I had this funny thought while I was sitting just now. I think there's a movie from long ago. I don't know why this title may not even be the right title. But if it's Tuesday, it must be Belgium or something like that. So today's Sunday. So it's 5 o'clock. It must be 5 o'clock and time to talk about the Genja Kwan. Right now, this month, July, I have managed to get myself into all kinds of commitments which are quite different. know each day has its own kind of special thing so i'm really i feel like i'm juggling these these rather large commitments which all of which i enjoy and at the same time i feel a little bit like oh i think i'm gonna drop one of these any minute anyway um welcome welcome very very glad to be here with all of you and i also was feeling a lot of gratitude to you for coming week after week i I am just so grateful that you do.

[01:15]

And it gives me this wonderful chance to think about these beautiful teachings with your support. And hopefully it's mutual. The support is for you as well. So, Genjo Kwan. Amazing. I kept thinking, well, we'll just read through it. But I don't think that's exactly what it's for or how it works. And it's certainly not how I'm experiencing each of the paragraphs, each of the teachings. It's a whole vast universe of teachings. Each paragraph that Dogen writes has so much in it to unpack, as they say. So I'm going slow. in the sense of just taking each one of these as a piece and then looking through various commentaries for some help in deepening my own understanding of what Dogen's doing here, how he's helping us to understand basically his awakening.

[02:16]

So right now I'm looking at this paragraph that I mentioned to you I was having some trouble understanding. When you see forms or hear sounds, Fully engaging body and mind, you grasp things directly. Unlike things in the reflections in the mirror and unlike the moon and its reflection in the water, when one side is illuminated, the other side is dark. So the problem I was having was sort of trying to imagine the moon in the water or an image in the mirror and thinking, well, one side is illuminated, the other side is dark. So why does he say it's unlike that? You know, I was kind of confused about the metaphor. And so fortunately, I want to give a shout out to Amir, who's been joining us and who I've met here at Green Gulch as well. He did a one-day sitting recently. We had a chance to speak together. And he was kind enough to send me a link, which I put in the chat for you.

[03:19]

I hope that works. You can let me know if you can get it. different translations of the Genjo Koan. For you who, like me, like to kind of nerd out on these things, it's a way to kind of understand, like, well, different translators... These are all into English. Different translators use different phrases or different order of the words and so on, and it really does help to glance through these, especially the places where there's some disagreement about the translation. So... And I did look at that, and it was really helpful in kind of clarifying what these various scholars, how they turned medieval Japanese into the best kind of English that they could. So the Zen site, which you may know, kind of got a lot of good stuff. It's all one word, thezensite.com. And if you look there, you will find eight English translations of the Genjo Koan. So as a result, I think I do have a better sense of

[04:20]

of what Dogen intended with this paragraph. And also I found it very helpful. I found another set of commentaries by a very well-regarded contemporary Japanese teacher by the name of Hakon Yasutani, whose teachings on the Genjo Koan were published way back in 1967 in a book called Flowers Fall. So Yasutani has an interesting history. He's a lot of our... American Zen Rinzai Zen or combination Rinzai Soto Zen teachers like Maizumi Roshi in Los Angeles and many of his Dharma heirs are basically in the lineage of Yasutani Roshi. So he has had a big impact in the United States, more so than in Japan, I understand, where he was just one of many. But here, because of Maizumi Roshi and the number of people that directly received Dharma transmission from him, there are many different groups in America that are in the lineage of Yasutani Roshi.

[05:21]

So in his book, which I found quite accessible and... Good humor as well. I like that when a teacher shows some humor. He explains that when we become aware of the universe as just a single seamless stupa, a single seamless stupa, then it's not like some simplistic kind of thing such as a reflection in a mirror. It's not simplistic like a reflection in a mirror. And then he says mountains and rivers are not seen in a mirror. such as in the mirroring of the mind's eye. But rather, what Dogen is speaking about here is the actual experience of awakening, in which the self isn't like a mirror, simply reflecting what it sees. The self is what it sees. So we're not reflecting what we see. That would be like self and a reflection, self and an other, an object. The self is what it sees, is the mountains, rivers, and earth.

[06:23]

the sea, the sun, and the moon, and the stars. So unlike the moon and its reflection in the water, unlike a mirror image and its reflection in a mirror, we are what is reflected. We are that. That's an understanding. That's an experience that one has that is often referred to as awakening. So Yasutani then says, at such a time, there is not another person in the whole universe. One side is all there is, without a second or third to be found anywhere. If one calls this the subject, then everything is the subject, and that's all. There is no object anywhere. This is called snatching away the objective world, but not the person. So see if you can follow this. It's a little tricky, but not so tricky. So in one case... Everything is the subject. It's all the subject. It's just self as the universe and the experience of that.

[07:27]

What's that like? That's what Shakyamuni Buddha declared when he was awakened in chapter one of the Transmission of Life. I and all things in the universe are awakened at the same time. That's self. The self of the universe is declaring I and all things are awakened at the same time. This was his lion's roar. So if one calls this the subject, then everything is the subject, and that's all. There is no object anywhere. There's no second person. There's no thing outside of that self. This is called snatching away the objective world, but not the person. See, that's the first case. Now, in this other case, if one calls this object, then everything is the object, and that's all. This is called snatching away the person, But not the object. Not the objective world. So everything is a bright moon. Everything is the bell. Everything is the sound of the bird. So this object only. So we have subject only.

[08:28]

And now we have object only. So the labels keep changing. And the names keep changing. But reality is still the same. On this side is the true mind only. And on the other side is true matter only. Stuff. True matter only. So mind only. Stuff only. The two sides of the one coin that we call the universe. So they're just doing this play again that we hear over and over again between the differences and the oneness. Oneness and difference. Merging of difference and equality and so on. Over and over again. Each of the great poets of Zen have played with these two aspects. The relative and the ultimate. We've done that a lot too. This re-engi. Re-engi. So Dogen calls this completely self. He also calls it completely other. Either way, it's all self. It's all other. This, he says, is the meaning of when one side is realized, the other side is dark.

[09:33]

All self, all other. One light, all light. One dark, all dark. It's also called one side exhausts Everything. So the one side is all there is. You turn it over, the other side is all there is. All inclusive. So object only, subject only, same thing. The moon and the pointing fingers together are making the whole universe. So subject and object together are making the whole universe. So there's another helpful comment about this... paragraph in the Genjo Koan in Flower's Fall. So this is Yasutani's book, which was made by a monk by the name of Kyogo, who was only 50 years after Dogen's death. So this is really close to this time of Dogen's life. intimate with Dogen's students, his dharma heirs, and very intimate with Dogen's writing.

[10:37]

Because much of Dogen's writing disappeared for centuries. It was kind of hidden away in the musty libraries of the monasteries. It wasn't available to the public. Maybe some scholar monks knew about them. But it wasn't like now. People know about Dogen. He's world famous. Philosophers world around study Dogen. We know about Dogen. But that wasn't so for many, many centuries. So this monk, Kyogo, says that even though each fascicle of the Shokpo Genzo discusses different aspects, there is only one underlying principle, non-duality or wholeness. That is, no subject-object and no this and that. No separation, no subject-object, no this and that. One wholeness. So only the principle of undividedness or wholeness is emphasized. Dogen is really basically about ultimate truth. You know, his fingers of relative teachings are always pointing at the ultimate truth.

[11:43]

He's skipping over kind of like, you know, kind of worldly affairs, sort of like, but I have a headache. Ah, yeah, yeah, not interesting, you know. He's really looking at this big lens, this big wide lens, the big mind, as Suzuki Roshi called it. So throughout the Shobo Genzo, Shobo Genzo is the whole collection of Dogen's teaching, the Shobo Genzo, the treasury of the true Dharma eye. So throughout that Shobo Genzo, from the Genjo koan, the fascicle we're looking at now, up through Shuke, leaving home, which is the last fascicle in the Shobo Genzo, The same underlying principle of oneness is all that is expressed. This is Kyogo's understanding from reading Dogen's masterwork. So I found it helpful to be reminded how faithful Dogen is in pointing his word fingers at the moon of the ultimate truth, over and over and over again. And Yasutani also says that when we have true enlightenment, there is not even a speck of what we thought was enlightenment.

[12:50]

So the experience itself, whatever that was that happened to the Buddha sitting under the tree, which he didn't describe. I mean, one of the reasons there's so much confusion about what it means to be enlightened is that the Buddha didn't say. All he said was how to get there. He talked about the path. He talked about the way of life. He talked about how to behave, the deportment, the understanding, the teaching, meditation. ethical practices and so on. He didn't tell us, you know, what the outcome was going to be. But if you follow that path, you know, sort of like if you stay on the train tracks, you will more than likely get hit by the train. If you don't, if you don't stay on the tracks, probably not. You'll probably get, you'll miss and the train will miss you as well. So although Avaloti Kiteswara was enlightened by sound, So he was sound, he heard the cries of the world. Maitreya, by forms. And a monk by the name of Lingyon, by looking at peach blossoms.

[13:54]

In each of these cases, what has been seen or heard or thought is not by a person, but by the entire universe itself. So, universe, peach blossoms. Universe, sound of the cries of the world. That's all. It's all of it. It completely fills the universe. That moment is one of, you know, this kind of, the lens is open fully on this one experience. The one experience conveys the entirety of the universe for the person at that time. So this isn't something that's so easy to understand, right? I think we all agree to that. It's not so easy to understand. And yet, that's what is being talked about. And all of these Zen teachers, all of the ancestors, over and over are trying to help us to understand what it is that cannot be said, to express the inexpressible. And we just don't think like that.

[14:56]

It's just not how we're designed. We think in subject and object. So it's really confusing us. I notice that on the faces of the students when I talk like this. Huh? What are you talking about? But they're sticking around. I'm really delighted by the current crop of young folks who are here right now. You know, they're really trying hard and they're really interested and they're showing up. They're showing up for zazen. They're showing up for classes. And I feel like the young teachers here are meeting them with a lot of enthusiasm. So I think that's what's really going to help is to be met by those who really want to show you, you know, kind of point. point their own fingers at practice, how to practice. So even though these are strange things that the Buddha and the ancestors have said, you know, just as I mentioned, the Buddha's declaring on his moment of enlightenment that I and all beings on earth are enlightened at the same time, you know. Kezon says in the story of the Buddha's awakening, which is chapter one of the transmission of light, that this I...

[16:03]

is a declaration not by Shakyamuni Buddha, but even Shakyamuni Buddha is born from this I, as are all beings on earth. So when he says I and all beings on earth, it's not talking about himself as a person. He's not talking about himself as separate, because that he has seen. is not the case. It's just not, it's not true. He's not separate. So he is speaking out of non-separation, the experience of non-separation. And then they use the example again in chapter one of the transmission of light, that when we lift up a net that's full of holes or a cloth full of holes, all the holes are raised when we lift the cloth. So everything, the universe, all comes up at the same time. I and all things on earth arise, are awakened at the same time. So again, it's like the image of Indra's net where all the little jewels of Indra's net reflect all the other jewels. That's the totality of what it is, where we are and what we're made of.

[17:10]

This is us, we're each a jewel reflecting all the other jewels and being reflected ourselves. So the I that the Buddha speaks of is the all-inclusive body of reality. our whole body, with each of us standing tall on our own two flat feet. This is Re and G complementing and completing one another, the host within the host. So it's at that moment when both the self-centered mind ceases objectifying, that awakening appears. And at such a time, there is no one else to recognize, and there's nothing to cognize. There's just that sound, that color, that bird, or that wallet that's hiding under a chair. Just that. And when we truly find our wallet, when we truly engage body and mind, the entire sky and the ground become a wallet, or a bird, or a color, or a sound.

[18:10]

Fully engaging body and mind. I think some of you are... undoubtedly familiar with the story from the Pali Canon, Old Wisdom Teachings. It's really a wonderful story. It's not too long. I'm going to recite it for you now. It's called Bahia of the Bark Cloth. And it's become very popular around here. I think Reb was the first person that recited this story when I first heard it. And then I've since read it and appreciate it very much because it's so Zen. It just sounds like, oh, the Buddha was a Zen teacher, no doubt about it. And here it is. Here's how that's so. And he's cutting through the pathway, talking about speech and conduct and all that and the classic Eightfold Path. Right here, he's cutting right to the core, right to the heart of awakening. So in the story, the monk Bahiya is desperate to understand the Buddha's teaching. And he keeps begging the Buddha to help him. He's chasing after the Buddha.

[19:13]

And the Buddha keeps saying, Bahiya, not now. This is not the time. I'm going on my begging rounds, going into town to get some food. Please, not now. And Bahiya just won't stop. You can just kind of see him like this little bouncy guy who's just, please, please, please help me. Maybe I won't live long enough to get your teaching. So please. So finally, the Buddha very kindly offers Bahiya. a simple remedy for not only reconnecting his body to his mind, but also his seemingly small life to the entire universe. So the Buddha says, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus. In the seen, there will be just the seen. In the heard, just the heard. In the imagined, just the imagined. In the cognized, just the cognized. This is how you should train yourself. And when for you there will be just the seen in the seen, just the heard in the heard, just the imagined in the imagined, and just the cognized in the cognized, then, bahiya, you, in connection with that, will not exist.

[20:27]

You, in connection with that, will not exist. You will not be found. in this world or in another world or someplace in between. Just this bahiya is the end of suffering. So he's teaching him non-duality of self and object. So through hearing this teaching from the Buddha, the mind of bahiya was right then and there released from the toxic belief in a separate self. Once having exhorted bahiya of the bark cloth with this brief explanation of the dharma, the Buddha left for town to beg for his meal. The next day, Bahiya, who had been desperately afraid that he wouldn't understand the Buddha's teaching before the end of his life, was attacked and killed by a cow with her young calf. When the Blessed One returned from his begging rounds and he heard the news of Bahiya's death, the monk said to the Buddha, Bahiya's body has been cremated, Lord, and his memorial stupa has been built.

[21:31]

What is his destination? What is his future state? To which the Buddha replied, Monks, Bahiya of the bark cloth was wise. He practiced the Dharma in accordance with the Dharma. And he did not pester me with issues related to the Dharma. Bahiya of the bark cloth is totally unbound. Totally liberated. And then, to help them further in realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One exclaimed, Where water... Earth, fire, and wind have no footing. There the stars don't shine. The sun isn't visible. There the moon doesn't appear. Their darkness is not found. And when a sage, a brahman through sagacity, has realized this for themselves, then from form and formlessness, from bliss and pain, they are freed.

[22:31]

So what the Buddha is talking about here, in his teaching to Bahia is this experience of awakening itself, just as Dogen is doing all the time and Suzuki Roshi did all the time. All of these Zen folks are doing all the time, which is that when the mind is no longer seen as separate from the body and this place is no longer seen as separate from that place or from any place else, what's particularly important for us is when our suffering Your suffering is no longer seen as separate from mine. That we are going to suffer this life together and for the benefit of each other as best we can. No separate self, no suffering alone. That's why this all matters. It's not just some philosophical insight or some mystical experience. That's very nice, but that's not the point. The point is that we don't suffer alone. No one sits alone.

[23:33]

I was telling someone recently that I had heard about this little practice that started at Tam High School that some of the students began a practice called No One Eats Alone. So if there was someone in the dining room that was sitting by themselves, and I think we all remember from high school, people who were sitting by themselves, no one went and sat with them. So they made this practice of no one eats alone. And so they would go sit with us. It kind of makes me cry. How can those kids be so wise and so kind and grown humans be so cruel and so destructive of one another? Anyway, no one suffers alone. So we don't really know, however, whenever sincere seekers beg for teachings, These generations of teachers are just doing the best they can to try and help them awaken to this most basic truth.

[24:38]

They don't really know how. The Buddha didn't really know how to help people awaken. He just kept talking. If he'd known how, he could have just gone poof and put some kind of magic spell on them. But he didn't and he couldn't. And that isn't how reality works. So he just kept explaining as best he could, using language, so that they could enter into their own explorations of what he was talking about. So in the preface to Yasutani's Flowers Fall, his book, we are offered this brief appreciatory verse to the Genjo Koan, written by the fifth abbot of a Heiji monastery, whose name is Gion Zenji. His short commentary on the Genjo Koan in Japanese was, Kore-nan-zo. Kore-nan-zo. Meaning, what is this? Without a question mark. What is this? It's a statement. What is this? So, the importance of this statement is made very clear by how often it is repeated throughout Yasutani Roshi's commentary on the Genja Koan.

[25:48]

What is this? He says again and again, what is this? It's like, just this is it. Very similar vein. And Yasutani Roshi says that what is this is fully engaging body and mind throughout all the activities of our daily life. Sitting, standing, hearing, seeing, or fooling around, you know. We are paying wholehearted attention to the actions of our life, and that is samadhi. As in the song of the jewel mirror, Samadhi, which our founding ancestor, Dongshan, wrote. praise of an awakened life and homage to an awakened life. So this word samadhi, which I think most of you have heard before, maybe, I don't know if you've looked into it a bit, but you probably had samadhi many times. I think samadhi is not uncommon. It means basically that the mind-body has been gathered in a kind of one-suchness. So I think oftentimes people can relate to samadhi as that time you were sitting by the fire at the beach and you just fell in a kind of peaceful...

[26:50]

Peaceful abiding. That Shakyamuni Buddha, when he was a young boy, when he was 14 years old, had a very important experience. It was during the agricultural festival. And he was sitting with his parents, the king and the queen, watching as the... the ox herds were whipping the oxen across the fields. And he saw how all the little animals in the soil were being dug up by the plows and the birds were coming down and eating the animals. And he just saw it as a kind of horror show, whereas everyone else was cheering and drinking and having a really good time. He was really disturbed by what he was seeing. So he left the crowd and he went and sat under a rose apple tree. And this is called the rose apple meditation. And it was that meditation in which the birds The young man just fell into this kind of samadhi of contentment. All the disturbance fell out of his body. He just felt very content sitting there under that rose apple tree. Maybe it was in bloom, probably. That would be nice to imagine, that that's what held him, was the blossoming of the tree.

[27:56]

And it was years later when he was trying to resolve his terrible pain about old age sickness and death. He was really seeking relief of his own suffering. And he tried all these things, as you remember, his ascetic practices, meditative practices, jhanas, trances, all kinds of samadhis with fancy names. And every time these practices would come to an end, he would return to his feeling not so great. So at one point he said, this is not the way. And then he remembered the experience of the rose apple meditation. And he thought, that's the way. I was content and I was thinking. I wasn't just blanked out. I was there. And so he used that experience that he had as a boy to build his pathway to awakening. So I think it's very common. for all of us to have experiences that are called, in Sanskrit, are called samadhi, where the mind is really gathered on an object.

[29:01]

And the feeling of separation is not even a question that that crackling fire is separate from you. You're not even thinking about that. You're just basically in a very peaceful state. Or at the ocean, that's a good place too. Or in the woods, just sitting in the woods. And meditators, that's pretty much what makes it so pleasant and we keep coming back for is these experiences of contentment you know i think i've said to you one of the definitions of nirvana that i particularly like is utter contentment utter contentment not wanting anything you know just content like this is i'm fine things are fine good enough so um Samadhi can refer either to one-pointed concentration, like rock climbers have when they're climbing up the face of a half-dome without ropes. That's samadhi. They're really focused on the next handhold.

[30:03]

Tennis players have been watching the Wimbledon. There's a lot of samadhi going on there. So athletics can also induce samadhi. But again, it's a little transient. It's not a particularly profound or deep. experience there's different kinds of samadhi some of them are are very short you know very kind of brief experience based on conditions like the ones i just named and some of them can go on for quite a long time can be like the buddha's uh samadhi that he discovered under the tree so this meditative this significance of the meditative experience can help us to practice these instructions that the Buddha gave to Bahiya. It's one thing to hear those instructions, in the scene, just the scene, in the herd, just the herd. But in a state of samadhi, of concentration, when you're really fully engaging with sound, you're fully engaging with sight, that's samadhi that will help you to practice in the scene, just the scene, in the herd, just the herd, without being distracted by thinking.

[31:11]

mostly. That's our main distractor, is stories that run through our heads that we take for a ride. So there are three kinds of samadhi, I thought I would share those with you this evening, that are conducive to liberation, and particularly talked about in the Zen school, and they are the characteristics of phenomena. Basically, signless, wishless, and empty. So signless, samadhi, wishless, Samadhi and empty. I'm going to say a little bit about each one of those. So in the first signless samadhi, we are no longer being fooled by the appearance of things. Nagarjuna, who is the master of the emptiness teachings, says that in the samadhi of wholehearted effort, one recognizes that all dharmas, all things, all elements of existence are free of signs. So if any of you have done any semiotics, studied semiotics, which is a whole science of signs, signs are those little symbols or triggers that draw us to kind of attach.

[32:20]

They attach to our minds, and they give us some sense of meaning. What things mean has to do with signs. I see the signs. I saw the sign, and then I have some clue about what the thing is. And I tend to attach to signs. There's a grabber there that grabs the signs. And this is one of the primary afflictions that we have, is that we fall for it. We fall for signs. And I'm going to show you a little diagram of that in a second. So, you know, the signs, when we are free of signs, then we are no longer attaching to this kind of unique and separate thing, as if it's outside. This is the mechanism by which we... we produce this sense of separation. It's by grabbing hold of signs. Self grabs the sign of objects. This is a technical way of talking about it in the Buddhist, in the Abhidharma way of talking. So the name of signs in Sanskrit is called nimitta.

[33:20]

You don't have to remember that. I thought it's kind of fun to learn the Sanskrit names because you'll see them if you study some of the early teachings. They'll talk about nimata. And then samya is the grasper. So the grasper, the samya, grabs the nimata. And that's how we get this feeling of separation. So grabbing a hold of signs is one definition of attachment or desire that leads us to suffering. Second noble truth. Suffering is caused by ignorance of the non-dual. nature of reality combined with a desire for things to be other than they are. You know, this deep desire that I want more light right now, or I want more sweetness in my coffee, or whatever it is that I want, is the cause of my discomfort. And there's extreme versions of that, and then there's the mild, everyday, kind of all-day versions of that, where things are not content, we're discontent. That's suffering in milder forms. So it's a good place to study suffering is the milder forms because the grosser forms are so terrifying that we can't really study what's happening.

[34:31]

So it's better, you know, that's why Zazen is kind of nice. You can study all of these little niggly things that are going on in a very safe room with a lot of other people. And it's relatively warm and the lights are down and, you know, it's quiet. So it's a nice time to look at these kind of... small-mindedness and how we work through this process of grabbing a hold of things with our mind as if we could. So I'm going to show you this diagram that I made some years ago about how the mind imagines it can actually take a hold of what it perceives. You know, Pema Chodron says that, and the Tibetans call this aspect of our imagination, biting the shampa. Biting the shampa. And the shampa is a hook. You know, grabbing the hook. So the sign is a hook. And then we... take our imagination and we try to grab a hold of the hook, which actually is just a fantasy. But, you know, that Lexa that just drove by is a hook. It's a nice color. And boy, would I like to have that.

[35:31]

So every time there's something that grabs a hold of us, you know, there's a hook there. And sometimes we succeed in getting the thing. If you ever go shopping and you get all this stuff that you saw on the shelf and you put it in your bag and you take it home and you take it out of the bag and they say, you don't want it anymore because it's yours. So it's like the thrill is gone. So you've got to go shopping again and get all that stuff that you want, put it in a bag, take it home, and then you don't want it anymore because now it's yours. So this is kind of an ongoing suffering that we do as human beings. So let me show you the drawing now. Grabbing the hook. Where's the hook? Here it is. Okay. Biting the hook. Can you see that? Yeah? Okay, good. So here we are. Biting the hook or grabbing a hold of science. So here's the grasper, Samya. This is a quality of our consciousness. We have this quality that is just built in and comes along with the territory.

[36:33]

It's called Samya. the grasper. It's what you think that you see or hear or taste or feel and that you desire. So over here are signs. So here's a sign. You know, we use that one a lot. Love, food, power, fame. You know, my birthday is celebrated as a national holiday. So these are the kinds of signs that we humans, you know, are just kind of... driven and we're taught to be driven right don't you want to be the valedictorian of your high school more than anything else or the you know most valuable player on your basketball team i mean that's where the elevation of oscars and all the ways that we reward humans for for uh for being the best for beating everybody else out or whatever it is this is kind of weird We're exhorted to do this. Come on. Come on, you guys. You can be the best. You can win. Did I tell you this story recently about them?

[37:35]

I don't know if I did, but anyway, it's a good one. So when the missionaries went to the Navajo, this is a Navajo story that I heard. They were teaching the kids how to do sports. So one of the sports they taught them was to race. So they drew a line in the ground and they told the kids to run. And whoever got across the line first was the winner. So that's pretty clear. So the Navajo, you know, they lined up as they were told and they told them to run and so they ran. And then the older kids waited for the younger kids to get to the line before they crossed. And the missionaries said, no, no, no, you don't run across the line. And the older kids, well, that's not fair. That's not fair. Anyway, kindness. Kindness abounds. So let's see.

[38:38]

Somehow. There we are. Lost my notes for a second there. God. Who am I without my notes? Oh, that's the wrong notes. Oh, my gosh. Wow. I know they're somewhere. Okay. Here we go. My grabber is trying to grab a hold of my notes. Okay. Here you are. You're hiding. All right. Got him. Okay, so that's biting the hook. So that was the first kind of samadhi is the samadhi of... What did I say? Samadhi of... Oh, signless. The signless samadhi. So the samadhi that heals is the one that isn't grabbing signs.

[39:40]

So the samadhi is the healthy thing. So the signlessness of things is the emptiness, seeing the emptiness of objects, right? And not wishing to grab a hold of things, basically. So then the next samadhi of the three is wishless. Literally means not putting anything in front of you. You don't want anything in front of you, such as plans for the future or desires for some particular objects that you just got to have or that you wish would either appear or disappear. So these kinds of desires are what lead to the afflictions of greed, hate and delusions. So we have signless samadhi, now we have wishless samadhi, and then the last samadhi, the third samadhi, is emptiness samadhi, which according to Nagarjuna is the one that recognizes the true nature of all dharmas, that all things are completely empty of inherent existence, empty of any self-nature, empty of any separate existence.

[40:42]

You've heard that over and over again. That's the drill we have when we hear empty. It's really important to add of inherent existence because when people hear empty, they think of nothing. Right away. The empty cup. I've used that example before and I'm going to show it to you again. The cup is empty. To our ears, sounds like there's nothing in the cup. So if we say something's empty, we think it's nothing. But emptiness doesn't mean nothing. It means empty of separate existence. Empty of objects that are outside of subjects. That's what's empty. That's not true. There's nothing like that. There's no subject separate from objects. We just... think there is, and we see it that way, and it's a trick. The way we're designed, the way our sense organs are designed, tricks us into actually thinking that what we're experiencing with our senses is coming from somewhere else. It's actually not that the sound is really happening inside of my neurons. No, no, no, the sound is over there. Actually, it's the conjoining of these, all of these conditions that creates the sound.

[41:49]

So I thought it would be good to review one more time under the heading of emptiness samadhi the three ways that we understand how an object is empty of separate or inherent existence. And as I like to do, I use the example of a cup because it works very well to think of it as an object that we think exists by itself. And the two ways of understanding this one phenomena also gives us a way of understanding what is meant by the two truths. So we went over this some time ago, but for me, it doesn't hurt to look at it again. And so I'm going to do that right now. Here we go. Screen share. Okay. So. Okay. So here's an example of the two truths about one phenomenon, one thing.

[42:51]

The one thing is the cup. So the cup is empty, has two meanings. In the relative truth, it means our common sense, the cup is empty. You'd tell me, well, there's nothing in it. In the ultimate truth, which is not common sense, it's upon analysis. Tibetans say this a lot, upon analysis. So you have to think about it. You actually have to consider it. This is one of these kind of intellectual exercises that we need to do in order to remind ourselves what the ultimate truth is referring to. So upon analysis, the cup is empty of inherent existence. And how so? All phenomena are empty of inherent or an independent existence for three reasons. This is easier than it sounds, actually. All things are dependent on parts. Okay, so the cup is dependent on a handle, big opening at the top, waterproof base, color, shape.

[43:57]

It's not too heavy, so you can actually lift it up. Gravity depends on all of these things to make a cup. It has parts. Take off gravity. Take that away. That's not a part. So, okay, the cup has parts. Okay, that's one thing. It depends on parts. Okay. Each of us depends on parts. If I didn't have all my parts and they weren't working well together, that would be the end of me. Take out my heart, take out my lungs, take out my bones. No food, right? So I depend on my parts. That's one dependency. All things depend on causes and conditions. Causes and conditions for the cup or the clay, being fired, and the potter, and the glaze, and... marketplace and gravity in that case is a cause and condition. And the fact that there's an earth for it to, you know, the gravity to push down on. Those are the big bang. All of those are the causes and conditions that bring to us the cup and us and everything.

[45:00]

And then the third one is that they depends. It depends on the conventions of language of words. Okay. So, There are lots of words for cup, you know, as we know. In fact, I looked up a whole bunch of them in different languages. There's tasa and calyx and pohar and kabas, to just name a few, you know. We think of English and we think, oh, that's the word. But actually, there's all kinds of words, which also are dependent. If I ask for a calyx, you know, here at Green College, people are just going to look at me, you know. We depend on the meaning of words and that we have a convention, conventional definitions of words, so that we can communicate with each other. So that's what language is all about. They're conventions. People got together in different parts of the world and agreed on the meaning of words. If I point to that object over there and I say cup, then hopefully that will work, unless you don't speak English.

[46:04]

And then maybe you don't know what I'm talking about. So... That's what I wanted to offer today about that particular paragraph of the Genjo Koan. And so next time I'm going to move through a few more paragraphs. I have planned to do that. And there's a lot of wonderful commentary available for each of these paragraphs. Starting with the next one, which says to study the Buddha ways, to study the self. This is a very big, big teaching Dogen gave and the Buddha gave, you know, that you begin by studying the what you think you are, who you think you are. And see if you can find yourself. You know, is there a self? Can you find it? Reb once offered a reward for anyone who found their self. It wasn't very much money, but he did offer us a bit of a prize if we found our self. And so far, no one has claimed it. So I think he was pretty confident that was going to be the case. So I also want to say a little bit about what's going on right now.

[47:06]

Because we're studying the transmission of light, you might be interested to know that right now I am engaged in a 21-day ceremony with a student of mine. I've been working and studying with This man, his name was Johan, when I first met him, Johan Ostland from Sweden. And he was here as a farm apprentice, you know, many, many years ago. He came and worked on the farm. And then he went to Tassajara and he studied, decided he really wanted to ordain. So I ordained him some many years ago. And then he was shiseau with me down at Tassajara when I led a practice period, probably, I don't know, five years ago or so. And now he's moved back east to Brattleboro. where he has started a small Zen center there in that town. He's married now and has a rescue dog. I forget the name of the dog. But anyway, they have a home and a garden. And very ironically, he lives a few houses down from Linda Ruth Cutts' daughter and family.

[48:12]

It's a very tiny world, more and more tiny as I get older. So anyway... Hakusho is his Dharma name, which I gave to him. It means white pine. So he goes by Hakusho. And he's here now. He arrived a couple of days ago to begin this 21-day Dharma transmission ceremony. So it's kind of exciting for me to be talking about the transmission of light, Dharma transmission, and doing Dharma transmission with my dear friend, my dear student, Hakusho. And we're both having an incredibly, I don't know what to say, it's just very lovely to be doing this together. This morning we spent three hours chanting together. And that was samadhi, definitely a samadhi occurred during that time, during that chanting. So I thought I would say a few things as we go, because we'll all be together as we're doing this.

[49:12]

I mean, I'll see you next Sunday. I won't. be here the following Sunday because that's the Sunday when we're doing the major ceremony. It takes place in a red room. It's all very kind of esoteric. It's quite elaborate. It's a very old traditional Japanese form of ritual form brought from China, brought from India. So all of these ritual expressions of dharma transmitting Dharma, are very old and quite amazing. So we'll be doing that on the last Sunday of July. So, yeah. So I thought I would just bring up certain things that I can share with you, certain things I can't really share with you because it is a private ceremony and it's intended to be that. So I can't... tell you the secret stuff, but I can tell you about the wrappings, about the parts that are happening that the community is aware of.

[50:20]

Like this morning, quite a few of the students have volunteered to go with Hakusho while he does his morning rounds of the temple. So, you know, when I was the abbess, I used to make rounds of the temple every morning, offering incense at all the altars. not all of them, but a lot of them, before going into the Zendo. So in a way, you're representing the entire community and making offerings of gratitude in the kitchen, in the library, in the bathhouse, and the altars inside of Cloud Hall. So Hakusho is doing that every morning, and he starts an hour before the rest of us get up. So instead of getting up at 5, for his eyes at 5.20, he's getting up at 4. and doing these rounds with the students who were joining him. I heard that this morning was the first one, the first rounds. I heard it was very nice. It was still quite dark, and they were all moving around down in the Suzuki Roshi Memorial, which is behind the garden now, a new area that we've been building for our senior students and former abbots to have...

[51:35]

placement of stones, kind of memorial garden for the Zen Center leadership. And then also Zigeroshi's stupa is there now. It's been placed on a beautiful stone granite altar. And so he went there. I think this is the first time someone doing Dharma transmission has actually been able to offer incense and bow there, right there in the new memorial garden. Yeah, so I did mention that last week there won't be class, and there's also another week that I will be away, which is August 13th, since I will be at Tassajara during Sangha Week. I'm hoping some of you might be there, but for the rest of you, I think I'll be in transit at that time, so I won't be able to come online now. There are a few more absences that are planned for later in the year. Since I've stepped down as abbess, I actually have... time so that I can do things like go somewhere.

[52:36]

So I'm going to do a little traveling, which is, I'm excited about that. And I certainly will give you advance notice about that. Okay, so that's my today's chat, some chats. There's no link for Judy. Will you send the link again? Okay, so I don't know why this doesn't work. But I will tell you it, because all I did was type this in. I think if you all know how to use your computers better than I do, you'll be able to get access. So the name of the site where you can look for the eight translations is called The Zen Site, all one word, The Zen Site, S-I-T-E dot com. And if you look up eight translations of the Genjo Koan, you'll find it. I'm sorry. Amir isn't here because he could probably help. I think he knows how to do this. He sent me the link. I found it when you said it earlier. Okay. Okay. Judy found it. Good.

[53:36]

Okay. So if that won't work, I can get it for you. I'll try to get it for you at another time. So hopefully that did it. So anything you all would like to bring up or talk about right now? We have some time. Be happy to hear from you. There's a hand. Hope. I just passed. Hi. A little while ago. Yeah. So I'm curious about. This topic of awakening and hearing all these stories of. People's awakenings and the story of the monk who. had his moment of awakening when looking at the peach blossoms and, um, also thinking about how in the Genjo Khan, Dogen says an awakened one may not know that they're awakened.

[54:42]

So how does that kind of work while also people talking so much of like that great moment of their own awakening? And then also, I don't know if I've ever heard you or Reb or modern teachers talk about a moment of their great awakening. That would be something, wouldn't it? I think I told, I don't know if you were on Hope when I was telling folks that I once went around and asked all the teachers if they were awake. Norman and Reb and Mel. It was really fun. So you might try that. It's kind of a private conversation. And they each said something different. So that was fun too. So yeah, I think it's not a thing.

[55:43]

It's not something you can grab the nimitta, grab the signs. There's no signs. There's no signs of awakening. There's no characteristics. Samadhi, empty, signless, wishless, empty of inherent existence. If you got that, you got it. Okay? So, you know, I think one of the reasons I think I really appreciate Soto Zen is because it doesn't... It's not jumping around on that. Don't announce it in the Zendo. Hey, Hope just got enlightened this morning, everybody. Put her name on the altar. I think they actually do that, I've heard, in certain other traditions that I haven't practiced in, so I can't really say much about it. But to really encourage people to wake up is kind of a thing. And Dogen talks about that. He said, you know, when you have a practice which is based on trying to accomplish awakening and trying to have what's called Kensho or Satori, these are these kind of, you know, moments of non-dual awareness, like the peach blossoms, just peach blossoms.

[56:56]

If you're really making that a hallmark or a bar that you're asking people to hit, that's okay. I mean, that might work. But the thing is, that technique... is going to have to be dropped when you get to where you're going. So it's like a raft that takes you to the other shore. And he said, so, you know, he said, my zazen, Zogan said, my zazen is not like that. My zazen is the Buddha's practice itself. Your zazen is the Buddha's practice itself. There's nothing to get. Anything you try to get is going the wrong way. So I think his discouragement and the discouragement I've heard all the years I've been at Zen Center is to not try to get a hold of anything, like awakening. Because that is the opposite. Dropping body and mind is what Dogen talked about, his experience. You know, these woven finger puzzles, you know, if you start pulling, what happens? You have to relax.

[57:57]

You have to let go in order for your fingers to come loose. I think the whole intention of our practice is to let go. As Paul Disco said to us when I was brand new, Zen is not something you're going to get. It's about something you're going to get. It's about something you're going to lose. So what do you need to lose? What are you holding on to? What do you think you've got that you're afraid of letting go? So it's really, it's kind of opposite world. from what we've been trained to do. And it's hard because we're trained to get something, to accomplish something, to be, you know, be somebody and have somebody to show for it. You know, I think my mom is a little worried about me. Honey, don't you want to come back to the world? Not really. I think I'm in the world, mom.

[58:58]

I really am. We got trees and everything right here. Pretty nice. So we have to make our decisions around our priorities and giving things up is, you know, not necessarily things we've been encouraged to do. Okay. So good question. Okay. You're welcome. Lisa. Oh, you're a Brattleboro Zen person. Meant to mention, yes, and Lisa practices at Brattleboro Zen Center. We're continuing. I practice at Green Gulch, too. Yeah, we are continuing to practice. Haka Show has sort of brought us together in a way that we can support and continue going. Great. Yeah, so it's really great. Great. I'm so happy.

[60:00]

We are very happy for him. He's, he's a glow at the moment. Oh, good. He's a glow. Yeah. I think he's just, it's spring and it's beautiful here right now. And just, everything is just stunning. You know, it's just painful. It's July and it's still spring. Well, yeah. Well, it's foggy. So we got, you know, yeah, it's not going to dry out here. It's just coldest. What was it? Mark Twain said coldest winter of my life was the summer in San Francisco. Yeah. So it's been foggy almost nonstop. So it's very green. Green gulch is green green gulch. And, yeah, the garden is beautiful. And so he's in the tea house doing his practices. So that's very nice, too. Yeah. We will be glad to have him back. Yeah. That's awesome. Pictures to share with you all. Okay. So I have a question.

[61:01]

I want to go back to, you were, you know, this is back to Bahia and the instructions to Bahia. And, you know, you were saying, and you said, you know, you were talking about in the seeing, just the see, no distraction from thinking. And in the hearing, just the heard, no distraction from hearing. And you stopped. You didn't go on to the next two. I did. Oh, you mean I said them the first time. The first time you went through all of them, but then when you came back, you said, well, there's no distraction from thinking. Well, now wait a second. Because here we go. In the imagined, just the imagined. No distraction from hearing. No distraction from hearing. Or seeing. Just imagining. Just cognizing. Just sitting. Just live is it. Just daydreaming while you're sitting there. If you're aware of it, you get a point.

[62:03]

If you're into points. Oh, of course. I'm looking for the A+. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Justice is it. Yeah. What are you actually doing when you're thinking? I mean, what am I actually doing when I'm sitting there with the translations I've dug up? I'm trying to get the different translations of the Genji. Oh, good, good, good, yeah. What are you actually doing when you're thinking? Thinking? You're just thinking, but are you also mindful of the fact that you are thinking? Or is that a distraction? That would be kind of two layers on the onion, I think, you know? Yeah. Do you have time to do that? You'd have to be awfully fast to... Oh, I'm really great at distraction. Well, I think then when you're distracted, you're just distracted by whatever you're distracted by. Yeah, okay. Just that. I mean, I doubt we're ever really off the money. You know, you're always merged with whatever you're aware of.

[63:06]

It's just that the dreaming thing is basically depriving you of an awful lot of other experiences that you might be having, like the moon and the water, or the dew drop on the grass, or the sound of the bird. If you're able to do that, if you're able to daydream and still be aware of your sense experiences, that's okay. But I think most people pick thinking over the others, get lost in thought. It feels like things come through so quickly. They do. The... being focused on something, but then realizing that you're focused on something. Now you're focused on realizing you're focused on something. Yeah. It moves fast. Say whether that's mindful or if that's just a running distraction.

[64:14]

Well, this is certainly, you know, up to our experience of, you know, how we all experience ourselves. And, you know, when we're sitting, we're talking about sitting, right? Pretty much. Yeah. You know, I'm not, I do try to pay attention, sitting, walking, driving, all that, you know, I try to be aware of, of phenomena. and my relationship to them, particularly driving. So, you know, samadhi is not advised when you're driving. You don't want to be in some state of singular focus when you're needing to actually be able to respond to things that are changing quickly. So, you know, it's mostly the deep meditative states. where you can actually experience the working of the mind, which is what the Buddha was doing. He wasn't running around the track when he was studying his mind. He was sitting with his body stable and upright and breathing. He had a very healthy posture, stable posture that he could maintain for quite a while.

[65:23]

And then basically noticed... These illusions as they arose, Amar the evil one, that was pretty exciting. And then the various experiences he had of his body and the parts of his body. He did a whole pilgrimage around his body, around his sense organs and his mind and so on. And as did all the monks who practiced as he did. They really made lists of all the different things, the parts, right, of the whole. So they were looking at the G. and having insight about re. So, you know, when you're in a deep state of concentration, as will happen in long sittings, as you know, then basically my experience of my discursive mind is it's more like a little babbling brook that's running along my ease rather than the radio play that's really got hold of all the insides of my head. or some song I can't get out of my head or whatever.

[66:25]

That's really distracting. So when I'm in a state where I feel like I'm pretty settled, pretty calm, then I can actually allow myself to turn toward analyzing phenomena. So there's shamatha, which is calming practice. There's two parts of meditation. There's shamatha, which is tranquility. So you tranquilize yourself following your breath. You know, you get that samadhi that comes when you're just basically riding the breath, like a little boat on the ocean. That's calming. And when your mind is calm, then you can begin to vipassana, insight. What is an object? That's a question. That's a vipassana question. What is the self? You know, is there separation? Is it real?

[67:26]

What's real? What is real? So these are insight questions. Yeah. Most of which will end up with like, there's nothing there. Nobody's getting ripped to the board. Yeah, right. Did you find anything? Well, not really. Nothing I can hang my hat on. So then you become a little more looser about, a little more relaxed about the things that you think. Oh, I'm just thinking. Just thinking. Just believing. Just wanting, you know? Oh, that's all. No big deal. So, you know, kind of desensitize ourselves to our own thoughts and our own preferences. You know, really? Really? You really don't like that person? Really? Why don't you watch a little more? See if that's really so. Probably not. Thank you.

[68:30]

You too. Hi, Tim. Hi, food. Thank you for coming. Your nephew. Was it your nephew? I think he really liked you. Oh, good. And liked Zen. He liked the Zen Center a lot in the gardens. He really enjoyed it. Of course, so did I. And my wife still says, why can't you be more like Fu? Oh, dear. She doesn't know me that well. I was going to pose a form of a question regarding awakening. I thought of a possible way of looking at it where it actually could, someone could awaken and not realize it because I would think of it as millions of little tiny microscopic awakenings and we're not even realizing they're happening and they just built up.

[69:39]

And then when we get the last one done, we're not even aware that we awakened. What do you think? I think this happens all the time. Yeah. That's right. I think, you know, the Zen position is you're already awake. You're just not understanding what that means. You don't really, you know, you haven't grown into an appreciation of, okay, you're already Buddha. This very mind is Buddha. Then the next thing is now act like it. You know, that's the hard part. It's the act like, you know. That's the part which I'm challenged by and that you're challenged by. I do want to act like that. And I have read all about the deportment of the Buddha and the behavior and the speech and the yada yada. So bringing your human into alignment with your own idealized version of yourself is the 20 years of practice, of really working through all of your karmic hindrances. So awakening doesn't solve, like I said recently, you can't boil water with awakening.

[70:42]

You can't make a cup of tea with awakening. It's not good for anything other than beginning to look back on your delusional thoughts and feelings. Awakening helps you to really begin to look at the human, at the distractions and the delusions. So that's what it's for. It's to illuminate. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. It should be a little uncomfortable. Oh, for me? Extremely. That's okay. Welcome to the club. Thank you, Fu. You're welcome, Tim. Alicia. Hi, Fu. How are you? Good, good, good. How are you? I'm doing well, thanks. Whoops, let me lower my hand. Okay. Fu, as I was listening to you read the paragraph about the... about the reflection, it really, I really have trouble with, I feel like we are creating the delusion with our language, like we're creating the distinction of Rienji.

[71:53]

And then we say, but no, it's not that. But first there was a step where we actually made the distinction where there never was a separation. And Dogen does that, but that makes it harder. Like, Do you know what I mean? It feels like that makes it harder. Like, I have to agree to accept that there's a re-NG, but now, no, it doesn't. Like, I have to agree to go down the road with you, and then I got to drop it. Like, you told me to pick it up. Now drop it. Yeah. Well, you can't drop it if you don't pick it up. You know, there's no – if you're already done, you know, you're done. But – You don't, I feel like you don't have to be done. You just didn't have to see it that way. Like you can still, do you know what I mean? Like there seems like there's another way to do it. Now your job is to do that. So if you think there's another way to do that, then the challenge is on you.

[72:54]

Okay, let's see. Let's see your genjo coin. You know, because Dogen's working with the... You know, he's working with his monks who are basically like us. They're wrapped up in their delusions. They don't actually understand what he's saying. And so he's like the Buddha did too. The Buddha tried to show people. He showed them the universe. He goes, hey, look, you guys. Do you see it? I mean, look out the window here. You can't believe what I'm looking at here. It's absolutely stunning. Is that enough? No, not really. So I'm back in my human need to have some better understanding. Can you explain that to me? I do see the night sky and I get it. There's all these galaxies twirling around. Yeah, I get it. Is that not enough? Not really. So can you help me understand what it is that I'm seeing or why I think it's outside of myself? Because I do. So basically the Buddha was talking to us on our terms. Dogen's talking to us on our terms. So we get our terms, right?

[73:55]

And then he goes, Watch it collapse. He's a magician. He's using the tricks of the trade the way we think. We are dualistic thinkers. He's using the tricks of dualistic thinking in order, like they say, to use a thorn to take out a thorn. Using language to help us to extract the poison of language. Have you read the Vimalakirti Sutra? I haven't, but I haven't. Oh, you got it, you got it, because that's exactly, that whole chapter on non-duality, it's very easy to read, it's a wonderful text. There's a whole chapter where the monks are all giving examples of non-dual understanding, one after another. It's really good, and they're really good. And then you get to the end of the chapter, and the Manjushri gives his explanation of non-duality, kind of like the Buddha's teaching about when there's no sun or moon or, you know, like that one, and there's no light and there's no dark and, you know, then that's freedom and you're going like, what?

[75:02]

So Manjushri gives an explanation about that. And then Manjushri says to Vimalakirti, the layman, what about you, great teacher? How do you express non-duality? And Vimalakirti says nothing at all. To your liking, I can see. Yeah, yeah. Thunderous silence. Yeah, I think what I'm questioning to you is somewhat cultural. It's conventional, but it's cultural because I wonder if we were in another culture, like an indigenous culture where there isn't a separation. We don't make objects of things, right? And I think that way would be a different way to realize the oneness of everything. But... I understand you have to work with what you've got. You're going to have to get reborn in an indigenous culture and never be taught to think dualistically. I would love that. Yeah, I would do. I think I'm going to have to deal, like you said, deal with what we got, how we condition.

[76:04]

But then there's a richness of that. I mean, when I say to people who are having difficulties of various kinds, I say, you know, working with your difficulties, when you actually figure out how to take care of that for yourself, you'll be a great resource to others. who have that same, whether it's self-loathing or trauma of various kinds, your working with your trauma will give you an amazing way of helping others. You'll be a guide. So we don't want to not have problems. We actually want to acknowledge the ones we have, like dualistic thinking, and then see how do you explain dualistic thinking to dualistic thinkers. How do you explain non-duality to dualistic thinkers? Yeah, that's hard. I get it. I see what you're saying. And that's what Dogen does. He's playing with words. He's playing with them. So he sets something up and then he goes. Now you see it. Now you don't. Yeah, because I feel like you have to be willing to accept what he says initially.

[77:08]

And then he pulls it right back. That's right. What? Why did we have to? Why did you do that? Because you won't forget it. I don't forget that moment when that got pulled out from under me. It was like, that was shocking. Yeah. You know, do that again. Let me see if I can catch the trick. Right. I'm doing the trick that I'm falling for. I got that one down. I want to learn how to undo that. Yeah. You know. That's very helpful. Thank you for talking this out for me. With me. As you. I appreciate that. Because I was, yeah, I was getting stuck and that's the opposite. Thank you, Fu. You won't either. Yeah. Okay. All right, Dean and Yang, and then I think that might be it for our evening.

[78:08]

Hi, Fu. This made me, this conversation here made me think about I have gotten into the habit of, you know, we chant the heart suture in the morning, but I've gotten into the habit of reading it at different times during the day. The parts that have become important to me at this moment are no eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue. And that's what made me think about this conversation. I was talking to someone recently, a young man who talked about... I believe he's been sitting for maybe two or three years and he's talking about this anguish. And I talked about me reading the heart suture and I said, if I have no eyes, no ears, no nose, then I don't have that anguish. And that's what it sounds like we're talking about here. We do have eyes, ears, nose, and throat. But when we don't have that anguish, commitment to them or that belief in them or that marriage to them whatever that thing and we do have that freedom because it sounds like this is what we've been talking about is oh here I'm going to have you walk this road but then I'm going to tell you to drop it and that's exactly I think especially that part right now of the heart sutra is that what it does it's reminding me that's

[79:37]

That's the thing you're holding on to, and that's the thing that needs to be let go of for everything that you carry with you when you have your eyes, but we have our ears. That is how it gets let go. But when Alicia was talking, that's what I started thinking about. Yeah, that's great. That's a wonderful practice. I've often done that myself when I'm walking in the woods. One of the first times that Heart Sutra really struck me, like a big pizza pie, was when I was chanting no path. And I was walking on a little path through the woods. And then the no path. And I was like, oh, my God, there's no path. There's no path. I mean, this is the world I'm walking on here. Why am I thinking I'm on a path? Why do I limiting myself to the path? So I kind of got off the path and I started wandering around the trees. And I was really excited about that because it was my first kind of encounter with what you're talking about. There's no path.

[80:38]

Yeah, it's really neat when that, like what she was talking about, when you get it. I mean, it's gone, but you get it. Right, right, right. It showed up and then it's, you know, but yeah, so that, I liked hearing that. Thank you. Well, the impact of it doesn't leave. You're perfumed. They talk about perfumed. When you have these experiences, the perfuming doesn't leave. It impacts you. And then that's what keeps growing. You know, the odor gets stronger the more you practice. Hello, Ying. Hi, Fu. Hi. Hi. I'm just thinking about the conversation you and Alicia were talking about this now, like this wish, like I will be born in this indigenous culture with like no duality. So I think I have a strong wish for that like a while ago.

[81:40]

But now I actually don't have that big wish on that. And I feel like maybe one of the reasons I actually think I need to go through the duality, all those delusions is because I will understand how others feel. Like in a way that because of my, I went through the whole, you know, everything. I have more, I don't know. I just, my heart is touched when I see other people. going through that so I'm not like a follower like detached from yeah that's beautiful and to me that's the biggest to be the biggest biggest thing for me like yeah that's the gift when your compassion when your heart opens you know that's what enlightenment is it's heart opening that you just you just care you just care about everybody and it's painful when people suffer you suffer with compassion is to suffer with others And that's so amazing. So much better than not caring. Like, you know, I mean, that's possible.

[82:41]

People cannot care about the suffering of others. And I think that's tragic. So I appreciate your seeing the virtue of that. Yeah. Sometimes I criticize them. Then I come back to like, I was like that. That was me. It's like, how can I be so like? Yeah. Yeah. you're learning and they're learning and they, they love you and they watch you learning. And I think that's such a gift. It's such a gift. It's great. Such a big support. Yeah. They're kind of noisy here. Okay. Thank you. Thanks. Wonderful to see you all and please take care. Can you see the gallery? Can I see? Oh, gallery. I did gallery. Did you? You did gallery? Oh, I'm in gallery now. Yeah. Great. The rogues gallery. Excellent. Lovely to see all of you. Very nice. Please be well.

[83:41]

And yeah. Hope where you are, things are good. Good for you. Please feel free to speak if you like. Farewell. Thank you so much. Thank you. Bye. Have a great week. Have a great week. Bye.

[84:10]

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