This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfcc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good afternoon. So today we're going to talk about right speech and right listening and communicating across differences, at least to begin with that. So I thought I'd start with the place and role of right speech within Buddhism and in Dogen Zen and then bring it into our world in both Tassajara and the wider world that we share. So in Pali, Right speech is sama vaka. Sama is the sense of being perfected or completed, and vaka refers to words or speech.

[01:00]

I'll just mention that, of course, in the Buddha's time, right speech was literally speech, literally spoken word. So, that was what the Buddha's teachings were about. But, of course, now we have written word, which did not exist in the Buddha's time, and we have online and media and many other ways of communicating through words. But in the Buddhist time, it was all face-to-face communication. And right speech is more than just correct speech. It's really a wholehearted expression of practice. And there are three traditional divisions. Well, it's part of the Eightfold Path. So there's the Four Noble Truths in the Eightfold Path. And the three traditional divisions of that are wisdom, we have prajna, samadhi, and shila. And shila is the moral action. So wisdom, concentration or meditation, and action.

[02:07]

So that falls under that section along with right livelihood and why am I blocking that? Conduct. Yes. I was thinking Sheila. Yes. So in Japanese, the word for precept is actually two words. It's kai and ritsu. And kai means Sheila. It means moral conduct. And ritsu is vinya, which is the moral code, like the shingi, like our guidelines. So I think it's really interesting that in Japanese... Precepts includes both. It includes both what we think about as our ethics, our values, kind of like the Ten Commandments versus all the laws. You know, it's our aspiration, it's our vow, and then how do we put that into very concrete practice so it has both sides.

[03:10]

But we're going to be talking just about the vow side of things. And I think sometimes people, in the West particularly, I won't speak for any of you, but in the West, the precepts have often been kind of an afterthought. It's been on the side of the wisdom side, emptiness side, meditation side, and not so much on the precepts side. But that was not true historically, certainly not true for Dogen, even though he kept talking about Zazen. And he has a fascicle called which means do not do anything evil. So that's the first pure precept. Do no evil, do no harm. And he says in this fascicle, an ancient Buddha said, do not do anything evil, do good and purify the mind. This is the teaching of all the Buddhas.

[04:12]

Do not do anything evil. Do good and purify the mind. This is the teaching of all the Buddhas. So this is like the most basic Buddhist verse on the precepts. It's the shortest, the most basic versions of this go back to the Dhammapada, which is generally considered to be the earliest part of the Buddhist teachings, the earliest writings. And when it says an ancient Buddha, in this case it refers to the seven Buddhas even before Buddha. It's the golden rule. You know, it's the same thing worldwide. This is the basis of our ethical code, just in a general sense. And this is Dogen's, the Buddha's and Dogen's expression of it. And it's the, when we do the full moon ceremony, you know, that's the first one of the three cure precepts. And he said, Dogen said, As you start seeking the way by practicing zazen, you should first try to observe the precepts.

[05:14]

How can you be a Buddha without renouncing your past errors and swearing off all evil? So, I want to highlight this because sometimes things like... Right speech or things like this can seem like a kind of a modern add-on or just how we live together or just interesting, but it's actually a very fundamental part of Buddhist practice. Going back to Shakyamuni. Let's see. Oh, yes. So he goes on to say in this fascicle, Rakuten Po Chui, in Chinese, was a famous statesman and poet of Tang Dynasty China. One day he asked Master Dou Rin, Tao Lin, what is the great meaning of Buddhism? Or you could say, what is the major intention of the Buddha Dharma? And Dou Rin replied, refrain from all evil, uphold and practice all that is good.

[06:16]

Rakuten said, if that's all there is to it, even a child of three knows how to say that. And Dorin said, though a three-year-old child can say it, there are old men in their 80s who still cannot put it into practice. Upon hearing the matter put this way, Rakuten then bowed in gratitude. So that's why I think it's so important to talk about right speech, because we mostly all know what we should be doing, or we have some idea of what right speech is. And then, I don't know about you, for me it's an ongoing thing, it's the most challenging one. Every day. So what do I say? What do I not say? How do I say it? When do I say it? Who do I say it to? What's skillful? What's not skillful? Skillful under what conditions? So it's very alive, if you let it be. So some of the ways that right speech has been discussed in the Pali Canon, the Buddha said, and what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech,

[07:20]

from abusive speech, and from idle chatter. This is called right speech. So lying, divisive speech, abusive speech, and idle chatter. So divisive speech is like slandering others or speaking in a way that causes disharmony or enmity within the Sangha. Various forms of gossip, you know, the kind of speech that causes harm in the community. and abusive language would be like being rude or impolite, and then don't indulge in idle talk or gossip. Let's see. Then he says, monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless and unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five? It is spoken at the right time, it is spoken in truth, it is spoken affectionately, it is spoken beneficially, it is helpful, and it reduces suffering, and it is spoken with a mind of goodwill.

[08:32]

So he has the negative side and the positive side. And I think this is really important, and I haven't heard this said so much, but it is in the sutras. Speak only the speech that neither torments self nor does harm to others. That speech is truly well-spoken. Speak only endearing speech, speech that is welcomed. Speech when it brings no evil to others is pleasant. But that line about that neither torments self nor does harm to others because there's also the speech that goes on inside of our heads. And we may be very conscious about what we say to other people and be pretty abusive to ourselves or at least unkind. So that's also part of right speech. and how to work with that. And then he discusses kinds of speech to be avoided by contemplatives, which we are here.

[09:40]

So, whereas some Brahmans and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, are addicted to talking about lowly topics such as these, talking about kings, robbers, ministers of states, celebrities, armies, alarms and battles, food and drink, clothing, furniture, garlands and scents, relatives, vehicles, villages, towns, cities, the countryside, women and heroes, of course this was male monks, the gossip of the street and the well, tales of the dead, tales of... It says, tales of diversity, but it's like philosophical discussions of the past and future, the creation of the world and of the sea, and talk of whether things exist or not. He abstains from talking about lowly topics such as these. And let's see, what are, oh, and this is my favorite. Whereas some Brahmins and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, are addicted to debates such as these.

[10:45]

Because sometimes they would debate the Dharma. And this is a series of different things. This isn't one whole thing. You understand this Dharma and discipline? I'm the one who understands this Dharma and discipline. How could you understand this Dharma and discipline? You're practicing wrongly. I'm practicing rightly. I'm being consistent. You're being inconsistent. What should be said first, you said last. What you said last should be said first. What you took so long to think out has been refuted. Your doctrine has been overthrown. You're defeated. Go and try to salvage your doctrine. Extricate yourself if you can. He abstains from debates such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue. I don't know. I like imagining the monks of the time. It's like, of course, we're like, yeah, don't talk like that. Yeah, don't engage in wordy warfare. And then he talks about how to admonish another skillfully, or how to give feedback.

[11:48]

He said, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu is a monk, a bhikkhu who decides to admonish another should do so after investigating five conditions in himself and after establishing five other conditions in himself. Investigating. Not establishing, but just investigating. Oh, I see I got two cut off. Oh, well, we're only going to investigate three. And establishing five other conditions in himself. What are the conditions? Am I one who practices purity in bodily action, flawless and untainted? Am I one who practices purity in speech, flawless and untainted? Is the heart of goodwill free from malice established in me toward fellow fairers in the holy life? And what five conditions must be established? Do I speak at the right time? Do I speak of facts? Do I speak gently or harshly? Do I speak profitable words? Do I speak with a kindly heart? When we get to things about feedback or difficult conversations, then it's not just what's pleasing to the other person, but what's truly skillful.

[13:01]

Is it actually helpful to... slide over something and not say something because it may be hard for you or for them, but it's actually not helpful, it's actually not skillful. So, these are deep things to turn and to consider. So, these were some of the Buddha's thoughts about what constitutes right speech. But what is it for you? What are the things that are most alive for you when you think about what you would want to hold up as right speech, whether or not they are included on this list or not. I thought I'd write them down. Yes? Well, I think about my yoga training and the foot gates of speech that they teach in yoga, which is, is it truthful? Does it need to be said?

[14:05]

Is this the right time to say it? Can it be said in a kind way? Very similar. Yeah, very similar. So that's what goes through my head all the time. Anyone else? Catherine. When does silence become the sign of truth? So today that he talks about when you're not able, when you don't want to participate in something, you should become a block of wood. What does that mean to be a block of wood? But myself, Being a block of wood has meant science. There are all kinds of ways that it appears a little to participate in principles and not have any space to absorb and respond to the air.

[15:30]

I think it's something I've been Definitely. When to choose speech and when to choose silence? What is my silence and is defiance? There's a piece of that. If it is defiance, I don't even know, but it comes out as a description. Anyone else? Milo? I think for me, harmony is important. but it's not so much about keeping harmony or saying things that are pleasing, even though that's helpful sometimes, but more about connecting it with this particular person at this particular time. What is deeply supportive to them? Even if it's often just about creating space, what can I say that doesn't get in the way or hinder something very beautiful or something very precious?

[16:43]

So harmony as a way of maybe opening space for what's happening rather than having an idea about what it might look like? I think that's one way of saying but I think it's more about just bringing in this idea of the motivation for what's said, being about how can I create space for you or for us to feel into what's most important. Like, bring about a sense of discovery rather than closing something down or, yeah like you say, imposing. Anything else? Tim? I often think of speech as being potentially a gift that you're offering up and that sometimes gifts can be invented and creative and constructed and ridiculous and funny and false and all of these.

[18:00]

sorts of things that may not fit with the usual, you know, Buddhist considerations and categories. But at the same time, just like, you know, some of the gifts you receive that you cherish the most are the ones that were completely fabricated, made by the person giving it to you. So I often wonder how that fits in. So could you give an example of a fabricated gift of speech? 90% of the things I say. Sorry. An example. Or a made-up example. You mean like being silly? Exactly. Ridiculous, absurd, performing, reacting. Uh-huh. in a spirit of gift-giving.

[19:02]

Yeah. That's partly why I wanted to bring this up here, is because the traditional teachings are a little... could be seen as straight-laced. I mean, I've certainly felt that engaging in what could otherwise look as idle chatter is actually bodhisattva activity of drawing someone out who's new or something. So I think it's more complex than... then just these are the appropriate topics, etc. Limit yourself to those. Joe? Is it authentic? Whether it's correct or not, or right or not. For me as a figure, that's what's in front of me. Is it authentic? Words at all. Authentic meaning like Whenever someone, without being judgmental, whether a talk or a speech, or my talk or speech, might have a check on the box, it's just right.

[20:04]

Is it authentic? Okay. Great. I also wanted to talk about listening, which isn't so much discussed by the Buddha, but Thich Nhat Hanh talks about it. In the Heart of the Buddha's Teachings, he says, deep listening is the foundation of right speech. If we cannot listen mindfully, we cannot practice right speech. No matter what we say, it will not be mindful because we'll be speaking only our own ideas and not in response to the other person. So, we could talk about right speech, but it's really right communication. You know, you can say something... apparently perfectly, but if it's not being communicated, it's not being heard, then it's kind of, you know, it misses being communication. So there aren't any lists in the sutras about how to listen.

[21:09]

But I think we all know both how we want to be listened to and how we practice listening. So I thought we could generate a little list of how we would like to listen to people or be listened to. what might our practice of listening be? Michael? I heard this, this man gave you this card of good things, and it was listen to hear and understand, not to respond. Listen to hear and understand, not to respond. So maybe don't be rehearsing what you're going to say back while you're listening. Like, okay, I don't really care what you're saying. I want to say something. Great. Listen with patience. Like, don't just interrupt and wait for the right time.

[22:13]

Great. When I heard that it's a slightly different way but the same concept, listening is not a conversation. Can you say more about that? Don't try to pull that shut. You have to turn the little thingy up on the top to make it go. So this person... They say that listening, you basically have to put yourself aside. And when you listen, your objective is to take in what the other person is trying to communicate. You ignore the words, actually, and you pay attention to everything else.

[23:16]

Interesting. Anyone else? Sophie? It kind of goes along the lines of a lot of what people said, but listening with effort. And what I mean by that is I think it's, I've practiced both like listening as just a vehicle to hear and kind of like turn off anything that I'm thinking. But I think there's a balance in listening because if you are really going to digest what someone else is saying, you need to also be balancing how you are interpreting like awareness as you're listening. Mm-hmm. I learned to listen not so much of words person speaks, but what makes this person to talk. Like asking what's their intention? Not so much asking them, but tuning into what behind the words.

[24:23]

Mmm. Stuff. Listening with curiosity. Mmm. Great. Kodo. For a couple of things from the speech list, authenticity. You're saying without me listening? Mm-hmm. And also there's the bit about awareness. Having a certain awareness as you're listening, I find that tuning into my body is really helpful. Both to stay grounded and to connect with how the conversation's actually impacting. And giving feedback around that can facilitate more conversation. And the third thing was...

[25:24]

listening like my hair's on fire. My whole, my whole, uh, attention. Or like I'm sitting zombie. Great. Steph, Mahin, and Laura. I just wanted to note, um, Koto was saying, paying attention to the body reminded me of doing retreats in the past and taking classes on right speech and really focusing on body awareness during conversation or that being a teaching that was much more predominant at the time and really finding how difficult it was to do that in conversation because I would be so consumed by the content are wrapped up in the content of the conversation.

[26:26]

So I just wanted to point out that a really great time to practice active listening in these principles is during a lecture or a class because that response mechanism isn't as activated. We don't have, like, you're not expected to answer immediately. So just wanted to throw that out there because we're doing that right now. Yeah, and there you go. Mahir. What were you saying? Validation rather than trying to change the person, so meaning allowing the person to be whatever you're in rather than trying to change it. For example, upset whatever That could be grief, that could be anger, could be whatever. When strong emotions are present, the tendency is to want to make it go away, which invalidates the person's feelings and isn't really listening.

[27:33]

Listening is actually allowing them the space to feel what they're feeling without trying to change that or make it go away or be nice. We say things that we think are comforting What could be worse for this or that or well you know this and or what not. But actually we just need to give the space to what someone gives that sometimes. Or to greed, or to whatever. Yeah. Great. Please. I think also listening to, listening to yourself. Listening to, when you're listening to someone else, listening to what is coming up in your own mind. and making the distinction between what that person is saying and what is arising in yourself, so that you're not confusing your own thoughts with the words of love. Personal to what Steph was saying, Stephie, we already mentioned not just having a kind of conversation where you're just waiting for your turn to talk so you can jump in and say what you think, which we're all familiar with.

[29:18]

but actually waiting for an invitation. Waiting until you feel invited to respond. And along with that, not refraining from giving advice if it hasn't been asked for. Wait, do you say not refraining from giving advice? No, I said refraining from giving advice. Thank you. Terrified. The unasked for gift. Someone have a hand up over here? Michael and then Jim. Oh, I was saying listen like as a beginner because sometimes when you're listening to somebody like teaching you or telling you how to do something, sometimes I find myself and like, oh, I know this. I know. I don't need you to tell me this. And then I freak. I don't hear what they're saying. Great.

[30:23]

Jim. And I think that not giving advice can, for me, it can be sublime, Ross, but injecting my similar experience, you know, talking, it's my experience, rather than listening to their experience. And that might be a secret way of giving advice. Yeah. Yeah. else. What a wonderful list. I'm curious now, having come up with this, if there's anything you'd want to add going back to the right speech, to the speaking part. Heather? Sometimes listening is communicated through speech as well.

[31:24]

I mean, for example, mirroring back to someone. What? What? each as a vehicle to express the same way. So letting the person know that they're being heard? Mm-hmm. I really hear what you're saying. It's James. and the piece says about self aggrandizement so how much I mean of course we think immediately I'm bragging about myself but they're all sort of more subtle ways of self aggrandizement and so in my speech am I even in my listening is this all referring back to myself or am I really

[32:29]

listening, speaking to the other person. Not just kind of talking out loud to oneself. Yeah, putting one's own agenda. He lost. That's it. Um, yeah, I guess I just want to point out, like, the other side of all this, too, is, uh, you know, sometimes it's important to, um, just, like, be talking with someone and not trying to make it into something. Sometimes I'm, like, talking to someone and trying to look at me, like, as if to say, can you stop practicing for some days?

[33:34]

So, yeah. That's the point for mine, too. You mean, like, not be too self-consciously striving to be perfect? That kind of make it into something. Yeah, I guess so. Or, like, just getting, like, so into the whole, like, conscious conversation thing that it, like, kills any real interaction, spontaneous interaction that we have. So... actually that's very interesting what you say about the spontaneous conversation because there is a distinction made between people who can be very eloquent in certain states of mind like a poet kind of being transported but someone who has more realization or is more awakened can speak from that place at any time so there's actually a very great importance or weight given historically in Buddhism to people who have the capacity to speak spontaneously and truly and authentically like you just ask them any question and they can respond without having to go look something up or think it through or organize it it's interesting Milo I think I have a different opinion than you about the idol chatter being bodhisattva activity here

[35:02]

As it could be. I think a lot actually about how to really be a place that's supportive of realizing these teachings. I think a lot of the talking that goes on here is it really gets in the way of actually doing the inner work that would result in that. And that's something I hold, actually, as I go around the day, you know, without being too weird, how can I support this or not, feed it into the day. Yes. Great, thank you. I think, if I can mention when I was saying that, I was thinking people who don't yet have so much of an inward practice and aren't yet practicing silence in that way, and they might feel that it was unwelcome to not be spoken to.

[36:03]

So how to meet the situation as best we can. What Benson was saying reminded me of being in school for counseling psychology and learning all these new skills of active listening and reflecting and pointing... noting emotions and, um, and it's super awkward at first, you know, because you're trying, you know, and you're practicing with each other and you're trying to hit all these skills and, um, and it just is awkward. And then at some point you're not thinking about the skills anymore. You're just doing them, but it kind of takes that period of awkwardness and, um, to be able to get to the point of just, of sort of using them naturally and, um, having it feel authentic and you don't feel like you're trying to do anything or trying to use any skills. So maybe we could have some set practice sessions.

[37:05]

So learning new verbal skills may be awkward and stilted at first. Anyone else? Tim and then Catherine. I find it, you know, paying attention to what, the best word I can come up with is what arena I'm in. So, for example, if I'm on the bocce court, that's a distinctly different arena than if I'm in practice discussion. And to assume that there's one set of rules for one set of guidelines that applies to all circumstances and all situations, it's sort of like it's helpful to pay attention to what arena I find myself in. Catherine. How close but different is what space are you in and who are the people in it? And I think we live in a place where there's not much space.

[38:18]

You have to make an effort to have a discrete conversation. With that as an example, it's important what people overhear. And a form of speech that makes me uncomfortable can be a kind of theatrical discussion going on that's actually intended to be overheard, but could be uncomfortable for me. also to attend to who is present and who is hearing that conversation. In relation to both, what they both say, especially paying attention to what are really the other person and other people, where they're trying to follow.

[39:20]

James. This is more a question about what Margot was saying. There are movies you go and see that when you get out of the theater you don't remember what it was. Or food that you eat that after you've finished you have no idea the meal that you eat. And I wonder if there is a sort of a form of junk speech that's... It's over before it gets started almost. You've already forgotten. And if in some way that sort of takes up a lot of space in our life, a lot of junk, a lot of litter, you know, like a messy room, it's not just things thrown out on them. And how do you, how does one organize oneself or protect oneself in this? This junk environment, junk speech environment.

[40:29]

I think the fact that monastics are, like, pretty much all monastics, I think, have silence as a core part of their practice, and I think that's part of it. Even if nothing else happened, if you were on a silent retreat, just being silent. So even if you're still talking in your head, the fact that there's no additional input coming up from outside is huge. Maybe one more. Heather. Being in a place where I didn't speak the language, I was just trying to think, well, in what other ways can I speak or listen? But anyone just through actions, which gets into another equal path, but right, or just actions speak louder than words. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. in Russian. Actually, Tim and Matt, because you haven't said anything yet, Tim.

[41:31]

Well, I think it would be helpful to see these as descriptions rather than prescriptions of how what Matt's been in this is the, I guess, the emptiness of itself or how the wicked one I think they're often seen as both. In terms of prescriptions, they're seen as a practice to kind of come up against, well, then what happens if I'm not doing it? It's like if I think I'm going to be doing this or should be doing this, and then I'm not, what happens? Equally, what happens if I'm like, well, I'm being a good girl. I'm all that.

[42:33]

I'm being right speech. That's equally something to look at. I wanted to share something with you. This is from a group called Visions who does... mostly organizational development trainings around multiculturalism and diversity. And these are agreements for multicultural interactions. So I want to hand this out. Everyone can... Oh boy, I don't know if I have enough or not. I think so. And I thought we'd just... One of the things that was very interesting to me about this, I've been studying the book Difficult Conversations for about a year now, and I've been amazed at how many of these... are almost identical to what's in the book, Difficult Conversations. So that really interests me a lot and made me think that maybe a lot of difficult conversations have to do with situations where there's a difference, a difference that is challenging in some way or another.

[43:42]

It might be a difference in expectation or a difference in how you're feeling right now or, yeah, a lot of things. But I think that's often what makes a conversation difficult is actually a difference. not even necessarily a conflict. Did everyone get one or are there extras? Could a few people share? And if anyone else wants them, I will print more. Maybe we could just read these out loud. Caitlin, you want to start and we'll just go across? Agreements for multicultural interactions. Try it on. Be willing to try on new ideas or ways of doing things that might not be what you prefer or are familiar with. Practice self-focus. Attend to and speak about your own experiences and responses. Do not speak for a whole group or express assumptions about the experience of others.

[44:46]

Understand the difference between intent and impact. Try to understand and acknowledge impact. Denying the impact of something said by focusing on the intent is often more destructive than the initial interaction. Practice both in. When speaking, substitute and or but. This practice acknowledges and honors multiple realities. Refrain from blaming or shaming self and others. Practice giving skillful feedback. Move up, move back. Encourage full participation by all present. Take room of who is speaking and who is not. If you tend to speak often, consider moving back, and vice versa. Practice mindful listening. Try to avoid planning what you say as you listen to others. Be willing to be surprised to learn something new.

[45:49]

It doesn't mature over itself. Confidentiality. They own learnings, but don't identify anyone other than yourself now or later. If you want to follow up with anyone regarding something they said in this session, ask first and respect their wishes. Write to class. You can say I class if you don't wish to speak. Anyone have any responses to that? Any resonance? Thoughts? Disagreement? Michael? I have a question about the practice of man. Yeah. So if you said one thing and I say but, that implies that one or the other is true. But if I say and, then it's like, so you got here five minutes after you were expected and whatever it is. It includes both realities as experiences.

[46:50]

James? Yeah, the same thing with impact. And knowing the impact of something said by focusing on intent is often... I don't quite understand opposition. Nothing more destructive than the initial interaction. So if I said or did something that hurt you in some way or offended you or you felt disrespected and you let me know about that, And I said, I didn't mean that. That wasn't my intention. Or I was just blah, blah, blah. Or you're being way too sensitive about that. Now we have two things going on. We have the initial thing that happened, and now you're denying my reality and my experience and kind of me as a person, if it goes very far. And particularly in things addressing multiculturalism, traditionally targeted groups have often been the recipient of that.

[47:57]

So there's an added sensitivity. So to actually be able to... But this showed up in difficult conversations as well. And they talk about it as if... Let's see. If I... So in this case, if you're offended, then you're... I didn't intend that. You're clearly overreacting. But if I'm hurt by your actions, you meant to hurt me. I know that because of how I feel. And so that mirror image goes both ways. And yet, pretty much, we don't intend to hurt other people. So we know our own impact and we know our own intention, but we don't know the impact or the intention for other people. So to really be open to listening to it.

[49:01]

And it's also a huge practice for those of us who don't want to cause harm to other people to really hear that something we've done has been hurtful to another person. And that can be very hard to receive, actually, and to really listen to. Steph? Just another way that that intention impact thing can manifest. In addition to being defensive of oneself, if you say something that is taken, there's offense taken to it, and defending one's intention, on the flip side, I often find myself in scenarios where maybe I feel offended in a certain situation, And I know that the person didn't mean to. And so I negate how I feel. I don't give myself permission to feel how I really feel or to talk to them about it. I'll use that as a way to dismiss my feelings, to say, oh, they didn't really mean to. They didn't intend to hurt my feelings.

[50:03]

And to understand that it's OK for there to be an impact for me to feel a certain way, even if that wasn't the intention. Yeah. All right. Anyone else? Some of this brings up for me is I think it's all very skillful, but there's this. I think I've actually gotten taken advantage of sometimes in or gotten into more difficult interactions when I've tried on the other person's reality so much, maybe in a context of trying to work something out, have more harmony. And it's been, I guess, a situation of... I'm just thinking of the frame of mind you're in when you are demanding some kind of apology or some kind of recognition that just can't be...

[51:14]

At least I have, in some extreme situations, I haven't been able to give that person what they want. Yeah. Just to put out there that that just brings up. It's an exploration to me what's going on in situations. Yeah. Great. Jim. Well, to me there's a certain way we are in the world where we just don't have the ability to transcend or to understand ourselves or the other person and even people we've known for a lifetime. And so the best, you know, we end up feeling hurt because they don't understand And they'll probably never understand.

[52:17]

You know, and so this is, to me, this is where we learn tolerance for other people. And it's like we've gone around for 50 years about this, you know, maybe with our parents or, you know, and so we can accept them the way they are. even though they can't understand us. And, you know, that's just the way it is at this point in the human condition. At least that's how it's been for me. I think on the same lines, Jen is saying this thing about being authentic. You can be with people where... There's no openness to sort of being authentic with them. Like what you have to say is not like... I don't know, there's no space for it.

[53:25]

So my question is how do you be in this situation? What does it mean to be authentic when you compensate? Yeah. How can you authentically be in a situation where what you're feeling or what you're experiencing isn't welcomed? Yeah. But I think it's somehow at least a little easier to identify that that's the place that you're in. You know, it's like, how do I bring the most of myself that I can even when it's not welcomed? You know, can I at least be that, can I at least have my own experience? And then what if my own experience is skillful to share for myself, for others, for the whole situation? You know, I don't think there's any answer to it, but... to be able to hold all the pain of that feeling, I think, is a start. Sophie?

[54:26]

I think just a comment with that is that when I'm in situations like that, I often think about how I'm really wanting something from the other person. And I think, like, being able to acknowledge that and maybe be on the road to letting that go. Yeah, to just fully acknowledge the situation as it is. Yeah. James? This thought going through my mind is it sounds a bit like the only speech where there isn't the possibility of being harmed or harming someone else is basically silence. Silence can be very harmful. Catherine brought that up. Well, that kind of stuff is sort of the baseline. And then, okay, anything I add to that, it's taking a risk of being wrongly interpreted or bad intentions or et cetera, et cetera.

[55:35]

So you just have to measure step by step or word by word. Is this necessary? Is this true? Is this harmful? Is the things that Steph was talking about? But in fact, we've come back to sidelines. This is where it begins. And I think, you know, when, like Caitlin was saying, you know, when we start consciously practicing with speech. I forgot to mention one of my favorite things to say about speech was that of the ten grave precepts, four have to do with speech. So not lying, not slandering others, not praising self at the expense of others, and not abusing the three treasures, which I find 40% has to do with speech. So that really says a lot about our lives together, how powerful that is.

[56:40]

And I think we're much more aware now of what goes on in here than has ever been talked about before. But when you start being conscious about it, it can feel really awkward. But then I think a lot of it has to do with a felt sense or a feeling that's not so conscious, like going through the checklist. Because sometimes when I'm feeling like, oh, I don't really want to say this or whatever, I can feel the whole thing in my body. You know, especially if it's self-protective, you know. I'd really like to excuse what just happened there, or whatever, you know, I can feel it. And when I can move back into center, which could be silence, then there's a different way of moving out from there. Anything else? Lovely. So we're just almost at 4.30.

[57:42]

I was thinking about offering another class in a few weeks, and I wondered what people would be most interested in. Would there be more practices of speech or listening or difficult conversations or discussion? Or if you don't have ideas, I'll come up with something, don't worry. But I wondered if there was any particular request or interest, and I would take that into account if there was. Joe? Something about learning about how not to have our feelings hurt. Were you born? Well, we talk a lot about not hurting somebody else. Yeah. But there are a lot of people who are... just itching to get hurt you know and what i'm thinking is just something from the other side how to practice receiving difficult things maybe yeah okay i'll take offense even if it's offered yeah yeah yeah that's our teacher's line anything else okay i'll come up with something

[59:01]

Oh, Michael. I thought maybe the difficult conversations would be interesting to learn about, or however... I've been in some difficult conversations, and I don't really know how to have them, so I just don't have any conversations. Great. Okay. James? Also, the list of listening seems, again, much more spontaneous and long. The speech... Maybe... We're thinking about active listening, not just passive listening. Maybe those are techniques, you're going to say, he's an active listener. There's one that hit oneself in that mode and you become an active listener. Yeah. I still remember the day when I was practicing active listening and something kind of, because I was trying to do it right, which totally gets in the way of actually listening. It's impossible. and something kind of clicked, and it was like zazen.

[60:05]

You know, I was just open and present, and like, oh, this kind of interpersonal zazen. You know, so there was a different felt sense to it. Yeah. Was there one more hand? Well, I was thinking, sometimes when I'm talking one-on-one with the person, like I notice, like, I don't know which eye to look at, or like... And I just, sometimes I feel like I get in my own head when I'm talking to other people. And like, I don't know what to say, and then I think about what to say, and I'm like, that sounds weird. So, I don't know, I was like, how do you, how do you get the flow of talking sometimes? Great. Okay. Thank you. Oh. Well, I think there would be any Christian topic or way for me to talk more about I don't chat. Because I often have a problem with the sort of concept of idle chatter being bad because it can be bad.

[61:07]

But oftentimes I'm going to see it. Sometimes idle chatter can be useful. Even if without you, I'd say, to create sort of working warm and violent and things like that, which kind of ties into the silence being able to help you. That might be interesting. I just want to second that. That was the topic that I was going to suggest also at idle chatter and how speech can be such a form of great connection. And so... Yeah, when is it idle chatter and when is it connected or inviting or playing a different role, even if it's about something that on the surface level might seem superfluous. And then also how intention plays into whether it is idle chatter or not. Yeah, great.

[62:10]

Yes? Yeah, I kind of have a question, maybe a comment as well, but yeah, about idle chatter. like small talk and silence. And we talked about, you know, if it's silent, sometimes silence can be somewhat bad. And then maybe like small talk, is that part of our chatter? Or is that, you know, which of those three is worse or better? And I guess it obviously, every conversation takes on a different dynamic that is so complex that it just, I guess it just takes so much practice. But I, I, Just curious how small talk is part of the island chat. Sometimes it can develop a comfort level between people and then it can grow something more. Great. Well, it's just a little past 4.30, so let's pause. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive.

[63:13]

Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[63:23]

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