Good morning. So in the Buddha's story of the enlightenment story, the Rohatsu story, we left off after the Buddha had had some delicious, nourishing rice, milk, milk rice, rice pudding, and thrown the golden bowl into the... Naranjara River, and it had floated the opposite way.

[01:04]

And, you know, this image of something flowing, flowing in a different way, flowing in the opposite way, or the wheel turning, not the regular way, but turning or it's turning another way. Renounce worldly affairs and maintain the Buddha Dharma. Worldly affairs are rolling, rolling, rolling on a river in one direction, strong current. And to renounce worldly affairs and maintain the Buddha Dharma, renounce, you know, doesn't mean seclude, hermit, hideaway practice renounces, I see what is my deepest intention, and I let go.

[02:13]

I let go. And I let go because it's not needed anymore. Suzuki Roshi's definition of renunciation is, Not that you give everything away, which is I think our usual understanding, but that you know that it will go away. You know the truth of impermanence and the grasping after things. It really doesn't make sense anymore, so you let go. Even the things that, you know, were lots of fun, maybe. but you actually have lost the taste. So I think this, throwing this golden bowl into the river and having it float upstream to me is turning the Dharma wheel, turning the wheel of life in a new direction against the current.

[03:19]

Shakyamuni gathered a kusa grass. Kusa grass has sharp edges, and you have to gather it very carefully, or you could get like paper cuts, you know, kind of cut. So kushala means wholesome, good, wholesome, from this kusa grass, and akushala, unwholesome, from not carefully, dealing with this vegetable material. So he made this sitting cushion and took an upright position and sat. He just sat immovably, immovable, total engagement in immovable sitting. And he sat so still, Shakyamuni Buddha.

[04:34]

It is said that cobwebs gathered in his eyebrows and a bird's nest was made on top of his head. The bird thought, oh, this is a nice still tree branch. He'll sit here. And reeds kind of grew up through the sitting mat, you know. He just sat. And some stories say for six years, six years of upright sitting is noticeable, still the influence. And other stories are for this story of Rohatsu, you know, seven days. So we'll leave the Buddha sitting there immovably. with cobwebs, spiders very busily making holes and nests on his head.

[05:40]

And there was a story about Yogi and Steve Stuckey during Tangario that a spider made a web from his ear to his shoulder as he sat. That's one of those open cannon stories. Add it to the repertoire. Does it encourage you? By the way, I looked up the tarantulas. Did I tell you about the tarantulas? No? Yes? I told somebody, the tarantulas that we see in September and October, I've been told, are migrating. And I looked it up, and they're not actually migrating, they're moving. They're male. This is... binary spider realm, the male tarantulas have been under the ground for six years, actually, just like Shachimundu. And after six years, their causes and conditions are such that they come out of their burrow and start on their journey to find a mate.

[06:51]

Meanwhile, the female tarantulas are in burrows, and they never come out. They just stay underground their whole lives, which can be up to 25 years. And the males, they are searching for their mate, and they have to be extremely careful because the females have a kind of gate that's been set up to warn them of predators coming. And unless the tarantula visitor who's coming courting Tarantula came a-court-y. He did walk. That's an old folk song. A froggy going a-court-y. Anyway, he has to let it be known in some way so that she knows it's a friend, Tarantula, coming, or she will attack and kill the visitor, so just to be quite careful.

[07:57]

Anyway, that's what the migration is. They're heading off, looking. They're not like going south for the winter or something. And it happens in late September and early October. And they're not an endangered species. There's hundreds of thousands of tarantulas in different kinds. So just wanted to let you know about our friends in the valley and mountains we've met up with. Yes. So, back to the story here. So, leaving the Buddha sitting, but I want to jump to, in later in the Buddha's life, another story. And this connects up with what I brought up yesterday about mitsuko, or intimate, secret, uh,

[08:58]

but really more like intimate speech. And before I get to that, I wanted to kind of draw together these threads that have been brought up. I want to tie them together or make a web, maybe, of these threads for our lineage to see how these teachings reoccur and are passed on from teacher to disciple and student to teacher to disciple to student. And the thread that I wanted to, and maybe you've realized it already, but the meditation instructions that we've heard last session and this session about just sitting, and how we practice with neither leaning forward nor backward, posturally with our bodies and also with our minds, leaning into things, grasping after things, or leaning away and pushing away.

[10:19]

And we know, you know, very thoroughly from Dogen, for Zazen, you know, Cast aside all involvements and cease all affairs. Do not think good or bad. Do not administer pros and cons. Cease all this kind of movement and just sit. And if we flow back from Dogen to Hanyatara, Prajnatara, if you remember the story from last Sashin where Prajnatara is having a meal at a donor's home and they're chanting and Prashnatara doesn't chant along, you know, and the person says, how come you don't chant sutras? And Hanyatara says, this poor wayfarer, this poor wayfarer doesn't dwell in the realms of

[11:28]

of body and mind when breathing in, doesn't get involved when breathing out. Doesn't get involved in the myriad things when breathing out. I'm always reiterating this scripture, hundreds, thousands, millions of scrolls. This is the same meditation instruction that we're so familiar with, you know. Do not think good or bad. Do not administer pros and cons. Do not get involved. gauging thoughts and views, comparing, and getting caught in discursive thinking. So it doesn't dwell in the realms of parimaya. If we dwell and are caught discursively, where is just sitting? What happens if we get involved in the myriad things? So this is prajnapattara, hanyatara, And then who comes next?

[12:31]

So Bodhidharma also gave a very similar instruction and gave it to Huayka, his disciple. And Huayka, it can be important. problematic story, the story of Hueca's devotion to sitting and practice, and whether, you know, is it an apocryphal story? Is it has a particular cultural cast of what really shows devotion? And for those of you who don't know the story, Hueca was... Anyway, he had been studying, he had been practicing, and had a kind of dream of this light entering the room. And his teacher, oh, and then he had this thing happen where he had these five terrible headaches and five bumps grew on his head.

[13:42]

And his teacher at the time looked at them and thought it was a portent. that these were five mountains and he needed to go and study at Shaolin with Bodhidharma. He like read the signs, like phrenology, you know, where they read the bumps on your head back in the day. Anyway, so off he went to study with Bodhidharma, who was sitting facing the wall. As we know, you know, the nine years of sitting. He celebrated to this day and woke up you know, presented himself and basically Bodhidharma said, you know, you really aren't a vessel of the Dharma and don't have enough devotion and, you know, please find somewhere else to go or something. And Hoika just stood there and it was wintertime and the snow and the snow got deeper and deeper. He's up to his waist and he's outside of Bodhidharma's sitting either cave or hut.

[14:46]

And then finally, so this teaching story is he, cuts off his arm as a show of devotion. And, you know, he says to Bodhidharma, please, I beg of you, I ask you, please open the gate of sweet dew. The gate of sweet dew, which we sing about, the kanro moan, is the gate of compassion. The kanro is what's in Avalokiteshvara's vase, Kuan Yin's vase of compassion that's poured down this open this gate and relieve me of my suffering in all beings. And, you know, this wasn't enough for Bodhidharma. But when he presented this drastic, drastic expression of devotion and wanting, Bodhidharma relented and took him on as a student. One wonders, you know, how he kind of took care of the wound. But we won't go there because...

[15:49]

It doesn't say, hopefully he healed. Anyway, so one of the things that bodhidharma, so we have hanyatara saying, I don't get involved in the myriad things, and I don't get caught in body and mind breathing in or breathing out. I just, what? What? What is it that does go? And Bodhidharma, in one of his teachings to Hoika, said, Ah. Breathing out, no involvements. Breathing in, no coughing or sighing in the mind. With the mind like a wall, we enter the way. mind like a wall. And this, I think, has been misunderstood as kind of being unfeeling, you know, being like a wall.

[16:55]

Same with these images of dead tree or piece of wood, Shantideva. Those images are not dead in different, I couldn't care less, leave me alone images. It's how does a wall respond to wind and rain and cold and it stays still. And whatever happens, it accords with conditions. So I think it's this mind, like a wall, you enter the way. So here's this same instruction about inside, supposedly inside, outside, and, you know, casting aside all involvements, and there's no coughing or sighing in the mind. The coughing is, or sighing is, you know, complaints, and it's not how I like it, and it's not good enough, or I do it this way, you do it that way, and mine's better, or getting involved in that way is coughing or sighing.

[18:11]

in the mind letting that go it's a kind of renunciation seeing what's it for what's it about it's let it go just let it go and just So Huayca, just a little bit more about Huayca, it's our second Chinese ancestor, right? He finally said to Bodhidharma in his kind of enlightenment realization, I have already ended all involvements. So Bodhidharma is saying outwardly sees all involvements. and inwardly have no coughing or sighing in the mind, finally, after studying with Bodhidharma, he finally said, I have no more involvements.

[19:20]

And I, you know, from what the koan we talked about yesterday, involvements, it's not involvements like, I don't have any truck with anybody or any people, or I don't get involved, I just stick to my own hermit practice, It's everything I see, supposed external involvements, is non-dual, you know, is not other than me, is big mind. So I have no more involvements. I'm not caught, I'm not leaking in that way of self and other, subject-object. I've already ended all involvements, says White God. passed aside all developments, and ceased all affairs. And Hoika, Hoika lived to be, I think, in his hundreds, and he, you know, passed on, transmitted to Kanchi Sosan, right?

[20:33]

And after that, he left a kind of more formal situation, and went to the metropolis, went to the city, went to the marketplace. And many people studied with him, all kinds of people. And he also had a practice of frequenting places you wouldn't expect necessarily to go to, like the wine shops. you know, these marketplaces. And he used to follow the people who cleaned the outhouses, you know, collected the night soil. He would spend time with them, hang out with them. And he was followed by many people. And one person, and what he said, Tukanchi So-san, Sang-san in Chinese, he said,

[21:38]

he told him, I have a karmic burden. I still have a karmic burden. This is after practicing with Bodhidharma, passing on the teaching, I have a karmic burden, which he, and no one knows what that was, what in his life he was working at karmic actions and the consequences, but he said, I have a karmic burden. And, you know, going to the city and hanging out at wine shops and with butchers and with the brothels, and that was his practice. And one person said to him, why do you practice this way? You're a man of the way, you know. Why do you practice it in this way? And he said, I tune my mind by myself. What concern is it of yours? Another translation is, what business is it of yours?

[22:39]

It's like, I know what I'm doing. And his ending is a sad ending. He was giving a Dharma talk somewhere in the street, I think, in front of a temple where another teacher was teaching the Nirvana Sutra. And all the people didn't, They chose to go and listen to Hoika's talk and not go into the temple, listen to the Nirvana Sutra Master talk about his expound, the Dharma. And this is something to take note of in our lineage. This teacher became very jealous. What was he jealous of? The crowds were going to him. Hoyka's more popular. What about me? And he began to slander Hoyka to various government officials that he was friends with.

[23:47]

And the government officials believed this teacher. And he was, I don't know what the slander was, but as we know, slander, by definition, is untrue, false. And he was arrested. and executed. This is Hoika's death. So this, you know, this power of jealousy, slander, and even among Dharma teachers, you know, this is, we're not immune to these powerful afflictions. No one, I would say. Except for, you know, Anuttara Samyaksam Bodhi Realizers. Upmost right and perfect enlightenment.

[24:55]

The Buddha, you know, let go of all that long ago. So he understood This is my way. This is what I'm doing. What business is it of yours? What concern is it of yours? I know what my practice is. Which just now reminded me of Suzuki Roshi in a question and answer talking with a student about, I think, a gopher that had been in the garden, had been caught in this trap that we had set out. and the person feeling terrible about this gopher who I don't think had been killed, but was maimed in the trap, and his guilt around that, and what are we doing, and what is our practice? And Suzuki Roshi, he said this wonderful thing, which was, you don't know about this gopher's practice.

[25:59]

The gopher... maybe a bodhisattva who's saying, I know what my practice is. Leave me alone. I'm doing my practice. This is my practice. And it was, I don't know who the student was, you know, it's just student A, B. But for me, it was, it broke open something, you know, some wide feeling about all beings, all, all sectioned beings. We don't know what their practice is. What concern is it of ours? What kind of projection are we placing that that's or sentimentality or whatever? So actually just now talking about hoika reminded me of that bodhisattva gopher of many, many years ago. who died right in our garden.

[27:09]

So following these meditation instructions from Hanyatara, Bodhidharma, Hoekha, all the way through to Dogen, these dharmic, what gets passed on from teacher to... One doesn't maybe even know what gets passed on. But we listen and we discover. We don't take it on faith, some kind of must be so, but we discover anew. And then we share and speak and convey with words or not words we convey. Mitsuko. this intimate language, whether it's words or gestures. Vekas had gestures and words. Buddha had gestures and no words.

[28:10]

Words, gestures. Words, no words. Gestures, no gestures. How do we convey that which is, you know, 84,000 scrolls all throughout the night? how will I convey this in the future? How will I share this? So, mitsugo, this secret, intimate, hidden, maybe, that if we are in accord, we hear it, loudly clear. We see it. whether it's spoken or not spoken, this is our intimate language. So I brought some... In the Mitsugo fascicle, the secret words or intimate words fascicle, the story, another story of Shakyamuni Buddha that says, After the Enlightenment, it's the transmission story with Makaka Shok.

[29:29]

with Mahakashakya. And some of you may know the story, and this story, as far as we can tell, came, you know, it's not from the oldest polycanon layers of teaching. It's the open canon, you know. It comes up later, maybe Chinese. We don't know exactly where this story came. And the story is the Buddha, Shakyamuni Buddha, was on Vulture Peak. not saying anything just sitting on Vulture Peak and he picked up a flower and twirled the flower and Makaka and blinked Shakyamuni Buddha twirled the flower and blinked and Makaka broke into a big smile this is this is the transmission story between Shakyamuni Buddha and Makakasho.

[30:33]

And then the Buddha said, I have the treasury of the true Dharma. I, the Shobo Genzo, at the fine mind of Nirvana, I entrusted completely to Makakasho, Makashakya. So this Mitsugo Picking up a flower, blinking, twirling it. What teaching is the Buddha teaching there? What's happening? What did Makakasho see? This intimate exchange. This transmission, worthless. So, in the Mitsugo fascicle, one of our other ancestors, Ungodoyo Dayakshō, this is another famous Chinese Zen master, he was asked about this story by a government official.

[31:58]

Yunju is, you know, these names of all these teachers, they have their name, they're kind of given name at birth then, their dharma name, and then often they take the name of the mountain. So they have this other name and then they're called, he taught on Mount Yunju, but his name was Hong Zhao. So Ungodoyo is, Ungo is the mountain. And then they get posthumous names that they're not, you know. So it's hard to tell, who are we talking about here? It's, oh yeah, that's, and then we learn them in Japanese. And it's like, who is this? Yuju, is that? Who is that? And then you have to look at the lists. But, you know, this is how our life is. It's like, we could call Mel Weitzman, we could call him Mel, we could call him Sojun, we could call him the abbot of Berkeley Zen Center, we could call him Black Pete, wasn't that his nickname when he was a painter in North Beach, I think?

[33:14]

He had a most abstract expressionist or something. Anyway, so Mel, which might sound kind of casual, could be all these names. So we know who we're talking about. Rev, Kenshin Roshi, Harold, Coleman, Anderson. But somehow... You know, I always feel a little bit flummoxed by it when I'm doing it in Chinese and Japanese, but we do it all the time. Anyway, yes, so back to this government minister says to, he gave an offering to ungo doyo, and then he said, the world-honored one had mitsuko, meaning intimate words. Kashapya did not conceal it. What was transmitted? What was the World Honored One's Mitsuko? Well, the World Honored One had this intimate language, and Kashapya did not conceal it.

[34:19]

What was the World Honored One's Mitsuko? Intimate language. And Ungo Dogyo said, Minister? And the minister replied, Yes. The great master said, Do you understand? And the minister said, no, I don't understand. And then Ungo Doyo said, if you don't understand, it's Mitsugo, the world-honored one's Mitsugo. If you do understand, it's Kashapya's non-concealment. So this is the koan in this Mitsugo fascicle. World Honored Minister makes an offering. I think all the details of the story are important. Minister makes an offering. He's not coming like, I know all this stuff, and I'm going to knock you off your seat.

[35:25]

He comes with wanting to understand. The World Honored One had Mitsuko. Kashapya did not conceal it. What was transmitted? He's asking about this story. about the flower and the blinking and the smiling. The World Honored One had Mitsuko, secret, hidden, intimate language, and Kashaka didn't conceal it. What was the World Honored One's Mitsuko? And Ungo Doya says, Minister? Yes? Do you understand? No, I don't understand. Your not understanding is the World Honored One's Mitsuko. Understanding is Kashapya's non-concealment. Now, this is Dogen's fascicle, and so the whole rest of the fascicle, of course, is using words, Dogen's words, as tools to unlock or show us or have us enter and understand what non-understanding and understanding is.

[36:38]

And just a few comments about this. It's reminiscent of the story of Dijon and Fai Yen. Fai Yen saying, I'm going on pilgrimage. And Dijon said, what are you going on pilgrimage for? And Fai Yen saying, I don't know. And Dijon saying, not knowing is nearest. Not knowing is most intimate. So this mind of not knowing or not understanding in our usual conventional life, that's not good, right? We want to understand. We need to understand. We have to understand. And Dogen, you know, very successfully, I think, prized our little claws off of that hell belief, you know. to understand, you know, alive or dead.

[37:42]

Tell me. So the, I don't understand. He, that's Mitsuko. How is that Mitsuko? It's just confusion. What do you mean? Secret intimacy or not knowing is nearest. But if we, if we turn the light in, if we, if we stay with not knowing or not understanding what happens. Often I understand is just grammatically, I understand that subject to object right away. I get it, you know. And then I got it, and I hold it, and I put it in my pocket, and I can bring it out and show you when I feel insecure and want to show you what I know. and come along with, I understand, and don't know, don't know mind, which I feel like is part of our lingo, you know, our Soto Zen or San Francisco Zen Center, people will not infrequently state with don't know as a positive thing.

[39:08]

So I feel like it's permeated. You know, it's one of these teachings that's kind of gone in. We've been soaking in it. And, you know, when he calls the minister, minister, there's absolutely no hesitation. Yes? Was there? did he have to think about that and understand, oh, he's calling my name. So that means I should respond. How should I, maybe I should do it strongly. How about, none of that, none of that kind of discriminative thinking, just minister height, you know, so height. Height is yes, just with no, there's no, there's no understanding there. It's direct, complete, Response, direct response. Inquiry and response come up together.

[40:12]

Total resonating. Tuning forks. And it's not a big deal. Somebody calls your name. You say yes. And there's a couple of koans where it says, I call a monk, hey you, and the monk turns his head. Without thinking. Without planning. Without even knowing anything. without knowing in our usual way this is intimacy but that's just so everyday well I know about that somebody calls my name I say yes everyday mind so when he says minister and the minister replies do you understand and he says no And that's right. He doesn't. And he doesn't need to. Because he's completely... He and Unkodoyo in this instant are... How can you separate subject to object there?

[41:27]

No leaking. No someone standing on the side and saying, look, look at that thing over there that just happened. Look, that's the other thread. It's in the koan of yesterday. The world's honored one ascended the seat. Somebody in Nogsan called the seat, the teaching seat, the talking tan. I thought that was such a great name for the Dharma seat, the talking tan. The world's honored one ascended the talking tan, ascended the seat. Manjushri Strattaka, Strattaka. The gavel? Clearly observe. The Dharma of the Dharma sovereign. The Dharma of the Dharma sovereign is thus. Just clearly observe, I think, is that same threat as cast aside all involvements, cease all affairs, no coughing or sighing, don't get involved, just clearly observe.

[42:33]

So this language, Dogen's words to us, is one of the things he does is take them and turn them upside down. Take a hallowed phrase, like, oh, I understand as good, and flips it so that not understanding is nearest, most intimate, intimate. And also he does that, you know, he creates words and changes the syntax and double backs and flips them over in a very poetic way to help us. It's our language, you know, we get so caught. We are caught. So I had a couple of stories from... Layman Peng, who, as you may know, was a lay person who was enlightened that he and his wife, who just goes by Mrs. Peng, but his daughter is Ling Zhao, who we chant every day, Ling Zhao.

[43:59]

And they were all enlightened. I think the son was, too. And Layman Peng renounced And I think it was okay with the rest of the family. But anyway, he took all their worldly possessions, put them on a boat, sailed out to the middle of the lake and sunk the boat. And they lived by making bamboo utensils, kind of peddling them. They were totally a happy bunch. It's a palm bunch. It's a new situation. Instead of the palm bunch. So there's a... Layman Kong decided not to be ordained. He was invited to, and he said, you know, I'm going to continue as a layperson, and, you know, my spiritual powers are chopping wood and drawing water. So he has a number of dialogues, and this one, a couple of these are about speaking and words. So he bumps into, I don't know if he bumped into, he matched one day with Poling Hoshang,

[45:07]

And they met on the rose. I guess they kind of bumped into each other. Pauling said, have you ever shown anyone the word by which you were helped at Naniwe in former days? And he was enlightened under Sekito Kisa. Shito. And so he's saying, what word helped you? What was the turning word? Have you ever shown it to anybody? And he said, yes, I've shown it. Replied the layman, to whom? Asked Poling, to Mr. Pong, meaning to myself. Pointing to himself, said Laman Pong. Certainly you are beyond the praise of even Manjushri and Sabuti, said Poling. Who is he who knows the word by which you were helped, asked the layman. And Poling put on his bamboo hat and walked off. And Laman Pong said, a good road to you. And this other fellow, Polin, didn't even turn around.

[46:13]

This is intimate language. This is Mitsuko. We have all these stories of Mitsuko. Here's another one with Polin. One day Polin said to the layman, whether you can speak or whether you can't, you can't escape. Now tell me, what is it you can't escape? And the layman winked. Reminiscent of the Buddha winking, right? The flower. Outstanding, exclaimed Poling. You mistakenly approved me, said the layman. Who doesn't? Who doesn't? Returned Poling. Take care of yourselves, said the layman, and wandered off. He just wandered around having meets a go. And this last one with Poling. Poling was sitting one day in his quarters, and the layman entered, and Poling grabbed him and said, People of today speak.

[47:16]

People of the past spoke. What do you speak? And the layman gave Poling a slap. And Poling cried, You can't speak. And layman replied, Speak, and there will be a fault. And then Poling said, pay me back for the slap. It's really an interesting flip there. He gets slapped, and then he says to pay me back. And Layman says, try giving me a slap. And he starts approaching him. And Poling says, take care of yourself. What these stories mean, you know, I don't understand. Do you? You know, it's just there's something kind of wonderful about freedom. intimacy, relationship, lots of take care of yourself, have a good time on the road, you know, please treasure yourself, this relationship, and coming together and just speaking intimately together.

[48:23]

So I wanted to have questions today. I just wanted to end with this poem that's at the end of the fascicle of secret words, intimate words, Mitsuko. One night, a rain makes flowers drop. This is a picture of spring. It's in the spring, and the flowers are, you know, cherry blossoms, maybe all sorts of blossoms are out. And there's a big rain. One night a rain makes flowers drop. All through the city the river water is fragrant. One night a rain makes flowers drop. All through the city the river water is fragrant. And the image and the commentary is, you know, flowers fall, you know, flowers fall.

[49:43]

And yet the fragrance travels on, you know, making the branching streams, you know, flowing in the darkness all through the night. Fragrant with the teaching. Fragrant with practice. Fragrant with intimate language. But flowers fall. And our loved ones fall and die. Teachers. Yet all through the night, It's raining and the river carries the fragrance, carries the blossoms everywhere. All through the city, the river water is fragrant. And having read this poem, because I was reading this fascicle, I've been thinking about these fall leaves that have been coming down, millions of them, millions of them.

[51:00]

And they will fall, and they are falling. And when I look up, they come down, but I can never have my eye on the exact leaf as it lets go. I have not seen yet an actual leaf let go and drop and swirl from the moment it lets go I can't catch it, and yet they're falling, falling. And this poem and the leaves have helped me to think about all the beings in my life and throughout the world, all the benefactors who we dedicate, all, all the

[52:07]

precious beings and the letting go. So this is our fourth day and I wonder if you have anything from any of the lectures or anything that you'd like to bring up or ask about. And then I thought we could do a walk after a few questions. Yes, Dylan. Let's see if I can put this question together. This meets you go and not understanding, but just meeting oneself completely into it. And as you put it, turn the light inward. But this turning the light inward is that...

[53:09]

Is that investigating? I don't know. In some form? Is it? Is it a sense of that turning around? Is it a sense of sort of seeing infinitely? Is that some form of verification? So can you verify? What can bear a father if it's instantaneous and momentary? What sees that turning around and is it an intimate investigation or is it just accepting that that's just what It is where it was.

[54:12]

You've said a lot there, Mr. Dillon. And I think that for the beginning, that turning around, turning the light around to study, not understanding, or I don't know, is study the self. It needs to be studied thoroughly. study that and studying that was full body mind maybe not not just intellectually I think the turning the light already says not intellectually full body the verification you know the teaching is practice realization are naturally undefiled, naturally not dual. And it's not that we get the prize at the end, it's that we see how things are, how they always have been.

[55:30]

Body and mind drop away is seeing that it's always been dropped off body, mind. One doesn't get anything. And the verification, you know, Mr. Pong, he says, I verified it with myself, but he had a teacher, you know, who twirled a flower and wink and smile between them. So I think this, we don't, We don't want to skip over that part. Mahi? So the same question, Madeline. The same question. So we study the self and ask, what is it? Who am I? And study and study and study and study to

[56:40]

in the study of the self is already I don't know. Right? We don't have to study in order to see I don't know. I don't know is manifesting. Yes? Not knowing is that who is. Not knowing is that who is. Not knowing is that it, did you say? No, I said not knowing is who it is. Not knowing is who it is, who you are. give an answer or something. That's good. I'm glad. I'm not trying to do that, but I just try. I'm trying. Yeah, I am trying. Right in the trying and not trying. There it is. There it is.

[57:59]

Wearing a rock suit. I was thinking a lot of the line of Dylan and Maheen, coming to a point and realizing you don't understand completely, but accepting that. That acceptance allows you to open to relax and to open to more inconceivable thoughts or actions. I feel like that's the step. It's actually the hook. It's accepting where you are, and that allows you to relax and focus. And I feel like that intimacy between those men, they're playing with each other and just checking in or something. Yes. Yeah. Well, I appreciate that. I think you're right. I think in that other story of tell me, tell me, you know, live or dead, tell me.

[59:03]

If you don't tell me, I'm going to... get aggressive in fact you did you know that's never relaxed right and really caught so letting letting go of that I need to know tell me what are you keeping from me because it's not concealed and that playing you know having playmates and having fun with this short life, you know. What a joy. What a joy to do that together. Diego. So, to study a self, to forget the self. So forgetting for me has an implication of previous knowledge.

[60:08]

You need to know something to forget it. What's the difference between forgetting and not knowing? as you said it, I thought, to forget some old idea of a self. But the more you study, the more you see that, that doesn't, it's untemple, it doesn't hold. And study is full body study, not just, not intellectual, it's our sittings. All the practice is study. And not knowing, so, to study the self is to forget both, I think, forgetting that old self and forgetting and thus not knowing what is it that thus comes.

[61:17]

So it's almost like they play, forgetting our old fixed view. We open to not knowing the vastness inconceivability, unknowable, they kind of come together. What do you think? Ministry? Hi. There's something compelling to me in the last story of Lin Payne, when his friend says to him, for that slap you owe me. And it has to do with a notion of debt, and there being no debt, there's no debt here between us.

[62:28]

I don't know quite where that's going, but I think of Mieke's arm and renunciation and death, and there's an intimacy of self-inquiry in that releasing of death. Does that strike a chord with you? Well, you know, the death, to requite the debt of the Buddhas and ancestors, we owe our life, you know. And if one doesn't realize that now, maybe later one would realize what we owe to the Buddhas and ancestors, and that debt can never be requited by any particular thing. It's requited only by practicing fully, completely, devotedly, forever, endlessly.

[63:38]

That's all. The only thing worth giving is our practice. So when this thing with, you know, Levin Pong slapped him, and then he said, you, and then Paul Ling said, you owe me. It really flips over. It's like, you owe me. I allowed myself to be slapped, so you owe me for that because I let you. So pay me for that because I let you give me a slap. But anyway, the debt, the requiting of debt, I mean, we pay it back every time we chant and dedicate the merit. We give it back to all sentient beings, whatever, because we owe everything. So I think requiting... is an interesting word. Yeah, I think the intimacy of feeling indebted forever, you know.

[64:48]

And the Buddhas and ancestors are indebted to us. Why? Because we, or how is that? Because we are carrying on. We in the future will be Buddhas and ancestors. They owe us and we owe them and it's just one ball of indebtedness. Endless indebtedness. Thank you. I am going to put my hands on Ka-sho and thank you and let's go for a Kim Kim outside. You can let us know the timing. Do you want to do that now? 50. 10.50. Meet in the circle area. Yes. Okay. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma.

[65:52]

For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[65:56]

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