This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Every morning. So, in this fourth talk, all the objects of the senses... interact and yet do not. Interacting brings involvement, otherwise each keeps its place. This is fourth doc and just to make sure that we all have the same understanding about all objects of the senses. interacting and not interacting.

[01:01]

You just want to prepare your mind. According to Buddhadharma, there's one piece. Everything is one piece. Except by discrimination, we cut things into smaller pieces called subjects and objects. So, originally, subjects and objects are not divided but in order to operate in our world we divide them. So we keep dividing things more and more in order to get comfortable. So subject is the mind and the object is the object of mind. And so the subject always needs an object in order for cognition to arise, in order for consciousness to arise.

[02:07]

So consciousness arises with the subject and the object. If there's a subject but no object, consciousness doesn't arise. And if there's an object with no subject, consciousness doesn't arise. We think that consciousness is just going on all the time. But consciousness arises when the subject meets the object and the subject meeting the object is called discrimination. So our discriminating mind separates one thing into two. So in order for the subject to arise there has to be an object and in order for the object to be cognized there has to be a subject. So this is the way it is. And so Sekito is talking about the interaction between the subject and the object and the oneness of the subject and the object.

[03:16]

So all the objects of the senses. The senses are how we discriminate objects. Through the senses we discriminate objects. I see or the eye sees. The eye sees, therefore, what it sees is the object. And then the mind, of course, the eye simply is an organ of seeing. The mind is the recognition of seeing, as we all know. The objects of the senses, I think it probably might be better to say all the objects and the senses interact and yet do not. If you think about it, the objects, the senses and their objects arise together and yet at the same time keep their own place.

[04:23]

So interacting in this way brings involvement. Otherwise, each dharma keeps its own place. Each dharma has its own dharma position. It's not just the dharma of Tassahara practice positions. Dharma's position is the position of each thing, each individual dharma and its place on each moment in time and space. So in the last talk, I explained how people stick to G. Do you remember G and Ri? Can you tell the difference? Do you remember the difference? Which is Ri and which is G? Ri is like the absolute, and G is like the relative. So we live our lives in G, but the background of G is Ri.

[05:30]

The essence of Ji is Ri. So Ri and Ji is one thing, except that we divide them, that we discriminate them in order to talk about them. And Suzuki Roshi talks about this a little bit. He says, if you only understand Zen logically without understanding, getting behind the words, getting the meaning through the words rather than focusing on the words, then you're not a good sister. If you take anything literally in Zen, almost, you're off. In the last talk, I explained about how people stick to G, stick to attachment of things. And that is usual. We all do that. The characteristic of Buddha's teaching is to go beyond things. Now things, you can also say dharmas, because dharma stands, dharma with a big D is the absolute.

[06:35]

Dharma with a small d is concerned with things. And in a large sense, all things are small d dharmas. Buddha's teaching in the absolute is capital D, dharma. So the dharma is the truth about the dharmas. The big thing is the truth about the little things, about the discriminated things. So the characteristic of Buddha's teaching is to go beyond things or dharmas, beyond various beings, ideas, and material things. And when we say truth, we usually mean something we can figure out. The truth that we can figure out or think about is ji. In other words, it's on the side of phenomena. When we go beyond subjective things, and objective words, we come to the understanding of the oneness of everything. The oneness of subjectivity and objectivity.

[07:37]

In other words, self and other. The oneness of inside and outside. For instance, when you said Zazen, you were not thinking about anything or watching anything. Your focus is four or five feet ahead of you. but you do not watch anything. Even though many ideas come, we do not think about them. They come in and go out and that's all. People think often that concentration means to focus on one thing. In Zazen, I think concentration may be some people to focus on one thing, to narrow down your focus like a laser. But concentration in zazen is not exactly like that. That's not bad concentration, but there's another kind of concentration which is just the opposite, which is to have a wide focus, a focus that is an unfocused focus, or non-focused focus, so that the eyes are open,

[08:54]

And there's peripheral vision and peripheral vision in front, but there's nothing special to look at. And when you're looking at the wall, there's nothing special to look at. There's little dots, you know, and you can create landscapes and you can create, you know, other worlds and so forth. But that's not the right kind of concentration. There's the spider one. The spider one. Yeah, the spider coming at the wall. That's another story. So just to keep the eyes open without focusing. Keep the ears open without focusing. Keep your nose open without focusing. In other words, everything is open, but there's no eye in the center. There's no self in the center.

[09:57]

And then you're not self-centered. You're Buddha-centric. So it's Buddha that's sitting zazen. If you say, we do this all the time, my zazen, my zazen. But it's not your zazen. It's Buddha's zazen. So at that time... we're not engaged in a discriminating mind, is basically what he's saying. He says you're not thinking about anything or watching anything. So your focus is four or five feet ahead of you, maybe, but you do not watch anything. Even though many ideas come, we don't think about them, they come in and they go out, and that's all. We do not entertain various ideas or pay attention to them. We do not invite them to stay. We invite them to come in, but we don't invite them to stay. And this is, you know, well known.

[11:00]

We let them come in, but we don't serve them tea. So that's all. That's the zazen. And when we practice in that way, even though we do not try, our mind includes everything. So our mind is not limited by partiality. Partiality means partial. Basically means division. Partiality means I like this, I like that, I don't like this, I don't like that. We're not bothered by that. Hopefully. And so because we're sitting with undivided mind, it's total mind. So there are two minds. One mind is our thinking mind. And when we say my mind, that's what we're usually referring to. We're referring to... the mind that thinks. But the mind that Suki Roshi is talking about is the all-inclusive mind, which is beyond thinking mind, but includes thinking mind.

[12:04]

It's the all-encompassing mind. That's why we use a capital M when we say mind, because it's undivided mind. And so undivided mind is everywhere. There's no limit to undivided mind. Divided mind has its limitations. So we understand things, we try to understand things in a certain way and so discriminating mind is the way to do that. But undivided mind is just being pure existence. So we're not concerned about nor do we expect something that may exist beyond our reach. So whatever we talk about at any moment is within our mind. Everything is within. Now he's talking about big mind here. Whatever we talk about at any moment is within our mind.

[13:09]

Everything is within our mind. But usually we think that there are many things. There's this and this and this. And in the cosmos there are many stars. But right now we can only reach the moon. In a few years we may reach some other planets, if we did reach Mars. And eventually we may reach some other solar system. In Buddhism, mind and being are one. They're not different. So you can also say body and mind are one, but you can refer to either small mind or big mind. So as there is no limit to cosmic being, there is no limit to our mind. Our mind reaches everywhere. It also includes the stars. So our mind is not just our mind. It is something greater than the small mind that we think is our mind. That is our understanding. And that's sasa. People, well, I don't know what I'm doing in sasa, and I get bored, you know, because my mind is not dividing.

[14:12]

My mind is not discriminating, so I get bored. The only way I can keep my mind occupied is by discriminating. Picking and choosing. liking and disliking, you know, the whole retina, I mean, the whole retinue of stuff that we get attached to to keep us from getting bored. A bored, being bored, I think means a gap, disconnection. When there's disconnection, you know, you say, I'm washing the dishes, but I'm bored because it's a gap between you and the dish washing because you don't like it or you may wish it was over soon as you wish it was over you get bored because you lost the connection so the only way to amuse yourself is to make connection and then when there's connection there's no connection true connection is no connection because there's only one thing

[15:19]

So our mind and things are one. So if you think all this is mind, that is so. If you think over there is some other being, that is also so. But more to the point, when Buddhists say this or that or I or this or that or I, I includes everything. So you should listen to the tone of it rather than just the words. You have to get it somewhere. And at the end of one of Suzuki Roshi's lectures, there's some lectures, he says, even before I say anything, you already understand. Which is true. We already understand. But because our minds start thinking, we don't understand. Because our thinking might take, divides our understanding. So, he says sound is different from noise.

[16:45]

Sound is something that comes from your practice. He'll explain it a little bit. Noise is something more objective, something that can bother you. If you strike a drum, the sound you make is the sound of your own subjective practice. And it is also the sound that encourages all of us. Sound is both subjective and objective. So, I'll read that again because sound is different from noise. Noise is something that we don't like. And sound is something that we do like. And sound is something that comes from your practice so here he's steering us to the bells the doan and the kokyo and the fukudo and how we actually create something wonderful or something either we create noise or sound given our approach and our inner understanding

[18:00]

So, I'll give you a little dolan practice, a little dolan understanding. Maybe I did talk about this, I don't know if I talked about this or not, but the bell is an instrument. It's not, it's this huge bell. $15,000 bell or something. And it sits there in the zindo. And why do we need such a big bell? Why do we need something like that? I can take a garbage can lid. Bang, bang. And I can actually get a good sound out of it. It's possible to get a good sound out of it. You know, in the old days, they used to have a washboard band in New Orleans.

[19:06]

You know, there was a washboard and a bass made out of a piece of wood, you know. And because musicians were musicians, it sounded great. You don't need, you know, wonderful instruments in order to make good music if you're a real musician. Anything will do. But here we have this, you know, bell that's made. You know how they make the bell? A big piece of bronze. And it's laid out on the table or floor or something. And they have a couple of people pounding with hammers. And boom, boom. They raise the sides up. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Takes a long time and a lot of work. And those little dents... or the hammer marks. So this is something, you know, we should approach this with awe.

[20:07]

It's not just something to keep time with, although that's one of its functions. But you have to find when you don't hit the bell, you coax the sound out of the bell, you sound the bell. I like to say, you sound the bell when you sound the bell. So then you have this beater that falls on the bell to create, to coax the voice of the bell. The bell has a voice. That's several voices, actually, just like the Blue Jays. But so the bell expresses your understanding. That's what it is. The bell is a vehicle to express your understanding through its voice. Like we have a megaphone. A megaphone, just any instrument, expresses your voice, your inner voice.

[21:12]

So that's the attitude with which we should approach something like this. Great respect, you know. How can I produce the most wonderful sound, this most inspiring sound? Because the bell is there to inspire our practice. But it's the person that's sounding the bell that makes that happen. So you can produce a sound that brings forth the enlightenment in everyone else's mind or body. And then when we bow, we go, ah. Oh, I want to bow when I hear that sound. So that's the kind of attitude that we have to bring to this instrument, plus all the rest. That's just an example. So this is actually what he says.

[22:20]

If you strike a drum, the sound you make is the sound of your own subjective practice. That's how you can tell where a person is when you listen. The teacher says, ah-ha, that's where that person is today. And it is also the sound that encourages all of us. So sound is both subjective and objective. In Japan, we say hibiki. Hibiki means something that goes back and forth, like an echo. If I say something, I will get feedback, back and forth. That is sound. Buddhists understand a sound as something created in our mind. I may think, the bird is singing over there. But when I hear the bird, the bird is already me. Actually, I am not listening to the bird. The bird is here in my mind already, and I am singing with the bird. So when you objectify the sound,

[23:24]

That's different than just letting the sound be one with the sound. There's no discrimination. The bird is here in my mind already, and I am singing with the bird. Beep, beep, beep. If you think while you are studying, the blue jay is singing above my roof, but its voice is not so good. That thought is noise. So you create the noise. When you are not disturbed by blue jays, blue jays will come right into your heart and you will be a blue jay and the blue jay will be reading something. And then the blue jay will not disturb your reading. When you think the blue jay is over my roof, the blue jay over my roof should not be there. That thought is a more primitive understanding of being because of our lack of practice we understand things in that way. he's talking about being one with things when you are one with things there's no opposite the only problems that we have is the problem of opposition when we when something bad enters us we think it's bad we say this is bad and so we create a problem

[24:55]

by thinking, this is bad. Or when something good comes up, we think, oh, this is good. And so we create a problem by thinking, this is good. This is the problem that we have in zazen, of course. When pain has no opposite called pleasure, then it's just no problem. The problem comes when we create the opposite. When we create an opposition, then we have a problem. I'm thinking about when we get angry at people and somebody does something we don't like and so we come down on that person and so you put a person on the defensive. That creates a problem because then the person is backed against the wall and has to react to you. because there's no way out, unless the person is very clever and can neutralize the problem.

[26:04]

Most of the koans are about the teacher and the student, and either the teacher or the student is neutralizing the problem. It's not a matter, they say, oh, and so-and-so won, you know, you think, but there's no winning or losing. When there's no winning or losing, you don't have a problem anymore. But we want to win. We always want to win. And we want to tear the opponent apart. Sports used to be like that. I think in Japan sometimes when one team is ahead in baseball, when they know that they're ahead, they don't press it. They honor the other team. We used to call that sportsmanlike, but now it's like the sportsmanlike is no longer, I mean, it's rare.

[27:17]

It's becoming more rare. Everybody just wants to beat each other up and win. Anyway, our aggressive nature is pretty bad. So the more you practice Zazen, the more you'll be able to accept something as your own, whatever it is. That is their teaching of Jiji Muge from the Kagan or Hawaiian school. Jiji means... Being has no barrier, no disturbance. Because things are interrelated, it is difficult to say, this is the bird and this is me. It is difficult to separate the blue jay from me, and that is Gigi Mugei. And it's also called imperturbable zazen. Nothing can upset you. This is the goal of zazen, if there is one.

[28:21]

It's like nothing can upset you. because he neutralized all opposites. When he says... That is sound. Buddhists understand that sound is something created in our mind. a koan. I'm trying to remember which ancestor it is, the two ancestors, Indian ancestors. Well, it's easier if we go to the sixth ancestor because it's the same koan.

[29:25]

when the sixth ancestor comes out of the woods, after being in the woods for 20 years, and enters the monastery, and the two monks are arguing over the flag. Is it the flag that moves, or is it the wind that moves? And Hoi Nung comes up and he says, it's neither, it's your mind that moves. And then later, we come up with There's neither the wind nor the flag nor the mind. Everything is in complete stillness. That's the other koan. Does the sound come to the ear or does the ear come to the sound? And the student says, neither. Everything is in complete stillness. So... This is wonderful.

[30:27]

Go on. Okay, now here we get down to brass tacks. The text says all the objects of the senses interact and yet do not. Although things are interrelated, everyone, every being can be the boss. So in other words, although everything is interrelated, everything is what it is. You can't negate any dharma. So each one of us can be a boss because we are so closely related. If I say Mel, that's me. If I say Mel, Mel is already not just Mel. He is one of Zen Center's students. So to see Mel is to see Zen Center. If you see Mel, you understand what Zen Center is. But if you think, oh, he's just Mel, then your understanding is not good enough. you don't know who Mel is. If you have a good understanding of things themselves, you will understand the whole world through things.

[31:34]

So regardless of, this could be anybody, anyone, any student, but every student represents the whole body. Every one of us represents the whole of Tassara. So how will you represent it? What's your determination to practice? And when you have that determination, then people become inspired to practice when they watch you. So each one of us has that responsibility, actually. You know, I talk about engines and boxcars. It's a train. you know, has an engine and a long line of boxcars. But the engine is pulling things along. But each one of us should be an engine.

[32:36]

We have to start out as boxcars, but we segue or transform at some point into engines. And instead of just following the practice, we drive the practice. So this is something that we should... Think about, when am I going to stop just being pulled along and actually move things? Not just move them on my own, of course, but just to throw myself into the practice Yes. So an engine is a boxcar, and a boxcar is an engine. So it's not just like, if you're only an engine, then that's one extreme.

[33:38]

If you're only a boxcar, that's the other extreme. So you have to, it's like turning and being turned. Dogen talks about turning. The practice is allowing yourself to be turned, and in turn, allow it. turning the practice and being turned by the practice. So if you're only on one side or the other, it's out of balance. So some people are very aggressive and they have to learn how to follow. And some people only follow and they have to learn how to be more assertive. So that balance is necessary. That's a very good point. Well, that's right, yes. There has to be something there, yes. But each one has both sides. So you only need one.

[34:41]

And this is our practice, actually, to be assertive and at the same time to turn the practice and at the same time allow yourself to be turned. And when each one of us practices that way, the practice goes very well. It's called balance. Yes. That's right. So that's your independent practice and your interdependent practice. That's just what he's talking about. So there's something similar that you read the other day. You said when that bird comes, the bird is the whole mountain.

[35:46]

Oh, yes. The bird covers the whole mountain. Yeah. And then when you hear the bird, then you become the bird. Yes. You become the bird because you're already the bird. The sound is already the sound. It just happens that at that moment all the conditions come together to make it audible. So each one of us is the boss of the whole world. And when you have this understanding, you will realize that things are interrelated, yet they are also independent. So each one of us is completely and absolutely independent.

[36:47]

There is nothing to compare. You are just you. So later on, he talks about independency. He coins this word independency, which means... this. It's not quite, it's not just independent, and it's not just dependent. It's somewhere in between dependent and independent. This is like fuzzy logic. Zen logic is kind of fuzzy, and especially Suzuki Roshi's Zen logic is pretty fuzzy. So this is also where he talks about value and virtue. But I'll talk about that later. You have to understand things in two ways. One way is to understand things as interrelated. The other way is to understand ourselves as quite independent from each thing, anything, everything. When we include ourselves, when we include everything as ourselves, we are completely independent because there's nothing with which to compare ourselves.

[37:55]

So that's true independence. because there's nothing outside of us. That's independence. We think independence means to be separate, but actually means to be all-inclusive because there's no opposite. The word alone, the root of alone means at one with. but it has two meanings that are opposite. When we say alone, it means isolated. But its true meaning, I mean, basic meaning is at one with. So within that one word is the whole sandokai. It means dependent and independent at the same time.

[39:01]

Now the text says, all the objects of the senses, the senses are eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and body, are gates. And sense objects enter the gates. In other words, the gate is the eye. And the eye sees something, which is the object, as we were talking about. So the senses pick up objects according to their function. And then mind consciousness discriminates between the fields of sense. I see, this is seen, this is heard, and so forth. And then it thinks about. Given that information, it starts thinking. So for eyes, there's something you see. For ears, there's something you hear. For the nose, something to smell, and for the tongue, something to taste. For the body, something to touch. There are five kinds of senses, objects, for the five sense organs.

[40:08]

This is just Buddhist common sense. This is basic Buddhism. Referring to them here in the poem is just the way of saying everything. It is the same as saying flowers and trees, birds and stars, streams and mountains, but instead we say each sense and its objects. So the various beings that we see and hear are interrelated. But at the same time, each being is absolutely independent and has its own value. He says we call this value re, in other words, absolute value, which he talks later on about virtue and value. Value as comparative value. This is worth something because that's worth something. So compared to this, that's worth something else, you know. BMW is worth something, has its worth compared to the Ford and so forth. So my clothes, compared to your clothes, you know, are not so good, you know, something like that.

[41:13]

So my daddy is better than your daddy, you know. So virtue is the re. In other words, every being has its own virtue which is incomparable. You are totally incomparable. Even though you may be compared to me, you may be a woman, I may be a man, but it doesn't make any difference because our intrinsic worth is incomparable. It can't be compared to anything else. So each one of us can have our own, we should have our own sense of worth. just by the fact of our virtue. It doesn't depend on our value. Because value is just something that we establish. Yeah. Yeah, you can say, yeah, so there's equal value and unequal value. So, on a horizontal plane, everything has equal value.

[42:21]

In other words, if you want to talk about value... Here in Tassajara, we have the hierarchy, the abbot, the director, the danto, the general labor. So everyone is in a different position hierarchically according to, not their worth, but it's an evaluation system. So we don't pick somebody from general labor to be the abbot right away. Maybe after the first or second practice period. That's not a bad idea. Actually, the sixth patriarch was nobody. Mr. Nobody became the sixth patriarch. I have to tell you this story because I like it. This is in China.

[43:25]

And a monastery in China, and I don't know what year this was, but a long time ago. And they were trying to decide who should be the abbot. And so they said, well, you know, we'll make a drawing, and we'll put the names, everybody's name in the fishbowl. And so, you know, they picked out. And the person came and it was this guy who everybody called Dopey. And they said, no. And then they shook it all up again and put it back and then shook it all up again. And then they picked out another name, Dopey. And then they put it back, shook it all up again. Dopey. And somebody said, okay. This is it. And it turned out to be the best abbot they ever had. So go figure.

[44:28]

So, the fact that something exists here means that there's a reason for it. I don't know the reason. No one knows. Everything must have its own value. It is very strange that no two things are the same. There's nothing to compare yourself to, so you have your own value or virtue. That value is not a comparative value or an exchange value. It is more than that. When you are just sitting zazen on the cushion, you have your own value, virtue. Although that value was related to everything, that value was also absolute. Maybe it is better not to say too much. So the third line says, interacting brings involvement. A bird comes from the south in the spring and goes back in the fall. crossing various mountains, rivers, and oceans. In this way, things are interrelated endlessly everywhere. And then the next line is, otherwise each keeps its place. This means that even though the bird stays in some place, at some lake, for instance, his home is not only the lake, but also the whole world.

[45:41]

That is how a bird lives. You live in one place, but the whole world is really where you live. Even though we have these arbitrary lines called Canada, United States, Mexico, blah, blah. Those are just arbitrary lines. It's really all one place. It's just one piece. So wherever you stand on the earth, you're standing on the whole earth. If we didn't have all those discriminations, you'd just be standing where you are. I am standing on the earth. I wouldn't say I'm standing in America or or whatever. Who would we vote for? It would be great. Who would we vote for? Who would we vote for? That's right. Well, everybody would be voting for the person next to them.

[46:46]

But also, wherever we are, that's where our home is. Temporarily, we live at Tassajara. I would go back tomorrow and think that I'm living in Berkeley. But that's just an arbitrary home. There's some reason. There's some reasons for that. But this is my home right now. I'm perfectly at home right now. So in Zen, sometimes we say that each one of us is like a steep cliff. No one can scale us. Also, it's like a silver mountain. It's slippery. You can't get up there. They often say this about a Zen master. He's like a silver mountain. and no one can scale us.

[47:49]

So we're completely independent. But when you hear me say so, you should understand the other side as well, that we are endlessly interrelated. If you only understand one side of the truth, you can't hear what I'm saying. If you don't understand Zen words, you don't understand Zen. You are not yet a Zen student. I would say, even though you're a Zen student. Zen. Zen words are different from usual words. Like a double-edged sword. They cut both ways. You may think I'm only cutting forward, but no, actually I'm also cutting backward. So watch out for my stick. You understand? This is very important. How do we deal with people? I'm going to be careful. You have to be careful because something cuts both ways. Whatever you say, whatever you do, cuts both ways.

[48:51]

So you may think that you're saying something to this one, but you're discouraging this one maybe and encouraging that one, or you're encouraging this one and discouraging that one. But your words are double-edged. If you criticize someone too much, that's going this way, but it's also going that way. It may look good, but it also looks bad. So there are two sides. So when we address each other, and when we talk to each other, how to be so careful that your sword doesn't chop off somebody's head, inadvertently thinking that you're doing something good. Of course, at least all the time.

[49:56]

No. It depends. Sometimes it's appropriate, sometimes it's not. Everything depends on the situation. There are no rules. It looks like there are rules, but there are actually no rules. Everything depends on the situation. hitting the makugyo and the spiders going across. If you think that it's not going, that you don't want to hit that spider, just stop and throw everything into confusion. But we think, well, we have the rules, you know, and so we just follow the rule until we die or kill somebody or something. That's not good. Following the precepts means knowing what to do at the right moment. It does not mean following rules by rote. Precepts are not rote rules. It means be careful to understand what you're doing in this situation.

[51:04]

This is called living precepts as opposed to dead precepts. Dead precepts means I just follow the rules no matter what's going on. And this is how the law kills us. Everything depends on the moment, the time, the situation, who's there, what's happening. And then you make the right, you follow the right precept. You follow the precept in the right way according to the situation. We have to study precepts in that way. If you only study precepts as rules, that's not precepts. There are three levels of precepts. Going by the rules, simply going by intuition and then in between is how you take both of those into consideration when you do something.

[52:07]

And that's the living precept. It's called the bodhisattva precept. You know what the guidelines are. But you have to make your decision on each moment according to the situation. What do I do in this situation? Sometimes you have to kill something. Sometimes you have to lie. You know? Sometimes you have to disparage your three treasures. Rarely. But there's no fixed rule. And we get caught that way. We get caught up, well, this is the rule, you know. And... people become rule-bound. And they stand behind rules, you know. Some people, you know, this is the rule, you know, and we follow the rule. But they're ignoring life, the way it's lived. So, oh, this is one too.

[53:17]

So, Zen words are different from usual words. Like a double-edged sword, they cut both ways. You may think I'm only cutting forward, but no, actually I'm also cutting backward. Watch out for my stick. You understand? Sometimes I scold the disciple. No. The other students think, oh, he's been scolded. But it's not actually so. Because I can't scold the one over there? I have to scold the one who is near me. But most people think, oh, that poor guy is being scolded. If you think like that, you are not a Zen student. If someone is scolded, you should listen. You should be alert enough to know who is being scolded. This is how we train. So I have had that example. at Soko-ji, a long time ago, in the Zendo.

[54:28]

I sat in the front seat one time, and well, actually, Richard Baker and I came at the same time, and I kind of went to the front seat, and then I looked up at him, and I thought, well, maybe he should be sitting in the front seat on the row. And he said, no, go ahead. Okay, so I sat down. And then he sat down. And Suzuki Roshi came over and started beating him. And he said, that's your seat. Bam, bam, bam. He didn't beat me for taking the seat. He beat him for not taking the seat. So that was an example for me of somebody being hit. to give me a lesson, it also gave him a lesson, and it also gave me a lesson, he could have hit us both. But also, in Japan, it's very common that you hit the person next to the person that you want to scold.

[55:33]

If you hit the person next to the person you want to scold, then the person who doesn't get hit thinks, oh my God, that poor guy, and that really impresses you. You know, I have caused this problem from my friend sitting next to me by not doing the right thing. That happened at Berkeley when someone was sleeping during seshin, and I was sitting next to the chouseau, and the chouseau got up and tipped me. But it made a big noise. Well, that's the other thing. The person who was snoring, they were actually snoring, but they woke up. So, we used to love to use the stick, but we don't use it anymore because people say, well, my daddy used to hit me with a strap, and it's cruel punishment, but it's nothing like that. The stick is used to wake you up.

[56:41]

as an aid. So you ask for the stick, and then bam, bam, you get a couple of hits. And that wakes everybody up. So one person gets the stick, but also my experience is almost everybody asks for it. I've only stopped using it some time ago. I still use it sometimes in Berkeley during sessions. So when I was a quite young disciple, my Dharma brothers and I went somewhere with our teacher, and we came back pretty late. There are many venomous snakes in Japan. My teacher said, you are wearing tabi, you know what they are, and I am not. A snake might bite me, so you go ahead. We agreed and walked ahead of him. As soon as we reached the temple, he said to us, all of you sit down. We didn't know what had happened. But we all sat down in front of him.

[57:42]

What inconsiderate boys you are, he said. When I am not wearing tabi, why do you wear tabi? I gave you a warning. I am not wearing tabi. You should have understood and taken off your tabi too. But instead you keep them on and walked ahead of me. What silly boys you are. So here he told them what to do, right? And then he's scolding them for doing what he told them to do. If you see this on the level of your usual way of thinking, you can't understand it. So we should be alert enough to hear the meaning behind the words. That's all. We should realize something more than what is said. And sometimes we really take offense at things that are said to us. And we think if we don't realize... We've just taken a face value, and we don't often always get behind the words to understand the intent of the meaning.

[58:49]

And then we hold that for a long time. One night, when I was a student at the Heiji Monastery, I opened the right side of the sliding shoji door, because it is customary to open that side. But I was scolded. Don't open that side, as a senior monk said. So the next morning, I opened the left side, and I was scolded again. Why do you open that side? I didn't know what to do. When I opened the right side, I was scolded, and when I opened the left side, I was scolded again. What a great call. I didn't know what to do. When I opened the right, I couldn't figure out why. But at last, I noticed that the first time a guest had been on the right side, And the second time, a guest had been on the left side. So both times I had opened a side so that a guest had been exposed. That was why I was scolded. At Eheji, they never tell us why. They just scolded us. The words are double-edged.

[59:53]

And this is very typical. Very typical. People, I remember, they used to say to me, you never tell us when we're good. You only tell us when we make mistakes. But that's typical. But then I changed my way and I realized it's good to tell people when they do things well, even if they're not doing them well. I think so. I think so. It's good to be, you know. If you're too kind, too accommodating, that's not good. And if you're not accommodating, that's not good. So where do you find the middle? We're always looking for the middle. We're always looking for the middle so that we can encourage people without putting them on the defensive.

[60:55]

I have a Chinese friend who says that in China being criticized is It's kind of a form of attention that someone thinks enough of you to pay attention and care enough to say something to you. It actually is a sign of respect rather than just being ignored. Yes. But that is not so much our experience here. So how can we listen in a way? Because it can be hard to listen. How do we listen and really hear? Right. So... we can listen. We can do that. Thank you. You know, I remember Bill Quang telling me, Jack Cho telling me about I think they had a garden when he was growing up.

[62:05]

And his mother had him pulling weeds, and she would take little pebbles and throw them at him from time to time, little pebbles, you know, hit him on the head with a pebble. And he said, I didn't like that at all. I thought it was awful. But he appreciated it. You know, when Tatsugami Roshi came to America, he was telling us about this, you know, who was very strict with his students and he made them cry I mean it was just awful but when he died they all cried you know they were all so there's no one way of doing things if it's appropriate to come down on people then do that if it's not appropriate don't do it But there shouldn't be just one way.

[63:06]

So you don't stereotype a person's, a teacher's way. Teachers should have many tricks in their sleeve of how to deal with people, but they all come about at the moment. So people may have methods, but If you depend on methods, you lose something in spontaneity. But I had thought of something when you said that. Anyway, kindness sometimes is expressed as very strict. That's kindness. So kindness has many different varieties. Compassion sometimes doesn't look like compassion.

[64:12]

To hit somebody may be compassionate. I remember one time when my dog used to be very high-spirited. He still is, but I have to say. I have to say. And, you know, he would, you know, be charging and barking. And one time I inadvertently hit him over the head with the end of the leash, which is this big brass thing, and hit him on the head, bonk. And he went, oh, okay. Okay. He just changed, you know. He got this big hit on the head, bonk. Okay. So, you know, you never know what's going to work. But... I think you have to have intention behind your action. Yes. I was a tea ceremony assistant for Nakamura Sunset for four years.

[65:18]

Yeah. And culturally I began to understand. When she said yes, it meant no. That's right. And when she said no, it meant yes, but it took some cultural gymnastics on my part to understand. Yes. Something more than body language. That's definitely more than words. Yes, that's right. But it was a culture thing. Yes, it's a culture thing. And so we have a different culture. And so your training and my training with our Japanese teachers taught us a certain way that we kind of got that to a certain extent. But when they say no, it often means yes. And when they say yes, it often means no. And so you have to intuit what's going on. You know, you can't take it at face value. But what people say, the words, the words that just convey something, but they don't necessarily convey it in the way we're used to hearing it. I appreciated her outfit.

[66:24]

She used to make these samuels that she wore with a vest on top that she designed. And I told her I liked it. And she said she kind of gulped and she grid, you know, she stayed herself and she said, thank you. So hard. She said, in Japan, we don't say thank you. That's right. That's beautiful. You don't say thank you. That's right. When you get a gift, you put it on the altar or something, you don't say thank you. Because it's not for you. It's Buddha. You know? Yeah. So there's a lot of cultural stuff. Cultural stuff that that I think the students of Suzuki had, but doesn't always translate down, doesn't always filter down to the newer students. Yeah. So that's interesting, the transitions. I think one of the cultural things that may be going on is in the last few decades there's been a lot of concern with giving children a lot of self-esteem and encouraging them a lot.

[67:31]

So I think for a variety of reasons, many of us have felt that being uncertain or not knowing or uncomfortable is bad. And a lot of what you're talking about is to be comfortable with not knowing, is to find a way to not automatically think, this is wrong. Yeah. I agree with that. And also, if the teaching doesn't make you a little uncomfortable, that's not so good. It's not so good if it doesn't make you feel a little bit uncomfortable. Because being uncomfortable means, how can I deal with this?

[68:32]

But Tassajara is very beautiful. We get seduced by that easily. I want to be at Tassajara because it's very beautiful. That's not the reason to be here. It's beautiful. I remember being at Page Street and at SoCoG and our first Zendo in Berkeley, which are all on main thoroughfares. cars are going by you know and the people are going by and yelling and you know and shouting and the hookers but we're for a long time at Page Street we're you know walking up and down you know and people stopping and loud and talking and crazy people going by you know great place to do that's it that's the best place to do that's it this is wonderful too But it's a different kind of sasa.

[69:35]

The problem with doing sasa in the tasahara is because it's so nice. Yes? I'm listening to some of this and on a certain level I appreciate the concept of intuition and intuiting what someone else means and what they say. and trying to teach people and also trying to learn how to be comfortable with discomfort and things like that. But I also wonder if there's also a danger of not valuing the way to communicate in such a way that you do try to express what your attention is to someone. Because there is room for misinterpretation. There is room for abuse.

[70:36]

I think we can't be too one-sided in thinking and over-privileging one form of being versus another. There's a way also to communicate to someone instead of just expecting them to understand that when you say yes, you really mean no. You could just tell them something. Are you just trying to, I mean, I think there's a way in which you can tell. I think what I'm trying to say is that that requires a level of trust. It requires, and in order to have that, there has to be, in my opinion, I think there has to be a conscious expression of this is a space, this is a safe space for you to learn. This is a space where I may scold and I may encourage. But can you let somebody know that? so that when it's done, they feel safe enough to learn, to admit a mistake, to understand. I mean, we have abuse, and we have ways in which people just expect you to know something, and sometimes you don't.

[71:41]

Well, let me say something. Where's the abuse here? No, I'm not talking about here. I'm talking about in this situation. Of course, in the world, there's all kinds of dangers. But in this situation, you have to trust this situation that we're not trying to make people be crazy. We're simply trying to wake people up. And there are different ways to do that. And a teacher should be able to wait for just the right moment to... help the student to wake up. Yes, if you don't have the trust, forget it. If you don't have the trust, this is not the place for you. So we have to have that.

[72:48]

And that has to be instilled. So it's not like I think everybody does, but our doubts always come up. So we always have doubts. Doubts are fine. I think if we don't have doubt and recognize doubt and express it, that's not good. We should express our doubt. Because doubt, if we only have faith, that's one-sided. Doubt keeps faith from going off in a funny direction. So doubt is really important because it stabilizes faith. So that should always be there in one form. Not skepticism, but doubt. So I think all the things you say, you know, I agree with. I'm not trying to make people crazy here.

[73:52]

hurt them or something. Most of the time we explain things. But there are times when you have to be able to get beyond the words. Most of the time you have to be able to get beyond the words. So if we're only used to having everything explained in black and white, logically and so forth, and we depend on that, then this is the place for you. Because we help you to get away from that. Just hearing your response to the question, it brings up a big... Well, it's a thing that I've been very aware of since coming out and studying something that's so juxtaposed to my culture.

[74:54]

I was raised in pragmatism. Now, if you open up a door and your seat is over there, then you go from here to your seat and you don't walk all the way over your feet slowly in this posture. It's like, you know, that's not pragmatic. When I came to, you know, Zen Shinji, my grandpa asked me, he said, so you're going to a Buddhist monastery? I said, yeah. And he said, so what do you get? And I was like, well, I don't know. He goes, well, do you get to teach? Do you get a certificate? What are you going to get? I'm like, I don't know. And it's like this... The thing that really is interesting to me is that a lot of the traditions in the East... I'll embrace the part of learning where you can't tell somebody in black and white because there's a danger that they might think they understand. That's correct.

[75:54]

That's exactly right. It might take a few years. It might take a few decades for me to impart something that I've understood over time. And it was really embodied by da Vinci in the West who said that he loved the part of learning that he called fumato, smoke. He said that's when it's the most rich, when you start to study something, but you're confused and you don't understand. He said that's when people tend to give up. But the longer you can abide in the smoke without panicking, the more chance it is that it will dawn on you what it is, and the way it will dawn on you is personal. It's not like my master told me this is the way it is, and now I'm just repeating what my master told me. Right. And so, I don't know, for me it's still, it's a daily thing because I was raised with so much of the pragmatic way of A to B, B to C, and then this thing happens and there's like this trust has to be here that the people that are telling me things or that are working with the system have an insight that I haven't maybe realized yet.

[77:08]

Yeah, I think that's very common. Most people are brought up that way. And this goes against, kind of, a counter to our culture. Country culture. John? and he wanted to find a place to relieve him. So I got to one bush and he was too embarrassed to urinate on the bush because I thought, the virtue of this bush is such, how could I possibly urinate on it? So he held it for a while and walked some more and then he's, even words he has to say, and he just kept it everywhere, there's no place. But he did. I hope so. He did. He finally said, yeah, this is it, my dog, you know.

[78:10]

They'll sniff the flower. They love sniffing flowers. And then they'll pee on it. Flowers love it. You know, they don't care. We think about it. We have to use the toilet because we're human beings. But nobody else in the animal kingdom does that. The Earth receives it. You know, that's... That's what they like. That's what the Earth loves. I did. This goes back to what Sadie was talking about and that there are all of these different ways that the student-teacher relationship tries to foster awakening. But there are also some times when that goes terribly awry. And what do we do? when that happens.

[79:14]

Well, that's also a good koan. So the student always has to know, you know, make a judgment. I think the teacher was wrong here. And, uh, she talks about, you know, if your teacher drinks a lot of sake, does that mean you should drink a lot of sake? Maybe, but that can go two ways. You think, well, because my teacher drinks sake, I will drink sake. So that's a good relationship. But you can also say, because he drinks sake, I understand that. That's him, but it's not me. So it can go either way. And either way is okay.

[80:16]

So although we depend on our teacher, we also should see the faults of the teacher. And I can practice with this teacher even though I see the person's faults. They're not big enough. Because if the teacher sees their own fault, that's really good. Suzuki Roshi was always talking about his faults, you know, and he never hid his faults. He never said, you know, you never found out something about him that wasn't there, that he hid. And so you felt you could always trust him because his faults were right out there. So when a person is open about who they are and what their shortcomings are and so forth, you can trust that person. There's a lot of excusing shortcomings of I am this way and therefore I don't have to.

[81:20]

Oh, that's yourself. That's yourself. Yes. That's not, you know, you can say I am this way. I'm sorry. But I am in this way, so I am what I am and that's what I am. I'm Popeye, you know. But it's not Popeye. It's self-indulgence. It's the reverse. It's justifying yourself. So self-justification is not good. When you see your teacher self-justifying, then you know that's not so good. Maybe you can help the person. But if the person can't be helped, then you have to go somewhere else. The student should be able to help the teacher. It's two ways. It's not just one way. And the student seeing the teacher doing something wrong, she say, you know, it's not good for your students to see you doing this or whatever.

[82:29]

And so, you know, you help the teacher. And that's, you know, the teacher may not like it. Yes, okay. I think that, especially in California, it's such a melting pot. That's right, yes. In my culture, we ask, if someone comes to visit, we offer them things three times, and the third time when they finally say no, they would back up a little bit. But in my other culture, my American culture, that's really annoying. It's like, we want to help, but often we do drive each other crazy. I don't know exactly, but in Japanese culture, you don't say, would you like? You say, here. You never say, would you like? Because you always say no. You always say no.

[83:32]

How come they never liked anything I offered them? Because I'm not offering it to them. I'm asking them if they want it. And so they're not supposed to want anything from you. You know? I'm not supposed to want anything from you. They've come to visit you without wanting anything from you except your graciousness. So you say, oh, please have this. Even though they may just nibble at it, which is usual. But still, you offer. You don't ask. Just because you're giving a gift. And they're not asking for the gift. And I think that's really important. And I remember when I was... visiting here oftentimes in the summer, and somebody would say, would you like to give a talk? I said, no. And I said, you know what? If you ask me to give a talk, I'll give a talk.

[84:34]

But if you ask me if I want to give a talk, that's something else. So you invite people person to give a talk you invite the person to do whatever it is that it that that you want but you don't say would you like to that's just not not good manners I lived with a man named Baba Hari Das he was a teacher at Mount Madonna oh yeah when he first came to this country and I was kind of in that role maybe you could say well it was a small household and people would come and he was the guru and But they'd be safe for too long. And if I asked him if he wanted lunch now, he would say no. Yeah. But if I said, it's time for Babaji's lunch, everyone has to leave being a little bit. Yes. That's right. But it took a while for me to understand I had to sort of take the reins. Yes. Otherwise, he would say no forever. That's right. You have to take the reins when you're in that position. And that's, you know, your learning curve because you don't know if they want something or not.

[85:39]

You know? But you have to intuit and feel it out, you know, and maybe make a mistake or something. But it's like, you know. If I said, would you like lunch, Shabbat, would you invite everyone in the room? I'd have to crank out. That's right. You cannot just serve him. It's like... The what here? Shingi. Shingi? Uh-huh. Oftentimes, there are silent times, and people will talk to me during those times, and I don't know whether to talk to them or to not talk. This is what you do. Really? You don't have to say anything, because when you say something, you're also talking. So, you know... I have to confess that my Jisha and I start talking as soon as we leave the Zendo.

[86:45]

And I'm sorry about that, so I apologize. For both of us. Not a good example. I don't feel like a good example. So there's one more thing which I want to ask. There are questions, a few questions after. And there's one question about, someone said, this is a statement on 70 at the bottom, Roshi, today someone said, no students, no teacher. No teacher, no students. Someone else asked, well, what makes the Roshi the Roshi? And someone said, because he has students. You can't be the Roshi without students. Students can't be students without the Roshi. They are both independent and because they are together.

[87:49]

They're independent because they're together. And yet, and Suzuki Roshi says, yes, together. Without students, no teacher, and the students encourage the teacher. So we have to understand that. You think that the teacher is always encouraging the students, but the students are always encouraging the teacher. And how does the student encourage the teacher? It's by doing their best. The teacher doesn't want anything else from you. You don't have to have an apple or a gift or something. People have done that to me, and I think, oh, God, get that out of the way. Where are you? Where are you? I mean, it's nice to do that. That's okay. But the teacher just wants you to practice. If you have sincere practice that... warms the teacher's heart. So he says, without students, no teacher, and the students encourage the teacher.

[88:49]

It is very much so. If I have no students, I may goof off every day. The students actually keep the teacher in line. Because I have so many students watching me, I must do something. I must study so that I can give a lecture. If there's no lecture, I won't study. But at the same time, I should be very much ashamed of myself if I study just to give the lecture. So usually when I study for a lecture, I go off in another direction, following something interesting, and most of the time I don't study for the lecture. But still, if I don't study, I don't feel so good, because I feel it is necessary to prepare for the lecture. I start to study. But as soon as I start, I go off on my own to study for the sake of studying, not just for giving the lecture. things are going on in this way endlessly and it is good. In other words, the students stimulate the teacher and the teacher stimulates the students and it's all interactive and sometimes the student is the teacher, sometimes the teacher is the student and that's as it should be.

[89:56]

So the teacher should listen to the student when the student is appropriately guiding the teacher and the teacher is appropriately guiding the student. So it's got to be back and forth. I feel the same way when I'm giving a talk. So I'm going to study now because I'm getting the talk. But then I just study for the sake of studying, and it's great. I love it. It's great to be here because I get to study far more than I do otherwise. So someday what I study will help students. I don't know when. Just to feel good, we study. And just to feel better, we practice Zazen. That's one way of looking at it. No one knows what will happen to us after sitting one, two, or ten years. Nobody knows. And it is right that no one knows. Just to feel good, we sit Zazen, actually. Eventually, that kind of purposeless practice will help you.

[91:00]

And someday you may be a teacher. As a matter of fact, You're in a position to be a teacher because you're the Eno. And the people that you're working with, you're teaching by your presence and your humbleness. The same with the kitchen. Kitchen is a really important place for teaching. I mean, that's, you know, the hot box. everybody's in there day and day out working together and how do you harmonize? And in Heiji, the monastery of Heiji, the Tenzo is a Roshi because it's a practice place. It's not just food in and food out. By the way, this morning's breakfast was terrific.

[92:03]

Not only was it food, but there was a lot of heart in it. I could feel that. And the dragon was pink. Yeah. Beet juice. Save the beet juice. Oh, beet juice. Yes. I want to thank you for coming. and joining the practice period. Oh, yeah. And thanks to Hojo-san for inviting you. Yes. And it's been really just so amazing to have you join us in this practice period and share your knowledge, your experience, your wisdom, and, you know, just being yourself. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Well, I appreciate being here, and it was great. And I enjoyed talking to everybody and just getting the feeling of the practice period. And I think you're doing great. And I wish it'd be longer, but this is a good amount of time.

[93:07]

And I'm leaving tomorrow morning fairly early so I can get to the Abbott's group meeting in San Francisco at 1.30. I'd rather be going home and seeing my dog first, but that's not going to happen. Not my wife. I would say no drama since I've known you. Very steady on and no drama. I appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click giving.

[94:12]

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