This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Thank you all so much. Thank you for this beautiful case, which I haven't seen until now. I mean, I've seen the fabric, you know, which, by the way, although it looks beige, they assure me that it's green. Appropriately green. Greg says it reminds him of the sea foam, that little poem that I've done, some of you have heard, which I'll try to work into today's lecture so you can all hear it. Yes, thank you to all those people who started way back when. even before the Okesha, all of you who've given me my wonderful life.

[01:04]

Really, I couldn't possibly have this life without you, so please keep coming to Tassajara and practicing with me. And also, I really want to thank the people who have, over these years, when this Okesha has been trying to be born, have been keeping my other oquesa alive, my dear, dear other oquesa. And it's not done yet. I mean, it may, I don't know whether it's, I haven't stuck my hand through any holes recently, so you all who have been sewing on it, it may be done for now, but I intend to keep wearing it. And if you're one of the, some of the people who've been sewing on it, carry on, because I'm sure it's still going to need it. So I wanted to talk today. Somebody reminded me a few days ago that a few talks back, I mentioned there were like, I don't know what I called them, but there were like three things, three parts of practice, something like that.

[02:28]

Anyway, they were attention, respect, and not knowing. And I wanted to expand on that a little bit. Attention, in some ways, is kind of like, how do we get here? How do we find ourselves? How do we find the place where we can actually meet ourselves? You know, meet anything. Meet the problem that we have. Meet our life. Meet another person. Meet the task we're trying to do. Meet enlightenment. Meet anything. So this morning we chanted the Genjo Koan and an excerpt from the Genjo Koan. A fish swims in the ocean and now no matter how far it swims, there is no end to the water. A bird flies in the sky, and no matter how far it flies, there is no end to the air.

[03:31]

However, the fish and the bird have never left their elements. Now, if a bird or a fish tries to reach the end of their element before moving in it, this bird or this fish will not find its way or its place. When you find your place where you are, practice occurs. When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs. A fish swims in the ocean, and no matter how far it swims, there's no end to the water. A person walks in his life, and no matter how far he walks, there's no end to his life. This seems so simple, like where else could we be? True, where else could we be? Nowhere else, and yet we are so confused about where we are. We have this capacity to imagine another reality, something that we think, at least, that birds and fish don't have.

[04:36]

As far as we know, I mean, I don't know how we know that, because really, how would we know that? But they don't look confused. Of course, mostly we don't look so confused either, but we are really confused, as you know. You know, we're... We're thinking, should I be here or should I be there? Should I be here or should I be there? Well, we actually are someplace. There really isn't any question about where we should be. Now, there might be a question about what we should do in the future, and it's not completely delusional to think about what we might do in the future, but we should know that we don't really know the future. We can't really decide. where we should be in the future because we don't know what the future is going to be. So again, when we want to meet ourselves or meet anything else, we have to come back to our element. And our element is, you know, it's pretty easy to find actually when you know where to look.

[05:42]

It's good to look at like form instead of ideas. It's good to look at where are my feet, where are my hands, what's going on in my belly. And then we can include in that that I'm having a lot of ideas about something or I'm having a lot of emotion or a lot of energy about something. That can be in the present. But when we start thinking that that's our real life, or not even thinking usually, we don't usually think that's my real life, but that's where attention comes in. We put our attention on this imaginary world that we are worrying about, or dreaming up, or practicing for, or whatever, and forget that there's an actual place where we are that we can get to. So we try to practice.

[06:45]

is to try to, or one of the first steps of practice, at least in this way of describing it, is to try to get to this place. My Dharma name, which yesterday I either told Greg wrong or he heard wrong or something, and I don't know which, and then I told Linda the wrong meaning for it, but the first part of my Dharma name show, means settle or finish. Settle finish. Given to me by my dear root teacher, Richard Baker, who, in spite of some confusing things that he's done, was a very good teacher for me back when I was starting to practice. And I think this was a really good name. Settle. Settle. Just settle. Settle. And that is the finish. Anyway, just for starters, just settle.

[07:49]

Not that I knew how to do that. I don't think we really do know how to do that. But I do think that that is one of the effects of Tassahara life. One of the effects of Zazen, whether it's done at Tassahara or not. But added to it at Tassahara is, besides Zazen and a fair amount of it, there also is the life here, which is pretty simple. settling just settling who would have thought that just settling would be such a big thing that it was actually like the finish in some ways of the whole event to just get here to see what my thoughts were Then the second, respect, attention, respect. So settle, get here, find your place.

[08:56]

Just before I go to respect, when I first came to Zen Center, I don't think I had any idea that that was possible. I hadn't done any sports, which I think helps people get in their body. But I hadn't done anything like that that I remember. And my attention was very focused on other people. I mean, that's kind of my skill, maybe you've noticed. I like to talk to you. I like to hear about your life, and that comes quite naturally to me. But in everyday life, there's some good things about that, some strengths. People feel heard. and tended to, but there also is a part of it that's self-protective. It's like the antenna being out there kind of noticing, is everybody happy?

[10:01]

Because if they're happy, then they're likely to be nice. And if they aren't happy, we better see what we can do to get them happy. And then if some people or person starts to matter more to me and their happiness, then my antenna are like, you know, like, is Keith happy? Is he happy? Where is he? Is he doing things I want him to do? Anyway, so somewhere in my body, even though it certainly hadn't been articulated, but as I noticed it, the feeling was, you know, that's my place. My place is to be, you know, whatever, watching Keith. And it had never occurred to me that my place might be over here, that there was a place to be over here. I think anybody can be this way, but I do tend to think, excuse me for making a gender statement, because I know they're really dangerous, that women are often more trained in some subtle way, maybe even biologically, I don't know, to be watching other people.

[11:11]

You know, have our intent out there. How do we take care of everybody? And again, it's a strength and a weakness. And men in general, so it's not true all the time, are more trained or bred or something to be more self-centered, which is a strength and a weakness. You know, it's more like centered, but it has less often less empathetic. quality to it. So I actually think Zazen is good for balancing that, that actually we can become centered here and yet aware, and I'll come to more of that in a minute. So when I first heard that, like Richard Baker said, I don't know where this was, it seems to me like it was in service, but I can't remember him ever talking in service, but put your hands in your mudra. I think we were in Shasha, and I was like, whoa.

[12:14]

No, excuse me, put your mind in your mudra. Maybe it was like this, but I remember it like this. It doesn't matter. You can put your mind in your mudra either way, and I was shocked that there was that possibility, and then found out it was actually possible. I could bring my mind back to my mudra. or bring my mind back to my feet as I was walking, or bring my mind, for me mostly, back to my stomach, hara, gut. Just bring my mind back there. And it's quite a settling event to do that, quite a revelation about where my place might be, where practice occurs over here, over here. So then we have a water theme today, slightly water theme. We're so happy for the rain that came, and there's supposed to be more.

[13:20]

So we'll try to mention fish a little bit today. So then respect. What is our attitude once we're here? That's another way of talking about respect. So once we're here, to let it be what it is. Let me see what I wrote down this morning. Oh, I know part of it. Or as the Genjo Cohen says, the place the way is neither large nor small. It's neither yours nor others. not only from the past and it's not merely arising now so the place the way this place this way is complicated it's complicated it's not simple in a way it is simple you just come back and you're here but also it's not exactly mine even though here it is it's me but it's this

[14:32]

constantly responding, constantly changing event. Even though it's just here, it's just me, settled, it's not necessarily quiet. It's not settled like we might think of settled. I like to walk in the dark. I don't know, I've always liked to walk in the dark. If you need to see me in the morning, and the hawn has started or the wake-up bell has gone, even though my light isn't on, I'm up. So you can come. I don't turn on my light in the morning. I didn't used to turn on my light in the evening until I got one of these occasions, and now I can't do that in the dark yet. So I thought that I like to walk in the dark because I like to save on electricity, not just here at Tassara, but other places, Jamesburg, for instance. The bathroom there is a long ways from the bedroom, so in the night, if I have to get up and go to the bathroom, I go in the dark.

[15:38]

And I thought this was my kind of miserly tendencies, or conservation tendencies or something. Then a few years ago, my mother told me that she likes to walk in the dark. And she thinks that she likes to walk in the dark because my sister's blind. She said, I don't know. Maybe it's because Shelly's blind that I like to walk in the dark. I'm like, oh, interesting. So I have this blind sister, and I like to walk in the dark. And Keith yesterday was reading a book review, and yesterday, the day before, and notice there's a review of five new books about blindness. And one of them, they all sound really interesting. I haven't read any of them yet. But one of them is called Touching the Rock. And it's by a man, I think his name is James Hull, who went blind when he was in his 40s. And it's very detailed of his experience of the shift from being, he said, from being a sighted person who can't see very well to being a blind person.

[16:46]

And the difficulty and the wonder of that. And there was this one quote. from there that says, he says, you know, it's just in the newspaper article, the review of it, he says, sighted people live in the world. A blind person lives in consciousness. So, you know, this wasn't written by a Buddhist. It's not necessarily exactly the way we might understand it, but it was very interesting to me of the kind of objectification that happens with sight. how I live in the world. I live in this world, and there are you, and I can see what my world is made up of. A blind person lives in consciousness. So what does that mean? I'm very interested to read this book when I can find it. But this morning, during breakfast, I just thought, well, I'll just try that. Close my eyes. And it's very interesting.

[17:48]

You should try it. I, of course... Of course, I open my eyes every time I thought the server was coming to me, which was probably a really good idea. My sister and brother-in-law are both blind, and they can do amazing things, but you have to set up your world to do those things. I don't know if a blind person would do orioke. Maybe they probably could. You just know where things are, basically. They know where things are, and as long as nobody comes in and moves them, they do very well. They go camping for 10 days. They have somebody drop them off with their tons of stuff. And then they run a rope to the bathroom from their tent. They put up their tent in a kind of crooked way. And then they run a rope from the tent to their bathroom. And then there they are. So anyway, I didn't do that at breakfast this morning. But it was interesting to close my eyes and just feel the servers coming in the door, walking around the Zendo.

[18:54]

I already knew a lot about Orioki, so I had an idea of where they were going, but even trying to put that aside and just sort of feel them moving past me, and it's different. It's not the servers moving around, it's the bump, bump, bump in my body. It's the door opening and closing in my body, or the floor reverberating up through the tan and into my body. So there's much more of a connectedness to it. So something like that attitude, once we get here, can we experience how here is... being created. How it's happening. How it's neither mine nor others.

[19:58]

It's not just from the past and it's not just arising now. It's this alive happening. Which leads us to the third part which I called not knowing before and could also call you know, an alive happening, a very alive mandala that we are part of, which it's not really our job to, like, get to know it, to, like, or even better, control it, which is kind of, you know, what we often want to do when we're just walking around in our normal... way of thinking, we think, okay, now I need to be like this, and they need to be like that, and how am I going to make that happen? From this place of very alive interacting, there's no way that control can be the goal.

[21:12]

I mean, if it is, it's just more tightening, right? It's just more frustration. And I think in some ways that's one way of saying the point of Buddhism is it's okay to be part of this very alive mandala. It's okay to not know. To not know how... things should be to not know exactly who you are to just be functioning here's where the seafoam poem comes in this is a poem by one of Steve Stuckey's teachers and where is Steve Stuckey now where was that right here

[22:16]

I thought down there you were saying. He's down there. Yeah, I guess he's right here. Yeah. Very mysterious. Very mysterious. One of his teachers, Harry Roberts, wrote a little poem, very little poem, called What is Seafoam? What is seafoam? Seafoam is a bit of wind caught by the ocean. Seafoam. is a bit of ocean caught by the wind. Sea foam is a bit of wind caught by the ocean. Sea foam is a bit of ocean caught by the wind. Somehow this poem is so poignant to me about how we are made by everything and how we make everything. And how, you know, that can sound simple, right?

[23:19]

When it's sea foam in the wind, it seems pretty... I mean, when it's the ocean in the wind, it seems pretty harmless. The wind comes, picks up a little bit of ocean, makes a little bit of sea foam. Ocean goes up in a wave, catches a little wind, makes a little sea foam. Fine. It all goes back to ocean and wind. But when it's us... You know, with you, me with you, or, you know, one of my prayers is that this new Ocasa does not meet with and mix with salad dressing before. Forever, actually, that would be my prayer. Never, never meet salad dressing. And especially don't meet salad dressing before Steve's memorial and the mountain seat ceremony. Okay, good. So that's sort of how we feel about certain meetings, right?

[24:21]

Like, no thank you. I would not like to meet that bit of ocean. Become a bit of sea foam with that person or that experience. That's not how it works. Salad dressing is everywhere. Oh, here's another quote from Dogen. This is from Only a Buddha and a Buddha. This is my favorite Dogen fascicle. This one I just happened to read just before the Belt and Study happened. And I wanted to share it with you. When you understand a moment of no understanding... does not come and hinder understanding. And understanding does not break no understanding.

[25:22]

Instead, understanding and no understanding are just like spring and autumn. When you understand, a moment of no understanding does not come and hinder understanding. And Understanding does not break no understanding. Instead, understanding and no understanding are just like spring and autumn. When we meet somebody, when we work with someone... When we're in an intimate relationship with someone, even more, it's kind of amplified. This understanding and no understanding that works together, like spring and autumn, that complements each other.

[26:31]

is a kind of frightening thing. And again, it's frightening because our desire to control it, our desire to have these relationships be, what? At least not too unpleasant. From my point of view, from the point of view of me in the world, a separate being in the world, I want to have them be not too unpleasant. So I feel like understanding is... the important part. Like I need to understand what's happening for me. I need to understand what do I want. I need to understand what I'm trying to say. I need to understand how to communicate that. And then I need to understand the other person. And I need to understand who are they really? Are they trustworthy or not? What are they trying to get? What do they want of me? What happens when we come together? especially if it's sparky in whatever way, either positive or negative, what's going on there?

[27:41]

And so we lean heavily on understanding, which, again, is our brain mostly and very closely connected with our eyes, which see things quite separately and try to divide it up and analyze it. want to make it go my way, my separate way. Really, when we meet somebody, we don't understand. We don't understand ourselves. We don't know what's going on over here. We really don't understand them. We don't understand the whole situation. That's got to be part of it. That's part of the miracle of life. is that we don't understand that things are happening that we don't understand. We don't understand the effect that we have on each other. We don't understand the effect that we have on the world.

[28:43]

So it's not that we don't understand everything. We understand a few things, and we don't understand a few things. Or myriad things. Maybe we understand myriad things, and we don't understand myriad things. That's a good place to live from. That's a very alive, trusting, it's a trusting place to live from. So that's a little leap for us. But as we get here, and as we open-heartedly respect what's here, we start to see there isn't any other option, for one thing. There isn't really any way to get it all under control. understand everything. And in this practice, we're sort of forced to take little steps towards trust, like my trusty Jiko, who bravely

[29:55]

with Sajiko today for the first time, I think, right? And then had to also participate in this complicated ceremony, right? That was an act of trust. She could have just said, I can't. There's no way I can. I mean, I could have said, I can't. No, I can't do this. We could have both said that. We could have just left. But that would not have increased our trust, which actually, even though you probably don't notice, But when you first step over that doorway to serve, the first time you serve, and you think, oh, no, no way. I'm not going to the habit. But then you do, and then something happens. Maybe you spill a little cereal. Maybe you don't. But anyway, everybody lives. They get through it. You get done with the meal. You get through with the day. You're maybe kind of worn out, but you're actually, you live through it. Something in us notices, oh. didn't know what I was doing I knew a little bit but I didn't know it completely and it and it was okay was okay our trust grows a little bit grows a little bit and in these relationships where we are willing to admit I don't know and to exchange understandings

[31:20]

either verbally or just by living with each other, exchange understandings and let no understandings be there and function, sometimes come to light, sometimes not, our trust grows, which, again, I think is kind of the point of this practice. Is it okay to be me in this space? totally alive, totally interacting, you know, moving through me, mandala, that is my life, that is our life, that is the life, that is the universe. Is it okay to be this part of it with all the, you know, obviously not okay parts? You know, if I look at certain parts of me, I can see that's not okay. That's not okay. It's going to cause harm. If anyone finds out about it, I'll be very embarrassed, or if it leaks out at somebody, they'll be hurt, or various things that we can be sure it's not okay.

[32:28]

And yet, here it is. It's actually here. There actually is that pain, that anger, that lust, that, you know, can I be here with that? Is it okay? And as we settle, and are open-hearted with that and stay with it and find out some more about how it functions, but also that it is functioning, even though we don't know what it is, we can settle further. We can be alive in this situation. We can act. open-heartedly with each other, just like we do every day. Is there anything you would like to add or ask? Yes, Mary.

[33:33]

What is good enough? You mean, just those words, good enough. without judgment. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, well, that's all we've got, right? I don't know any perfect people. I really don't know any perfect ones. Of course, my experience has been rather limited. I didn't know Buddha. I didn't even know Suzuki Roshi, but I've heard actually he wasn't perfect. I've known a lot of people who you know who are here now and here now or at Zen Center or, you know, none of them look perfect. So, yeah, good enough. Good enough. I think it's, that's... And, you know, doing our best, I agree with that. I think, you know, one of our vows is, I think our main vow is to be open to this body and mind.

[34:45]

I think that's what we're saying when we sit down in Zazen, whether we know it or not. And then another vow that goes with that is to try to be beneficial. But it gets tricky because we've got lots and lots and lots of ideas about what being beneficial is or what doing our best is, and we fail at that all the time. So that gets a little... tricky. So I would say, yeah, what looks to us like good enough is actually perfect. Yes, Caitlin. Yeah, it's sea foam. What are we making when we meet with each other? Well, you know, in the conventional world, we make different things.

[35:51]

You know, sometimes we make pie, and sometimes we make love, and sometimes we make hate. And sometimes, you know, so... But do you want to say more about what you mean? We're making life. Do you want to say something more? You don't have to. You know, in some ways, we, like, we don't make anything. Like, if you and I meet, it's not exactly you and me meeting. You know, there's Some part of me responds to some part of you and vice versa.

[36:52]

And then there's the whole surround. You know, so it's kind of a simplification to say I meet you and something happens. But we do mix and meet and all that and life goes on. That's what I mean. I'm not quite sure how to say something more about it. It's... You know, I... For most of my life, and it's not happening right now, thank goodness, even though it's been a wonderful thing, I have gotten serial crushes on people. You know, kind of long-term crushes, like several years. And I've been married for... longer than I've been doing practice periods. And dedicated to my marriage.

[37:53]

No question about that. And still, these crushes would happen. And my particular karma is such that it didn't cause too many horrible messes. But nonetheless, there was a kind of mixing with these people. men, always men, in my case, always men, always men who were somewhat critical, you know, so that I could secretly get them to like me and then it would mean something, you know, because if they just liked everybody, it wouldn't count, right, so it had to be, it took me a long time to figure this out. I'm giving you this insight just like straight out, but it took, didn't come easy. I just, first I just thought they were wonderful, you know, They were wonderful. And they liked me. That was great. And then I noticed that that was the most important part, that they liked me.

[38:58]

So, you know, mixing with these people over the years was very, very useful to me. It showed me a lot about how I feel, felt about myself. You know, like I felt that I wasn't enough. I felt like if it was just me, it was like there was just a big hole there. And there were times when I was fine, if I was really doing something, especially if I was succeeding at it. And Keith was one of the first ones of these people, not the first one by any means, but one of the first... And, you know, and then he was there saying I was good and I was enough and, you know, that was good for a while. But then that wasn't enough either because, you know, of course he thinks that. We don't think about why or the moment he stops thinking that for a minute, then it's like devastating, right? But if he's just securely thinking that, then it's not enough.

[40:01]

Then I need somebody else. So... So I would find somebody. That's what we're making. Sometimes we're making a self. We're making a self that we can stand to have. It's kind of complicated. It gets kind of messy. It gets kind of confusing for people. And it's very like leaning. Leaning into somebody else and they aren't always there. And it's never enough. It's never enough. Really... It's like the whole has to be enough. It has to be like, where's my attention? Oh, what doesn't feel good? Or what's tender? Oh, I don't feel like enough. I don't feel valued. I don't feel... Yeah. But if I stay with that, with respect and openness...

[41:05]

It turns out, actually, this is a fine person to be. A person with a hole in it, no problem. Really. I mean, what's a hole? I'm walking around, nobody seems to notice it. Other people have holes. They tell me they have holes. So you just kind of fill the hole with your attention. And then the mixing still continues, but it's a lot less graspy. It doesn't, like, I need you to tell me I'm okay, right? And I will use any sneaky means I can use to do that. And we do. We have our strengths and weaknesses, and they're pretty much the same thing. What we're good at, that's what we use to protect ourselves. And we shouldn't try to get rid of that, because it's really what we also have to offer. But it'd be good to sort of notice, oh, I'm using this to try valiantly and ineffectually to protect myself.

[42:16]

That went a little off of your question. Thank you. Yes, Claire. Well, let me start with the first part of what you were just asking. If we vow to be with this body and mind, does it mean more openness to other people? And I think that it does, partly because if we're with this body and mind, one of the things we notice is how much we are trying to get away from it. We're trying to get away from our body and mind. We're trying to get away from a painful situation, an unpleasant situation.

[43:20]

And one of the ways that we do that is to get away from other people. If they aren't in a certain way, we just like... So we kind of get away from ourselves and from other people at the same time. Whereas if we develop, even though we don't quite know how to develop it, but if capacity... for staying with this body and mind, which is I think what Zazen is about, develops, then we can stay with other people. Then we can be there with them. They're doing something. Most of you have heard me say this before, but I'm convinced that the hardest thing for us in any situation is our own response. Something happens. It might be a difficult thing. We might... You know, wish it weren't happening, but the hardest part of it is our own response. So if we can be with our response, then there's more. It doesn't mean that we always stay in the situation.

[44:23]

Sometimes we walk away. Sometimes we run away, you know. But we don't have to just kind of out of habit because we can't stand to be with ourself. And then compassion. Yeah, I think compassion comes naturally from being there. then we see, oh, mostly we see, I'm afraid. I'm afraid, they're afraid. That's kind of the main place where our needing to get away comes from. And it's very understandable, of course. If I think there's a separate me, and I think this world is, I mean, just listen to it described. It's so out of control. Of course we're afraid. Of course we try these little tricks to... protect ourselves. And then we try them, because they worked up to some extent. So it's very understandable, and from that comes compassion. And whatever of that we actually know about ourself, when we look around, we see it.

[45:27]

We may not know the exact name of it or how it works in that person exactly, but you can see, oh, that's what's happening there. They look very angry, but actually they're afraid. You don't necessarily say that, but there's some knowledge of that. So, yeah, I think it leads to compassion, and compassion leads to more compassion. Okay, thank you. Michael? Yeah, coming back to society. Yeah. I'm noticing how what we take as a given, what we see, is really so much constructed already. Yeah. Yeah. This morning I was serving, and you have to hurry to get back to the kitchen to get the balls again. And there was an umbrella sitting against the walk-in, and every time I went by it, because I had to go fast, it was the person sitting there, and it couldn't have been a homeless person. And it had to be three times in a row. It's just what the brain does when there's something there that you can't really interpret yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[46:28]

Very constructed, yeah. And I know it's the same for everything. And even if... In that case, you saw, oh, I just constructed something that I wouldn't call that. But even if it was something that we would call that, it's still very constructed. I have a construct of each of you, including myself. It's not accurate. It's not the outlines aren't the way it is. They're like molecules flying off of us that we don't see. We don't take that into account when we think, Greg. Oh, here come those molecules, you know? Yes, to you. The place of not knowing is this a space of innocence? Like where we need everything fresh for the first time? Oh, uh-huh, yeah. Yes. You know, not necessarily naivete, like...

[47:30]

But to some extent, yes. I mean, you don't act like nothing has happened in the past and walk into situations just naively. But still, we make room for change. When possible, we actually give people a clean slate. We have a difficult interaction with somebody, and the next time we see them, we just bow to them. try to know that we don't know what's really happening there we try not to put them in a box because we know there's so much we don't know yeah well it's gonna be hard to do you know because we've been imprinted with a lot of experience So I think it's more like the no understanding and understanding are like spring and autumn.

[48:35]

They're both there. We don't deny our understanding, but we know it's incomplete. We're not trying to get back. I mean, babyness is a wonderful stage, and they take in a lot. But they do that for good reason, because there are things to learn. You know, and we've learned things, and we don't want to not know them. We just don't want to be tied with them, you know, to, you know, from our own perspective. From my own perspective, I know this, and I'm going to hold on to it. No, you know, there it is. It's in the wide world, but where is it exactly, and how's it functioning? There needs to be some freshness around that. Greg. Yeah. Nice.

[49:37]

Very nice. Yeah. Yeah. Although I that's why I think it's kind of good to like do something we can do, which is like Sazen. I mean, we can't do it, but we can come and sit down. Right. And then as we sit there, we start to notice not knowing. And, you know, after we get over the shock and the fear and the nervousness of that, wonder comes. Pretty. It comes because that's how it is. You know, it's amazing that we're still able to be alive. Yucky. It doesn't seem obvious to me when I'm constructing a self that I already have, or that I think I have, or that I want other people to think, but I'm continuing on, you know.

[50:41]

When I'm like, I'm continuing to construct the self. Yes, this particular self that I like, yeah. And if sometimes I've noticed, like if I move to a different city, or live in a different community, Sometimes I notice that, like, oh, here's an opportunity to create a new self, which seems kind of, like, better than creating an old self. If you create an old self, that's like delusion, right? But then create a new self, like, that's like something better. Yeah. Maybe just the same kind of thing. For me, it's more tricky, like, when we take up different practice positions or something. It's kind of like, like, how can we... How do we walk through different stages or different ways of being without recreating the same self or new self?

[51:42]

It's so easy. We do it all the time. We do it by creating an old self and a new self. When we get a new position or move to a new town, whatever, there are slightly different circumstances, and they make a new me. So then I might have some idea, like, oh, okay, in this position, I am not going to do something I did in that position. Maybe or maybe not. And if I can do that, if I vow to no longer do that, I mean, first of all, it would be a little funny if there was something you really didn't like that you were doing in that old position, to wait to a new position to try to change it. Maybe. How much control do we have over that? Some. I mean, it looks to me like some. I don't really know if we do, but our intention to not be that way or to be some new way is part of it, but it's only part of it.

[52:45]

And we don't make that intention exactly. It's like it arises. Like, oh, I don't want to be like that anymore. Or, oh, I think I'd like to be like that. So where does that come from? We didn't make that exactly. We don't sit down, clean a sheet of paper, and then dream up somebody to be. It comes from, if we move to a new town, or we move to a new position, new stuff comes, and old stuff is there. So yeah, it's very easy, actually. It just happens quite naturally. How can we do that without trying to concretize that new self? How can we live that way and have a new self be created without making it into something?

[53:50]

The same way we do that with our old self, like right now. I think the main way is open your eyes and look. It's not there. There's a lot of continuity. There's a lot of habit. There's a lot of karmic. We have a karmic body and mind, meaning it comes from the past. Our parents and our food we ate and everything are relating with people. There it is. It's all there, but it's not stuck. And it can't be relied on to be there. So... Yeah, I think it's mostly just we fool ourselves. We don't turn our attention to what's really here. We turn our attention to something else, and then we think, oh, there I am. I'm solid because I'm looking over there. I'm looking at that person, or I'm looking at what I want to be. But if we actually look here, we see it's not solid.

[54:52]

It's changing. Thank you. Amy. When we meet, so you're wondering, like, when we meet, that we make awareness. Can you say a little more? I don't know if we would exactly say we make it, but that's the way the senses work.

[56:01]

There's an object and the consciousness meet, or the object and the sensory equipment meet, and then there's awareness. So awareness kind of comes because we have the equipment to have awareness. But if by awareness you mean more like you said attention, like seeing how things are working or something, like insight. Is that what you mean, like more insight into? I'm not entirely sure what I mean. Yeah. Well, partly what I hear and what you say is the aliveness of it all. You know, it's like, yes, we're constantly responding, you know, and a lot of it we don't even know about. We're not supposed to know about. It's just, you know, happening. We are responding. You know, we're responding, having air right now. We're not thinking about that much. know but it's a good thing and some of what we are aware of and you know it would be very different if there were different circumstances thank you yes Curtis

[57:22]

Yes. There are two types of firmly known something that I experience. One is when I can identify this thing that I'm really knowing and holding on to. And the other is when we're in serious form where it's a kind of a tint on my experience, which could be I'm kind of depressed or I'm kind of related and intoxicated by things or I'm kind of, you know, like some tint or something. Yes, yes. And that's much harder to get a It's much harder to see what it is that I'm holding on to. Yes. Or, more to the point, how to get room around it or how to have some play with it so that it can take its natural course. Yeah. You know, I think the tents are so numerous and so deeply ingrained, there's no way we would ever get a hold of them. You know, like... We just are.

[58:31]

We are karmic bodies and minds, so we have a take on things. We have a gazillion takes on things. We respond to, you know, somebody's allergic to peanuts, somebody's, you know, it's just endless. Or maybe that's more of like a physical thing, but, you know, somebody, anyway, you described it well. You know, there's like, there's a tint of something there, and we don't notice it. I think that's fine. The thing is, when it is brought to our attention, to be ready then to notice it. So, you know, we might notice it. We might start noticing, gee, like, you know, some days I feel like, that's terrible. You know, the way that, I don't know what, you know, the way the haunt is happening. It's really bad. And then in a little bit I notice... oh, the denture is really yucky today, and the cereal is... If I notice, it's like, oh, oh, today everything is bad.

[59:34]

Isn't that interesting? Maybe it's something about the way I'm experiencing them today. So maybe we actually come to that, or maybe somebody else points it out to us. Gee, you seem to be in a bad mood today, or you're awfully cheery. So when they... when that information comes to us from anywhere it's really it's the same movement you know it's the same practice it's like can i be here so that when something comes i can be open to it and let it in let it mix with me in the knowing not knowing way that it does rather than maintaining my protective stances which I have going, which is our kind of normal mode. Like, I'm here, and here's how I'm going to be, and here's how the world should be, and I'm going to make it that way as much as I can to protect myself.

[60:36]

That's pretty much what we're all going around doing, and that's what this practice is about counteracting. It's like sit down, be there long enough to develop some capacity to trust, and then things start to loosen up a little bit. And then, you know, if we've got a tent, if it's causing harm, if it's causing pain for ourselves or for somebody else, eventually it will, like, surface. For, I think for years, I must have done zazen pushing down with my hands. I didn't know it. You know, I was just like, but I think I was like, when's the period going to end? Because eventually, I got this really... terrible pain going down my arm. And actually, it's something that tends to happen to women in menopause. There's some little space there where, I don't know, some body worker told me that many of their patients who are in their 50s, women, have this thing.

[61:38]

But I could tell it wasn't just that. It was also my muscles. And I started noticing, oh, when I sit down, I'm pushing, pushing. So, okay, now that I've noticed it, years you know I didn't notice it if I if that's true that's what happened I think it is now I you know now I try to raise my hands because if they get too close to my lap they start pushing so yeah yeah yes Yes. And I'm kind of joyous and liberated from it. And when one of these tints comes down, it seems to be almost like I'm impressed by momentum. It seems to have momentum.

[62:39]

And I say, wow, that'd be a nice thing to let go of. But it doesn't seem to, it seems like it's more complexly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we definitely have karmic tendencies that are deeply rooted. Deeply rooted. And I am cautious about trying to cut them out. I don't think we have the knowledge, really, for how to operate. you know, where their roots go, and again, how our strengths and weaknesses go together and all that. But I think without cutting them out, without deciding this is bad and I need to get rid of it, we can pay attention to it. And then it can shift from, and I think what happens mostly is that the self-protecting part of it can loosen up.

[63:49]

So that the means of perceiving, I mean, there's many different descriptions of what different things it can be, right? The skill can still be there, but the self-protecting part of it can stop functioning. We should end soon. Is there any, maybe this is a good place. I don't see any hands. Great. Thank you very much. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[64:39]

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