This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Perhaps we've taken up our Zen practice in order to finally really help people And it's still not clear. We still get mixed up. been looking at a commentary on, and a comparison maybe, between Zen practice and other kind of practices by Chogyam Trungpa, this book called The Skull Cup and the Tea Cup.

[01:32]

And it was edited by an old friend and Zen student who was at Tassar with me, and just reading the description of Cho Gyam Trungpa Rinpoche's connection with Suzuki Roshi was very heartwarming. He felt that Suzuki Roshi was his true like his teachers back in Tibet, like his father. Suzuki Roshi was like his father. And they connected very deeply. And I just read about the times they spent together and how they met.

[02:35]

It was fascinating. What was interesting for me was someone from outside the tradition making comments about Zen monastic life and how they understood it, how Chogam Trungpa understood what it was we're doing. It was pretty interesting. One thing he mentioned was the precision and the accuracy of Zen practice. So I've been turning that and appreciating the emphasis, maybe, or the care or the offering of these opportunities to be precise, to be really there, really there

[03:45]

for oneself and others. And the opportunities that are offered through our regular daily old practice of getting up, washing up, coming to the Zendo, taking our place, eating our meal, folding our cloths, all these opportunities to be present. And we might question, like, is this necessary really to create this situation? Mightn't it be, as someone said, over the top, you know? And for some, it might be over the top.

[04:55]

Or for you, it might be over the top. And if so, as you know, you're free to leave right now. Thank you for coming. More and more, I realize that our... our habits of mind, our karmic consciousness that creates suffering and the causes of suffering is so strong, so strong, we need something just as strong to meet it. And that strength, that wonderful, powerful strength that we have, which is directed in ways that don't actually help others, that don't support and help ourselves, still it's powerful.

[06:02]

It's almost inexhaustibly powerful. And how to turn that for the benefit of others, that power, rather than dissipating it or turning it towards non-beneficial activity. So we need, I think, this strong, strong support and this seshin practice and practice period practice or Sangha, residential practice is the result of many, many, many people working together to craft something that is strong enough and powerful enough to meet the power that individuals have.

[07:12]

I've been looking at the ten ox-herding pictures over the years, and you know, an ox, the ten ox-herding pictures illustrate a kind of spiritual journey or quest. And it's an ox-herder looking for the ox and sighting the ox, or first sighting just the tracks and then the tail. and then taming the ox. But an ox is a powerful animal. Enormous strength, enormous endurance, and a wild ox can ruin the crops, right, around a muck. So this taming and this one picture that I was of the ox herding pictures is the ox herder is riding the ox home and he's not holding reins or making it go one way or the other there.

[08:36]

He's riding on it's a he but it could be an ox herder or a he or she is riding the ox home playing on a kind of flute. Just the two of them, just making music together. So this continuous effort to be present, watch, attune with our body-mind, in a very precise, accurate way, and allow others to help us with precise, accurate way. Not just for the sake of being fussy, but to help us to train

[09:49]

This kind of continuous effort is necessary forever. It takes different forms, but continuous practice, continuous effort is necessary to embrace and sustain and maintain peace, So we've been turning almost like music, as someone mentioned to me, the phrases, just this, practicing immediately just this, and accepting completely just this with no alternative.

[11:02]

including our resistance to just this as just this. And I wanted to bring up, actually a number of stories I've been wanting to bring up around this turning of just this Dungshan, who we've been talking about, whose teacher, when he asked his teacher, if people ask me about your reality, how will I portray it or how can I, what can I say about it? And his teacher was silent for a while and then said, just this is it. Just this person. And later, many years later, a monk asked Dongshan, at the time when Dongshan was making offerings at a memorial service to his teacher, .

[12:37]

And there'll be, actually I've forgotten what day of the week is it, tomorrow afternoon we have Suzuki Roshi? So tomorrow afternoon, the third of the month, and actually the third of December is, Suzuki Roshi died on the fourth of December, 1971, so this is the 39th memorial service. But each month we have this memorial service and we make offerings and and dedicate the merit to, with gratitude to our teacher and founder, Shogakshunryu Dayo Sho. And in this story, Jungshan was making his memorial offerings. And a monk said, Oh, I brought my glasses. That's a good idea. I still can't read it.

[13:44]

So, just like we have a picture of Suzuki Roshi, there was an image, probably a painting, of Ungan Donjo, and Tozan was making offerings, and a monk said, Ungan Donjo said, just this is it, did he not? And Tozan said, yes, he did. And the monk said, what was his meaning? And Dungshan said, back then, I almost misunderstood what my teacher was saying. And the monk asked, I'd like to know if Ungan Donjo really knew this is it or not. And Tozan said, if he didn't know, how could he have said that?

[14:50]

And if he did know, why did he say that? Why was he willing to speak this way? If he didn't know just this, is it? how could he even say, just this is it? And if he did know, how come he was willing to say that? And later, another teacher commenting on this story said, A child then knew a father's compassion. A child then knew a father's compassion.

[16:04]

So if he didn't understand, how could he say it? If he did understand, how was it that He was willing to say, just this is it. Isn't that? If just this is it, is it necessary to say, just this is it? Or is that extra? Is that adding something? Adding frost to snow? Or a head on top of a head? Or gilding the lily? If just this is it, then just this is it. What are you even pointing at? a just-is-it-ness pointing at a just-is-it-ness. And then this other teacher saying, a child then knew a father's compassion. And this struck me, you know, that in the koan, in the story it says, Un Gandonja waited a long time.

[17:12]

before he answered. In that space, in that silence, there was compassion, boundless compassion. And so he knowingly and willingly defiled by saying that, just this is it. out of compassion. And this is how it's possible to help. This is the Buddha after his enlightenment when he was just enjoying, enjoying just this is it.

[18:15]

walking by the side of the river, and he wasn't going to teach. What is there to teach? Knowing all so thoroughly, just this is it. What more can you say? Under the Bodhi tree, the story is that the Buddha said, upon his awakening, marvelous, marvelous, all beings without exception are completely and thoroughly enlightened. All beings and the great earth are completely and thoroughly enlightened with me, except because of their delusions and attachments and confusion, they don't understand.

[19:18]

They don't realize it. But it's just this person. So for a while there, he wasn't going to teach. And then there was a request from Brahma and being celestial beings, I think. Please, there are beings who have, you know, their eyes are just a little bit cloudy and they'll be able to hear. And so he came down from the mountain. It's called coming down from the mountain, attaining Buddhahed and let go of the attainment, not sticking, not attaching, but coming down from the mountain out of compassion.

[20:32]

So if Ungan Donjo didn't understand, how could he say, just this is it? And if he did, how was he willing to say it? But he knowingly and willingly transgressed, which is the Bodhisattva's way, returning to the world to help beings, even though there are no beings to be helped, even though there's just this person. There's another story about Tozan when he's doing a memorial service again for There's a number of stories about Tozan and memorial services.

[21:49]

In this one, someone asked, you know, how come he was offering, and he said he honored him because he didn't exhaustively teach me anything. all the ways his teacher allowed him to find his way How do we help people? What is helping people?

[22:53]

In emptiness of giver, receiver and gift, what is helping? The teaching of the four Dharma seals, one might say is, relates to the Buddha's realization. The four Dharma seals are the truth of suffering or suffering, impermanence, no abiding self, and nirvana or tranquility. And the four seals or descriptions of our shared reality. The impermanence and emptiness or no abiding self, when we live in that truth, when we live according to the truth of impermanence and no abiding self, then the suffering which

[24:13]

arises from living in such a way where we're grasping after permanence and after self. Once we live in accord with the truth of impermanence and no abiding self or emptiness, then our suffering that arises from grasping after permanence and self It's not that there isn't pain and the suffering of the body, but that particular kind of suffering is quieted. And then this fourth dharma seal of nirvana, which, you know, don't find... I'm drawn to using that word, but... or talking about it, or understanding, what does that mean? Is that some place you go?

[25:18]

I used to think it was some place you got to go to. But this nirvana as tranquility or the peace of living in accord with impermanence and not-self, we can call that peace. taking our posture, our mountain stillness on this day with the cloud cover and the kind of moist warmth we're moist today.

[26:30]

Just in the same way as a sponge, a dry sponge, you know, won't mop up water. It needs to be wetted, you know, it needs to be moist, and then it picks up spills and water. But a dry sponge, you'd think it's dry, why doesn't it just soak it up? But it needs moistness. And I feel by the fourth day of Sashin, we're all We've all been moistened by our own efforts and by our return over and over again to our Bodhimanda, to our seat, coming up against our pain, physical pain, mental, emotional pain. We become... not broken. It doesn't break us, but it moistens us, softens us, tenderizes us.

[27:35]

And in that moist body-mind, we can hear, we can allow things to come forth and realize themselves through us. in us the beauty of our of our life and the valley and this is not it doesn't just happen that way during Sashim this is continuous practice of grass and sky and earth But often we're not moist enough, soft enough to be there.

[28:39]

We're in a big hurry. We got things to do. We got big plans. Big plans. There's a children's story that I used to read to my kids. I think it was called Aira. And it was a story of this little boy named Ira who was invited to sleep over. This is a digression, but who was invited to sleep over at his friend Reggie's house. And Reggie had big plans what they were going to do. First, we're going to jump on the bed. Then we're going to make popcorn. Then we're going to play a game. Then we're going to have a water balloon fight. Then we're going to do all these things. Reggie had big plans. Anyway, Ira was the first time he slept over, and he had wanted to bring his stuffed animal. But he thought, you know, Reggie probably doesn't have one, so I'm not going to bring it. Anyway, they played and played, and then Reggie got really tired and laid down on his bed, and he got his stuffed animal and tucked it in.

[29:52]

And Ira looked and thought, he has a stuffed animal. I want to get my stuffed animal. So he lived next door. He went home and he got his stuffed animal, which I think was named Fru Fru, something like that. And he brought it over to Reggie's house. And when he got over, he said, I've got my stuffed animal too, Reggie. Reggie? Reggie? Reggie had fallen asleep. So all the big plans were kind of over for the night. So I always think of that we often have big plans, Reggie, you know, big plans, and we get really tired out and just want to kind of go to sleep with our stuff down. That's become a kind of family saying, big plans, Reggie. What was I talking about?

[30:56]

So, yeah, so we often have big plans, Reggie, and we don't really notice others' feelings, the beauty, the taste of the food, that our shoulders are up around our ears, you know, because we've got big plans. So I think I'd like to invite us to, you know, And I think that's what Sashin does. It's like toss away the big plans and just stay with that which is before you. Can we do that? Can we tie our shoes? That's a Suzuki Roshi quote where he said, all you people have big plans, Reggie. He didn't say that, but you've got all these big plans about enlightenment and awakening. You can't even tie your shoes. That's kind of a big plans, Reggie. Can we do the most simple thing with fullness and awareness and love?

[32:07]

This will help beings. This is helping beings. This is beings being helped. And so someone mentioned last night when I spoke at the last period of Zazen, that poem, don't seek from others or you'll be estranged from yourself. I now go on alone. Everywhere I encounter it, it now is me. I now am not it. We must understand in this way to merge with suffering. Not with suffering. also to merge with suffering, to merge with suchness.

[33:12]

And someone mentioned they've heard it as harsh, a kind of harshness in kind of like, don't seek from others. And in discussing it, you know, and Michael's question yesterday about, well, what about our seeking or our relationship with others? And is that the same seeking? And I came upon this image, which I just wanted to share with you, which is the way we practice with others and help others and appreciate others and live together in harmony with others is a kind of water, seeking water, water running downhill and going into the pools and creeks and eventually the ocean. And you might say, well, that's a kind of seeking maybe, but it's It's not the seeking that presupposes my lack.

[34:16]

I don't have what it takes. I'm not okay. I'm not good enough. I'm a mess. I'm a failure. I'm outside of the human family. And I've got to seek and get something to fill that from others. I don't think it's that kind of seeking. in this seeking of our codependent life together, unfolding it together. So I just wanted to clarify that. So are there any... Anything you would like to bring up or any questions, concerns? I'm not sure how directly related this is, but I'm sure it is.

[35:21]

The A.H. also sounds awfully realistic to me. Is that something wrong about your... All the other stuff in the content book feels fully baked, and it feels half-baked, almost every step. Half-baked, did you say? Yes. I think it needs to go into the oven of your heart to be fully baked, those vows. It's just a long expression of vowing of dogen. Yes, it's dogen. The ehe is ehe dogen, ehe dogen ga eosho, ehe kosho hotsu ganmon, it's the vows of the high priest dogen. And you can find it. Part of it is in the Mountains and Rivers Sutra, a good chunk of it.

[36:21]

So it's these vows. And it has a kind of fervor to it. And I kind of, I always feel, you know, the first line, I vow with all beings from this life on throughout countless lives to here. the true Dharma, and upon hearing it, no doubt, I vow it's like it's an opening and an asking for help. So, you know, maybe it's Dogen's knowingly and willingly transgressing or defiling in order to help us be accurate about what we need to do too, what practices we need to take up. You know, that particular image of the eyelash on the palm and the eyelash in the eye, it's not that you put it in, it's that it gets in there, you know.

[38:08]

That particular image... relates to the bodhisattva who, you know, as we get more and more moistened, you know, more and more we see suffering in others and are suffering earth and world and ourselves. And so our kind of not even noticing, not even disregard, disregard includes kind of regarding something, but it's not even noticing, being oblivious. And the more we practice, actually, the more unhidden the suffering in the world is and our own suffering, too. So I wouldn't say that we create a situation and put painful things in our eyes.

[39:12]

There already are many, many painful parts of our life that we've been ignoring or not taking care of or unable to withstand, you know, running from. So Sashin, you know, is this created time. Sometimes, you know, I've heard it described as the jewel of the crown of our practice. This unusual, you might say, practice of with others sitting together and the pain that's already there of various kinds has a chance to be taken care of with thoroughness and quietness and You know, watching how we close to it and then open and close to it and run and open.

[40:16]

So it's not a masochistic kind of tricky trick thing. I don't feel like that's what it's about. It's facing our life and giving ourselves the chance to face at the deepest level we've ever faced it. How about you, Skylar? that kind of a thought adds more pain to the pain.

[41:38]

To add the thought, I shouldn't be bothered by this, or I shouldn't be feeling this, or there must be something wrong with me if I'm in so much pain, or those kinds of thoughts are adding fuel. It's another, it's an additional, there's already physical pain, which is kind of, I think of physical pain as a kind of clean, It's like it just is what it is, that sensation, that strong, strong, strong sensation, and you can stay with it. It's not so mysterious or tangled up or twisted or something. It's just burning, throbbing, piercing, heat, sharp, dull, it has, it's kind of clean. What you just described, the kind of pain you just described, which is you shouldn't be feeling that.

[42:41]

You're not okay if you can't stand this, or if you're bothered by this. That's a whole other kind of pain, and it's very, that's much harder to deal with, actually. It's not so clean, it's very... I remember Darlene Cohen once described it as like digging your hand down into a lagoon and pulling up this sort of, what is it? Some kind of a thing. Like really very, I don't know, something about it that's not so direct. And it's discretionary. You know, pain in your back is, okay, can I relax and What is it? Am I contracting and adding to it by bracing against? But the thought, you shouldn't be feeling this or be bothered by it, is really extra.

[43:44]

And if you can come back to just this is it, also that thought of you shouldn't be feeling it is just this is it, but it's more tricky, you know, So to come back to the physical strong sensation, just directly feel it and allow it. And it's not about should or shouldn't. This is what's happening. This is what I'm feeling. That's an excellent question because this isn't some kind of endurance contest or deprivation chamber.

[44:54]

This is to find out how to really be with whatever comes up. And if you feel like there's some damage being done or something, that needs to be addressed. That should not be skipped over. And all of us are working with this. What's indulging? Like the smallest thing, oh, no, no, I might be damaging, which is overboard, and a kind of competition endurance thing with ourselves, how much I can stand. I think we're all working with that. And it will change from day to day. Yeah. And it has changed, yes? Yeah. And it will change, this is what, the fourth day, so this will continue to unfold for each one of us.

[45:58]

This kind of question of... Okay. Valerie. Only recently have I become even remotely willing to entertain the possibility that to be helpful may mean to not be there. Which doesn't mean running away and doesn't mean taking my toys and going home. It means I have tried the very, very best I can and I can't meet you. I can't meet the situation. And it feels terrible. It feels like failure and it feels like You know, I'm a good person, and I want to be able to relate, and I can't do it. And I'm willing to even consider that the best thing to do sometimes to help all beings is to not play and still lose.

[47:04]

And when you say, did everyone hear Valerie? Yes? So when you say you've... cried and tried, and you've come to the realization that the best way is to not, not play, or not, yeah. And when you say that, do you have a kind of really long view, like, for the time being, or for the foreseeable future, or? What it feels like is, and I've actually said this on one occasion, is I don't have the skills at the moment to be able to do anything constructive or compassionate. And it doesn't feel like forever. It just feels like, I just, I can't do it. I don't know how. I don't know how. That's what it is. It's not, it's not, I can't, I won't. That's take my choice. Yes. It's more like, I don't know how. Yeah. And when I hear you say that, what I hear is, that's wisdom.

[48:06]

That's knowing wisdom. exactly what the situation is with clarity, rather than, sometimes people keep battering on the door, you know? Yeah. And that doesn't work. And so somehow, I don't, not to contradict you, but I don't feel it as failure. I feel it as you've done the best as far as your practice eye can see, And for now, we're having time out. And that's a practice. So I think the mystery of how it is that two people can't see eye to eye or hear each other or appreciate each other, that is a mystery and a sadness that we feel.

[49:08]

Yeah. And what's coming up for me as you're saying that is that the continued attempts, the battering at the door, the result of that is resentment. And the result of this sort of giving up temporarily is sadness. Yeah. And the two would actually have the sadness. I would too. Yeah. Resentment is very poisonous actually. Yeah. And contagious. Sadness... is a body thing, you know. Thank you. On this fourth day of session, I wonder if you would address for me the issue of fatigue. So the instructions are to follow the schedule completely. thinking about that in relation to you.

[50:29]

Somehow with your added duties of being awake about and then serving, I thought, hmm, I don't know about that. I don't know if there's a way to change it, but it's a lot. And then staying with the schedule the whole day. So when is it not appropriate to follow the schedule is when it's appropriate rest when it looks like I think I really need rest now I'm doing this schedule of taking my rest for the benefit of out of compassion for the many I take my rest so if that is done in community I mean in dialogue you know then it can be worked out And it's not leaving the schedule.

[51:33]

I thought there was something about part of this machine is to push us to our edge. And when is that edge stretching me? And when is it not? Yes. I imagine that's a question lots of people might be having, you know, about all the forms, you know, about eating just what's offered, you know. Some people have told me about their secret stashes, you know, of goodies. In fact, people have told me that they specially ordered things on the Tantra for Sachin, you know. Which, you know... So this... What is... What is the most important thing here, really?

[52:53]

And... To overdo it for whatever reason has its own karmic consequences. And resentment is one of them. To underdo it and to not be in accord has its own karmic consequences. I was talking with someone about if you have lots of treats during the day in your room, when tea comes and that cookie arrives, you know, that one cookie or a cup of dried fruit, you know, it's like, oh, who cares, you know? I'm already, I've just finished two chocolate bars, you know? And then the beauty of that experience with everyone when that treat comes in and that, I remember my first session,

[53:53]

My first one day sitting, that treat, it was, some of you know the story, it was a lemon bar, and I had never tasted anything so ethereally delicious as that lemon bar. And it tasted that good because my knees were just screaming. I was in so much pain, and the combination of sitting there in pain and being offered this ambrosia thing so it's so if we're out of the schedule a lot we won't feel the sesheen if we're not following the forms we won't feel the what it's what it's there for how it will help us you know so for for you to take a period or whatever in dialogue with somebody to talk about what's going on, is part of your sesheen.

[54:57]

And I don't feel it's... I'm not much one for failure, you know? You know, like... Like the word fault, you know, like the San Andreas fault. It's just a place where there's movement, you know, where things move back and forth. It's not its fault. I mean, it's... It's a fault. And there's a lot of growth there and a lot of things you can learn where that movement is. So that's how I think of it. It's a chance to, what's going on here? Can somebody talk with me about what's going on here? Rather than that you've lost your vows or something or sincerity. We could call it the San Andreas failure. Is there a hand here?

[56:02]

Yes, Rachel. First, I want to thank you for all your help, giving us everything we need. I also have a question. I was wondering if suchness is beyond doubt. I think doubt is suchness. Doubting is within suchness. It's the suchness of doubting. Thank you all very much. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our programs are made possible by the donations we receive. Please help us to continue to realize and actualize the practice of giving by offering your financial support.

[57:12]

For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving. May we fully enjoy the Dharma.

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