn't do that. He said you should be very careful about how you relate to each other. Be very careful how you relate to each other because when you take advantage of each other, you hurt each other and you damage the ambience of the sangha. So you should be careful about how you express your desire and your ego. He made this compromise that if you have a relationship, this is the way it was then, if you have this relationship and you really want to have a relationship, you should call yourself married, even though you're not married.

[34:09]

You should act as if you're married so that people understand what the relationship is. It kind of satisfied the Japanese in some way. But you should not be promiscuous. It's a real relationship. When men and women are gay people, in those days, that wasn't in the equation. But when opposite sexes are... or same-sexes are attracted to each other, it should be, and there's a relationship, it should be a serious relationship. That's the way he, but he never condemned anybody or criticized people for having a relationship. Most relationships, of course, went underground, but underground, you know, like you see these molehills, you know?

[35:15]

These little mountains are called molehills. We know that something's going on under there, right? So sex is kind of pushed underground. People say, what do I do about it? Can you tell me what I should do about this? I say, I don't know what you should do about it. You have to figure it out for yourself. I could say a lot of things, don't do this. But, you know, what does that mean? Yes, I will not do this. But you end up doing it. I did it myself. And I remember Suzuki Roshi once, I'll tell you the story. Because I had a, you know, a relationship. It was a, tentative relationship and I knew that it was a tentative relationship but he knew about it and this was before this was about 1969 or something 70 before I went to Tassara to be Shuso I was Shuso in 1970 so with Tatsugami Roshi so he took

[36:45]

me into the... Sokoji was this beautiful zendo we had, and just kind of square and beautiful, big, enough for everybody. And Chino-sensei was his assistant at that time. And Chino-sensei... These are goza mats, like underneath the bowing mat, only more simple. And Chino-sensei laid out a row of... goza mats that went all the way across the zendo. And Suzuki Roshi had me sit down at one end, and he sat down at the other end. And there was this huge space in between us. And he said, when you go to Tassajara, no, he said, this is before I was ordained. That's right. He says, when I ordain you, I don't want you to have any any sexual relationship for one year.

[37:49]

And I said, okay. And we both got up and left. That was it. But... This lady came over with a bottle of champagne. Anyway... So, I met him in the hall at Pace Street, and he said, he smiled. He knew about this. And I thought, what's he going to say about this? He says, when you go to Tasahara to be Shuso, I want you to behave yourself, or something like that. I don't remember exactly, but it was like, he didn't criticize me, he didn't... There was no judgment. He knew what had happened. He knew why. He knew human nature. He wasn't going to condemn human nature.

[38:56]

And he gave me this gift of being Shusuk with Tatsugami Roshi. So that's kind of what his attitude was like. He just, you know, he didn't He wasn't being critical, but he wanted people to act appropriately. He wanted us to act appropriately out of our own volition, not because he was ordering us to do something. So Suzuki Roshi's attitude toward precepts is, the precepts should come from you. There are the written precepts, which he called the dead precepts. Not that they're really dead, but they have a purpose. But the real living precept is the bodhisattva precept. There are three aspects of precepts. One is the written precepts by rote. Don't do this, don't do that.

[40:00]

And then there's the one-mind precepts. You can't do anything right or wrong. Things are just the way they are. And that in between is the bodhisattva precepts. So you have realization that things are just as they are. And you also have the realization that there are ways to act in the world to create harmony. And in between is what I call improvisation. That's the bodhisattva precepts. Knowing those other two, knowing those two extremes, you have to act according to the way things are going. And the precepts are coming from you, from your intention. And in a word, he says, precepts is compassion. If you are always raising a compassionate mind in every encounter, then the precepts are there.

[41:09]

That's called improvising. Because we don't know how things are going to turn out. We don't know what's going to happen. And so in order to act, we act on the spirit of the moment. But we have some idea about how to do that. He says, at first, you should depend on your teacher.

[42:19]

This is the best way. And you begin following the prohibitory precepts. When you become familiar with our way, you will have a more positive observation in the precepts or more natural or internal. So he says, how a teacher points out the student's mistake is very important. If a teacher thinks that the student did a mistake, made a mistake, He is not a true teacher. It may be a mistake, but on the other hand, it is an expression of the student's true nature. When we understand this, we have the respect for our student's true nature, and we will be careful how we point out our mistakes. So, this is taking into consideration that... Each, everyone is Buddha as well as ordinary.

[43:20]

And so this teacher addresses the student as Buddha, even though this Buddha makes a mistake. Buddha is always making a lot of mistakes. So we treat the mistakes as Buddha's mistake. And so we still have respect for the student, even though there's a mistake. This is very important. In the scriptures, five points are made about how to be careful. One is that the teacher has to choose his opportunity and not point out the student's mistake in front of many people. You don't want to embarrass people. If possible, the teacher points out the mistake personally in an appropriate time in space, place. Secondly, the teacher is reminded to be truthful, which means that the teacher does not point out his disciple's mistake just because he thinks that it's a mistake.

[44:31]

When the teacher understands what the disciple did, why the disciple did so, then he can be truthful. So there's reacting and responding. Reacting means that we immediately make some judgment and react to something that happens. But actually, to step back and respond is to come from a different place. Because when we react, we become caught by our reaction. Then we can't really have the correct relationship because we're caught by ourself. So the teacher has to step back and see what situation, what's the source of the problem before making any judgment.

[45:34]

The other thing is that when somebody comes to the teacher and complains about somebody else, teachers should never take that as the truth. You should always listen to the other side so that you get two versions. Somebody will come and say, you know, so-and-so did this and that, and they're so convincing that you think, oh, that dirty rat. And then the other person comes to you and tells their story, and you think, oh, my God, that dirty rat. You always have to hear two sides, both sides of the story before you make any... judgments at all. So this is really important because when somebody says something about somebody else, no matter how you think about that person, it creates some kind of schism. It creates something in your mind, even though you know it's not so. It puts a doubt in your mind.

[46:37]

So we have to be very careful how we talk about other people. So the third reminder is is for the teacher to be gentle and calm and speak in a low voice rather than shouting. This is something very delicate, like truthfulness. But here the scripture puts emphasis on having a calm, gentle attitude when talking about someone's mistake. So, you know, if we become too forceful, we put somebody on the defensive. And when they're on the defensive, You have to strike back or cow, cower. So that's very bad to put someone in that position. And then, of course, nothing but a fight can ensue. Or the person will keep something inside and be grumbling all the time without expressing themselves.

[47:44]

That's even worse. So we see people... walking around grumbling, grumbling, grumbling, until they have to do something radical to express themselves. So we shouldn't put people in a position to be on the defensive. Whispering is really good, soft speaking. This is how you deal with it. Dogs speak very gently, very kindly, very gently, and they respond. because they love you rather than fear you so you can control people by fear or you can manage things through loving so that should always be sometimes you have to be very forceful absolutely sometimes the situation calls for being very forceful but you shouldn't be attached to that forceful way

[48:48]

Some people don't run until, don't move until they feel the whip. But the whip should be used sparingly. The fourth one is that the teacher gives advice or points out the disciple's mistake solely for the sake of helping him or her and does not do so just to get something off his chest. Here the teacher is very careful noticing that what the student is making some excuse for what he did, if the student is making some excuse for what he did, or when the student is not serious enough, then the teacher should ignore him until she becomes more serious. Even though we give advice only for the sake of helping the student, still this does not mean that she always... To always be easy with a student. Sometimes we should be very rough with a student or we cannot help her in a true sense.

[49:50]

I keep changing. So, appropriate response. This is just about appropriate response. This is how we keep the presets. What is the appropriate response here? That's improvisation. You don't know it. There's no rule about how you're going to do this. There's no rule about how to respond to somebody in any situation. So you think compassion. Compassion is at the bottom of it. And then that helps you to think about it. Sometimes people think, or students, we talk about how we should take care of the students and not hurt their feelings. But often the students don't realize how they're hurting the teacher's feelings. You mean teachers have feelings? And we hurt them? If a teacher was... You cannot be a teacher if you are vulnerable to your feelings being hurt.

[51:02]

Even though they're hurt. You can't... That cannot be... you can't let that affect you, even if it affects you. You can't let that influence you with students, even though it's there. No matter how much the teacher's feelings are hurt, the teacher still has compassion for the student and acts in a way that's not reactive. So the last point, the last one is to point out the student's mistake with compassion, which means that the teacher is not just the teacher, but also the disciple's friend. As a friend, the teacher points out some problem or gives some advice.

[52:09]

So this is different than the therapist. The therapist is not the student's or the client's friend, and good reason. But in this situation, the teachers and students are practicing together all the time. There has to be some distance between the teacher and the student, but at the same time, there are times when the teacher is the student's friend. Sometimes the teacher is the student's mother or father or advisor or whatever. There are all these different aspects. But at the same time, there has to be separation. And as Suzuki once said, in order to play ball, you have to have some distance. And if the teacher is too much of the student's friend, then the student may not understand the distance or respect the distance.

[53:16]

but then there has to be separation. So it's not so easy to be a teacher or to be a student, and we cannot rely on anything, even the precepts. We have to make our utmost effort to help each other, and we do not observe our precepts just for the sake of precepts or practice rituals, just for the perfection of rituals. We are studying how to express our true nature. So... Remember, we don't practice precepts just for the sake of perfecting precepts. I remember one time, when we had the zendo, where the student eating area is, before it burned down, the old bar.

[54:22]

And we had a huge makugyo about the size of the altar there. And we got it from Japan. And I was doing the makugyo one time. And as I was hitting the makugyo, there was a spider, and it was crawling on the makugyo. And as I was beating the makugyo, the intensity of the sound was bringing the spider into the center of the makugyo. And the spider was going da-da-da. And I don't think I smashed it. I don't know what I did. But I asked Suzuki Roshi a question. It was in Shosan or something. And I said, what should I do in a case like that? And he said, well, if necessary, stop the Mikugyo. And it's okay if everything is thrown into chaos.

[55:24]

No problem. We don't have to stick to something. It's better to be compassionate about a spider than to think that we have to continue our chant in order to get to the end. That's not as important as saving the spider. So just throw everything in. Even if everything goes into chaos, it's okay. So we should not be attached to what we're doing, actually. This is great, what we're doing, but if need be, forget it. Everything will still be okay. So, that's a little bit...

[56:28]

Teacher and student. Anybody have a question? Speak up, please. The student has to do what? It's best. It's best. The closer contact you have with the teacher, the better. Okay, if it's not possible, then you don't do it. Well, let me say, I'll say something about that, okay? Supposing you're in Cincinnati and your teacher's in New York. I want you in Cincinnati. I'll use a different... place, Chicago.

[57:30]

You're in Chicago, and your teacher's in New York, right? So you go to the Chicago Zendo. There is one. Go to the Zendo in Chicago and practice with that teacher, even though your teacher's in New York. So you find somebody to practice with, another teacher. And you say, so-and-so is my teacher, but I'd like to practice here with you. And the teacher will go, oh, fine. You can do that. I won't try to lure you away from your teacher, but you can practice here. And you accept that person as your teacher for the time. That's what happens when you go to Tassahara. You may have a teacher in Chicago, but when you come to Tassahara, the teachers here are your teacher. And you should respond and relate to the teachers here as your teacher while you're here. Otherwise, you have a problem. When I send my students here to practice, and they should relate to the teachers here as their teacher while they're here.

[58:42]

And they're growing up here. They're becoming teachers themselves. They are teachers themselves. That's the way we do it. We shouldn't be so attached to this person as my teacher. We should learn, you know, give... The student makes the teacher. We think, you know, it's also true that the teacher makes the student, but the student makes the teacher. So you can help somebody to be a teacher by being a student. That's your task. You shouldn't, well, my teacher's in New York, you know, so I'll be here, but I'm not going to, you know, talk to these other teachers because they're not my teacher. I'm not criticizing you. But, yeah, it's a great opportunity. My feeling about Zen Center is there are all these great, wonderful teachers in Tassahara.

[59:46]

I mean, in Zen Center. And we should practice with all of them. That's the advantage of this practice, is that there are all these teachers and... Well, I like this one. I don't like this one. It's not about liking and disliking. It's about relating. When you relate, then you give up your... That's how you give up your ego, is by relating. If you're not relating when you're here, it's egotistical practice. It's not practice. Practice here is relating. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, not necessarily. Yes, we do. But when we have ordination, usually we have an ordination committee, so to speak.

[60:49]

Even though if you have lay ordination, that's simply ordination into the... into the dharma and then you can choose any teacher you want unless you feel well this is my teacher and i'm doing lay ordination with this teacher and my teacher but it's not necessarily so and when you have priest ordination then the teacher is taking care of the student as a priest and uh but even so your true teacher can be somebody else So we do this for each other, you know. If I were to ordain you as a priest, you wouldn't necessarily be my student. Because I know you have a teacher somewhere in New York. But I'm doing this for you and for your teacher as well. And then, you know, at some point you go back to your teacher and study with that teacher.

[61:55]

So, you know, it's not rigidly this way or that way. It's very flexible. We're going to have an ordination ceremony here. A lay ordination ceremony on the first. Two people are going to be ordained. And one of them is not my student. He has another student, another priest who is his teacher. He feels is his teacher. And the teacher feels he's a student. I mean, the other priest feels he's a student. And that priest is my disciple. So I'm doing this for my disciple, who can't do it yet because he doesn't have Dharma transmission. So we're doing it together. And that's very nice. It's very sweet. But I'm not saying that I'm doing this because this person is my student. I'm doing it because my student is his teacher.

[63:11]

Do you get that? Yeah. Yeah. It's very difficult. It depends on, you know, our circumstances isolate us sometimes. You don't have a teacher for several hundred months, but you may have somebody, you know, if you go to various places to practice, like Sashin or weekend or something, you can find someone who can be a teacher. We don't necessarily have to have our true teacher being a teacher. A true teacher is someone who gives you dharma transmission. But then you have many different teachers. I had about six or seven teachers, actually.

[64:16]

And I still have a lot of teachers. They're not necessarily officially teachers, but they're teachers. teacher is like I don't like the word teacher teacher is inaccurate it's more like mentor someone who is your advocate and who helps you to encourages your practice so any place you go I think where you practice if there's a decent teacher a decent person there can encourage your practice. That's really all you need is someone to encourage your practice and to, you know, which I call a mentor. But I think if you want to, you can find that. Especially now, you know, there's so many places and so many so-called teachers, whether they're, how good they are or not.

[65:29]

You know, anybody can be a kind of teacher if you stick with what you really know and not try to, you know, go beyond what you know. So each one of us is a kind of teacher in that sense. You can teach Zazen. If you practice Zazen and you know Zazen, you can teach that. But when you try to teach other things, you know, it may be too above your head. But if you just stay with where you are, you can teach something. And when you teach something, then you have to learn something. The nice thing about teaching is that you have to learn something when you teach. If when you teach something, you realize there's something missing, and then you work to see what that is and improve yourself. your practice in that way, that helps everybody.

[66:31]

So we're all teaching each other. Sangha is teaching each other. Without the Sangha, it's really hard because the teaching comes up through the Sangha. The teacher directs things in a way and presents things, but the Sangha the Dharma is absorbed through the Sangha and then expressed through the Sangha. And we learn from each other all the time. Every time we sit tazan here together, something is, you know, we're reinforcing that understanding. And the way we relate to each other, feed each other, and cook for each other, it's all great, you know. It's all, this is how we do it. But if you don't have a teacher in a honey's mouth, find somebody who was in 150. Or, you know, make an effort to go someplace, even just to touch, you know.

[67:38]

And that touching will help. That's my... He's turning the topic. The interaction when somebody is angry, or maybe the person is angry, and you either strike back or you cower and you grumble, what is the appropriate response? Composure. Where is my composure? That's the appropriate response is, where is my composure? And from your composure comes the appropriate response. If your response comes from your shakiness or if your response comes from your anger, if your response comes from your resentment, it's not the appropriate response.

[68:45]

The appropriate response comes from your composure, your settledness and your composure self. And then respond. I can't tell you what that response is going to be because I don't know what the thing is. And the key is, I don't know. I don't know brings you to composure. And then I don't know opens your mind because there's nothing blocking. And then your true nature presents something to your surprise. That's what Suzuki Yoshi is talking about. Your true nature will give the appropriate response. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge and this is made possible by the donations we receive.

[69:49]

Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[69:57]

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