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She Does Nothing About All Dharmas

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12/6/2014, Zenshin Greg Fain dharma talk at Tassajara.

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The talk explores the Soto Zen teaching of "no gaining idea" and highlights its embodiment in Prajnaparamita, the perfection of wisdom, perceived as a feminine deity. It delves into the integration and impact of Prajnaparamita literature, particularly focusing on how translations of the Perfection of Wisdom texts have shaped Zen Center's liturgy and practice, advocating a warm-hearted practice rooted in gratitude and acceptance.

  • Prajnaparamita Literature
  • Includes The Perfection of Wisdom in 8,000 Lines, translated by Dr. Edward Conze, which forms the basis for a hymn chanted in Zen Center's liturgy, emphasizing a feminine aspect of wisdom.

  • Dogen’s Yuibutsu Yobutsu

  • Mentioned as discussing the practice of non-attachment to dharmas or objects of mind, resonating with the idea of Prajnaparamita’s non-interaction with all dharmas.

  • The Heart Sutra and Diamond Sutra

  • Central to discussions of no-gaining idea and Prajnaparamita literature, highlighting themes of emptiness and interconnectedness.

  • Lotus Sutra

  • Referenced for its portrayal of the Bodhisattva ideal and the concept of "no attaining" which aligns with Soto Zen’s teachings.

  • Anuttara Samyaksambodhi

  • Discussed as the ultimate enlightenment and aim of Zen practice, achievable through collective, enlightened activity rather than individual attainment.

This literature and these teachings underpin the emphasis on engaging with life’s challenges with compassion and creativity, advocating for a collective and engaging practice as a response to societal issues.

AI Suggested Title: Embracing Wisdom Through Collective Compassion

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Transcript: 

This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good morning. I'd like to begin by... thanking and acknowledging my teacher, Sojin Mel Weissman Roshi, and to say that my talk is just to encourage you in your practice. Okay, I've got that out of the way. Very happy about this reign. I said in our senior staff meeting, It's probably not a good idea to take the weather personally, but the rain has filled my heart with gratitude.

[01:13]

Even as the creek has risen puddles showing up everywhere, there's just a similar rising my heart life-giving water coming to this valley this morning I'd like to I'd like to I think I'm going to talk a little bit about An idea or a teaching, particularly emphasized in Soto Zen, that I think is often misunderstood or misinterpreted, which is this teaching of having no gaining idea. However, it might take me a while to work around to it.

[02:27]

And I acknowledge I might not even get there. You know, like my teacher, Sojan Roshi, and Reb Anderson, and Paul Howler, I, too, am born in the sign of cancer, the crab. And you know, the crab... gets where it's going by walking sideways. Right? That's a notable feature of the crab. The crab is in the starting blocks. On your mark, get set, go. Pow! Scuttles off sideways. That's true. Cancer is also the moon sign. Right? moon child.

[03:29]

And today is the full moon. So, look out. There might be a little lunacy in this talk, too. Um... To begin with, I also want to thank our Shuso. She's such a good Shuso. Thank you, Shuso, for your diligent leadership. And, of course, our dear abbess, Adrian Roshi, Linda Ruth Cutts, I had the pleasure of driving her out on the morning of the personal day two days ago and enjoyed her company enjoyed moving a few rocks and a dead tree and the rawness and beauty of the road and the magnificent weather it wasn't actually raining at that moment just these misty clouds moving in

[04:55]

moving all around, really, really quite remarkable. Yeah, I've been very much swimming in Agent Roshi's teachings, like the fish that knows the fish's heart. And so the beginning part of this talk is kind of a tribute to Linda Ruth's because I want to talk a little bit about something that we chant every day, the hymn to the perfection of wisdom. You all know what I'm talking about, right? Probably most of you know it by heart. Let's try. Hymn to the perfection of wisdom. homage to the perfection of wisdom the lovely the holy the perfection of wisdom gives light unstained the entire world cannot stain her she is a source of light and from everyone in the triple world

[06:16]

She removes darkness. Most excellent are her works. She brings life so that all fear and distress may be forsaken and disperses the gloom and darkness of delusion. She herself is an organ of vision. She has a clear knowledge of the own being of all. For she does not stray away from it. The perfection of wisdom of the Buddhas sets in motion the wheel of Dharma. Do you all know where that comes from? Do you know that it's not a standard Zen liturgy at all? It's only San Francisco Zen Center. And as part of San Francisco Zen Center's history, Linda Ruth and Steve Weintraub or intimately involved in, responsible for, why we chant it and the version, what we chant.

[07:24]

So actually, Linda Ruth let me interview her. So this interview is kind of the basis for the beginning of my talk. And I just think the story is so great. So Dr. Edward Kanze translated a lot of the Prajnaparamita literature, Perfection of Wisdom in 8,000 lines, 25,000 lines, 100,000 lines. He was a great Buddhist scholar who translated from Sanskrit a lot. And he was actually teaching at UC Berkeley in 71 and 72. And Suzuki Roshi encouraged people to go study with him when he was in the Bay Area. And Linda Ruth was actually going over to Cal and some other people from Zen Center to study with Dr. Kanza.

[08:34]

Here's my personal copy of The Perfection of Wisdom in 8,000 Lines. This is where it comes from. It's the beginning of Chapter 7, the hymn to the perfection of wisdom. However... Well, let me back up a little bit. So, Linda Ruth said when she was in Tazahara, she was basically just reading the perfection of wisdom in 8,000 lines over and over during study time. That's what she was studying exclusively for a while. She was just reading it over and over. And... The liturgy we were chanting at Zen Center in the early 70s, which was much more androcentric, male-centered than it is now. We didn't chant the names of women ancestors. Lots of what we chanted said, like he and him and his. So when she read this hymn to the perfection of wisdom, with all of these, you know, she is an organ of vision.

[09:40]

She brings light. Prajnaparamita was personified as more or less a deity, a feminine persona. According to Dr. Kanza, it was helped to popularize the Mahayana in the early times in India, I guess, and wherever Mahayana Buddhism was spreading because, I guess according to his view, it sort of tapped into this prehistoric feeling or longing for adoration of the Great Mother, the Earth Mother spirit, deity. And Prajnaparamita, the perfection of wisdom, was personified that way. She is the mother of Buddhas. Prajnaparamita is the mother of Buddhas.

[10:42]

So Linda Ruth liked that a lot. And then I think around 75, she and Steve were here, and they were chanting the Diamond Sutra, which is something we still do at City Center, where everybody gets a copy of the Diamond Sutra and just opens it at random and just chants whatever page they come to. And it's like totally cacophonous. And apparently Baker Roshi thought this was a thing. Turns out it's not a thing, except it still is at City Center. Turns out they're not doing that in Japan. But still, we still do it. And they thought, well, there should be an echo for that. And of course, the Diamond Sutra is part of the Prajnaparamita canon. as part of the Prajnaparamita literature, as well as the Heart Sutra, which we chant every day.

[11:49]

So then Ruth was like, hey, why don't we chant this, this beginning of Chapter 7, where it talks about Prajnaparamita, because the Diamond Sutra is Prajnaparamita literature. And so they started doing that, but what we chant is not what Dr. Kanza has translated here. It's excerpted, or, yeah, like little bits of this are taken out. You can take a highlighter pen and highlight the bits that we do chant, and you would see, oh, yeah, that's what we chant every day. And Steve, who's like a good... editor and literary person. He did that. He did that. So what we chant is like excerpted from this.

[12:51]

So, well, I don't know. I found that really interesting. I don't know if they're chanting the Hymn to the Perfection of Wisdom in other, even other Suzuki-Roshi lineage. Do they chant it in Houston? Do you know? Do they chant this in Houston? No. They do in Austin. Okay. Okay. They chant it in Brooklyn? Oh, this is great. Yeah. Any more shout-outs? Minnesota? Did they chant? This? Yeah? That's interesting because not even Suzuki Roshi lineage. Category lineage in Minnesota. That's really interesting. I think I want to look into this more. I've read this before, but I went back and looked at it, and I don't know, different eyes. So here's what I was reading.

[13:55]

The perfection of wisdom, this is Shariputra speaking, by the way, speaking to the Buddha. The perfection of wisdom gives light, O Lord. I pay homage to the perfection of wisdom. She is worthy of homage. She is unstained. The entire world cannot stain her. She is a source of light, and from everyone in the triple world she removes darkness, and she leads away from the blinding darkness caused by the defilements and by wrong views. In her we can find shelter. Most excellent are her works. She makes us seek the safety of the wings of enlightenment. She brings light to the blind. She brings light so that all fear and distress may be forsaken. She has gained the five eyes and she shows the path to all beings. She herself is an organ of vision. She disperses the gloom and darkness of delusion. She does nothing about all dharmas. Right?

[15:01]

That's where I stopped. She does nothing about all dharmas. I mean, I could go on, but it's chapter seven. if you're interested. But you heard the parts, right? You heard little bits of what we chant as we're going along. And it goes on to the bottom of the page. The perfection of wisdom of the Buddha sets in motion the wheel of the Dharma. I don't know. I never really noticed that before, I guess. She does nothing about all dharmas. That's a complete sentence. Full stop. She does nothing about all dharmas. What are you going to do about all dharmas? Nothing. No, but seriously, what are you going to do about this? Nothing. No, nothing. She does nothing about all dharmas. Do you understand what's meant by dharmas? Things?

[16:01]

Basically, it's a small d, dharma. It means things, objects, objects of mind. In the Abhidharma, like Buddhist psychology, there's an attempt to kind of categorize all the constituent elements of reality, actually, everything we experience, everything that we can know in our experience, as a sort of a periodic table of the mind, elements. And there's a hundred or more or less, it depends on which school, which version you're looking at, dharmas, things, objects of mind, or constituents of reality. But anything, you know, a situation, a problem, a person, a feeling, anything.

[17:04]

Anything. All dharmas. In the Heart Sutra it says all dharmas are marked by emptiness. Prajnaparamita, what does she do about, she does nothing about all dharmas. Translated from Sanskrit into standard English, you know. That's what he got. She does nothing about all dharmas. When I read that, I was immediately reminded of the fascicle we're studying, yuibutsu yobutsu. You know the bit, I mean. Linda Ruth mentioned it in the last Sashin, and it's Leslie James's favorite guest season koan. Dogen says,

[18:07]

Long ago, a monk asked an old master, when hundreds, thousands, or myriads of objects come all at once, what should be done? The master replied, don't try to control them. And then Linda Ruth didn't get to this part, but Dogen goes on to say, what he means is that in whatever way objects come, do not try to change them. Whatever comes is the Buddha Dharma, not objects at all. I get this bit. Do not understand the Master's reply as merely a brilliant admonition, but realize that it is the truth. Even if you try to control what comes, it cannot be controlled. it's not just good advice it's actually how to practice she does nothing about all dharmas who?

[19:30]

Prajnaparamita the perfection of wisdom does nothing about all dharmas objects here in the fascicle could be dharmas things in fact it might be Actually, maybe objects is just a translation for dharmas. As far as I know, it could be. Same idea, same feeling. Don't try to control them. As a matter of fact, they can't be controlled. This is very strict practice. This is very strict practice. This is like... Bodhidharma's advice, when Bodhidharma says, inwardly, no coughing or sighing in the mind. There's various ways that's been translated, but everybody seems to really like the translation that says, no coughing or sighing in the mind, because we all get that.

[20:35]

You know, it's just kind of, it's a certain way that speaks to people. Boom, boom, boom. Yeah, I thought I was ready for anything. I'm not ready for that, though. Yeah, no, no, no. All dharmas, not that dharma. Or, oh, yes, this dharma. Either one, you know, grasping or averting, just coughing or sighing. Yeah, oh, yeah, not that dharma. If I stay present for that one, I'll be destroyed. That's my Zazen instruction in five words, stay present for what arises. Stay present for what arises. When you sit, when we are practicing Shikantaza, just sit upright, stay connected to your breath, and stay present for what arises, no matter what.

[21:46]

That's very strict practice. And something I've been saying most of this year is, in order to be very, very strict, I feel it's necessary to be very, very kind. So I think this is why Suzuki Roshi put so much emphasis on warm-hearted practice. It's our practice can't be just a mechanistic or rote or I'm pretty sure I'm doing the right thing here and I just keep doing that and I think I look pretty good. No, it's from the heart and it's staying connected to the heart

[22:51]

That's the only way we can do this really strict practice. It's a warm-hearted practice to keep that warm-hearted feeling in our sitting. Be kind to yourself. Be kind with your mind. Be kind with your mind. I made a rhyme. You owe me a dime. Staying present for what arises, accepting whatever arises with an open heart, a warm heart, is a tall order.

[23:55]

Zen has always been this radical. and ancestors of old, whereas we, we in the future shall be Buddhists and ancestors, the practice we're doing is just as radical as it ever was. Radical means, you know, to the root, like radish. Getting to the heart of the matter. So accepting whatever comes, staying present, accepting with an open heart, a warm heart, that's a really tall order. That is not easy at all. And even, you know, let's crank it up a notch.

[25:01]

Accept it with gratitude. Receive whatever comes as a gift. Suzuki Roshi said, we should be grateful for our problems. About a million times I think he said that. Approximately, he said that so many times. We should be grateful for our problems. Dharmas, things, situations. objects don't try to control them she does nothing about all dharmas so then you might say you might say but but Greg

[26:06]

If I just accept whatever comes, won't that make me a doormat? Does that mean I don't care about injustice or problems in the world or something that is terribly wrong, something that needs fixing? someone breaks their leg, shouldn't we set it? For example. Of course. Of course. So this is where I think some confusion arises around this no-gaining idea. Mushotoku.

[27:10]

in Japanese. We chant the Heart Sutra in Japanese, with nothing to attain, a Bodhisattva relies on Prajnaparamita, her again. There's nothing to attain. Why? you already have it. You're already complete. You're perfect just the way you are. Suzuki Roshi also said that about a million times. It's hard to hear. Just like the 5,000 who got up and walked out in the Lotus Sutra. They weren't ready to hear that. Does that mean there's no progress in practice?

[28:18]

Does that mean there's no addressing problems? No, it doesn't mean that. I think where the confusion arises is sometimes people think, well, I have to sacrifice one at the expense of the other. If I'm addressing a problem, I mean, obviously that means I don't accept the way things are. I can't. That doesn't reconcile. Or if I'm accepting things the way they are, then it means I have to just give up on trying to work with things, engage with them. I have to sacrifice one at the expense of the other. my proposition is you don't. That actually they exist in parallel.

[29:22]

We have to accept, in particular, we have to accept our current state of mind. How much time do we spend wishing we were some other person? Wishing we didn't have this current state of mind? The state of mind I have right now is unacceptable. So what? You know, I'm going to step out of this body. You can't really do that. But we try. We try and try and try. So the practice of upright sitting brings us back, brings us back, brings us back, brings us back. Of course your body is always in the present moment. Of course you are always in the present moment. You have to accept what is first before you can work with anything, anything.

[30:43]

So this musho toku mind is where we operate from. The usual way of thinking is, well, what's the advantage? What's in it for me? What's the angle? If I were a good Zen master, I'd shake my stick and I'd say, there's no advantage. but I'm probably not a good Zen teacher. I think I'm just a B-list Zen teacher. Doing the explainee Zen. So, I will say, the advantage is letting go of the mind that says, what's the advantage? The advantage is being free of the mind that says,

[31:52]

What's the advantage? Being free of that anguish. The angle is the anguish. No angle. There's no angle whatsoever. Shōtoku means wages or earnings, actually, in contemporary Japanese. Mu is no. In Chapter 4 of the Lotus Sutra, the Shravakas are talking to the Buddha and some Shravakas, I forget who, but just some Shravakas. And they're talking to the Buddha and they say, we were diligent and exerted ourselves and we all attained nirvana, which was like one day's wages. Here's your nirvana, mister. You've been a good monk.

[32:55]

Here's your nirvana. Hey, don't spend it all in one place, okay? Lotus Sutra sets up these shravakas, this kind of straw men and women, you know. I mean, actually, everybody's practice is really great. Make no mistake. It's just another skillful means, a teaching device, if you will, to expound the ekayana, the one vehicle that, you know, the big...

[34:02]

jumbo jet of the Mahayana, two wings, wisdom and compassion, carrying all beings, all beings, everybody, exclusive of nobody. We're already there. We're already on that jet. We're already abiding in Anuttara Samyaksambodhi. Abbot Steve told a story. Anuttara Samyaksambodhi. They used to chant that in Zen Center, in chanting the Heart Sutra in English. With nothing to attain, a bodhisattva relies on prajnaparamita, and thus the mind is without hindrance. Without hindrance, no fears exist. Far apart from every perverted view, one dwells in nirvana.

[35:04]

In the three worlds, all Buddhists depend on Prajnaparamita and thereby attain unsurpassed complete perfect enlightenment. They used to chant, instead of saying, unsurpassed complete perfect enlightenment, they'd say the Sanskrit, Anuttara Samyaksambodi. So, Abbot Steve was helping Isan Dorsey in Hartford Street, before it was the Hartford Street Zen Center, Isan got this house and was going to help people who were dying of AIDS there and give them a place to take care of them, to do hospice work for people who are dying of AIDS. And he did that. Later on, it became the Harper Street Zen Center. And Steve was, wow, two great ancestors, no longer with us. I knew them both. Isan Dorsey was very nice to me.

[36:05]

Very nice man. Steve, you know, was a landscape architect and did rock work and landscaping as a business. And he was helping Isan at the Harper Street House doing some work. And we were both working together And Steve said, what are you really doing here? And Isan said, anuttara samyak sambodi. That's what we're really doing. That's our activity. That's our collective activity. Suzuki Roshi says, strictly speaking, there are no enlightened people. There's only enlightened activity. From Mushotoku mind, we can be grateful for our problems.

[37:09]

From Mushotoku mind, we can accept things as it is. We can accept as messed up as we might be finding it, as impossible, as difficult as we can. and then have the freedom, then have the capacity, the openness. You're not stuck. You see options. So, we all know Tassajara is... behind the news cycle. Some monks keep up on current events more than others.

[38:13]

But I think we're all aware that this has been a year of a lot of unrest and fury, even. A lot of protests about and specifically the killing of unarmed black people by police. There have been a number of examples this year. I have a list, actually, just for the heck of it. Tamir Rice was a little boy in Cleveland who was in a playground waving a toy gun around. Police cruiser pulled up, shot him dead. Victor White III in Iberia Parish, Louisiana.

[39:20]

Dante Parker in San Bernardino, California. Ezell Ford in L.A. Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri. I think we're pretty familiar with. Tyree Woodson in Baltimore, Maryland. John Crawford III in Beaver Creek, Ohio. Eric Garner in New York. Yvette Smith in Bastrop, Texas. That's just a short list. That's just unarmed black people who were killed by cops this year. Eric Garner's killer, murderer, if you will, person who took his life, like the person who took Michael Brown's life, Not even any charges. Leslie just shared that with us and senior staff. So there's a lot of protests in New York right now, all across the country, actually. Not even any charges were brought against these two men.

[40:22]

So, you know, how to respond to that. I feel that's not acceptable. Yet, here it is. And it's the history of this country. It's our history. But people are waking up. Hey, Buddhism is the religion of waking up. They're waking up and saying, you know, what was taken for granted? What was accepted as a matter of course? Or you just turn the page in the newspaper? Oh, that's too bad. Just turn the page? No. Actually, no. Let's do something.

[41:34]

How to respond is the big question. That's what Sojan Roshi is always saying, he's not interested. He says, I'm not interested in what or why. I want to know how. How do we act? How do we respond? From Prajnaparamita. From a mind that's open and a heart that's open. That's our only chance. Or I have another example. which is the Rosebud Sioux... I'm like the newsreader up here. Tassahara News. The Rosebud Sioux Reservation said if the United States government tries to put the Keystone XL pipeline through their reservation up in North Dakota, I think?

[42:36]

South Dakota is where the reservation is? So what, the pipeline's already gone through North Dakota? Don't know. Okay. They will consider that an act of war. So that the U.S. government would be at war with the Sioux Nation. Well, it hasn't happened. But if it were, how would the Sioux go to war? against the US government. Probably not in the conventional way we think of war. So, we have to have new ideas. We have to have options. We have to have creativity, playfulness even, to respond

[43:39]

to a suffering world. I think of a great teacher of mine, and with your permission, I'd like to bring her into the room. I had her picture on our Thanksgiving altar, Kushin Seisho Meili Scott, one of Sojan Roshi's deshis, who died in 2001, such a long time ago. Meili was a great friend and a practice leader of mine, a great teacher to me. And her motto was, devotedly do. She was a very instrumental person in the Buddhist Peace Fellowship in the early days and also founded the Buddhist Alliance for Social Engagement.

[44:49]

She was very involved in working for justice. She was very involved in social action. Meili used to go out and sit zazen at the Concord Naval Weapons Depot. Sit zazen at the of San Quentin when someone was being executed. She was always there. She'd say, devotedly do. This is our activity. Our enlightened activity together. Actually, it was devotedly do without attaching to outcomes. This is operating from mushotoku mind. We don't know. I can't say I'm only going to care if I know I'm going to get the result I'm looking for.

[45:49]

No. Actually, that's not very helpful. We just do it. That's the bodhisattva ideal. That's the bodhisattva practice. Our vows are ridiculous. I don't think we say the ridiculous vows, do we? What do we say? What are the vows? Those vows? Yeah, that one. Yeah. Inexhaustible vows. But they are pretty crazy. But That's what we do. That's what we do. That's our practice, our enlightened activity together. We do this together.

[46:51]

That's the ekayana. That's the one vehicle. It's not your practice and your practice and your practice and my practice. It's our practice, our collective practice. And I think that really needs a lot of emphasis in contemporary Western mindset. And a friend of mine, Zenju Earthland Manuel, was writing about that, actually in response to what's been happening in Ferguson, Missouri, and all over this country. I would like to read you a little bit of what Zenju wrote. She was saying, there's a bit of a problem in the way we're practicing Buddhism. We're always thinking about my practice, my path, my understanding, my whatever.

[47:55]

She says, perhaps it is this focus on mindfulness or meditation and nothing else on the Eightfold Path. that leads many to misconstrue the path as a personal journey and not a collective path of interrelating or a collective way toward the cessation of suffering. We emphasize mindfulness and meditation so much that perhaps our wheel of Dharma has gone flat. Or perhaps we have rode upon this wheel with such a singular approach like, I meditate, that we lack the full understanding that we need others and other aspects of the path to turn the wheel of the Dharma. I could not agree more. But she says it so much better than I could have. So that's my proposition. Strictly speaking, there are no enlightened people. There's only enlightened activity. And our enlightened activity comes from mushotoku mind.

[49:04]

You're perfect just the way you are. Period. Practice from there. We do our practice for the sheer joy of it. Do our practice for its own sake, for sharing. Because it's what our heart is asking of us. You know that, you know, I don't have to go explain these then there. You already know. You already know. So tonight we'll have a full moon ceremony and we'll come together as a Sangha. We'll come together as a community. take refuge, and renew our vows.

[50:10]

This is how I want to practice. This is how I want to respond to a suffering world. I thank you for your patience. I know I've talked a long time. I want to finish with something that my teacher practice leader, Meili, wrote. Speaking of liturgy that's been introduced, they actually chant this sometimes on a regular basis at Berkeley Zen Center where Meili was co-tanto before she went to Arcata and founded the Arcata Zen Center. This is called Peace Prayer. So please make yourselves comfortable. even shut your eyes if you like. This is kind of a guided meditation, kind of a prayer, kind of a meta-practice.

[51:20]

Peace Prayer. May I be well, loving, and peaceful. May all beings be well, loving, and peaceful. May I be at ease in my body, feeling the ground beneath my seat and feet, letting my back be long and straight, enjoying breath as it rises and falls and rises. May I know and be intimate with body-mind, whatever its feeling or mood, calm or agitated, tired or energetic, irritated or friendly, breathing in and out, in and out, aware moment by moment of the risings and passings. May I be attentive and gentle towards my own discomfort and suffering.

[52:27]

May I be attentive and grateful for my own joy and well-being. May I move towards others freely and with openness. May I receive others with sympathy and understanding. May I move towards the suffering of others with peaceful and attentive confidence. May I recall the bodhisattva of compassion, her one thousand hands, her instant readiness for action, each hand with an eye in it, the instinctive knowing what to do. May I continually cultivate the ground of peace for myself and others and persist mindful and dedicated to this work, independent of results. May I know that my peace and the world's peace are not separate, that our peace in the world is a result of our work for justice.

[53:35]

May all beings be well, happy, and peaceful. Well, thank you for your attention. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click giving.

[54:26]

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