This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. So tonight we have the first of the two memorial services for Suzuki Roshi commemorating the day he died, 30 years. nine years ago, and many of you know this, but it came up fresh for me again that he died during the first period of Zazen for the Rohatsu Sashin that year. It was a five-day Sashin, and it must have started on the 4th to end on the 8th,

[01:01]

And the zendo was very, very full at Page Street. And everyone was gathered. And during that first period of sauzan, Okusan, Suzuki-sensei, Suzuki Roshi's wife, came down the stairs, down into the zendo to bring Zentatsu Baker up. Come, come, right now. And Hoitsu Roshi, Suzuki Roshi's son, was there. And I think one story right at the end, when Zen Tatsubedra said to Suzuki Roshi, where will I meet you? And Suzuki Roshi took his hand out from under the covers and just made a circle.

[02:08]

and everyone was taken care of because we were sitting. We had those five days to sit, and I wasn't sitting that sesshin. I was in the building, and Suzuki Roshi was, his room was what's now the Kaisando. He was brought there, and the whole sesshin and all the residents came and did prostrations. in the room to his body, and all the disciples were sitting. I can't remember who all was there, but I remember Reb and Mel and Dan Welsh. They were all sitting in the room, if you can picture it, those of you who know Page Street, and then there was incense offering, and each person could bow, make frustrations, pay respects, say goodbye. And every month, on the afternoon of the third and the morning of the fourth, here at Tassahara and the city center and probably other temples, affiliates, Berkley Zen Center perhaps, and other Suzuki Roshi lineage temples have memorial service the third and the fourth of the month.

[04:00]

When Tozan was a young monk, he was at Nanshwan's temple, Dungshan was at Nanshwan's temple, and they were preparing a memorial service for Nanshwan's teacher, Matsu. They were getting ready, getting the offering cups ready, and Nanshwan asked the assembly, preparing a memorial service and offerings for Matsu. Will he come? Will he come to the ceremony? And all the monks were silent. And then Dungshan, little Dungshan, he was pretty new, new to the community, came forward and said, he'll come when he has a companion. He'll come when he has a companion.

[05:20]

And Nan Chuan praised Dung Chuan and said something like, although this jewel is rough, it will do well to polish it. And Tozan, I don't know if he put his hands over his ears, but it was like, don't, don't, destroy the good or something. Don't, in that way, that praise coming too soon can, you know, feed ego or it's like those tracker dogs when they're on the trail and tracking after a scent. If you praise them, they get all confused and kind of lose their, they stop working. You don't Don't praise a tracker dog when it's working. Kind of like that. And a companion, you know, the etymology of the English word is to eat bread together, comb pane, with share.

[06:49]

share a meal, share bread, share life, one reality. And dungshan or tosan, then made memorial services, commemorated his teacher, Yunnan, and when he was preparing that ceremony, a monk said, what did Yunnan teach you? What was the teaching that he gave you? And he said, he didn't give me anything. Well then, why are you doing this memorial service for him if you don't approve of his teaching or he didn't give you anything?

[07:56]

And he said, half approve and half don't approve. He didn't teach me anything directly. which helped Toza not to seek for something outside of himself. Because it was like a sheer wall, perhaps, or like a mosquito biting an iron bull. No place to get a little hold on it. Ungraspability of dustness. How can you get a hold of dustness? But we want a hold of it. Right before coming to lecture, I had one of these, I wouldn't say epiphany, maybe that's too strong, but a kind of aha about a story, a Zen story, that I guess I've been just turning it and turning it so that when something met that story,

[09:31]

There was a glimpse of something, so I'll try to convey it. I don't know if it's possible. And I've actually worked with this story over many years. In fact, once I got, I was so working on this story that I confused it, thinking it was a story about my grandpa, thinking it was a story about Abraham Cutts, And then it was like, no, no, this is about a Japanese teacher, and my grandfather never went to Japan. I really confused you. It was so close. I was so intimate with it. It was a real family teaching. So here's the story. A lot of you know it. It's a story about somebody who's contemporary. In fact, I have a picture of him. and I'm going to forget his name, Soten, Ikasoten, Ikasoten, little Ikasoten, when he was a little boy.

[10:40]

It reminds me of Tozan, because there's that story of Tozan when he was little and being taught the Heart Sutra, saying, but wait a minute, I have eyes, I have ears, I've got a nose. Very, very honest, you know, subterfuge or persona, just, I have a nose, what does it mean, the sutra? So anyway, Ikasoten, is that his name? Ikasoten. When he was little in the monastery, he was sent, this was probably in the early 1900s, he was sent to go get tofu for the noon meal. He was a young monk in the monastery, but little, I think. And so he set off into the village to get the tofu from the tofu store, the tofu seller.

[11:41]

And on the way, he saw this beautiful poster for a circus that was coming to town. And it had all these images and colors and pictures of things and acrobatics and animals. And he just got completely involved in this mural This poster. And then he heard bong, bong for noon service. I got to get the tofu lunch. And he raced to the tofu shop and he said to the man, give it to me. And he said, what? And he said, the tofu. And the guy gave him the tofu. And then he headed back to the monastery. And then he realized he had forgotten his hat. So he ran back to the tofu store and he said to the man, give it to me. And the tofu man said, what? And he said, my hat. And the tofu man said, it's on your head. Race back to be on time.

[12:44]

And when Suzuki Roshi told the story at the end, he said, he was a very good boy. The story, like, what is he talking about? Why is he a very good boy? What makes him say that, that he's a very good boy? He was late. He got all distracted. But today, before coming to lecture, I thought, I kind of got why he was a very good boy. And I'll try to convey what I... Because he was a person of thusness, he was seeking thusness. And his saying, give it to me.

[13:47]

Give it to me. And the fact that that hat was already on his head, he already had it. He already had it. And he was saying with all his might, give it to me. Give it to me. With full body and mind, give it to me. And, of course, he already had it. That spirit, that spirit of practice, I understood this morning as, you know, being a very good boy. And the thusness of getting caught, you know, looking at the poster and being Just entering it, the samadhi, the absorption of color and shape, and ooh, it's coming to town, maybe I'll get to go, and all of that. As just this.

[14:48]

And the just this of being late, and the just this of trying hard to be on time. I think it reminded me, because I had just been reading, which I wanted to bring up, this Tozan student, Ungodoyo, I read this to you earlier, says, you are trying to attain thusness, yet you are already a person of thusness. As you are already a person of thus-ness, why be worried about thus-ness? And then it goes on. This is the versicle, Imo, or thus-ness, Dogen Zenji's thus-ness. And this is Tanahashi-san's translation. Because of thus-ness,

[15:57]

you arouse a boundless aspiration for enlightenment. Someone might ask, well, how can I have bodhicitta arise or how? But it's thusness that brings the whole entire just this arises as bodhicitta or as bodhaisin, the aspiration for enlightenment. Once this aspiration arises, This is kind of a great translation. Once this aspiration arises, you let go of what you have been twiddling with. You put aside childish things. You... I vow with all beings from this life on to hear the true Dharma that upon... Hearing it, no doubt will arise in us, nor will we lack in faith.

[17:02]

That upon meeting it, we shall renounce worldly things. That upon meeting, we shall renounce worldly things, or what we've been twiddling with, or that which is not conducive for liberation and benefit. That upon meeting it, we let it go. Once this aspiration arises, you let go of what you have been twiddling with, you come forward to hear what you have never heard and realize what is not yet realized. This is not at all self-doing. Know that it is so because you are a person of thusness. How do you know that you are a person of thusness? You know it because You want to attain thus-ness. If you want to attain such-ness, thus-ness, then practice thus-ness without delay.

[18:10]

If you want to touch just this, then practice just this immediately. The fact that you want to touch just this is because you are person of thusness. How do you know that you are a person of thusness? You know it because you want to attain thusness. Thusness seeking thusness. who expires to experience thusness is immediately a person of thusness. Now often we entertain thoughts of, I'm not good enough, I'm not what I want to be, I need a lot of improvement, I'm untrainable, I'm un...

[19:25]

put me out to pasture. And this can be very, I think it can be very distracting. The work of what is it that thus comes the work of practicing immediately just this and just this. Just this is it. And that it, that emo, that just this is it, is thus-ness, is both very precise, very accurate, and that accuracy is empty of separate self or concrete substantialness.

[20:42]

Because then there's just this, and just this, and just this. We can't grasp it. We can't grasp it and hold onto it, even if it's wonderful, wonderful or difficult, you can't grasp it. We have to be ever just this. Practice thusness continuously and you will be thus. That's Kasa's translation of constantly perform in such a manner and you will be a person such as they. Your treasure store will open of itself. The new translation is practice thusness continuously and you will be thus. So this preciseness or accuracy of just this, I'm hearing from many of you that

[22:01]

This, just this has become a meditation instruction. I think it is a meditation instruction. Returning to just this. Taking refuge in just this. Settling thoroughly, deeply in whatever the preciseness of just this is. this story that is very beloved, I think, which can also be another meditation instruction story, is the story of Huinang and Nanyue, which is the what is this that thus comes, which she so brought up very eloquently in her Dharma talk, and many people have brought it up.

[23:06]

It seems to really resonate and be kind of treasure store opening of itself, so I wanted to offer that story along with our other Just This and Us This stories. So this story, Huineng, the sixth ancestor from whom flow all the living schools of Zen. I just had an image of visiting Huinang's temple in 2000 when we were in China on this pilgrimage to Zen temples and Tien-Chen Roshi was very hot there and Tien-Chen Roshi doing prostrations and continued bowing and bowing and bowing and bowing like an endless

[24:10]

bow, I think. It was like over a hundred bows, I think. And as he bowed to the sixth ancestor's place where he taught, it was a reconstruction of the temple. People joined in and bowed and bowed and bowed. We just all paid homage, paid our respects to this great ancestor, our great ancestor, Grandpa, Grandpa Hui Nang. So when Nan Wei visited, went to visit Hui Nang, Hui Nang said, where are you from? And Nan Wei said, Sungshan, some place where he was from. And Hui Nang said, what is it that thus comes? And Nang Wei was unable to answer.

[25:15]

And as the story is told, eight years later, he came back to Hui Nang and said, I now understand. What is it that thus comes? I now understand your question. And Hui Nang said, well, tell me. And Nan Nguyen said, as soon as I say it, as soon as I say it's this, I already missed the point completely. And Huynang said, well, are you saying there's no practice in enlightenment? And... Nan Wei said, it's not that there is no practice and enlightenment, it's just that it cannot be defiled. And Hui Nan said, all the Buddhas practiced this non-defilement, this non-defiled way.

[26:27]

You are thus, I am thus too. So he turned this eight years, turning what is it that thus comes. And of course, the Tathagata, the word Tathagata means, Tathagata is the suchness, or the thusness, or the thus come one, is the Tathagata. The Tathagata as an epithet, another name for the awakened one, is that which thus comes. The thus come one, which can't be defiled with ours, saying it's this or that, in a dualistic way. For the time being, for this moment we say, but without some grasping on that, that that's this forever, that's it, this moment.

[27:36]

What is it that thus comes cannot be defiled? And this last line of when all the Buddhas are practiced this non-defiling, this non-dualistic way, you are now thus, I am thus too. So as a meditation instruction or as a personal instruction, a personal fundamental point that you're turning or actualizing. You can turn this as a question. What is it that thus comes? Which, as someone told me, sort of puts them into looking into the future a little bit, kind of leaning. What is it that thus, or what is it? pushes them a little bit into the future, maybe slight leaning.

[28:42]

What is it? But what is it that thus comes? It's already thus come. What is it is not in the future. It's the thus come one. And, of course, there can be a question mark at the end, just very dynamic, and it could also be a statement. What is it that thus comes? What is it? the mind of what, the inconceivability of what, our inconceivable life and reality together with all the great Earth. If we think we know what it is, we will defile it with our dualistic thinking and attachment, probably, and strong views.

[29:54]

So this has been very helpful for me as a meditation instruction. What is it that thus comes? Or just... the mind of what, which is very open, doesn't have the answers, beginner's mind, and there's a place for everything, every single thing, every single being. Every single pain. I was given a gift of something that I had wanted for a long time, which is being part of this project called the Genographic Project. And what, you take a DNA sample and then you send it in for this testing and they, through this,

[31:18]

they can show these different genetic mutations that happen over time, and they're associated with migration patterns. So I just received last week a kind of study based on my mitochondrial mutation DNA. of my ancestors, the path that they took, and what group I'm in. I'm in the haplong group W. I thought I should get a t-shirt that says haplong group, kind of like haplong Cassidy or something, haplong, haplong W. And the map shows Africa, And we're all, this is matrilineal, this is just from the mother side.

[32:28]

My foremother of thousands and thousands of years ago in Africa, East Africa, and then it shows, you know, from that group of people, a small group left, and one, there was one mutation. And that was passed on to the women in that line of descendants. And that group moved up, and they moved up out of Africa. And then there was another mutation which showed, you know, and then it has me going into the Sinai Peninsula, not me, these ancestors, these ancestors into the Sinai Peninsula, And then from there, there was a split, and they went into, it was one of like 10% of groups that went into Eurasia, kind of Russia area, and into Europe.

[33:39]

And it says 25,000 years ago at that point, there was a mutation and those people went, anyway, it's absolutely, I found it just absolutely fascinating, whatever it means. And there's a DVD that came along with this study and it shows, you know, there's one, there's one, not that there's only one, there was only one woman, you know, 150,000 years ago, But the survivors, the succession, can be traced back to this one ancestor. And all of us bear those, the genes of this one woman. And in this DVD, which might be fun to show here on a Thursday night or something, that this scientist is tracking and doing this testing all over the world.

[34:45]

There's hundreds of thousands of these tests where they're doing this tracking. And he finds somebody in the middle of Mongolia or that part of the country. And according to his genetics, his ancestors had been in that same place for like 40,000 years. He like found this one person who traced back to when there was a change that came, et cetera. Anyway, at the end, it shows the migrations and how going over the Bering Straits and into North America and how the whole world was populated. And at the end, the scientist says, there is no such thing as race. There are no races. We are all Africans. Through this gene study, there are it's all one with these slight variations, you know, that can be traced.

[35:52]

Anyway, I just found it very confirming and I felt like this is peace, you know, this is This is, I am thus, and you are thus, our shared inter, inter, inter-being. And that's in the form realm, right? Studying in this way and looking at these wonderful things. Maria and I were laughing on the way down because she was reminding me of a skit that was

[37:37]

done at Tassahara, a mid-practice period skit where the kitchen crew kind of roasted me. They did a skit about me, and Sonia will remember this, I think. And they brought in big stacks of books for me to give my lecture, which over the years I've had a tendency to bring far more in than I can, and I don't even open them. I've got a couple here. I keep bringing them in. So it doesn't matter if you remember anything of the lecture. I can't remember any lecture from any session pretty much that I've ever sat, either that I've spoken or that anybody else has spoken. One needn't worry about getting it or getting it.

[38:38]

It reaches you in a way that... can't be defined exactly. Really, I don't remember any lectures. I do remember Sashin. I remember working with what is it that thus comes, whatever form it took, mostly pain, mostly facing myself over and over, And maybe not understanding that that very wanting so much to be true to my true nature, that in itself was, as Dogen says, because you already are a person of bestness, you are making this effort.

[39:46]

One might say, well, that's pretty circular reasoning here. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And we can't somehow get out of that and look at it because we are thus. And we fall to the ground seven times, and we get up on the ground, on that very ground, eight times. We feel that we fail or fall, and learning from that very, and that there was ground there. There was ground there, to meet us, and learning from that.

[40:52]

And Suzuki Roshi cautions to not, just because there was ground there doesn't mean you can just, well, it's okay, ground will be there, I'll just fall all over the place. It's always going to be there, right? He says, not to keep making the same mistake over and over and over. You know the ground will be there, but that's not the spirit. Let us not be casual about our practice and our life together. Relaxed, yes. informal, sometimes. Thank you very much, kitchen.

[42:04]

So, Do we have any questions? Just a comment, a brief comment on the genealogy story. Yes. Also about the ground. I did that too. And the white people took here from India. And they went up to North Africa, Italy, like that. What haplog group are you in? I forget. And I also felt very, I felt vigorous. With that information, I felt very amazed and appreciative of the science, the precision of the science, especially about the larger feeling connected to everything. So I took that information to . Yes. Yes. And I told him about it.

[43:14]

And I said, yeah, Kenya, that's where everybody started. And he was like, I said, what do you mean? He went looking for his great-great-grandfather in the Congo, where he was buried, the bone was buried. And he couldn't find, no one could find the bone. And what he said was, the ground in the Congo is so acidic that even the bone Yeah, in this video, did you see the video? Did you look at the DVD? They go to Australia and there was a mutation that showed that the migration went to Australia, how they got there over open sea.

[44:18]

There was a land mass, it looks like. And when they talked to these Australian, Aboriginal Australians about this origin, they say, no, we came from here. Their stories say they arose from the earth there. So you wouldn't believe it. Scientists said something like, we have stories too. Our stories are called science. And, you know, he tried to... It didn't make a difference. Thank you. I'm really interested in your haplock group. Whatever haplock means, I don't even know. Yes? Yes? Certainly. I wanted to, first of all, thank Santa Claus for being here this evening.

[45:26]

But I also wanted to say I feel very supported by the Sunder. And I wanted to thank you all for the support. to say that if I have made any mistakes, I am sorry. And it has been very difficult. Thank you. Thank you, Jackie. Yes, Sarah? What was the last thing you said?

[47:22]

Yeah. You know, this confirming of one body, you know, through genetic testing or something, is And to say, you know, kind of as a dream of maybe if people really understood this, they would understand and there would be peace or something like that. I could feel the kind of wish, wishful feeling. But there's also, you know, greed, hate and delusion, right? And attachment to views and ignoring and self-serving, and there's all sorts of kleshas, right?

[48:54]

So, yeah, we have, we have something that we feel is so clear, like about the environment, let's say, couldn't be clearer, and based on someone's karmic formations or strong and strong views. There's no room to look at it or entertain it or to turn. And then, and same with us. How do we relate in a way that's useful and that helps someone to turn or to wake up or to find their flexibility? Are we able to do that? Or do we take a position too? I belong to this group.

[49:57]

I'm on the Steering Committee of the California Interfaith Power and Light, and it's an interfaith group working to bring congregations to consciousness about climate change and so forth. There's, you know, people struggle because they have different opinions about or different belief systems, right? And yet they share this. But it's not, even that isn't always completely easy, you know? So how do we skillfully... It's almost impossible to change minds, you know? But how do we skillfully make an effort to speak in such a way that someone can hear? Offer something that's skillful enough that someone sees, oh, I'm included in this.

[51:05]

I think it's a huge challenge. It's a life for death challenge. It's the challenge of our lives, right? Science is wrong a lot. Politamide and rubber O-rings being two of the most painful and extreme examples. But I think that's sort of not the point. Science is our modern way in its best form of staying with the question, what is it that thus comes? That's what scientists do. They don't find answers, they stay with the question. And remember it's always, the scientific method is to always disprove, not prove the hypothesis, but disprove and go after what's not,

[52:12]

working and what's not right. So that, to me, is that the appeal of science is not that it gives us answers, but that in the best form, it does truly provide a model of how to stay with the question. Thank you. I'm just giving a look at what is it meant. brothers, wives, sisters, husband, who's a professional philosopher. And she said scientists make lousy philosophers. There is no science, but there is this clear observation. He's not as interested, he's an academic. And I agree, it comes back, it comes back to clear observation. But kind of the same game. Yeah, yeah, clearly observed. That's one of our mottos around here, right? Your wife's sister's husband's?

[53:15]

My husband's husband. In another culture that you need with that. Yeah. As a kid, I used to, this is why I repeated it, because I used to say my mother's brother's wife's sister's husband's cousin is Eddie Cantor. For those of you who don't, Eddie Cantor was a an entertainer. And my mother's brother's wife's sister's husband's cousin was Eddie Cantor. So there. Yes.

[54:50]

That is a big question for you, as you say, and I think that is the question. And it's a... It's... it's a deep it's the deep question of living out our life awake and aware and it can take all these forms you know diversity and issues of cultural you know it takes all the forms but that question how do we live that out and convey it by example and in all other ways. clearly observed.

[56:22]

Anyway, it seems that you can't necessarily clearly observe because it's necessarily framed by where you're coming from. It's not that there is objective observation. You can see only as far as the eye of practice can reach. from home to out of practice cannot see so far. So that's part of the things. You can't see things that, you know, there's that research where you don't see things that you're not used to seeing. And so when you say clearly observe and science, it's like, this is sort of, you know, based on Sarah's comments and Greg and Valerie's comments, it's yes, we can observe. our observation is still going to be limited.

[57:24]

Yes, yes, exactly. Clearly observe to the extent that you can observe, but at least clearly observe that. And like the Genjo Koan, you know, circle of water, right? You go out in a boat and it looks like a circle of water. That's as far as your practice eye can see. That's what it looks like. You have to relate to it, but at least see the clear circle. but the ocean is infinite in variety. But that clearly observing what you can see, let's see if I can say this, as far as your eye of practice can see or your karmic consciousness can see, and in each moment of clear seeing is what you can see and the emptiness of that very thing.

[58:24]

And you don't have to have unlimited vision. You just, just one thing that you can clearly see, you see its thusness, which is also its emptiness. there has to be clear seeing. If the lessness is emptiness, and I'm clear seeing emptiness, then I would see that my eye of practice is limited. Yeah. Yes. Those who are filled with Dharma know that there's something missing. next hallo... hallo... hallo type? Haplo group, yeah. Haplo group.

[59:27]

And there's the congo. And the people in the... has a different view, even though they're looking at the same thing. And they have different information. And it's both empty. Yes. And let's have a cup of tea. Let's play drums, right? There was someone... Yes, Lou. To the dead? To the dead? The way that we pay back our gratitude and our debt, our deep debt is to live out our practice life and we will be companions to all the Buddhist ancestors.

[60:51]

At the time, I felt comfortable about it, and later I thought about it and about it being said earlier about we have a place to leave here, right? And so, for myself, it feels comfortable. I know that I want to even though at times, you know, they're, you know, you're not wanting to say it's over, but I am in a place where like, yeah, I'm just so grateful and I'm so definitely here, but I think, well, it's a choice that to present that to somebody. I think that it concerns me a little bit to have the opportunity Well, you can leave, or you can say, and if I, and do things when it's wrong, you know, do things like you do things here.

[62:08]

But even if that's true, where does there need to be a wider embrace on a spiritual level? Because people come and think, and sometimes they, I think sometimes it just might be not ready for a particular modality of practice or something. Like, I don't think I could have started with that. I started with a really non-traditional teacher. And I think that because of that, when it came to them, I could do that. So I just wonder if you can speak to that a little bit. Yeah. Well, I... What I didn't mean was like, you know, our way or the highway or something like that. Yeah, yeah, nevertheless. So what I want to always for people to understand is that they're here voluntarily because they want to be here.

[63:17]

Nobody's keeping them. I think that's a really important point. There's a tendency to turn into, why are you making me do this? Or they're so mean, they make us get up. It's like, hello, you know, you're paying to be here, you know. Do you want to be here or not? So I like to bring that up. On the other hand, there are accommodations. But part of the way or part of being here is to be able to talk about what's not working. And there's plenty of room for that. That's all part of it. That's within. That's fully within. So... Yeah, we're talking about the person who was 80 years old and did the practice period and they had accommodations and that's fine. I think the reason that I bring it up is because I think that sometimes the atmosphere is foreboding. I'm not sure that's the right word. And so I think that, like you said, I can't remember anything from any question.

[64:21]

And I think that when I started practice, there were certain critical things that were said to me that I don't know if I could have continued or if I would have continued on the path if it wasn't for that. One of them was when I asked a question and I was in a lot of pain and this question was really meaningful to me and the answer that I received back, I just felt like No, no, it didn't work for me at all. And so I wrote to somebody in the, another person in the community and asked a question about that. And she responded saying, well, in my experience, sometimes it's been curious to understand the answer, and sometimes the teacher isn't skillful in the response. And the same person another time said, well, Buddhism is, I don't find Buddhism to be perfect or to be a,

[65:22]

perfect practice, so to speak, but yeah, that's such a deep commitment. And so I think that we're not spoken yesterday of this concern in me for others and for people. Like I want that, I want that to be so abundantly clear because I think that sometimes the atmosphere No, I think I understand your concern and, you know, the effort to actually meet people where they are with, and often from a lecture, people will, something will meet them, it'll be different for everyone.

[66:23]

That's really important. people feel met by the teaching, and that will encourage them to continue to practice. And sometimes it's true, the atmosphere or the style really can be, there's not affinity, or at that time in their life there's not affinity, later there might be. not holding rigidly to this is our way, but this is this offering. And if there's resonance, or even a little bit, try it out, you know? See what's there for you. Yes. You also tell the story about the monk who's sweeping the floor, and the teacher, the master, somebody said, oh, there's a speck of dirt, and monk left.

[67:25]

Yeah. That would be great, yeah. We've got all these stories of those very people who you know, started farms and are all over the world doing fabulous things. So we've got a lot of those stories. This one was, yeah, this was a sad story. But yeah, there's affinity and resonance, and there's also, can you hear the Dharma from that particular teacher? Maybe not, maybe somebody else. Or walking into this room, someone would say, oh, it's so dull, it's all black, and ooh, it's just so boring. And somebody else might say, oh. Oh, thank goodness, I can finally sit. Somebody else goes into a shrine room with color and gold and figures and tankas and they love it.

[68:30]

And someone else can't practice there. So it's really karmic affinities. And Buddhism is wide enough and there's more lineages that are being created this very minute, you know, as Buddhism comes into different countries in Europe and and here. So there'll be, I think there's something for everybody, really. Yeah. I'm ready to stop, except I asked, oh, Lucy had her hand up. So, Lucy, that'll be the last question. Yes. It's just like Zazen, you know?

[69:53]

We go off and then it's like, back we come, you know, and making that effort to come back, like racing to get the tofu, coming back to our breath, you know. We've been, wherever we've been, we've been, Big Plans Reggie, right? We just did a whole bunch of stuff, and then we come back, you know. So I think that is, that is part of our practice circuit, like that, you know. Thank you very much. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our programs are made possible by the donations we receive. Please help us to continue to realize and actualize the practice of giving by offering your financial support. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click giving. May we fully enjoy the Dharma.

[70:56]

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