This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good morning. I just opened my book and I found a poem that somebody had written about Rohatsu. And it goes like this. Day and night in the chilly hall, the little group sits cross-legged. I try to forget myself, press on with the task, but the week goes by without enlightenment. Knees aching and tired of making the effort. A woman asks this morning, why am I doing this? I know better than to try to answer. When I open my mouth, it will be for lunch.

[01:02]

So today, we're going to look at the second talk of Suzuki Roshi on the Sandokai. Of course, it starts out The mind of the great sage of India is intimately transmitted from west to east. So that is from India to China. And that was yesterday's talk. And I mean last time's talk. And today's talk is, well, human faculties are sharp or dull. The way has no northern or southern ancestor. Can you hear me okay? Okay. In the back. The guys in the front can hear. Oh that reminds me about hearing.

[02:07]

When the soku comes out and makes an announcement during the meal I would like you to please say excuse me and slowly and with a loud voice say what you have to say otherwise it's like what was that? Thank you. While human faculties are sharp or dull, the way has no northern or southern ancestor. So this southern or northern ancestor, as you know, is about the sixth ancestor and the fifth ancestor. the dispute between the southern and northern schools back in the early days.

[03:10]

The northern school and the southern school was split between the two of them and the transmission of the Dharma, who actually was the sixth patriarch, ancestor. So this sentence While human faculties are sharp or dull. Suzuki Roshi says this is not such an important statement, but actually it's an interesting statement. Because what does that mean? While human faculties are sharp or dull. Some people are smarter than others, right? But what does that mean, smarter than others or quicker than others or something? So when I think about this, I think sharp or dull could be intellectual or intuitive. I think that's more accurate. Some people approach things in an intellectual way, which is systematic, and other people approach things in a more intuitive way, which...

[04:24]

is without words or without concepts. So it could also be methodical and sudden. So methodical is like step by step. Most Buddhist practices are methodical. Zen is more intuitive, direct understanding, rather than little by little. Steps to Parnassus or Steps to Enlightenment. The Tibetan system is so well worked out and you do one practice and then you do the next practice and it all leads up to enlightenment hopefully at the end. But Buddhist Zen practice, you walk to the end of the pier and jump into the ocean and start swimming. That's Zen practice.

[05:26]

And it's not step-by-step practice. Suzuki Roshi, I remember saying, when I was young, I thought it was step-by-step practice, but then I realized it's not step-by-step practice. It's jumping off. He didn't say this, but it's like jumping in the ocean and learning how to swim, even when you don't know how. So I think that these are more accurate terms to use because they say something. Whereas while human faculties are short for dough, there is no sort of the northern or southern ancestor. So the northern ancestors, Wei, according to Shenhui, who was an advocate for the sixth ancestor, and politicized the Platform Sutra of the Sixth Ancestor, criticized Jinshu of being too intellectual or too methodical in his understanding and said that the northern school

[06:54]

was based on more intellectual and methodical way. But as we shall see, there's no special way. If we start dividing into one way or another, then we get lost and we think this is right and the other is wrong. So actually, while human faculties are sharp on dough, some people It's better for some people to practice in an intellectual or methodical way. And it's better for some people to practice in a more intuitive way because we have different propensities. So I'm going to read, well, yeah, look at this chapter. One of the things that Suzuki Roshi discusses here are the three aspects of potentiality, or ki, three different aspects of potentiality.

[08:05]

So he says, in my first talk, which was the last one, I explained the meaning of the title, san, do, kai, and the first line, the mind of this great sage of India. I would like to tell you about the background of this poem and why the eighth ancestor in China, Sekito Musai Daishin, wrote it. When Daiman Konin, Konin was the fifth ancestor before Daikanino, the sixth ancestor, when Daiman Konin, the fifth ancestor, announced that he was going to give Dharma transmission to someone, All the monks thought that, among them, of course, Jinxiu, who was, I'll explain that a little bit, would be the one to receive the transmission. So Jinxiu was a great scholar. And that's what he was accused of being.

[09:08]

Jinxiu was a great scholar, and later he went to northern China and became a great teacher. That's called the northern school. But actually, Eno, who was pounding rice in the corner of the temple, received the transmission and became the sixth ancestor. So, of course, Eno, I don't want to go through this whole story because it's a whole thing in itself, but he was a young guy. Nobody knows how old he was, but when he came to the sixth, he heard about... He heard about Konian, the fifth ancestor, and he wanted to see what this was all about. So when he went to be interviewed, the fifth ancestor said, well, who are you?

[10:12]

And he said, well, I'm, you know, who I am. And he said, well, what do you want? He said, I want to find my Buddha nature. I want to become Buddha. Or something like that. And then the fifth ancestor said, where are you from? He said, I'm from the South. He said, well, people in the South have no Buddha nature. And Dogen, of course, uses this no Buddha nature to express what the meaning of Buddha nature is. It is not no Buddha nature, it is Buddha nature. Buddha nature is no Buddha nature. So he takes it in a different direction. So anyway, Jinshu's school was called Hoku Zen, or Northern Zen, and Eino's school spread through the south and was called Nan Zen, or Southern Zen.

[11:15]

Later, after Jinshu's death, northern Zen became weaker while southern Zen became stronger, but in Sekito's time, northern Zen was still powerful. So the sixth ancestor, Eino, had many disciples, and we count 50, but there must have been more. The youngest was Kataku Jin, or Shenhui, a very alert and active person who denounced Jinshu's Zen pretty strongly. Shenhui was the youngest of the fifth ancestor's students, but he was very bright. So we cannot completely accept his teaching. If you have studied the Platform Sutra of the Sixth Ancestor, you know that Jinshu's teaching is harshly denounced there. The sutra may have been compiled by someone under the influence of Kataku Jin. Anyway, there was some conflict between Eino's southern Zen and Jinshu's northern Zen.

[12:18]

And Sekita wanted to clarify this dispute from his own viewpoint. That's why he wrote the Sandokai. He wanted to let his understanding was that there should not be any conflict, because there was a big conflict. And at that time, sudden enlightenment was being touted as the way to go, and gradual enlightenment was the way for sissies. actually sudden and gradual, are not in conflict. If we think that they're different, then your understanding is not so good. So this is the essence of the poem.

[13:21]

So the poem begins. The mind of the great states of India is intimately transmitted from west to east. So Sekito's understanding is that the true teaching of the great sage, Shakyamuni Buddha, includes both the southern school and the northern school without any contradiction. Although the teaching of the great sage may not be completely understood, still it reaches everywhere. If you have the eyes to see or the mind to understand the teaching, you will see that it is not necessary to be involved in such a dispute because some of the descendants of Eno and Jinshu didn't completely understand the teaching of Buddha. They got into a dispute. From Sekito's point of view, there's no need for contention. You know, in Asia... There are many schools of Buddhism, and in Japan there are several schools of Buddhism, and in Zen there are various schools.

[14:36]

Often the Rinzai school and the Soto school are two of the most prominent. there's always been, you know, kind of each school has its own way and doesn't interfere with the other. And the Rinzai school thinks that it's the best and criticizes the Soto school. Soto thinks it's the best and criticizes the Rinzai school and so forth. And the Buddhist sects also have these kinds of disputes. But actually in America, Americans are far more tolerant. actually of differences, I think, because America is made up of differences. What actually makes this country so powerful is its diversity. And so we not just tolerate, but we respect other practices and other schools.

[15:43]

And we don't have that kind of, you know, those kinds of conflicts, I think, here. Yet. We may at some point. But we don't seem to have that. We seem to respect other practices and so forth. When we first started practicing in the 60s, every teacher had their students, and we didn't interact at all. There was no interaction between the various school groups. teachers' practices with the students. But then in the 70s and then the 80s, people started visiting each other. And then now there are more and more interconnectedness and people practice in different places, you know, and so forth. So it's more easy to do that. So I think that's good. But in the beginning, all the practice places were pretty isolated.

[16:48]

because the teachers just wanted to have their teaching to their students and not get caught by some other teaching. I remember Suzuki Roshi saying, when you really know what your practice is, you really know what your practice is, and you're grounded in your practice, then you can go visit other places. because you know who you are and you don't get pulled around by things. And you can actually interact and enjoy what you're doing. So Suzuki Roshi is intimately transmitted, that line that I was talking about, which is mitsuni literally means exactly... without a gap between the two. The main purpose of the sandokai is to explain reality from two sides.

[17:53]

As I said, san means many and do means one. What is many and what is one? Many are one and one is many. So even though you may say many and many things do not exist separately from each other, they are closely related. If so, They are one. So this is, when he talks about transmission, you know, the transmission of the teaching, it means without a gap. Transmission means no gap. That's one meaning of transmission. But even though they are one, the one appears as many. He says to be, I mean, the way we... edited it, it says to be, but even though they are one, they appear as many. So many is right and one is right.

[18:57]

Even though we say one, we cannot ignore the various beings like stars and moons, animals and fish. And from this point of view, we may say that they are interdependent. When we discuss the meaning of each being, we may have many things to discuss. when we conclude that reality is in fact just oneness, the whole discussion will take place with this understanding of the unity of one and many. So that's basically the introduction. One appears as many, and many appear as one. So if you have a question, you don't have to wait for me to get finished till the end. You can ask a question if you want. But wait until I finish my sentence. Wait until there's a cadence and then come in. But if you have any question about any of this, just ask a question.

[20:02]

Yeah. That's OK. I had a question about the part where you were talking about sharp or dull. Yes. Being sharp or dull, being methodical or intuitive, and Zen is more intuitive than methodical. And then, so this idea that whether you're intuitive or sort of methodical or intellectual, whatever your proclivity is, you can still practice. And I guess my question is, challenge for me in Zen is that I'm really intellectually driven, intellectual, methodical. And so with people having different proclivities, does that mean that they should just go to a practice that suits them? Or is Zen itself suitable for you, even if you're methodical, intellectual?

[21:08]

And sometimes I just feel like maybe Yeah, the problem is that here you are. But, you know, if someone is too dependent on intellect, which covers the intuition, then we kind of move you toward, you know, don't think too much, you know, just sit. And if someone is too intuitive and doesn't have a mental capacity, is not using their intellectual capacity, then we try to encourage that one to study more. So it's not a matter of if you are one, everyone is intuitive. And everyone has some intellectual ability, although some people more than others. propensity for one or the other, but we also have both.

[22:10]

Intuitive is like oneness, basically. Intellectual is like two-ness, because intellectual understanding is discriminating. It's just discriminating. As soon as you start thinking, that's discrimination. Because it means you're analyzing and dividing. So analysis and division is important. And intuition is important. They're both important. So when we apply those to San Do Kai, they're shaking hands. So how do you allow... It's really getting hot in here. Can't we turn it off or something? Yeah. So intellectual understanding is good, but it shouldn't cover intuition because intuition is the source and intellectual understanding is the activity.

[23:23]

So it's not that one is good or bad or right or wrong. It's learning how to balance the two. The two are one and the one is two. So intuition divides itself into duality. But if we're only dependent on duality, which is thinking, then we miss the intuition, which is oneness, so to speak. So you're in the right place. You had a question. I thought, but maybe not. No, okay. So human faculties are sharp or dull. Is there anything in the realm of human faculties or capacity that the way is dependent on? Or is it completely to anyone, regardless? I guess this is coming up for me because of my mother and her dying. She had Alzheimer's.

[24:26]

She was doped up on morphine. But right at the end of her life, There was a complete presence that didn't seem like it was just some passing state of mind. It seemed much deeper. I don't know if everybody heard what she said, but talking about her mother is dying and having Alzheimer's and her mental faculties were diminished to the point where she could only say, I love you. So that's pure intuition. It's pure intuition. The rest is all extra. But we like the extra part. The extra part is necessary. But it is extra. So in practice, we reduce our thinking to what's essential rather than what's extra.

[25:27]

No unnecessary talking. Don't gab. Stop screaming. speculating, just get down to where your intellectual, your thinking mind is focused on what's in front of you. But of course, it, you know, we go in two directions. When we nurture our thinking mind, our thinking can expand to the limits of the universe, which is limitless. That's good. But when we sit zazen, our intuition expands to the limitless, to the unlimited limitlessness of the universe. So it's micro and macro, maybe. Um...

[26:28]

So in Zanzen, we just let go of discriminative thinking and just let ourselves expand into the universe, which is intuitive. We just have funny, we have various ideas about what it means to be intuitive, but it's like directly from the source. is directly touching the source. So I'm kind of stuck on the word transmitted at the moment. You're making that sound that it's available to everyone right now. We're not separate from it. So the transmission implies, like you said, it's going from west to east. Yeah. So how do those two fit? It goes from east to west and west to east. But transmitting, like if you take a box of crackers, you know, from San Francisco to, you transmit, you're transporting.

[27:36]

So transporting and transmitting are, transmitting means something's already there. You know, when we give Dharma transmission, it doesn't mean we give something to somebody. It means we're giving you what you already have, recognizing what you already have. That's Dharma transmission, is recognition. of what you already have. It's not giving you something. There's nothing to give. So in that way, you know, the Buddha's mind is transmitted from west to east. It means that when you go to wake somebody up, you go into their room and you, wake up, wake up. That's transmitting. That's transmission. Wake up, wake up. And you open your eyes and you see what you see because you already, you know, we don't put the sight into your eyes. You just open them up. Help you open them up. That's transmission.

[28:38]

So, I don't remember exactly what was the question before this one, but you said something that then you go to the source. Yes. Totally to the source. So that expansion has contraction. Because it seems that it's something that is flowing and flowing, right? And it has no boundaries, whatever. So is there a contraction? I don't know. Contraction is expansion, and expansion is contraction in a non-dualistic way. So we're always thinking in dualistic terms. Here, we're not thinking in dualistic terms. the Sandokai is speaking to us in non-dualistic terms and if we but he's also saying duality is also part of non-duality so duality is all the discriminated objects all the dharmas are but he keeps talking about that and opening that up to us and so

[29:53]

Whatever is being talked about here is not fixed. There's nothing fixed. That's why it's just kind of slippery because it kind of goes back and forth between duality and non-duality and beyond duality and non-duality. So small is, you know, when you sit zazen, it's the most confined posture. don't move. You cross your legs and you take the posture and you don't move. That's the greatest confinement. But yet it's the greatest freedom. It opens up to the greatest freedom. So when you try to find the greatest freedom by running around, you know, that's what people do. This is a free country, you know, except that we're looking for it in the wrong place. So, he says, another way to explain reality is by differentiation.

[31:06]

So now, first he was talking about oneness, now he's talking about differentiation. And that's what the poem is about. Another way to explain reality is by differentiation. Differentiation is also equality. Differentiation is equality. And things have equal value because they are different. Because they're different, they are equal. If men and women are... This is Flicky Roshi, Dr. 1970. And... He has a certain way of talking about men and women, which is usual for that time. But there's a big truth in what he's saying. So don't get confused. If men and women are the same, then the distinction between men and women has no value.

[32:12]

I'm not going to elaborate on this. you get into trouble. But you can see the truth of it, of course. If men and women are the same, so how can you say this is a man and this is a woman? Right? So to be different is to have value because a man and a man and a woman is a woman. There's some value in opposites. And if everybody... But it's at the same time, we're all the same. We're all the same and we're all different. So to be different is to have value. In this sense, all things have equal absolute value. Each thing has absolute value unless it's equal to everything else.

[33:14]

So Shigiroshi talks about Virtue and value. And that's what he's really talking about here. Value is comparative. You say this is more valuable than this. You say a diamond is more valuable than a rock. That's comparative values. But at the same time, a diamond is just a diamond. A diamond is just a rock. It's a little different kind of rock than this kind of rock. It has absolute virtue, absolute value, which is called virtue, because it can't be compared. In itself, it is what it is without comparing to anything else. At the same time, it has value depending on how we construe the tarantula crawling across the rocks.

[34:22]

the diamond is just another rock. So we create values and then depend on them, which is important. But at the same time, each rock, whether it's compared to, is incomparable. Each one of us is incomparable. We compare ourselves to each other. And we evaluate each other in terms of comparison. These are the When we come to Tassajara, these are the work students, general labor, and then the douans, and then the kitchen meal, and then the staff, and the abbot, and so forth. So this is the hierarchical value system. not that one is better than another.

[35:23]

It's just that hierarchy is. Things don't exist without vertical hierarchy. It doesn't work. Even if you say, well, just fire everybody and everybody's equal pretty soon. There's hierarchy because it's just natural. One thing, everything is related to each other, to every other thing in a hierarchical way. At the same time, everything is all We're all totally equal, totally all the same. So the abbot is the same as general labor. No difference, except in a horizontal way. We're all just who we are. And we have absolute value. The absolute value is called virtue. So each one of us has a place in the hierarchy But if each one of us is doing our position totally, then we control the whole practice period.

[36:31]

Like the new student on general labor, if you're doing your practice totally in harmony with everyone else, you are controlling the whole practice period. You don't have to try to control anything, of course. If you try to control things, then that's not control. Controlling is everything. It's like peep, peep, peep. The bird controls the whole mountain just by being itself. So that's virtue beyond value. So men and women, when a woman is entirely a woman, of course, we're not entirely anything, right? Each one of us is half man and half woman. I mean, in different proportions, of course. Some of us are more one-sided than the other. Masculine women, feminine men, but speaking in this way, we contain both.

[37:44]

But when we truly know who we are ourselves, then How do you mean that if something is completely self it controls everything? Without trying to control. Because you're not apart from the whole that you're working with. If you have a car, then you have all these parts in the car.

[38:48]

And if one vital part is not working, the whole car will not work. Oh, my car broke down. So that one part is controlling the whole thing. When you replace the part, then everything starts working. So as soon as that part is there, it's all one piece. It's just all one piece. So when you are all one piece, all at one with the practice, you're controlling the practice because When you take that part out, the practice will still went along, but it will change. It will change. Everything we do at Tassajara affects everybody else. Every single thing we do affects everybody. Everybody knows when everybody, pretty much. Those who are alert know more than others. You know, as soon as you have a certain kind of relationship with somebody, that changes.

[39:50]

It changes the practice somehow. It modifies or affects, I'll say. It affects the practice in some way. So we're very careful who we fall in love with and how we approach our position and how we approach each other. It all has an effect on the practice. So it's like one ball of worms and each one of us is kind of wiggling and interacting in this ball of worms. It affects the shape of things. So when everybody is really doing their best to practice and relate to everyone in a wholesome way, practice really works well. Yeah, very smooth bottle worms.

[40:55]

So the practice depends on each person. That's why coming and going is not condoned. Because if somebody goes out to the dentist, it makes a difference. Where did they go? Well, they went out to the dentist. Well, then somebody else has to fill in or something, you know. And it makes an effect. So the way we think has an effect on the practice. Everybody's done. So it's one. As Totsugami used to say, it's one monk with many faces. He used to say, the reason why it's nice, you know, Zensum is dressed in black. And so everybody's the same. But then... But each face is distinguished individually and you really see who each person is because we all have the same background.

[42:00]

Our individuality stands out. So it's oneness and individuality at the same time, all one and all different. So we respect both of those aspects and that's what he's talking about here. Both of those aspects are the oneness and the individuality. The non-discrimination and the discrimination. So he says we are normally involved with standards of evaluation. That's discrimination. Exchange value, material value, spiritual value, and moral value. Because you have some standard, you may say, he is good, or he is not so good. The moral standard defines the value of people, but the moral standard is always changing.

[43:04]

You used to always say, morality is always changing. What you think is good today and not good yesterday, and it will not be good tomorrow. So if you compare that person with someone like Buddha, he's not so good. good or bad, is arrived at by some standard of evaluation, but because each thing is different, each thing has its own value. That value is absolute, and he calls that virtue. The mountain is not more valuable because it is high, and the river is not less valuable because it is low. On the other hand, because a mountain is high, it is a mountain, and it has absolute value as a mountain. Because water runs low in the valley, water is water, and it has absolute value. The quality of the mountain and the quality of the river are completely different. Because they are different, they have equal value. And the equal value means absolute value.

[44:07]

So a mouse is small, the elephant is big, but their absolute value is the same. I was thinking I ran across something I wrote down this morning in another book which was if you want if you only want to you know life is good and bad right if you only want the good part which most people want if I say do you want do you want the good and the bad or do you want just the good part I want the good part But if you want the good part, then you have to see everything as good. If you only want what is good, then you have to see everything as good. That's the only way you can only have the good part.

[45:13]

So... According to Buddhism, equality is differentiation and differentiation is equality. The usual understanding is that differentiation is the opposite of equality. But our understanding is that they are the same thing. One and many are the same. If you only see from the perspective that says one is different from many, your understanding is too materialistic and superficial. too superficial. So the next line is, while human faculties are sharp or dull, it is difficult to translate this passage. Yes. It refers to the dispute between the northern school and the southern school. The clever ones do not always have an advantage in studying or accepting Buddhism. And it is not always the dull person who has difficulty.

[46:24]

So there's always this idea that intellectuals have a harder time then. But a dull person is good because she is dull. And a sharp person is good because she is sharp. Even though you compare, you cannot say which is best. So Dogen says, it doesn't matter whether you're sharp or dull. Everybody can practice equally. And then Suzuki Roshi talked about the four horses. I don't know if you remember that. The horse that, when the horse sees the whip, starts running fast. And the horse that needs to have the whip on its, or sees the shadow, the first horse sees the shadow of the whip.

[47:31]

The second horse feels the whip and starts running. The third horse needs the whip really hard to start running. And the fourth horse, even though he receives the whip, didn't know what the hell's going on. But we're all fourth horses. Buddha loves the fourth horse best. So, he says, I am not so sharp. So, I understand this pretty well. My master, Gokajun Soon, always addressed me as, you cook a cucumber. So, that's where that comes from. I was his last disciple, but I became the first because all the good cucumbers ran away. That's a great image. We should make a cartoon. All these good cucumbers running away, looking back over the shoulder.

[48:33]

So anyway, maybe they were too smart. Anyway, I was not smart enough to run away, so I was caught. For studying Buddhism, my dullness was an advantage. When all the others went away and I was left alone with my master, I was very sad. If I had been a smart fellow, I would have run away too. But I had left home by my own choice. My parents said, you're too young. You should stay here. But I had to go. After leaving my parents, I felt I couldn't go back home again. So I could have, but I thought I couldn't. So I had nowhere to go. That's one reason why I didn't run away. Another reason was that I wasn't smart about it. A smart person does not always have the advantage, and a dull person is good because he's dull. So this is our understanding. I can assent to that. Actually, there is no dull person or smart person. Either way, it's not so easy. People think that wealthy people have all the advantages, but actually the wealthy people that I have known have always been miserable.

[49:49]

So either way is not so easy. There is some difficulty for both the smart person and the dull person. For instance, because he is not so smart, the dull person will study hard and read one book after over and over again. And a smart person, they forget quite easily. They may learn quickly, but what he learns may not stay so long or be so important to that person. For the dull person, it takes time to remember something, but if he reads it over and over, and remembers that it will not go away so soon. So smart or dull may not make so much difference. So now he talks about potentiality. Yes? In putting intellect and intuition together, are you suggesting that without intellect covering intuition, one lives more often or more deeply in oneness? Yeah.

[50:55]

Because intellect by itself is discriminating and covers oneness because you're dependent too much on the mind, on the thinking mind. There's big mind and thinking mind. So there's all the potentiality is in the one mind. And the expression is in the divided mind. If you have a post and it's upright, nothing's happening. There's no activity. There is activity, but it's all within the upright. It's dynamic activity which is called stillness. You say, well, nothing's happening there.

[51:59]

Nothing's moving. But, you know, it's like if you take a top, you know, and you spin the top on the floor, it looks like it's not moving. But if you touch it, it skins across the floor because of its dynamic activity within uprightness, stillness. It's not leaning to the right or the left, back and forth. It looks like nothing's happening, but actually it's loaded with dynamic activity. So it's the same with a post. When the post leans over, then the activity starts. So this is eccentricity. This is concentric. This is eccentric. Eccentric is important. You say, oh, that's so-and-so is eccentric, meaning off-center or leaning over from balance, out of balance.

[53:05]

But out of balance is how everything works. Without out of balance, nothing happens. So, and as Suzuki Roshi says, everything is falling out of balance all the time and finding its balance all the time. So if you look at what we're doing, we're constantly falling out of balance and regaining our balance. That's life. So Zazen is the top. All that dynamic activity is concentrated in this one act. So if you said Zazen in a relaxed way, you know, when you say relax, that's not Zazen. Zazen is total dynamic activity. You should be sitting... What do you think about in Zazen? We say don't think in Zazen, but that's not so. You can't not think in Zazen. Zazen is total thinking. It's not discriminative thinking. It's total thinking.

[54:07]

So what do you think about in Zazen? You think, not thinking, right? Which means total thought on one... But it's not even, not thinking on one spot, not concentration like a laser. It's wide open concentration so that everything is present in your mind. It's not trying to get rid of anything. Everything is totally present in your mind, but there's no discrimination or division. You're not dividing things. You're not seeing, sees, hearing, hears, knows, smells, tongue, taste, but there's no one who sees, hears, thinks and tastes and smells, touches. It's just those activities are happening and there's not a basis for them called myself.

[55:14]

Then there's nothing standing in the way. of total experience, totality, experience of totality. So to put our energy into, think the thought of zazen. What do you think in zazen? You think the thought of zazen. You're just totally present thinking the thought of zazen so you don't drift off to something else. That's hard. It's hard to keep that total dynamic activity steady, steadily working moment after moment. So that's oneness. Resuming your true nature. But thinking is also your true nature. So Sekito is not falling into one side or another. He's saying just to see everything as one is not enlightenment.

[56:17]

Not yet enlightenment. Further on, just to see everything as one is not yet enlightenment. You also have to recognize the other side, which is two. But it's not one or two. So, yes? About what? What about it? I mean, I can say something about it, but... What do you have to say about discernment? Yeah, to be able to tell one thing from another. I discern that the two people sitting in front of me are shut up. But I also know that they're one. We easily associate discernment with discrimination.

[57:36]

Yeah. Yeah. Discernment is the function of the fixed consciousness. Fixed consciousness discerns. This is seeing. This is hearing. This is taking, touching. The sixth consciousness is the discernment, is the discerner of consciousness. It gives us orientation. I guess maybe you could say that one of the purposes of discernment is orientation. I see that this is the table, so I can sit down here. The table is telling me, I see both of them. Well, I'm discerning that the chair is here so I can sit down on it. But there's the sixth level of consciousness that's separating things so that we, you know, I don't sit down on the table.

[58:36]

I sit down on the chair. So, oh, it's getting late. Well, I'll go over a little bit. But it's too long. Not too long, but it's long enough. Because you're just getting into it. I'll go on for a little bit. While human faculties are sharp or dull, ninkan ni ridan ari, that's Japanese. In the sandokai, the point is not so important.

[59:38]

This point is not so important. But it is interesting to understand what human potentiality is in Buddhism in order to explain further our understanding of practice and why it is necessary to practice zazen. So, nin is human, khan is root or potentiality. So nin khan is human potentiality. Ri here means someone who has an advantage. And don means someone who has a disadvantage. So that's another way of explaining human faculties are keener though. So the root of human potentiality is our advantage as well as our disadvantage. Everything has two sides. The capacity of the human mind has three aspects. Potentiality, interrelationship, and appropriateness.

[60:44]

We have the potentiality to be a Buddha. It is like a bow and an arrow because a bow and arrow have potentiality. If you use them, the arrow will fly. If you don't use them, the arrow won't fly. You are ready to be a Buddha, but if you don't practice zazen or Buddha doesn't help you, you can't be a Buddha even though you have potentiality. So this is the basis of Dogen's practice understanding. Only when you can practice does this potentiality manifest as reality. So it's like the catalyst for realization is practice, because you already have the potentiality within yourself. So when you use the catalyst to practice, then realization appears.

[61:51]

So that's what Dogen says, practice realization. If you don't make the move, nothing will happen. If you don't put the key in the lock, you can't open the door. So, and Buddha, I mean, Dogen has this classical called only a Buddha and a Buddha. In other words, what leads us to practice is our potentiality. Enlightenment is the beginning of practice because it brings us to practice. We think, well, I'm suffering or I'm curious or You know, we have various reasons for coming to practice, but actually it's Buddha wants to meet itself.

[62:56]

And practice is what opens up that meeting. It's very interesting. You know, this wonderful koan, Seijo and her soul, um... Feiju and her soul embracing. It's like when you actually come into practice, you embrace yourself. You embrace your true self. That's what practice is. You meet yourself in practice. And we're always looking for that meeting. Where's that meeting? But we don't know that that's what we're doing. That's why this is all intuition. What brings us to practice is actually intuition, even though we think it's something else. Because Buddha meets Buddha. Buddha wants to meet Buddha. The Buddhas, we can't blame the practice for anything.

[64:04]

People often blame the practice when they don't. They're not satisfied. But when we open up to ourselves, then that's called practice. So potentiality has two meanings. One is possibility. And from the viewpoint of our nature, we have the possibility to be Buddha. On the other hand, if you observe me in terms of time, even though I have the potentiality, if someone doesn't help me, I can't be a Buddha. From the viewpoint of time, potentiality means something like future possibility. And this is the other meaning. So when we understand potentiality or possibility in terms of nature, Buddha nature, we should be very kind and generous to everyone because everyone naturally has the possibility to be a Buddha.

[65:08]

But when we think in terms of when, we should be very strict. When is always this problem. When will I get enlightened? Even though I have this When will this happen to me? So then you should be very strict. If you miss this time, if you do not make a good effort this week or this year, if you always say tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow, you will miss a chance to attain enlightenment even though you have the possibility. So always looking ahead to the day, when, instead of looking at today. This is it. It's only this. This is the only time in the world that you can get enlightened is right now. What would you do? That's a con. Each moment is the right moment. But, oh, well, you know, this is a drag, you know. We don't appreciate the moment that we have.

[66:12]

And so we think the next moment will be the moment that will change the world. If you want only the good part, then you have to see everything as being the good part. Because otherwise it won't happen. So it is the same with your practice. When you don't think about time, you can be very generous with everyone. You can treat people very well. But if you think about time, about today, tomorrow, next day, you can't be so generous because you will lose time. That's a very interesting statement. We'll lose time. So we say, this is very hard to, this part was really hard to edit. So this is where I edited it.

[67:13]

So you do this and I'll do that. And you help this person, I'll help that person. And in this way, we should be very strict with ourselves. In other words, stop thinking about yourself. Just help everybody and forget about time. And just be time. Joshua says to the monk, the monk says, I'm always so busy. I'm always, you know, I never have enough time to do anything. And Joshua says, problem is you're being turned by time. control time. I am turning time and you're just being turned by time. So in this way we should be very strict with ourselves. That's why we analyze key or potentiality as both possibility and future possibility. When you understand potentiality in this way, you can work and practice very well. Sometimes in a very generous way, sometimes in a very strict way,

[68:15]

We have to have two sides to affect us, or to our understanding of potentiality. And this is the first meaning of potentiality. So kingly, or potentiality, also means interrelationship. Here, the interrelationship between a Buddha and someone with a good nature, and between a Buddha and someone with a bad nature, I'm sorry to say bad nature, He doesn't really mean, he just doesn't have the words to express it in another way. Bad nature. But technically, I use these words. We should encourage people who have a good nature, giving them some joy of practice. And when we practice with someone who apparently is not so good, we should suffer with that person. So that is our understanding. So key sometimes means the inner relationship between someone who helps and someone who has helped. So this is called GE. Ji-hi here means to encourage someone.

[69:17]

He means to give happiness. Ji-hi is usually translated as love, and love has two sides. One is to give joy, and the other is to lessen suffering. To lessen someone's suffering will suffer with them and share their suffering, and that is love. So that's a whole other big subject. What is love? And in the Dharma, we have four aspects of what is love. None of them have to do with our desire. None of them have to do with ourselves. It all has to do with others. Except that what has to do with others, of course, has to do with ourselves. Loving kindness, which means indiscriminate care for people beyond like and dislike, or it doesn't matter who it is.

[70:20]

That's just universal goodwill toward everyone. And karuna, which is to suffer with others, actually, to suffer the others, suffering of others, which is what he's talking about. And then there's sympathetic joy, which is to be happy with the happiness of others, even though others may be happier than we are in some way, to rejoice with that, not to worry about our advantage. And then there's equanimity, which is to not get caught by good or bad, love or hate, and simply be open to everything, to be able to weigh everything equally.

[71:26]

Those are four kinds of love, but they're not selfish love. What we usually think of as love is self-centered, is very self-centered, and that's why we get into trouble. But there is a place for self-centered love. I love you, you know, because it helps me. I mean, at least I think it does. It's so tricky that it's hard to talk about. And it's fun to talk about. But it's difficult. I need you and so forth. So we have these needs and we want to connect and we, you know, there's just all kinds of different ways that this happens.

[72:41]

There's a place for selfish love, but it's low down on the scale. It's like the bottom of the scale because it's what's to our advantage rather than how can we relate to create a harmonious world. I see that love means to create a harmonious world and I have to fit into it too. It's like the 10 monks, you know. Somebody said, well, let's count us to see how many there are. And they say, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. One, two, three, four. And then somebody said, well, you have to count yourself as well. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. Oh, yeah, we'll count it up. So, yes, you have to count yourself. But it doesn't have to be selfish. It just has to be included. You include everything. So, but, you know, everybody's got problems.

[73:49]

When you have problems, then you can analyze and see, well, let's see now, what did I do wrong? Why is this happening? I thought it was going to be great, and it's just nothing but suffering. Why? That's a great koan. It's really, you know, and a toss of hearts, a big koan. big co-op for everybody. But I just want, I mean. And it just drives us crazy, you know. And we have all these wonderful people crossing together who are attracted to each other in the fish bowl. These are the fish. The people over here are the fish. And you only have certain choices. And... You have a romance and then pretty soon time comes when everybody has to go in different ways.

[74:55]

Let's see, what did we do? We had this dream thing that we did and now the dream is over. What do we do now? So we have to be very careful what we dream and how we express it. A dream, because it is a dream. Gee, you know, she's so beautiful. I didn't think she was beautiful, but every time I look at her now, I say she's beautiful. And then pretty soon, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. All I could think about was her. But it's a dream. We're dreaming. So we have to be very careful how we manage our dream. Is this just a dream? So many of us actually created partnerships in this fishbowl. I myself did. But fortunately, it's still working.

[76:02]

But you have to be very careful, very careful. You don't. You don't. Well, you know, you reap what you sow. It is a dream. We dream and then we create a reality out of the dream. In other words, whatever we think of is a kind of dream. But here we say, I want to get a cup of coffee. I would really like to have a cup of coffee. That's a dream. And then, oh yeah, the coffee's over there, the coffee machine. And then that's a direction. And then the motivation is, that would really taste good. And then the motivation keeps walking over there.

[77:09]

And then we, oh yeah, you know, drink it. It becomes a reality. But we do dream everything we dream about. So what dream am I going to? What direction is my dream going to take? You may say, I'm dreaming of going to the Zendo. That's a good dream. Then you get up and I know that probably my knees will hurt, but I'm going to do it anyway. How do you wake up from this? By saying, this is a dream. And shall I take this up or not? So you have a choice. We should always realize that we have a choice, even though we may not think so.

[78:11]

Because the desire for something, desire is not by itself, it's just neutral. There's nothing wrong with desire. Desire is good. It's motivational. So I have a desire for something. Do I really want that, or is this just an idea? And so I have a desire for this. This person is beautiful, or whatever, but what is it about this person that is attracting me? Well, I need something. So that's the first clue. What is my need? And that's where all the trouble starts. And I can't tell you how to control it. Everybody has to do it in some way through reasoning. So this word reasoning is really important.

[79:15]

If I do this, that will happen. And then maybe that will happen, and then uh-oh. Or this will happen, and then oh, great. But mostly it's uh-oh. How long have you been with your wife? You said you met your wife here? I did. How long ago was that? That was 1970. 1970. And we were down at the Narrows. And I was playing the flute without any clothes on. And she said, I fell in love with you. Would you recommend this to others? You're on your own. So, when I was director back in the 70s, oh, yeah, then I was Abbott for nine years and doing all these practice periods, I was dealing with this stuff all the time.

[80:35]

All the time. People crying on my shoulder and blah, blah, blah. And it affects the practice period. So, but it will be bound to happen. We can talk about controlling it, but even though you do that, given the situation that we are in, things happen and you can't always control them. So we have to be patient and compassionate with ourselves and with each other, knowing that it's difficult for everybody. It's just really difficult for everybody. I mean, not everybody, but most everybody, how you have some self-control. And how you do that, everybody has desire. But, you know, typically in Asian countries, in India, you see, well, that's

[81:48]

That's my sister or that's my brother. You treat someone who you love as your sister or as your brother or as your relative and see them thoroughly rather than just through the eyes of your desire. Because the eyes of your desire immediately go to what I want. And so substituting what I want for... how can I be really kind to this person? What's the best thing for this person rather than what's the best thing for me? That's the key, really. That's the key. I'm attracted to all kinds of women all the time, but I turn that to how can I actually appreciate this person and help them rather than satisfy my own desires which totally distorts the relationship.

[82:54]

Totally distorts the relationship. So how do you keep the relationship pure and undistorted so that you're not taking advantage of people? Really, that's really what it's about. How do we really see each other in a way that we can help each other? and support each other and see who this person really is instead of who is this person that I would like to exploit. For me this kind of circles back to Suzuki Roshi's definition of virtue. That's right. How do we see the virtue in each one rather than the value? The value would be what's in it for me. virtue is how do I really see this person independently of my own needs.

[83:59]

Did I? Well, when you say believe in, that's different than believe. I don't believe in falling in love. I don't believe in falling in love. I think falling in love is self-centered because you create the person. You create the person that you're falling in love with. And so that's the delusional part. I can love that person for who they are. But falling in love just can't, you know, You create a person to fit your ideal of what you want. But it looks like that's who they are. And that's the trap. We fall into this trap of our own creation.

[85:08]

So that's why you can't blame the person that we fall in love with when we fall out. We just have to look at, oh my God, I was under this delusion. I was deluding myself. And that person was just the catalyst for me to do that. On the other hand, you know, we need some satisfaction. When we approach someone, we're looking for some kind of satisfaction. The other person is looking, and so there's a symbiotic relationship between one partner and another, and another. So sometimes it works really well. Sometimes it doesn't. So there's no rule, you know. You just have to have some discernment as you, that's discernment.

[86:09]

You can answer your question about discernment. You just have to have some discernment. Is this real or is this real? Am I just making this person up in my conception of my own need? John? My husband is Chinese, and back when we were dating for a couple of years, he said, in my culture, you know, we're always focused on what's the need of the other person. He said, in your culture, you're both focused on what's good for me. He said, we're both focused on what's good for each other. That sums it up. It's kind of a comment.

[87:11]

Maybe it's obvious, but it seems worth pointing out. Is everything you're saying about not seeing someone exclusively through your desire, but instead saying, like, you know, how can I be of service or how can I love this person or, you know, what have you. That seems, it seems at least as important when it's someone, say, when you have an aversion or someone that you. Yes, that's right. That's right. That's right. How can I actually, well, you know, we may not be able, we may think we can help the person we don't like because we don't, you know, they're doing something we don't like. That's right. We can also turn somebody in the same way we turn somebody into a monster. In the same way we turn them into somebody bad. That's very true. So how can you actually, I don't know about help, but how can you have an attitude where you can actually accept the person and work with that person?

[88:15]

Offer something. Yeah, that doesn't work. But how can I really show kindness to this person? And in what way can I do that so that I'm not alienating? Yeah, I mean, that's a big one. It's just two sides of the same equation. Yeah, it's good. So, do you believe in soul myths? And what? Soulmates. Soulmate. Yeah. I mean, yeah. You know, we can also, that can also be a delusion. Soulmate can be just right, or it can also be a delusion. We never know. This is why in the old days, you know, people were selected by their families. You know, they didn't see each other, you know. And this is what you've got, and this is what you have to work with.

[89:20]

And so marriage in those days was a great koan for the people that were getting married. This is what you've got, and this is what you have to work with. Work it out. It's not always good, you know. It didn't always turn out right. But, you know, there's something about that. It takes it out of your sense of desire, what you want and so forth, and it can be very disappointing. But at the same time, every system has its good side and its bad side. But in some sense, that's the good side. Well, I didn't like him in the beginning, but now we're in love, you know, because they started working on their relationship, which they never had any at all before. And they get to know each other, you know. things work out well. Or they don't. You know, but still, they're soul mates. Sure. If we create the delusion of being in love to serve our own, what's the purpose of creating a monster?

[90:28]

What is that served? What is the purpose? There's no purpose in doing that. I don't know what you mean. Well, I mean, if we use the same or we create a monster in the same way we create love, And we're saying love, we use that idea of love to serve our need. And what does it serve? What does it serve to create somebody who's a monster? Yeah, aversion. Because grasping an aversion of the two sides that we're dealing with all the time. I like this, I don't like this, I want that, I don't want that. So grasping the... delusion of falling in love is grasping. You want something to hold on to that makes you feel good. And that's grasping. You don't want to lose it. And the other side is aversion. I don't want any part of that. I don't want this intrusion in my life. That's aversion. We're dealing with that all the time.

[91:30]

So it's the same energy just turned in two different directions. That's right. Exactly. So we encounter this moment by moment in Zazen. Aversion and grasping. These are the two. Oh, what a great feeling. This must be it. And then we hold on to it. And as soon as we hold on to it, it starts to change. But it's changing. It's not the same. And with aversion, it's like, oh, here comes the pain. Uh-oh. I'm going to fight it, you know, or whatever. I don't like it. And then it gets worse and worse and worse because you don't like it. So how do you open yourself up to everything equally? Aversion, I mean, pain, pleasure, all the same. That's why if you want to, everything to be good, you have to see everything is good.

[92:37]

which is beyond good and bad, which is beyond pleasure and pain. Sort of a follow-up to that, what about aversion as protective? Yeah, it's protective. It's intrusion. Yeah. What needs to be protected, we don't always know what needs to be protected. So we protect a lot of things that don't mean to be protected. So to really be open to everything means you let it come and you let it go. As soon as you catch a cold, don't catch anything. Something will come that you don't like, you let it come and you open to it and then it leaves. As soon as you catch it, it's there. We say, don't be, don't get caught.

[93:39]

Don't get caught by things. Don't get caught by aversion. Don't get caught by the things you don't like. Don't get caught by the things that you do like. You say, well, then what do I have? Joy. That's true joy. But we think the things that we want create joy. That's the problem. I think the things that we want are going to create joy for us. But actually, not getting caught by anything creates the most wonderful joy because then we have freedom. We say, I want freedom. I want freedom. But we don't. We want freedom to be caught. We do. We want to have the freedom to get caught by things. I want this. Oh, I want that. The freedom to want. And the more we want, the more we get caught. I mean, we invent all these... energy-saving tools, and we just get caught by them because it makes us work harder.

[94:43]

All these conveniences just make us work harder. So we're busy day and night. Making money can get all these things that make life easier, which make it harder. It seems like we're having a discussion about Yeah, that's right. In the Satipatthana sutra, it just says simply to notice when a fingerprints comes, notice when it comes, how did it arise, how did it fall away, and what's going to prevent it from arising again. That's very good. That's the practice, yeah. It's very simple. Practice that. We don't always know what's going to cause a problem, but if we are aware how things arise, how we take them up and how we let them go, that's called Buddhist practice, basic Buddhist practice.

[95:58]

So, thank you. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click giving.

[96:21]

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