This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. It's my privilege, my honor, and my pleasure to introduce Brother David Stangevast, sometimes known as a Zen addict to Brother David had been a Benedictine monk for over five decades. And then I thought, well, maybe I should introduce him as a well-known Kasahara dishwasher. Brother David practiced here in the 60s. And most of the comments I've heard about him, the lore is that he was an excellent dishwasher. Which in Zen circles is hybrid.

[01:03]

This evening we would like to talk. Actually, mostly we like to listen. We like to listen to you and respond. So we want to talk very briefly because we have limited time. And life works better in brevity than poems. This poem is by Mary Oliver called Mindful. Every day. I hear and I see something that more or less kills me with the light, that leaves me like a needle in a haystack of light. It is what I was going for, to look, to listen, to lose myself inside this self-world, to instruct myself over and over in joy. and acclamation. Nor am I talking about the exceptional, the fearful, the dreadful, the very extravagant, but of the ordinary, the common, the drive, the daily presentations.

[02:12]

Oh, good scholar, I say to myself, how can you help but grow wise with such teachings as these? The untrimmable light of the world, the oceans shine The prayers, they're made, I've grasped. Some of the words and phrases and ideas that we've been using this week. But this entry into the moment is Mary Oliver. So exquisitely describe this for me for the delight and joy of the was where we step out of the limitations, preoccupations, the pride and prejudice of the concerns of our small self. And reconnect, rediscover the heritage, the potential, the original nature of our being.

[03:22]

And what would be talking about how this innate quality. This innate quality is the guiding principle of spiritual practice. Out of it grows the doctrine, out of this grows the code of morals and conduct, out of this grows the ritual and the celebration that enacts and celebrates this way of being. These are, this experience, these experiences of original being are what allowed, what expressed the flowering of Buddhist realization and that of Christ. Thank you, Paul.

[04:23]

You're welcome. what Paul says, is so common to all monastic traditions, and therefore very much also to our own Benedictine monastic tradition. And it's defined in the everyday, as Mary Oliver said, in the draft, in the everyday reality, the ultimate. Paul referred to the dish washing here in the 60s and I remember at that time it was very new so everything was new we had only had one practice period before that and so we were still washing the dishes below the old center which is now the students dying room tiny areas that was covered in this descendo.

[05:27]

And behind it, you had the dish washing. And then when I left at the end of the practice period, they said, it might be helpful if you leave for your successor some instructions where to put things and little tricks like putting vinegar in the water with which you rinse the glasses so they get a little more shiny and so forth. And I did that, and then at the end, I said, and the patriarch of Western monks, St. Benedict, says that every pot and pan in the monastery should be handled like the sacred vessels of the ark. Everybody liked that very much. Three weeks later, I was on the East Coast, and not even in a Buddhist monastery, but in a And I was introduced to Mrs. Brother David. Oh, are you Brother David the Dishwasher? And that's why, oh, we have this saying of St.

[06:33]

Benedict over our face. But in a long way, it's always the cocky. And then it's really, in a way, what we have been talking about all week, that... In some special moments in your life, which we call peak moments or mystic moments, you really see the universe as a grain of sand, as Blake says. But that comes spontaneously to you, that is a moment of awakening, and if you make the best possible use of those moments, then every grain of salt will be for you a window through which you can see the universe. Every drop of water will be a revelation for you. So we can easily train ourselves for that by cultivating what was most

[07:48]

important in those thick moments, and that is that for a moment we lived in the now. And anything that helped us live in the now will bring us back into that position from which we can really see what it's all about and see the most sacred things in life in a simple end of day. activities and things and everyone we meet. And every practice has this for its goal, to bring us to the moment, to the now. And when we are in the now, we are in that self, not just out in the ego, but in the great self that we all share, that one self that we all share. And different traditions have different names for it. A Buddhist tradition calls it the Buddha nature.

[08:51]

A Christian tradition calls it Christ in us. Other traditions have other names, but the name doesn't matter at all. What matters is that we practice and find ourselves there and find ourselves united. And that is important for each one of us because it's the way to joy and to that happiness that doesn't depend on what happens. But it is even more important for the world because in a world that is so torn and so at odds with itself, as our world is, we need anything that can tie us together and unite us with one another. And the deepest unity and community that we have is in the self, whatever they call it, that we access whenever we come into the now. Is that enough for an introduction?

[09:52]

That was wonderful, thank you. Questions? I'm very curious about religions getting together and having crossed you know, cultural cross-religion dialogue. And I find myself in the parts of Christianity, parts of Buddhism, parts of Hinduism that are just very inspiring to me. In the modern age, there's a lot of kind of not really belonging to a religion or saying that you're a Buddhist or a Christian, but just taking from the different traditions as you kind of see it be relevant. Can you talk a little bit about whether there's more value in making a choice and going deeper into a specific path, or to kind of keep yourself open to the different paths that are in front of you?

[10:55]

Well, of course, you should just do whatever you want, do whatever it towards you, you should move on. Yes, of course. That's what you wanted me to hear, right? When we hear that comment, we all know. No, we know that doesn't work. Something in us, whether we've experienced it directly or intuitively, we know. That which brings forth excellence is that which has been fully engaged. And it's wonderful that all the traditions uphold it, celebrate, and speak of it. But each one of us has the challenge of discovering and realizing for ourselves through this full committed involvement

[12:09]

a practice that helped us realize it. Now that's the wonderful thing that it doesn't matter where you practice and what tradition you practice, but the practice sooner or later gets tough. And that's where it begins. Kierkegaard, a Danish philosopher in the 19th century, has a wonderful... essay that has, I think, the longest title of any essay that I've come across. There is a saying in the New Testament, narrow is the path. Narrow is the path that leads to life. Broad is the path that leads to death. Narrow is the path that leads to spiritual life. And Kierkegaard's title for this essay is about the joy of that it is not the path that is narrow, but the narrowness that is the path.

[13:12]

About the joy that it is not the path that is narrow, but the narrowness that is the path. So when it gets tough, then you know you're on the path. That's when it begins. Before that, you're not so sure. But in various thought, it doesn't make too much difference. Swami Satchidananda used to say, When you start digging and you don't hit water, don't dig somewhere else, because you'll have to dig the same distance until you come... But where you start digging, keep on digging. Somewhere down there is the water, and you save yourself a lot of problems if you keep digging in the same place until you get down there. Too many different forms. But about this unity... We had a little trick in it that we developed during our workshop together.

[14:16]

And we said, in the peak moments, we say, this is it. This is it. And it sounds as if we have been going around waiting for something. And when that moment comes to a rate, see the universe in a grain of salt and sand, and then they say, this is it. And in this little, this is it, is already the whole broadness of the different traditions, because the Western traditions, the Alamedic traditions, as they're calling them, because they all have the Alamedic, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Alamedic, it's a very important word, and I'll say some people later, they always emphasize the this. To overcome, this is it. And then somebody says, this is it. This is it.

[15:19]

Before you know it, they are fighting, this is it. And that's why it's typically that in the West you have all these differences between the many different spiritual traditions because they put the focus emphasis on this is it. And the Buddhists come around and say, this is it. This is also it. And this is also just one it under the wall. And it's very alienated. It's very peaceful. In other words, each it is an expression of nothing. John Hage actually has a poem that says... When you let it, it supports itself. You don't have to. Each something is a celebration of the nothing that supports it. There it is. And so this is the it that underlies all and is this and this and this.

[16:23]

And then come the Hindus and they say, well... This is it, and this is it. And if you emphasize the is, you have to emphasize the understanding. That's the important thing. Yoga is understanding. Yoga yokes together like a yoga box. The word, this, [...] and the silence that comes to word in this, this, this word. And by understanding you so deeply and listening to the word that it leads you into the silence out of which it comes, and that process is the understanding. Yoga is, in its broadest sense, this practice by which you get into this understanding. So, in this little sentence, this is it, you have a little helpful expression that, in a sense, they always say the same, but when you come to see closer, it is very, very different what they emphasize.

[17:25]

according to your needs and to your interests and your tastes, you pick one of those, or maybe even another one, because the primordial traditions, the Native Americans and the Australian Aborigines, they have still almost a matrix out of which these other traditions grew. But then when it comes to practicing, then you have to stick with it. Same to me. A couple of days ago, I was hammering for my work. I was hammering for a long time. And I thought about what you were saying better, David, about engaging in any activity that you're doing. Engaging in a wholeheartedly. and through the gate in a full varsity and bringing this love of the universe to you.

[18:25]

And I see things about this tonight. It was so strange and I felt the love of the universe. And then I realized I was Henry in the shade with the sound of the river beside me as a student at Tosahara with the birds. in the tree and I just was really idyllic scene and what if I was working in a sweatshop somewhere for hours every day for my family in a different part of the world or a different era how could I possibly bring that focus and that joy through me in something that didn't mean anything to me or was just in horrible condition. And I wonder what... As you were saying that, I was thinking of Curtin-Darrowing.

[19:32]

Maybe it's not as we politically correct him to say. It's not all of a sudden like you're endorsing or advocating the injustice of a sweatshop. But, you know, when we see the peoples of the world, it's often the people have the most privilege. We have the most material wealth that plunders most. So in the material world, which you say, well, this is utterly inappropriate.

[20:38]

This is highly destructive. This is a set of completely... This is an expression of complete disadvantage. In a spiritual sentence, different values come into play. And this is important for us to recognize. And as I said, not to advocate and endorse or in any way support the social injustice of soar child. It's just this thing. Not to be like material... Did I hear behind your question somehow, here it's so wonderful, and maybe I should be somewhere else instead of? Was that underlying your question? I'm going to specifically refer you to that, but that is something that I think about a lot and wonder about, like the extent to which

[21:43]

So I should be aware of my privilege and perhaps feel a little to me to step back to my own comfort. In a sense, I think that I have to step back to some of our own comfort. That is our joy. We have less joy. We are so joy. But... We have to know when to engage and when we need to disengage in order to be able to engage quicker. And that is one of the reasons why places like this are so important, that we can come here and disengage from service of that sort and really deepen their practice and deepen their rootedness in the self and then go out and serve in a much deeper and better way.

[22:50]

So both have this justification. And I think each one of us has to know how much time we need to spend in a place of refreshment and practice and without any distractions, and then how strong we are to go to a place that would enhance and much from us. And yeah, we can do it. I've been speaking with people who've been talking to you, Brother David, and I haven't talked with you yet, but Surprisingly enough, your sort of conversations with my friends have impacted me.

[23:51]

You know, it's kind of odd. I feel like I've been thinking a lot more about love and sort of what what What role kind of my small self plays in that? And if there's an effort to be made, it's kind of small kind of small self-levels, or if I should have had in that effort, kind of let, you know, God's love shine through, or, you know, if there's some sort of practice that I can engage my small self with, it's more of love than you think. It seems that many of those questions about law become much easier to answer if we have a clear definition for what we mean by law.

[25:03]

That's difficult because law is a good computing. But this is a working definition that I have found very helpful And it applies to all kinds of love, or cases in which you experience love, that love is a lived yes to belonging. Imagine you can say, to limitless belong. And it's not just saying yes to belong, but limiting this, acting it, becoming a yes to belong. And that, on many different levels, expressed by your little self. How should the big self express it except through the little self? Through the little self express it. The big self is love. The big self is, I guess, in love. And one of the reasons, if you want to put it back there, why we have a little self is that the big self wants to express it in all new ways and in all new forms.

[26:13]

That's what we are all around. to express this nested memory. And we say, yes, yes. Once we know that, well, it's the little self that acts it out. But what acts on is the big self. And it is that yes. And the little self doesn't make a perfect opera. But in the process of making an opera, it discovers the next step beyond the imperfection of that opera, the limitation of that opera. So this is the constant process of unfolding practice. As they continue to practice awareness and mindfulness,

[27:15]

we would continually see self-agendas and issues that we weren't seeing and how they were shaping the effort of our practice. And as we continue to see, there's a continual unfolding. Quite naturally, if we continue our path, in its exactness, it's narrow, but in its realization, it's ever-increasing. You mentioned the perfect offering, and everybody knows those lines, but there were completely people that would be written on the walls that still can't ring. Forget the perfect offering. It's attracting everything. That's where the light comes in. I was in the workshop, but I was wondering if you could give us some highlights

[28:15]

on where you found common ground between Christianity and Zen Buddhism. Did you spend time any time with it on? So at one point, when we drop down to the level of practice, both in its fundamental principles and in the particular expression of how to engage the movement, if nothing but come and drop. You know, that's the remarkable thing. You know, Brother David said, well, I come here and I see the exact same attention to detail and encouragement to do things fully and precisely that I was taught in my own onenesship. And then this principle of oneness, of being alone, of awareness, of mindfulness, And then another place where we find common rhyme was, in the dynamic nature of the expression of this principle of oneness in me, how emotive in it.

[29:41]

The trinity in Christianity and That's the exciting thing, I think, in our dialogue, that it becomes very obvious when it comes to experience and when it comes to practice. And then when we talk, in language of our own different traditions somebody who just listens to that might think we're talking about two completely different realities totally different words and terms and frame of reference and so forth but that convinces me from experience that all the different traditions with all the

[30:45]

paraphernalia and all their wonderful rituals and doctrines and moral codes and everything in those living are just different expressions that sprang up at different times in history from the same matrix, which is that basic human religiosity or spirituality. If you call it spirituality, you're linking it with the term spirit, which means life, breath, and aliveness. It's the same human aliveness on all rivers. We call it religiosity. You're connecting it with the word religio, which means re-tying of broken bonds. And deep down, when we get down there, we come to the matrix in which are these broken bonds between... our big self and our little self, and between one another, and between us and the outer reality, our magnet again, human again.

[31:52]

So whichever term is more convenient for you, but there is a basic human matrix that underlies all these different traditions. And to know that is very helpful, because it will, on the one hand, help you take the tradition lightly, because it's not of ultimate importance, but also really help you treasure it, because it took such a long time to grow and to unfold. So many dedicated people throughout history and throughout the centuries and millennia who contributed to make it what it is. And every little... ritual and every little stanza of a prayer or a sutra has a long history behind it. And if you listen to it, you're in touch with a very vulnerable condition.

[32:56]

So it's both literal and it's not of ultimately importance. When you learn it, you know how to use it, just like a pen that you have to hold firmly, not lightly. If you hold it too lightly, it falls out of your hand. If you hold it too firmly, you can't like it. I feel really affected by writing to what you use around work offering and belonging. And I'm curious about that intersection of those two things, because I think that a lot of or my energy or perhaps my concern about what my practice is, my energy in practice, is trying to understand how to offer myself or how to be offering, maybe.

[33:56]

And then what the receiving on the other side is that I belong to or that offering can belong to. And some of that ties into a little bit what Nora was asking about. serving, or the sort of implication of that. But also, I think, just in a kind of present moment, when we talk with myself, when we talk with myself, when we talk with all beings, where is the belonging? I don't know if that's a clear question or not, but... Give us a clear question. Yesterday, when we wrote that, I asked the group if they wanted to have the big picture into which to feed gratefulness, and they did. So we really spent a long time on this, and at the intersection between offering and belonging.

[35:03]

So the question, what is life all about? That is one of the very few really, really big questions that human beings have asked themselves from the beginning. And they have given an answer to that question from the very beginning. And the answer is given in poetic form because only poetry can carry that much weight of truth. And the poem is a myth. It's a poetic story. And in stories, they tell what they're talking about. And by comparing hundreds of myths and thousands of myths in the whole world, in every part of the world, and for many times different periods of history, you find a general pattern, and Joseph Campbell has written much about it, especially in his book, The Hero with a Thousand Faces. And the myth that answers the question, what is life all about, is called the hero myth.

[36:12]

And it has three phases. The first is the hero leaves the community. I'm simplifying it. I'm watching her dancing in, but the essence is the hero who is out from the community. And the middle part of the hero myth is that the hero now encounters mystery. That is, encounters what we all, because the hero represents each one of us, so encounters what all of us have to deal with us without being able to manage it. And the two unmanageable things in life that everybody has to deal with is love and death. You definitely have the middle of the hero myth always something that has to do with love and death. And the cowboy and the lobster and the shoot-out, that will be an example for it. And when you compare the different myth, you notice that the hero tries to make, the stoically tries to make the hero as dead as possible, because

[37:25]

that is what we experience in life. We really, really die, and dying is not enough. It's men, and all sorts of things that happen there in the middle of that story. And then, behold, he lives. He's dead, but he lives. And not only lives, but brings life back to the community. The serpent closes, he goes back to the community as life bringer. has to go through very difficult tests and eventually through death and comes back as life bringer. So the hypno-denial myth clearly tells her is through death you go into a new life. You have to do that many times in the course of your life. And that is then enacted by the community through offering, to sacrifice.

[38:27]

The first part of the sacrifice corresponds to, well, every sacrifice is defined anywhere in the world. The first part corresponds to that setting aside, the year was being set aside as representative and going out from the community. It's called the offertory, where gifts are representative and are set aside as representative. The second part is where the gifts are made over, consecrated, made over to the realm of mystery. And the third part is where the gifts are then shared by the whole community, again, as life-given. And that is where this sacrifice, or this sacrifice, viewers deliver with, and answers, in a sense, your question, and answers also the question, And what is life all about? The example is, for instance, that the gifts would be brought up as representing life and nature and culture, wine or bread or flowers.

[39:42]

And then in the central part, they're burned. Light and smoke and disappear or... And then what's left is shared with a festive meal. And the example of man I see in Greece, when you see people drink, they will flip their gas a little bit, and a few drops will be set aside, and they have to send all the joy of God to eat and drink, and they fall to the ground, that mysterious realm from which divine grew in the first place. And then they drink. and that's the shared need. So these two of which you spoke, they come together and answer really the question, what is life all about? And so in a methodology of that, it's always, there is no, that there's a reenactment of the experience and then the realization.

[40:50]

we practice connecting to giving attention and receiving experience in our mindfulness and our awareness in our meditation and in that process we experience the intimacy with what the activity the intimacy with the pot the intimacy with the person in that intimacy demonstrates belonging. So the awareness is the offering of belonging to give. And then in tradition, something in us knows, and maybe even on a more cognitive level, we still haven't yet found the terminology, the phrase that always do, it draws us into the practice.

[42:04]

The practice, it rites on something we're doing in a disciplined and dedicated manner because it's a good thing to do, it's something we should do, into something that's more nourishing and salutatory. And we experience the nourishment. We can experience the nourishment even when we don't have a way, a plausible way of articulating it. from one of its members with drawing for a long period of monastic practice? If they do, at all.

[43:11]

Often others' example inspires us. In some way you could say, well, I'm people who are dedicating their lives or fortunes of their lives. Why are all these Zen students here? Couldn't they be out in the world doing good deeds, bringing ethics and morality, making the world hungering and thirsting for people such as them to come forth and be in politics, be in commerce, to be on the streets eating the hungry? And the answer is yes. We'd also... Just in the very activity of the monastic form, in realizing and dedicating to that expression of intimacy, they offer a guiding light, they offer an inspiration. Just the same way that Brother David can come here and do something as trivial and mundane as watching this.

[44:19]

Isn't this a great way to die with someone who's so articulate, so learned, so charismatic? And yet, then the disturber, that within weeks, his humble main activity has already had a life to come. A guy across the nation. And there's a colony of mystery. I mean, who could have predicted that? Who could have known? How could he himself or anyone else have said, well, I will do this. I'll just be behind the window, cold in the dark, washing the dishes. However, in New York, we can't foresee all this, but something of the interconnectedness and the potency of what we do will shine forth in the world.

[45:24]

So this is how we can step back from certain things. It's a very important question, especially for people in the inner community who feel that to all need to be living more in Bahamut's life. And always have a difficult time with the community. In our tradition, the monks used to say, if he's good enough, if he's not good enough to live in community, then he's not good enough to live in the hermit. And if he's good enough to live in community, we need him. So there's no way out. But they can ask themselves, How do people in community nourish one another?

[46:27]

Who are the really nourishing people? And those are the ones that are internally deeply connected. They may not have so much interaction with them, or they may or may not, but what really counts in nourishing the community is the deep inner connection they have with one another. if a person has their finger in every pie and is indispensable on a certain level in the community, but does not have that inner connection, and they are not nourishing for the community. And if somebody has that nourishing, that deep connection with everybody, they're going to be nourishing even if they're far away. And Father Theophane, one of the great turbid snowmouse, with his snowmouse and with a wonderful one. He wrote a little book called The Magic Monastery, which some of you might know. And in it is a story where people ask this hermit who has a cave, and every year he goes deeper and deeper into the cave, and they ask him, what do you find there when you get to the very bottom of your cave?

[47:40]

And the answer is, all the tears of the world. So if you run away from anything, That's not the Hermit's life. And if you find that the bottom of your cave, all the tears of the world, then your presence there will nourish people who have never heard of you, will never hear of you, just as much as if you were in the community interacting with them. That's what really counts. The ordinary community, we realize, is nothing. What really counts is a deep compassion. Could I say what I mean when I speak of yes to belonging?

[48:51]

When a mother's child hurts, And then the mother doesn't have to rip up compassion or anything like that. The mother hurts, because the two are one. And if we live from a place where we feel so one with all, that means we live in the present moment, then we will say yes to one another without having to ask, should I say yes or should I say yes? Maybe or no. The yes flows out of us. It's an unconditional yes. So the motherliness to the world is really what all of us need to cultivate. And we cultivate it by living in the present moment. Does that help? Thank you, Brother David.

[50:07]

Thank you, Paul. Thank you, Brother. And I hope, however, this may register in your mind, in your heart, that you may find within of that which inspires and dies into your practice, however that may be. I mean, I hope it comes across that we're both not trying to hold up any particular tradition, but we're also acknowledging the wisdom and compassion of so many traditions that there are in our world. And that any one of us will only discover that by engaging and giving ourselves to a tradition. So thank you for listening, and please enjoy your time at Tassahara.

[51:09]

Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[51:27]

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