It's the truth of the Pachycephalosaurus. Good morning. I am really nervous. The trouble with being nervous is that fear and excitement feel so much alike. I think, mostly, I'm really excited, because I'm going to be talking about stuff that really, really matters to me. So, what I want to talk about, mostly, is the whole idea of imputation.

[01:01]

I guess, over my life, I've noticed how imputation is so easy and so difficult to stop. So easy to do, but difficult to stop. And how I see it is that an idea or a concept arises in the mind, and then, depending on how exciting it is, we begin to fill it with mental concrete. And this concrete has, as one of its primary components, self-interest. If I like it, or if I don't like it. And if I really like it, or really don't like it, I keep pouring more concrete into it, so that, after a while, without my even knowing it, I treat it as if it's real. And not only that, but I act as if it's real. My first practice period was at Green Gulch.

[02:14]

And Reb led it. And I was fascinated by Reb. I'd never seen anybody like him before. Maybe you too. He amazed me, the way he moved. I could never understand anything he said, but I was always impressed that he could even say it. I used to stop by his house when I saw that he was out doing something in his yard, usually cutting grass, I think that's what he did mostly. And I'd stop by, and I still am shy, but I'd say hello, and then he'd usually ask a question. And he'd ask questions like, where do you come from? Or, how's your health?

[03:17]

Once he asked me, why did Bodhidharma come from the West? And I figured, oh, this is really terrific. Somebody of such importance and stature really is as poor with communication skills as I am. And I would think up some snappy, witty answer and give it, just to move the conversation along. I thought we were not off to a good start. And once, what I didn't realize until years later, was that these weren't just poor attempts at communication, they were actually what teachers do to students. When we started reading the Book of Serenity, which I think is rather a strange name for that book, don't you agree? No.

[04:20]

That's usually how the teacher started with the student, by asking some seemingly innocent question. Well, the first doksan I had with him, I went in the room and, let's see, I think I must have said something, about who I am, I think I said something about who I am. And he looked at me and said, who are you? And having arrived at Green Gulch, after many years of therapy and group work, I started telling him who I was. I remember, let's see, I'm a son, I'm a brother, I'm a student, I'm handsome and sexy. Remember, this was 15 years ago. And other nouns and adjectives.

[05:27]

And he sat there, listening, and he let me go on. And I think that's where we left it. I had no idea that I was out of my mind at the time. I would see that much later too. You know, I think, I was thinking the other day how, if somebody asked, you know, who are you? I think we might get a more truthful answer if we just asked Kaya who she was. Can you ask her who she is? Is she asleep? She sounds asleep. Just as well, noble silence. Bubbles in her sleep, even. So I figured if you asked Kaya who are you, she would respond with the truth, which would be probably Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[06:28]

You know, as she does. I think that's closer to it than most of us can come. However, when push comes to shove, we have to say something, don't we? I remember also, Diana was mentioned having difficulty realizing how much somebody disliked her so much. Even before you said that, I had been thinking about this talk and thinking about self, imputation, how imputation really serves self, you know, and how we have a notion of ourselves. And Buddhism really looks very, very carefully and intricately and in a detailed way into this idea of self. And how we, once we have it, we tend to hold on to it. And in fact, we hold on it so tightly we don't even see it anymore. Except when we're rubbed the wrong way or the right way.

[07:29]

There was a, let's see, this must have been maybe 20 years ago. I used to co-lead week-long retreats with a colleague of mine who was also an Episcopal priest and therapist. He incidentally was one of the good therapists. There are many who aren't. So we were sitting in this room, very small room, it was out on a lake somewhere in some retreat center. And, small room, and there were about 20 of us. And the idea of these retreats were there'd be a little teaching about, let's see, what it's like to be a person, or healthy ways to look at oneself, or stuff like that. And I took care of the spiritual end of it in terms of meditation and things like that. And so the first night we were gathered around, the room was rather dim, candlelight.

[08:36]

And he asked us, Michael asked us to take some time and write our own obituary. Which I'd never done before, and most of them hadn't either. And so we did that, and then we went around and read them aloud. And so I read mine, and from what I recall of it, it was in praise of me as a priest of the finest kind. Sorry? Obituary. When you die, they write something about you in the newspaper. If you were somebody. Which reminds me of a tombstone in New England that says, just it says, I was somebody, and who I was is none of your business. So mine was how, oh God, I blushed, maybe I blushed, but at least I'm embarrassed to say so,

[09:51]

how he was kind, always ready to help, always seeking God, that flavor. And it didn't make me sick when I wrote it. So at any rate, so there was, and we went around, and after everyone was done, there was this one woman sitting over there. She must have been, she had gray hair, she must have been late 50s or 60s, and all of a sudden, she started yelling at me. Mr. Sweet and Holy over here, she was yelling at me, and was screaming about how self-righteous I was, and how smug, sitting there, she said, I was sitting there with that smug look on my face, which inside was total and complete shock, but I tried not to show anything,

[10:58]

because I'm a caring, kind, gentle priest, and how self-righteous I was, and how holier than thou, and I thought I was going to die. I remember, I can still remember, feeling completely shocked, unable to move, trapped, almost frozen, wanting to leave my body, but I couldn't get out. And I stayed there, and she went on for quite a while. And I remember Reb was saying how excellently bad we can be. She was perfect, it was art. She slashed that self-image I had to ribbons, ribbons. And, let's see, what happened?

[12:01]

But Michael, who wasn't me, and apparently, he didn't think it was such a big deal, of course, he didn't have to, it wasn't him. But then, so he stayed with her, and they started talking in the group, and come to find out, she was a Roman Catholic, and had always, since she was young, wanted to be a priest. And it was a deep, deep yearning, like any deep vocation can be for her. And the frustration, and the, well, the way that that church does tend to treat and see women, she was left bereft, and humiliated, you know, blah, [...] blah. So, mostly, what she was feeling was envy, envy, and jealousy.

[13:13]

And here she saw this poor fool, me, who was a priest, and can you imagine what that must feel like? To be denied your heart's desire, and then to have some jerk. Who is it? And the high standards that must go along with that. It must have been incredibly painful for her. She said it was. Afterwards, we had, I went to talk with her, and the only wisdom that I could squeeze out of that was, don't ever talk to me that way again. For which I'm sort of sorry. Because over the years, I have come to be grateful to her, because she helped destroy something that would not have served me at all well. Even though I can still, I think maybe,

[14:16]

I still have the mask of the goody-two-shoes priest, but hopefully I can say shit and fuck, like a real person. Well, at any rate, in terms of imputation, one of the things that I love about Buddhism is that it has many, many models of the mind, out of which all this stuff comes from. All of our troubles, and all of our joys. And I was reading the other day, and this person, whose book I have right here, her name is Caroline Brazier, was talking about the difference between the idea of the mind in the West and the East, something I had never quite heard before. She said, in the East, the mind is considered empty, pure, immaculate,

[15:23]

where things, if anything happens in the mind, it always comes from outside, so to speak, sort of as a visitor. For example, in the Eastern mind, a vision is a visitation from outside, a dream is a visitation from outside. Thoughts and feelings, the whole business, they kind of arise and pass through into the mind, where we notice them. So the mind itself is pure and clear and empty, like the jewel in the sutra that we've been chanting. Where, if you hold up a red piece of paper behind it, the jewel appears like a ruby. It takes on redness. Or blue, it looks like a sapphire. Or green, it looks like an emerald. So the mind becomes whatever comes through it. But the it is not the mind. Well, wow.

[16:24]

Think of what we think of the mind as. I think it's kind of a joke when we say to a Western person, okay, now sit still and empty your mind. Do what? Empty my mind? Because in the West, the mind is a repository. It's filled with stuff. Just think of Freud. At least Freud has only three things, the ego, the superego, and the id. But Jung has the ego and not only our personal unconscious, but the collective unconscious that we all share together. Tons and tons and tons and tons of stuff. Not to mention memories and dreams. Well, filled. Filled with stuff. But what if that weren't so? What if that was just a point of view that was slightly twisted from the truth? I wonder. I wonder. And I find that doing this practice is easier

[17:28]

if you have the point of view of an empty mind than a full one. Well, some of the... And again, this is all in relation to the self, the formation of the self. So some of the models in Buddhism that we're all aware of are, number one, the first model is the Four Noble Truths. Where the self arises in the second noble truth, which is our reaction against affliction, which causes more affliction. And one of the reactions is where a self develops, a self appears. And the nature of that self, this person, Caroline Brazier, describes I think rather well. She says, Buddhist psychology offers models of the processes and structures of the mind.

[18:31]

It shows how flight from the existential inevitability of loss, pain, and death leads to delusion, which is a subtle and pervasive refusal to face reality. Instead, we attempt to find and hold onto something that is concrete and substantial. This common mentality is one of grasping, which leads to attachment and creates an accumulation of habit energies, preferences, and behavior patterns that support the illusion of an enduring self that can escape impermanence. Buddhist psychology sees this self as a defensive structure that lacks foundation, yet dominates the ordinary mind. I think that's pretty cool, that the self that we so much love and hate is actually a fortress against suffering that we manufacture out of thoughts and build with mental concrete.

[19:35]

And it's supposed to offer us protection against affliction. Of course it doesn't, does it? The Five Skandhas is another model of the mind and how it works, where the idea of self-interest or an identity begins to be established in each of the steps of the Five Skandhas. And I'm going to talk about that in a minute. Vasubandhu came along, was he 500 years after the Buddha? Somebody who has a brain. Was he 500 years? 800 years. A late comer to the scene. He saw that, wait a minute, something's going on here, because the I that I experienced a few moments ago seems an awful lot like the I right now. So what accounts for this seemingly, I'm not sure, how do you say that? The continuity of a self.

[20:38]

How do you explain that? And then he says, well, you know when we do something karmically, it does produce, it seems to produce effects that stick around. And when the time is right, when the conditions are right, these seeds, so to speak, of karma, sprout. And not just one, many, because of one action. So he made up the manas, consciousness, which I think we would say is the ego, the controller, the one who censors, like I'm the same I that I was a few moments ago, and 30 years ago, and now, the manas consciousness, which of course isn't real, but if it were, it would behave like this. And the alaya consciousness, which is where all the seeds of our behavior are stored, waiting for us, waiting for the right opportunity to sprout. And if I forget to mention it,

[21:39]

I'll mention it now, that when you do an action, that has, that's fueled by greed or hate or delusion, then it produces many seeds. It's like a flower. A flower doesn't just produce one seed, it produces lots and lots of them. So that any action that's been fueled by greed, hate and delusion, produces many, many seeds, just waiting for the opportunity to sprout and grow. So that's why we have to be very careful So anyway, so Vasubandhu came along with those two things and added those to the mental, the mind models. And the, well before that, I guess, the 12-linked chain of causation, which I hope nobody asks a question about. But somewhere in it, there's something called bhava, which is becoming and conceiving a self. But please, don't ask anything about that.

[22:41]

12-linked chain, too complicated for me. Alright. So, let me repeat that again about the self. Flight from the existential inevitability of loss, pain and death leads to delusion, which is a subtle and pervasive refusal to face reality. Instead, we attempt to find and hold on to something that is concrete and substantial. This common mentality is one of grasping, which leads to attachment and creates an accumulation of habit energies, preferences and behavior patterns that support the illusion of an enduring self that can escape suffering and impermanence. Buddhist psychology sees this as a defensive structure that lacks foundation yet dominates the ordinary mind.

[23:42]

I wanted to spend a few moments on looking at the five skandhas. Somebody brought them up yesterday and I don't think we talk about them much in terms of building a self. I've never really heard them linked together. They all seem to be puzzling, separate little chunks of something that did something else. I never quite understood but in reading some of the stuff by these guys, Caroline is a husband too, who is David Brazier, and they are Buddhist teachers. His first introduction to Buddhism was with Jiukennet Roshi from Shasta Abbey and that changed his life and also being involved with Thich Nhat Hanh. So they are teachers of Buddhism and they're also

[24:44]

psychotherapists. I don't mean psychotherapists. I mean psychotherapists, people who hopefully have done their own work and work to help others towards healing and health in their minds where it all happens. And apparently, from what I've seen so far, they're pretty good at it. So at any rate, the five skandhas form, feeling, perceptions, formations, consciousness. I don't find those words very helpful at all. How about you? Because they mean so many different things to us and usually kind of spooky things at that. So the first one, form. You know, you know about the sense organs and all that? Again, remember, always remember, these things aren't real, but if they were, this is the way they would behave. The sense organs,

[25:47]

wherever that is, there's something in them called citta, which is the potency to look at, look for, look for, search, scan the environment. Bodhicitta is the same kind of thing where we look for awakening. We want to awaken. So it's a reaching out, kind of. So these senses aren't just laying back, just being passive, waiting for something to come along. They're looking. They're looking. So form, the form one, is looking for well, anything kind of like distinct, like any, well, form. That's not very helpful, is it? They form, they, well, they form form and they construct form, I suspect. Well, don't press me on that. I'll use an example in a minute. The second one, feeling, we usually think of that

[26:49]

as, well, feeling is a very loaded word, isn't it? Like, feelings. Our culture is not so good with feelings. Feelings can be very frightening and a cause for major affliction from which we will flee at all costs. But the feeling that we mean is the Buddhist, the Buddhist meaning of feeling or the Buddhist idea behind what we call feeling which is, you know, greed, hate and delusion, right? I mean, we either want it, we don't want it or we just get confused. it's attraction, aversion or confusion. And, the feeling that this skanda is, it's the immediate response. You know, you see something, you see, well, I'll wait, I'll wait on that. I'll give an example in a minute. But it's the immediate reaction. Whether we like it, we don't like it or we just don't know. And then,

[27:50]

what clicks in next are pretty soon, pretty immediate are some, what we call perceptions. And those are our personal associations from the past. Personal associations from the past. What this thing means or what it implies or what it threatens or what it promises. And the next one, the fifth, the fourth one are what we call mental formations. And those are the things that come later on. The ruminations. You know, just for example, like the meeting that really takes place after the meeting. You know, where you have an event, you're sort of blown away by it. Then you spend the next three weeks trying to process it. Those are mental formations. Again, they're not real. But they have tremendous force. So what all this leads to is the fifth one, which is consciousness. But it's not just consciousness, consciousness. It's dualistic consciousness,

[28:51]

a special kind of consciousness, where where you finally get to the point where your self-interest has gotten so strong that the world is now fully divided into me and everything else. And it's me and either I want it, some of these things, or I don't want them, or I'm just confused by the whole mess. So, so it's a special kind of consciousness. It's not just being awake. An example, a chocolate bar. So everybody, did you just have a formation, a form? Or even worse, if you see one, you know, if you see a chocolate bar, the eyes are looking for a form anyway, and boing, there's one. And, and, to make it even better, it's an attractive form, an attractive form. So,

[29:51]

if you were to stop right there, you would say, ah, chocolate bar, yum, eat. And that would be it. But, if the, if the, did I say two, the attraction? Yeah, attractive one. So, so it can, if it's, depending on how strong the attraction is, the reaction to it, then I wouldn't just be able to say yum, eat. Right? Lots of other things would come into play. So, if there were greed involved, that's a whole different ball game. Because then, I would start remembering, I would, chocolate bar, ah, yes, I wonder what kind it is, ah, oh good, it's not dark chocolate, it's milk chocolate, the real thing. Makes me, makes me feel really good. Endorphins, it creates endorphins, who could ask for more? Ah, okay, so then, ah, I might, ah, so,

[30:52]

I could have, ah, feelings of glee, ah, then I might have, jeez, do I really need this right now? We're just about to have supper, and if I eat it, I'm not going to eat any of that stuff, am I? Ah, well, who cares? Eat it. Ah, or, it could be, ah, the, the immediate, um, um, associations, ah, the perception, could, um, get a little stronger, and I would, ah, say things like, do I really need this? Should I have it? And then, if I'm not careful, I'll start, ah, on the mental formations, which would be something like, ah, guilt, or, I'm so undisciplined, or, ah, self-blame, or, a deflated self-image. These are all very technical-sounding concepts that I wrote down this morning. you, you know what I mean, though? All of a sudden,

[31:54]

it's all about you. It's not about the chocolate bar, which doesn't, couldn't, couldn't care less whether it was eaten or not. Maybe, maybe. That, that's an imputation, right? Um, but then, so then, ah, who you are comes into play, what kind of a person you are, what kind of a person you think you are, which is just the same. Ah, okay, so, and then, ah, what that does is it reaffirms a sense of, ah, me as this, this, this and this, or this, this, this and that, and, ah, this poor chocolate bar. So, the world and I are separate, separated, okay? And the world is either, is something, is a bunch of objects to be either desired or hated or just confused about. All right, so, ah, for another example, somebody mentioned meetings yesterday, meetings and how much we love them. Um,

[32:57]

ah, meetings, meetings. So, the form part of the Skanda thing about meetings is, ah, maybe just the idea we're going to have a meeting, ah, a meeting, hmm, and then, then an immediate reaction, ah, meeting, oh no, but I wanted to, I wanted to build something in the shop, right? And then, ah, it might, ah, progress to, ah, ooh, ooh, meetings. I don't like the way I feel in meetings. I don't like the way we treat each other in meetings. or, um, oh boy, another meeting. And it's about something I really enjoy. This is going to be terrific. I can't stand it. It's going to, we're going to have to wait another minute. Um, so, ah, depending on my, my self-interest involved or how much investment I put in it depends on whether I'm going to suffer or not, you know. if it's, well, let me just go on with that. Um, often,

[34:00]

let's see, let's see, so, I can walk in the room and there will be around the table, that's the form, and then I'll notice, oh, oh, look, look who's seated in that place. Why are they, why are they there? Or, ah, let's see, oh, gosh, I can't hear anything. The, the creak's so loud. in other words, I'm, I'm, ah, well, that's perception. Ah, sorry, I'm so clumsy with this. But, ah, what, what often will arise, even before you walk into the room, um, if, if it's, if it's going to be a charged event, is, oh, gosh, I'll start ruminating already. So, so things like, ah, let's, ah, let's see, oh, what, if it's something that I'm, that's important to me, ah, oh, gosh, will they listen to me? What if, what if they do? What if they don't?

[35:01]

Um, what if, what if somebody throws a fit? What if I do? Ah, what if I throw a fit and they ignore me? How am I going to have to hurt them back? You know, things like that. Or, is that person going to be there again? You know, so, so that the ruminating part, um, already puts me at odds with what's going to happen, which hasn't even happened yet. So, in other words, ah, the world is, is split into pieces. The, ah, okay, it wouldn't occur at this point, usually, that, oh, well, it's a meeting. Let's just see what happens. Isn't that, isn't that a unique idea? Um, so, so that leads me to the, ah, question, the last question, which is, um, how do we, how do we practice with this stuff? Ah, like for, with, um,

[36:02]

with the way it is. How do we practice with the way we are? You know, the five skandhas, it's not really a design flaw, it's just the way we are. It's how, it's how that, the beautiful mind, um, as is expressed in each of us individually, how, how it behaves, you know, how it seems to behave. And if there's something unpleasant, how, how we want to get away from that. Ah, and we, we do that by, you know, building this self, which, often gets us into more trouble than, than it seems like it's worth. So, so in, in our, in our school, um, what we're, I think, one thing that's, um, in these models, there are, there are, um, escape hatches in, in each of these models. Ah, for example, in the four noble truth model, the escape hatch comes after, is the third, is the third noble truth, which is, um, nirodha, um, which means that,

[37:05]

as you see this self arising, if you're lucky to see it, ah, or you see that you're trying to distract yourself from what's really going on, from what's painful, for example, if it's an affliction, ah, and somebody said yesterday, even joy is an affliction, yes, joy is an affliction, ah, if, um, if we want to keep it. Ah, um, so when an affliction arises, and we try to escape, just to notice that, and instead of trying to do something about it, to stop. I think that's where practice comes in, ah, ah, that's so important. We're learning to stop, we're learning to stop, stop, ah, the formation of things that aren't real, ah, that, that we think will protect us. Did you just ask her who she was? Ah, ah, ah, ah, Oh, silence again. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ah, ah, so, so in the Four Noble Truths, there's a Third Noble Truth, where we're asked to, ah, stop the leap,

[38:05]

to, to not leak, to not move, to not act, but to see if we can stand, ah, what we're feeling. And by doing that, ah, it gets transformed. The affliction actually, ah, becomes the fuel for awakening. And the five skandhas, it's a similar thing where if we're lucky enough to notice, if we've been practicing enough to be able to see what our mind actually does, how these things operate, then we can see that this is just mental fudge that we're creating. It's not really real. And to stop, and to stop. And one of the things that in both of the Four Noble Truths and in the skandhas, there's a thing about withdrawing our mental stuff from the object. For example, like if I'm suffering, one of the things that we do is to find something

[39:12]

to blame, something that's causing it, and focus our energy that we're suffering with to focus it onto them, so it kind of takes it off us a little bit, which of course creates massive suffering in itself, but we don't know that until later. So one of the things to do is to drop the object. Does that make sense? All right. Like for example, if somebody says something to me and it hurts, then instead of feeling that hurt, I can convert it into anger by blaming them, by blaming them. And who knows what that other person was doing or thinking, I mean, who knows? Most likely it wasn't personal since not much is. So in dealing with the hurt, to deal with the hurt, you withdraw the hate, say, no,

[40:15]

it's not about them, it's not about them. Well, it is a little bit, but not completely. I can live with that. And to deal with the hurting self, the idea of myself there is that I'm not supposed to be hurt, everything's supposed to be nice, which is a fake, completely fabricated self. So then I'm forced to deal with just the pain of living. Where was I? I was in a bookstore before practice period and saw, saw, what did I see? I saw, oh, a cartoon. It was about Jungian symbolism, yeah, Jungian stuff. And it showed a king, no, it showed a king killing and eating a wolf in one frame. The next frame was, it showed a wolf killing and eating a king.

[41:17]

And it said, eating and being eaten is a fully experienced life. How about that? So in other words, the good with the bad, the pleasant and the unpleasant, that's a full life. You can try to get just one half of it, but it won't work, and the other one will feel like a horrible intrusion. So eating and being eaten is the experience of a full life. Oh, I have no idea where I was going with that. So some of the practices, so one of them is withdrawing our stuff from an object, so that we can actually go through the affliction itself. You know how if you really grieve, for example, that somehow something new opens?

[42:21]

You know that, don't you? Or the pain from something awful that happens, if you actually go through it and don't try to pretend it isn't there, or numb it, or do something else to distract, that actually it changes you and opens you up. It's like having a broken heart, sometimes that's the only way the heart will open, so to speak. But if you stay with it, stay with it, with faith, with trust, that helps. Zazen, of course, is a practice, and Dogen is very clear about what to do when you find yourself in the midst of the five skandhas, or in the truth of affliction. As you're sitting there, he says, put aside all involvements, and suspend all affairs. Don't think good or bad, don't judge true or false, give up the operations of mind, intellect,

[43:27]

and consciousness. Stop measuring thoughts, ideas, and views. Okay? Ready, go. You know, I've seen those for a long time, and thought, what's he talking about? How do you do that? I mean, I'm thinking about that, and he's saying, don't do that. And I'm judging whether this is a true thing or not a true thing, you know, how do you do it? Perhaps he just meant do it, you know, when you find yourself in the middle of the stuff. Maybe he actually wants us to put it aside, put it aside for now, put it outside the door where it will wait. Maybe he says to stop thinking good or bad, to stop judging true or false, to give up making more mental concrete. Maybe he means what he says. Bodhidharma, same thing, sees all stories, sees mental ruminations, coughing and sighing,

[44:32]

mental ruminations. He says, when you see them, just stop them. Don't hate them, or don't hate yourself because of them, which is to compound the whole mess, but to just stop it. There's a, one of the Christian mystics said, you can no longer control your mind creating thoughts than you can control the wind. Your job is to stop them. You can't control the mind producing thoughts any more than you can control the wind. All you can do is to stop them when you've seen they've arisen. You just stop. So the point of all this is that when the conditioning, when our conditioning is abandoned,

[45:32]

that's when the stopping occurs, when we know, know. When we can do that, we're abandoning our conditioning, because our conditioning says, don't stop, don't stop, go on, go on, you'll be relieved from suffering if you keep going, keep going, keep going. But if we stop it, then what happens is that the manas consciousness, the ego, it starts to relax. It doesn't feel like it has to control everything any more. The alaya consciousness, all the seeds, they settle. And something starts to well up. And what do you suppose that is? It's the buddhata. The buddhata starts to well up. And that's our buddha nature, which isn't dual, it's not dualistic. And the thing with all this is that when the ego and the alaya, the karmic stuff, when

[46:33]

they're active and functioning at full blast, there's not a chance in hell, no, there's not a snowball's chance in hell of the buddhata being experienced or having it arise. It's always there, but we can't see it. And so I think our practice is to deal with the manas consciousness and the alaya consciousness so that they can ease and settle and back off. It takes a lot of kindness to do this practice, and patience, and perseverance, as you all know. A lot of compassion and tenderness towards yourself to have these things begin to settle and not be afraid, not to be afraid. So I think that's enough about that. Other than hearing Kaya tell us who she is, poetry often does it.

[47:35]

I'm not so good with poetry myself. I have no idea why. I don't seem to have gotten the gene. But this one that I want to share with you, because it actually is one of the few ones that did make an impact on me a long time ago, 30-something years ago. And it's a poem by, let's see, somebody who lived in the, I think, 16th century in England. He was a simple, poor parish priest. And one of the greatest mystics that the—oops, excuse me, I'm having a feeling—oh, goodness. Embarrassing but pleasurable. One of the greatest mystics that the—oops, excuse me—the Church of England ever had.

[48:45]

And so what it describes is an encounter between a person, probably much like us, who is invited to a feast by—excuse me, goodness—divine love. Pardon me, I didn't know this was going to happen. Do you realize I'm touched? Sorry. There's a thing I've done on Skit Night about being from Maine and how we show emotion. So as far as I was concerned, I was completely naked and you all knew what was going on. But inside, I'm touched and humbled and all that stuff.

[49:48]

So it's divine love and divine compassion invites this person, an ordinary person, into a feast. And what ensues is a struggle for that person that can't accept this beautiful, kind offer and puts up quite a fight. And finally, it gets resolved. I think it gets—yeah, that's all I'll say. So, it says, it says, Love, bad me welcome, yet my soul drew back, guilty of dust and sin. But quick-eyed love, observing me grow slack from my first entrance in, drew nearer to me, sweetly questioning if I lacked anything.

[50:52]

A guest, I answered, worthy to be here. Love said, You shall be he. I, the unkind, ungrateful, ah, my dear, I cannot look on thee. Love took my hand. And smiling, did reply, Excuse me. Oh, excuse me. Love took my hand, and smiling, did reply, Who made the eyes but I? Truth, Lord, but I have marred them. Let my shame go where it doth deserve. And know you not, says love, who bore the blame? My dear, then I will serve. You must sit down, says love. Oh, excuse me.

[51:59]

You must sit down, says love, and taste my meat. So I did sit and eat. Oh, goodness. That's all I have to say. Are there any questions or comments while I regain my composure? Oh, goodness. Oh, Aneel, are you leaving? Oh, yeah, yes. Well, you're welcome. Oh, George Herbert.

[53:01]

Hmm, yeah. Sonia. I paid so much attention to this poem, but I just wanted to thank you. I think I never, you actually brought it alive. You know, because I've heard this poem before, but I never really, I don't think it penetrated as much as this aliveness. Thank you. Michael. I think in Christian, this note of love comes over so strongly. They are extremely powerful. Very, very, very, very powerful. It's not a lot. That's not a big focus in Zen, but it's certainly there.

[54:03]

Yeah, you know why? That's because Zen Buddhism came from Maine. It went from Maine to China, to Japan. You know, I was thinking about that the other night, how George Herbert is sort of like a Christian roomie. A roomie, you know? What bigger lover is there than a roomie? But you know, it's in our stuff. If you read, well, only because I've been reading it, the Den Koroku, the transmission of the lamp, for example, the exchanges between the ancestors and their students, who become ancestors, are so tender. It's the most exquisitely touching exchange. For example, like, I think, was it Ananda?

[55:11]

Asked Ma Kakasho, when Ananda was ready, he was ready to pop. You know, just ready to wake up, and Ma Kakasho could sense it. And Ananda says, Teacher, did you get anything else with that robe and bowl? And that was just the perfect question for intimacy. And Ma Kakasho seized it. Yes, yes. And in other places where the teacher will invite the student when it's time for that kind of intimacy, like one of the other questions was, Teacher, what's beneath that robe? How tender, how tender. And the answer was intimacy. Intimacy. So we have it. It's rather subtle, I think, a lot of the times,

[56:15]

but it's very, very tender, very deep, I think. A real, where it's no longer two. It's no longer two. Who could ask for more? But it's not, there's no sentiment, not much sentiment, or flowers, other than one flower. Yeah. Yeah, it's sort of like if you're being courted, your suitor, instead of bringing your bouquet, brings you one flower. Oh. Is that all you could find? But one flower can say an awful lot. Uh-huh. I, let's see, I want to go back to the first thing you said. You wanted to talk about imputation, and then there are a lot of things that go into allowing that to process.

[57:20]

And then I was thinking about this last thing where we ended up with love, and somehow I think of that also as an imputation, or anyway, and I think sometimes people say to me, you know, Madra really loves you. I don't know about that. In fact, I kind of doubt it. But I know he knows where he gets his food. So, anyway, I think this love that's in this poem is something different maybe than the imputational love. Yeah, it's not involved in self. There's, like, imputations that, imputations usually involve self. Like, I see myself in other people, or other people and things are valuable

[58:25]

only because how they relate to me, that kind of thing. But there is a way, the buddhata operates without that kind of self-interest. There is no self-interest. There are no selves. So it's a genuine giving, a genuine sharing, a genuinely open communion, I guess, with what's really going on. There's no me in between. There's nothing in between me and what's going on, because there is no me, and there's actually nothing going on either. So that kind of love, it's... For example, like, Blanche is my teacher, and I remember I was not getting along so well with Blanche, and I went to see Norm, and I said, Do you think I've made a mistake? Oh, God. That's how I felt, that I may have made an error here

[59:26]

in having Blanche as my teacher. And we talked about it, and he said, Well, no, if, let's see, you know, if she were really charismatic or really popular, you probably wouldn't get any time with her. So it's good to have somebody who might not be so good. You can spend a lot of time with them. I said, OK. And as it turned out, he was completely right, and that somewhere, we started getting very close. After our fights with each other, I often saw her in the beginning as what I called a mommy cocktail. I mean, like, she was all that my mother was and worse. In other words, she was the perfect vessel for transference. She was my mother and worse. But the cool thing was that she knew she wasn't,

[60:31]

so we could talk about it, and we did. And there was a time when we were studying together, just the two of us, the transmission of the lamp, and I left those sessions just amazed. I don't want to say on a cloud, because it was a very grounded cloud, but in love, I left in love. And it wasn't about me, it wasn't about her, it was what happened between us, that kind of particular sharing and trust that develops, you know, between, I guess, a true teacher and a stumble-bum student. But something happens in that kind of intimacy, you know, which our school values highly. That's where, oh, yeah, if you ever get a chance to have a true teacher, do it. Do it. It's marvelous.

[61:33]

Love. Don't you agree? In the quote that you read by the English Buddhist teacher, in the beginning it says something about the existential inevitability of pain and loss, etc. Yeah. Why do you think it says existential? Existential, I guess. Why doesn't she say the inevitability of, in the face, she's saying we develop, you know. Well, when I hear existential, it means, like, what's really going on, or in real life. Just by being alive, just by existing, this is what is part of it. It's not like there's been a mistake. Do you have that idea of existential? Where's Mako? Mako. Isn't that what it means? Existential means, like, what's happening? Well, existentialism, you know, I didn't get there in philosophy. Okay, that's what it means.

[62:37]

Yeah. Yeah. When you were talking about the question of, is it possible? And does it bother? So when you see the self, that it exists, like, from one moment to the next, and so it continues. And I'm thinking about that, and that's true. But other people, and other things, too, are like that. You know, especially other selves. Like other, my ideas of other people. I might not necessarily be thinking about how I existed a couple minutes ago, but definitely everybody else has, like, their fixed way. So I might be empty, but as soon as I look outside, like, there's this person, that person. And I remember our interactions two hours ago. And, you know, is that part of the same thing? And I'm not sure what my question is. Same as what? As Bako, like, the self.

[63:40]

Oh, I told you not to ask. I was going to say, we can ask about that. There's other things, isn't there? No, just the 12-link chain. At any rate, we selve everything. We try to put a self onto everything. Yeah. Like, you know, you go into a room with somebody else, and then you look around, then you leave. And then if asked what you see in the room, there'll be two different stories. Mainly because I saw what myself is, what myself wants, what I like, what I don't like. Somebody else would see something differently. Or if you describe an event, you know, like police are trying to determine what happened, and they get an account from eyewitnesses, and they're all different. So we put our self onto everything if we're not careful. Does that make sense? Yes. Yeah, all right.

[64:40]

Yeah. And, of course, there isn't, you know, like for me to tell you who you are, I'd be telling you who I am in you. And that's all. Oh, gosh. Dale? So given that, how can we ever be intimate? Isn't that the question? Isn't that the question? How can you ever get to a point where you're actually selfless with somebody else? What's that take? Yes, you do. It takes immense trust and faith and willingness to risk and to be open and vulnerable. Except for that. It may be private. Yes. Nothing like being private with 50 people. Marco? I was going to ask you about the practice instruction part of this.

[65:47]

Yeah. Which is to just stop. Uh-huh. And that's to let, I mean, things are going to arise. Uh-huh. And then to just stop. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yep, to stop. And then they arise again. Yes, they do. Yes. Arise, stop, arise, stop. Over and over [...] again. Because the mind isn't going to stop producing thoughts. It's what it does. It's its job. It's like popcorn. They just keep coming. Just keep coming. Sometimes it slows down. Uh-huh. Sometimes it speeds up. Uh-huh. Yeah. And so if it starts to slow down, maybe one period of zazen, it starts to slow down. What do you do? You don't do anything. You just keep doing this. You do this practice like, like now you've got, what, what, three more days? Three more days. Well, almost four. And if you keep doing this practice of just trying to allow things to be as they are,

[66:54]

which doesn't that sound arrogant? Doesn't it make, that we, that we do not allow things to be as they are? Hmm. So if you do that, practice sitting here, you'll notice. I mean, you know this. Otherwise you wouldn't be here at all. That it slows down, as you say, all the stuff, the controlling and the discriminating and the chopping up and the dicing. So that, like, you'll go outside and you'll see, like, like one of our bedraggled bamboo trees and it will just be glistening in the sun. And you know, what joy, what joy. Or you'll be sitting eating, eating lunch and you'll look over there and say, oh my God, they are so beautiful. Uh-huh. Right.

[67:56]

No. Well, so did Mike. Didn't you? Oh. Oh, you're a ventriloquist. Yes? The aspect that you brought out of saying no, saying no to these talks. Is that not in itself bringing in more judging, discriminating aspects to the mind? Could. Not necessarily. I mean, it's like, you know, when I say that, I'm like, oh my God, I sound like Nancy Reagan. Just say no. But not necessarily. When I'm, like, for example, I sit, sit over there and I can spend time. Oh, actually, it was about, well, the last two days, it's been about now.

[69:02]

And every now and then, when it wasn't too delicious to, I mean, I enjoy this. I enjoy ruminating and thinking, right. But just for practice sake, I would every now and then say, oh, wait, wait, wait. No, no, no. Not right now. Not right now. And give myself a rest. It's more like that. There's no slapping involved. It's more, oh, just for now, I'm going to practice awareness, number one, to notice what's happening. And practicing, I want to be very careful what words I use. Because they can seem manipulative and controlling. But just to say, no, not right now. I'll go back to actually life as it is right now. Which includes very interesting planning and thinking. But not to go on with it. And not to keep it going and to get higher and higher and higher. Does that make sense? Yeah.

[70:03]

I guess there's a question about whether the nerve is actually something extra that's being added on. And whether just the seeing of thought, thought then doesn't need to be there. Oh, yes. It doesn't need to be there. Oh, yes. Right, no. Thought arises and somehow there's clarity in that moment. And so thought is seen. That's what arises. And in that clear seeing dissolves. And then there's another arising of something. Well, yeah. And it seems like that no is an additional thing that's added on that itself that needs to be let go of. Oh, yeah. Well, maybe. It's like being a priest, ordained all the time, you know, being a priest. Some of us need extra help. Priests, me, like me, need extra help. Need to have the heat turned up or need to have extra helps like saying no, for example.

[71:12]

I don't know as if I actually say no. It's more, you have to be pretty sharp to notice that you're involved, that you're seduced, almost mesmerized by thought and feeling. Don't you think? Some of us, I guess, can do it, notice pretty easily. But some of us else, I guess the no probably is extra, but needed in this case. I'm going to stop. Please stop. I think it's... Hi. Marita. As far as, you know, having a tradition that's like from Maine and not very demonstrative, it seems to me that maybe it's more, you know, Christian mystics call it via negativa. And then all these instructions like you were talking about earlier about watching the seeds of karma and letting them settle.

[72:16]

But actually instructions are just for us to realize that peace of love. It's just more coming from a point of view of don't do this, don't do this. And then maybe not wanting to use the word love so much because as Sophia was pointing out, it gets very twisted. I don't really trust that saying, ground of love. Yes. Yes. It certainly does arise, doesn't it? In practice, don't you all find that? That a great tenderness arises just by doing this practice? I guess we don't talk about it much. I think it's pretty unavoidable though. Yes. Yes. Behaviors based on the three. Same thing. Well, it's still, you know, if I do a wholesome act, if I do it, then I've created seeds.

[73:23]

They'll be wholesome seeds, but they're still seeds. I'm not free from karma. Do you know what I mean? It still creates karma. I think the selfless acts, good luck, which are unselfconscious acts, are few and far between. Although I think the more that the buddhata is able to flourish, maybe, the more that happens. You know, where you do something and there is no effect, there's no residue, there's nothing unleft. I don't mean effect, but there's no residue, there's nothing left undone. It's a complete selfless act. I think those actually do happen. Does that make sense? Toby, you'll have to tell me. You'll have to tell me. Yes. Yeah. Anything else?

[74:23]

Yeah. Well. Sorry? Sure. Let's see. Other than, like, pink elephant. Did something happen in your heads? So you can see that one arise, right? But most of them don't. You don't. You don't see them. You don't see where they come from. You only see them after they've started. You know, after they've been going for a little while. Like nanoseconds, maybe. Who? What? Did you hear what she said?

[75:36]

Yes. Is that the last thing? Um, I could try. Well. Love bade me welcome. Yet my soul drew back, guilty of dust and sin. But quick-eyed love, observing me grow slack from my first entrance in, drew nearer to me, sweetly questioning if I lacked anything. A guest, I answered, worthy to be here. Love said, you shall be he. I, the unkind, the ungrateful?

[76:37]

Ah, my dear, I cannot look on thee. Love took my hand, and, smiling, did reply, Who made the eyes but I? Truth, Lord, but I have marred them. Let my shame go where it doth deserve. And know you not, says love, who bore the blame? My dear, then I will serve. You must sit. I can't do it. You must sit down, says love, and taste my meat. So I did sit, and eat. May our intention...

[77:30]

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