This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good afternoon. Welcome back. We invited our participants, retreat participants, to join the student gathering. And so some of them are here. Welcome to all of you who came. So we were just thinking, we wanted to try to weave together what we were doing last time, yesterday, long, long ago, what we were doing in our conversation and bringing up important issues. And I think one of the things that happened at Green Lodge, there was some anxiety about just sort of opening the floor for people to talk about maybe what's going on here. what kinds of things have happened to any of you or to any of us in our efforts to practice and live together or meeting with guests or how the experience is.

[01:06]

I mean, of course, it's the lens of race that we're looking through and how that affects our lives. And sometimes we don't even notice there's any issues about that, particularly if you're in a room where everybody's the same color that you are, you know, where's the race? So like men and women, I mean, you're with women, where are the men? It's not relevant. unless you have the contract. So we were thinking maybe we would open the floor to conversation, particularly if there's something alive for you. One of the things that we shared this morning with our retreatants were some community agreements that we made at Greenwulch, with gratitude to the East Bay Meditation Center, which basically has been working diligently for years on developing a way to meet together across lines of perceived difference. So Larry Yang, who may have been down here teaching, I don't know if Larry came, but some of you may know Larry. He taught at Green Lodge recently, and he was telling us that when they first formed the East Bay Meditation Center, they were very conscious about getting someone from each so-called representative group, so male and female and Asians and African Americans, the whole thing.

[02:22]

I guess the whole thing, partially part of the whole thing. We have for everybody to have the whole thing. And then there were maybe 16 people or so on that initial board. And he said, we hated each other. We couldn't get along at all. All our differences were so apparent in how our approach to practice and our approach to community and so on. So that was the beginning of their community, was finding out how to talk to each other in a way that allowed them... to form, you know, a welcoming and inclusive community, which I know they've done. I hear only wonderful things about how comfortable people feel going to East Bay meditation and what a welcoming place it is. So those agreements, I put them in my pocket, but I would read them to you. I think the main ones that, I hope I have them. Can anyone bring them from there? So, I think the main ones are self-focus, that if you're going to talk about something, talk about your own experience rather than something you saw happen to someone else or representing someone else you're concerned about.

[03:34]

Let them represent themselves. If we all represent ourselves, I think we'll be going a long way to finding out who we are, for one thing. So that's one. Elaine, do you want to... just in case you didn't want to have to attention go on to welcome another one is to to try it on so maybe there are ideas that you haven't heard before and right away you have a reaction I don't think like that But try it on. Give yourself time to absorb whatever it is that you heard. And if you want to respond to something someone else has said, you need to ask their permission. May I respond to what you just said? And in order to do that, repeat what you heard. And ask them, is that what you said? Because you may find if you do that as regular practice, most often it's not what they said.

[04:38]

It's actually, you missed an important point. So you want to make sure you actually heard what you're responding to. before you actually see. Now may I respond to what you said, now that I've got it. So, please, we welcome you all to offer your thoughts and your questions, and again, around the filter of race and white privilege. Whiteness, broadly. Whiteness. It's not just privilege. Uh-huh. Thank you. The being, the construct itself. Yeah. Do you want to say a little about that? Yeah, sure. Just briefly. And we're hoping to, goddesses willing, technology goddesses willing to offer a slideshow Wednesday evening.

[05:40]

Wednesday evening. that shares a little bit of history. But one of those things that I'm sure some of you know and some of you don't know is that white was constructed, right? That there are not white people, actually, but there are white people. Talk about the two truths. And so whiteness, when we say whiteness, we're talking about the construct. And so often people conflate the two things. And so we could talk about whiteness and people may feel personally targeted or spoken about. It's not necessarily you as a white-skinned person, but actually the construct that was developed that then has all sorts of ramifications that exist in relative space and time, particularly here, but also now throughout the world. And so white privilege itself has become kind of like a buzz, but there's other things that exist that are part of the construct of whiteness that was... And one of the definitions that gets shared is that white as a legal framework was developed in order to maintain power and privilege.

[07:05]

So it's actually constructed. And then people were not... Everybody white-skinned wasn't always white. They were allowed into the definition of whiteness, and other people were kept out. And so, you know, fast forward here, now we just think of white in a particular way, but it wasn't always that way. So whiteness was constructed, and with it, certain protocols of behavior... that weren't necessarily endemic to the culture of the different peoples like Irish peoples or Scottish peoples or German peoples, but there became this like acceptability politic and then the construct of whiteness has then all sorts of ramifications. One of the main ones which we spoke about yesterday is silence, right? Particularly around race. And so that is actually part of, and it's sort of like couched inside of politeness, right? That it's not polite to talk about certain things.

[08:07]

It's not polite to talk about race, it's not polite to talk about money, and it's not polite to talk about sexuality. And those are all things that were constructed, and as I said, not necessarily true. You leave the country and you go visit the peoples themselves, You'll find Irish in Ireland are not so quiet about a lot of these types of things. But here, in the construct of whiteness, people have taken on what it is to be acceptably white, basically. And then white is the ground zero from which everything else is then referenced. And one of our biggest challenges is exactly that. We take that construct of whiteness and its baseline as the end-all, be-all, and everything else is different. So we always talk about, like, the black church. Why is the church black?

[09:10]

We have a church and we have a black church. What does that mean by default? That the church is a white church. We don't have to call it a white church, but it's because it is just the church. So those kinds of things, and once your ears perk up and you hear a few of those things, you'll start to notice. Even the Catholic Church, like the Latinos, is different and is held as like the Latinos Catholic Churches are referred to specifically and separately from the broad general church, which by default means that it's the white Catholic Church. And so all of that gets into our skins and ourselves and our way of thinking and being so that we think there are certain things that are normal, the way that I spoke yesterday about, for instance, the baths and the fact of not having an area that is private for people to shower in and the difference in people's bodies, which I wanted to add something about that as a history point.

[10:13]

But we think of it, the response was like, oh, but everybody does that. And it's really like, no, no, everybody white is what you mean, which is, of course, also not true. But that's the reference point. So that's what I mean by whiteness. And just a point, I want to say and applaud and celebrate that there is a privacy, private space for showering, as many of you know, if you... been in the baths if you paid attention maybe you didn't need one because you in fact you're happy without it and so I want to you know celebrate that because I think that it eventually came from that conversation of pushing back so things do change and just to say that one of the things about particularly black folks around bodies is that you have to remember there was like 150 some odd years of what it meant for black people to be naked was that they were being sold.

[11:14]

Their naked bodies were being objectified to the point of having their genitalia handled, having their armpits lifted, their people going into their mouths. And so the sensitivity of like about bodies is not like prudish. It's actually, there's real history. Oftentimes, a lot of black people themselves don't know that, that that's where it came from. We just grew up with no nakedness. We don't do that. And then in culture, we're hyper-sexualized on the other end of the spectrum, so it's all rather confusing to all of us, actually. So there, whiteness and what's alive for you? I have two, one question, one comment.

[12:16]

Your name, please. My name is Dina. And what you just said about it being like the church and then the black church. But if I was in a different country, like if I was in Haiti, there'd be the church and then there'd be the white church if there was a white community. So how is that not racist? How is that always racist or is that always systemic? I guess I don't really... Like majority of America is white. So it doesn't... I can hear that it doesn't make sense that the go-to is the white church. It's already assumed. But I wonder if you could elaborate on like if the country... So I think it's a more, so that was one example and I'm trying to pull for another example because it's not just the church, right?

[13:23]

It's a whole bunch of things. It's a food. I sat on a board and at some point I just had like a conniption. I was like, I always have to eat y'all's food. I don't eat that food. And, you know, what you think is entertaining is like not actually very interesting to me. So they were asking like, what's wrong? Aren't you fine with the way that we are? Because I kept pushing for diversity and inclusion on the board and in the staff of the organization. And so it's not just that. And I'm sorry, I don't have a really good example, but it's something like that. It's a sense of like, oh, everything that we do, we think is normal. It's actually referenced off of white culture. And in terms of it being racist, the current and conventional wisdom is that racism is race plus power. And so if you don't have the positionality, the power, you can't be racist.

[14:24]

You can be biased. You can be discriminatory. You can be all of the things. You can be prejudiced. You can be a bigot. You can be all of those things. But once you have... the power of your particular, your race being dominant, you are then dealing with something different because what you think, all of your prejudices, bigotry, all of it have a different impact. So when I think something about white people, it's just my problem, right? So if I have prejudices, it's just my problem. It doesn't have much in terms of ramifications. But if as a white person in dominant power, my problem with like colored people actually has an impact, a different kind of impact on colored people, right? Because it's the multiplication effect of the power, right? So that my personal individual bigotry, prejudice, et cetera, is multiplied in power to actually have an impact on people, right? The people that do not have the power.

[15:26]

And that's the same... That is true with gender dynamics and all of those things, right? So the way that women perceive men doesn't have the same, because they don't have the power, doesn't have the same impact. If you ever get a chance to see, what's the comic's name? It's got a letter. He's got letters. Louis C.K. He's got this little snippet about being a white man. It's awesome. He's like, what can you do? He called me a cracker. Woo, I'm a cracker. He's like, you could basically transport him as a white man into any time in the past, and he'd be good. But the great point is he said, the future, not so great. He's like, because he's going to come back on us. But it's that sense of the people in dominant positions of power. their individual personal thoughts have much more impact because of that position.

[16:30]

Thank you. And my comment is, so I'm planning on, I'm thinking of coming here in January to practice and to be a resident amongst us. And so this week was kind of like, okay, what's Tassahara like? And today, And since I've been here, it's kind of felt... I wonder and I want to talk to the community about this idea of... I can feel my heart beating faster because I felt unwelcomed. You know, I felt kind of like I was disappearing in the background. And it's kind of... The guest services and the student life is very, very distinct here. So maybe that's it, or maybe because I'm not known to this community, people are still eyes casting, the eyes are still down.

[17:32]

And I know that at Green Gulch, that was one of the biggest issues, was we weren't welcoming people, we weren't looking at people, we weren't acknowledging them. And I think we have this idea that, and you can mistake me if I'm wrong, but from the conversations that we've had at Green Gulch, is that Buddha didn't... his eyes cast down the whole time it was he was welcoming he said hello to the people that were walking by and um i wonder if we can explore that idea of what it means to practice and what it means to to be welcomed and to have that welcoming um aura so so a person of color doesn't take that to be racist it's just the form or it's or what what is it what does that look like to be welcoming community so we don't have these I could I honestly if we weren't going to have this conversation today I wouldn't be coming back in January if I'm so happy this week is happening but the way that I felt this morning was just like oh this is what whiteness feels like this is what it means to be like kind of just in the corner and like okay I'll just hide you know so I'm not the type of person I hide I wonder if we could talk about that and what you think of what the Buddha would do

[18:50]

I thank you for your courage. Yeah, it's a big topic in our community. And we have renamed the office the Welcome Center for this very reason. We've heard for years we're not welcoming. And we don't look at people, we don't smile at them. It's kind of a zen aura that maybe you all caught it when you came here. I think it's... I remember telling somebody... I love going to the Presbyterians because they all look at me and smile. And I come and they go, ah, we're so glad to hear you. And I'm like, oh, wow, I'm not in Zen. So there is something cultural. I think there's something to do with ideas of concentration and meditation and all sorts of things. But it's true, I do recall, and I wish I could find a citation, maybe Greg can help me, when the monks were criticized for not being friendly. And the people said, Well, they don't smile or say hello when they pass us on the streets. And the Buddha says, is that true? Do you do that? And they say, well, we're concentrating.

[19:53]

And they say, well, when someone walks by, you say good morning. So I don't think that's gotten through the airwaves as much as it needs to, that we need to be socially appropriate, which means welcoming and friendly and kind, the way you would be in your home or your community. This is your community. You make it the way it feels, and we make it the way it feels, and I really want to encourage all of us to look for that space in ourselves that can welcome the stranger. It's a very famous Christian saying, welcome the stranger. There's no strangers if you welcome people. I really encourage that practice. May I say something quickly? There was a fellow here yesterday that asked about... talked about and a lot of people have said this to me that like uh colored folks will come through zen centers and then they don't stay that is one of the things that is so not culturally um um recognizable in colored communities it's it is very very if they don't have any information it's very very jarring because you could get killed

[21:02]

Those kinds of signals of not being able to check, am I okay? So if I drive alone, not even alone, if I just drive, and I go into towns that are predominantly white, there are these moments where I'm like, where am I? Okay, we're good. There's a South Asian man that's working in the 7-Eleven. Versus like... Well, I think I'm going to get some gas someplace else. So it is the Zen culture is very, very hard in terms of cultural welcoming. Yeah, and it's not this idea that you have to be super friendly or like, hello, how are you doing that? I just want to acknowledge that you are in my consciousness and then go back to what you're doing. But it's like what I think is when someone's in... an area of my world, I get to say hello, and I'm like, okay, that's it, my life.

[22:05]

But it's like a gift. Like a flower. But I see hands. I'm not calling you. How about it? I'm Lauren. Yeah, and I... I also feel my heart racing a little. And one of the first thoughts that came to mind, and I think more will continue to come. I know for myself, right this moment, I think the last few days, honestly, I think I've also been kind of noticing a bit of a shutdown to guests. You know, so for me, it was kind of like, well, I don't know you, so you must be a guest, in which case, like, I'm just going to keep going on my way. You know, where it's like, I saw someone this morning that I recognized from a picture because I had an email with her, so I knew she was a student.

[23:09]

You know, so I was like, hi, welcome. You know, there was this point of interaction where I knew she was a student, which now I'm just, as you were asking, I'm like, at least, like, I'm noticing a business that friends me, right? That's all that I kind of like. burnt out, she's hot, she's pretty grumpy most of the time right now. And, like, I have not so much bandwidth to go way out of my way. Not that it's way out of my way, but it's enough to have to, like, look a stranger in the eyes and say, hi, how are you? Sometimes even that feels a little much. But somehow for students maybe I still, because, like, feeling like we're all in this together because we're working hard and it's hot and it's hot and I'm tired and all of that. Tell us what you really feel. Yeah. So that is, I think, one part, just one part of what I think that, you know, with the Tassel Heart experience that it is, like you said, it's quite distinct from the guest and the student experience here.

[24:18]

You know, it's very different from Green Gulch because smaller, you know, it's just different. Mm-hmm. So it's, I think, a little easier to be like, oh, I don't know that person, their guest. I usually am able to be super friendly or at least smile. And I know that we talk about that a lot as a community, like how much just a smile and acknowledgement goes for the guests who are here having, hopefully, a good experience. They've come for something that our participation is helpful. Can I mention one? I remembered one of the agreements that I forgot that just came to mind when you said that because there's something called listen to the impact, not your intention. So we all are well-intended. I actually believe that. It's not my intention to be routine, but the impact on you, I need to hear. And I think we all did hear that. And so that's the thing we really need to hear because...

[25:20]

It's uncomfortable to know that you're hurting people. I don't think anyone... I guarantee you no one wants to hurt you. I actually believe that. And we have. I share responsibility. So somehow I think we really want to hear people's experience of us. And then we can decide. Each of us gets to decide, knowing that I don't mean to be that way. But still, there's an impact. And that's one of these agreements that we talked about in how to understand these conversations. Like, well, I didn't mean to do that. But yeah, we know you didn't mean it. But still, it had an impact. She still didn't stop in that town to get gas. It didn't look friendly or welcoming. Heather. So, you know, Heather, when I saw you, I was like, oh, there's a woman in color. She must be your angel. She'd go say hi because she's surrounded by white people. I never got around to say hi.

[26:21]

I'm Contenzo, and I'm always busy running around, but I did notice you, and I thought I should really go say hello. I don't do that for any other guest out of my way, but that's really what showed up for me. It was like, oh, I should really say hello because she's a person of color, and she might be feeling uncomfortable. But I never got around to it, so I'm sorry. I think that sort of happens sometimes, you know. What Laura is saying, too, is it is a very distinct guest and student. But, yeah, when I saw you, that's what me to leave. Laura was just like, oh, she didn't make me feel uncomfortable. So I'm sorry that I added to that discomfort. She's who is not mine. Well, I figured I just said that. I did drive her. I figured that she was here for the workshop. And I'll take it. And I'll take it. I have a similar response of being aware that people of color, women of color, maybe because more women of color,

[27:43]

You know, if you have often said, you know, if they have felt them well and they've discussed that publicly and privately, you know, is that an appropriate response to keep that in your mind? And then, you know, when you see, you know, a person of color, it's extra important that I acknowledge that I'm happy they're here. Well, for me, I make it a point when I see a person of color, you know, face the majority white community to go talk to them. Because I know they're feeling the same way that I'm feeling. It's just like, you know, you're white people, let me not do. So I think me doing that creates a sense of community as a person of color with another person of color. White person and a person of color. I wonder about that. As you were saying that, I was like, oh, because I'm a person of color, you want to... Is that helpful to... I'm an introvert.

[28:47]

I'm an introvert. And so I would be weirded out if I got, like, hyper-friendly white person. Like, you know, which is part of why I think, like, colored folks have head nods. It's just, it's just, it's acknowledgement. It doesn't have to be some go out of the way. It's like, you see me. Yeah. Like, I see you, and... that that thing we do yeah it's it isn't like hey so glad you're here yeah we really yeah i i are you you know are you good like yeah no right that's a little on the other side is then she she feels she might feel ignored so it's like no no i'm so i've got knowledge with with the ice caps now he's always walking by and you're like I'm really exaggerating, so you guys can be like, if you understand, but it's just looking at me.

[29:48]

I see most of the students like this, and I'm like, okay, I don't exist. I'm not here. But side glances, on the other hand. Oh, yeah. So I'm not going to, we're sort of dead on, I'm not going to frontally acknowledge you. But I want to look at you because you're peculiar here. I can try to figure you out. And we see that and feel that. Like, that's really... So it is better to just look at people and, like, acknowledge them a little, smile. You know, we don't have to hug or... Oh, no. Yeah, I just think, you know, when people are in any kind of, like, I think just... talking about this in your session, right? The feeling of being like in another, in a predominantly other space. Oh, yeah. So just everyone, and it may be rare that that's true for you, but if you could imagine and just consider what you might like.

[30:53]

Yeah, I was telling Angel that I ran out of money and I was driving through Richmond. Some of you don't know what Richmond is, but it's a predominantly black neighborhood in East Bay. And I thought, oh, I better go to Berkeley. I thought that. And I thought, oh, no, you're not. So I went to Wells Fargo Bank in Richmond. I get that. Thank you. Yeah. And my heart started to pound. And I just saw African-American, well, I saw black people. I don't know if they're from Africa or not. It's one word. I saw black people. And I parked my car, and I opened the door, and there were lots of black people inside the bank. And that was an unusual experience right there. I don't live in a neighborhood where that's common for me. And that's already weird. Do you notice how often you go into places where there are just white people? Mm-hmm. So anyway, and I was going to have the ATM machine. My heart was pounding very hard, and there were three men leaning on the machine talking, and I really wanted to run away.

[31:58]

And one of them turned to me, and he smiled, and then he said, did you want to use the machine? I'm like, no. You want the truth? Anyway. You're talking to me. You're talking to me. I said, yes, I do. And so they parted and I walked in and I used the machine and it was an altered state because I was so aware of what this is what it's like. Get real, you know. Look at what it's like to be in a predominant culture which doesn't acknowledge you, doesn't let you feel welcome, doesn't make you... And yet they did. They were much more... I go to Wells Fargo Bank in Mel Valley, no one says hello. You know, it's like... So it was a really good thing to do. I highly recommend that you check it out. What is it like? What must I feel like to get those lack of greeting or lack of acknowledgement? It's painful. It is frightening.

[33:00]

So my name is Edward. Thank you, Edward. And I don't know. I have kind of a complex question or maybe a comment on the question. I guess the first thing that stood out for me was I was listening to a lecture or a talk talk that you were giving. Angel Kid I don't really know what it was about I sort of only saw half of it but there were some questions and responses somebody said they were sort of looking for affirmation that I think it was a white man asking a question about sort of asking for affirmation about the legitimacy of working on oneself for social change, and you kind of affirmed that. And you said, kind of in passing, he was like, oh, I love you.

[34:02]

And you said, I love you too. And it was like this really, really profound moment. I'm sure you can remember it. And yeah, I just want to say that because that stuck with me. Like I really, you know, sometimes when I'm like fiddling these moth beads, I was like, I love you too. I love you too. Not to you personally, but just that. Yeah. Just, yeah, I don't know, as a point to return to, like, to, um, even, you know, especially when I'm frustrated with people. So anyways, I wanted to share that. And then the other thing is, um, I'm curious maybe if you could, if you could speak to, um, So yesterday, you mentioned the importance of studying our history, getting those white people in America to really familiarize ourselves with the horror of the karmic legacy that we're part of.

[35:14]

And I guess I'm curious like what that entails, because part of that is, you know, we're a Buddhist community. And so imagine part of that is familiarizing ourselves with our Buddhists and, you know, being in the Bay Area and all of the dynamics of, you know, gentrification is kind of like the big thing in this area. So part of it seems like we have to be familiarizing ourselves with what it means to be a Buddhist the significance of San Francisco Zen Center in the Buddhist American context, you know, and our relationship with, you know, the other Buddhist communities. And it seems like that's necessarily, that necessarily won't involve reflective inquiry and, you know, not simply just meditating more and, you know, studying things, certainly like in terms of the race history of America.

[36:21]

And so I wonder, like, I know that there's rumors about maybe slowly developing a basic Buddhism curriculum for San Francisco Sound Center. And, yeah, I guess I feel like I don't understand why it's so, so worrisome to develop a curriculum. Because I know historically, I've talked to different Dharma teachers, like they've felt tremendous dismissal and pushback against the idea of a curriculum and sort of folding reflective inquiry into our practice for decades. And so most of that has to do with Buddhists wanting to study philosophy and things like that. But it seems like... Yeah, I'm just curious, like, where are we in that process?

[37:22]

And if you see that as others? Well, I'm on the committee. Yeah. So it's more than a rumor. We are actually in thoughts about curriculum. We're bringing in, like, Gil Fonsdale and, you know, some of these folks in Charlotte Corning. They've all done a lot of universities. Gilston, Stanford. And we have a lot of folks who've gone off to the university. And they're so... It's so... wonderful to have these little encyclopedias running around that can tell us where that quote came from and who said that and what, you know, what is that lineage thing that we keep chanting every morning? Why are we chanting? What's the point of that? So I think it's a, I think as I've studied more and more and more, there's just this enormous wonderful realm of things that have poured into what we call Buddhism from all cultures and peoples and time and you know, insight and poetry and art, it's just amazingly beautiful. And the more I see and more I learn, the more beautiful it's getting.

[38:27]

And I'm just hoping that other people will find the inspiration from that study. Not everyone will. Some people study by farming or by making shoes or, you know, all kinds of things. And those are, we do a lot of craft, artisan work already. We're getting good at farming. We're getting good at bread making. We're getting good at various things. So that shouldn't go away. But also, for those who would like to use their intellect, it's highly recommended. And, you know, the teachers that came to America were trained, universally trained. So they have that body of exposure. Not professorship, but... I just have a question. I just have a question, too. Yeah, okay. I just have a question, too. Yeah, okay. What's that? Oh, uh... You know, I just wonder, because I know that, like, there's a farm apprenticeship program, and there's... you know, all these retreats were integrating yoga and maybe even culinary arts and people like that. You know, I mean, the farm apprenticeship program is maybe a great example of, like, there's institutional resources being put towards cultivating that kind of, those ways of knowing and expressing the Dharma.

[39:38]

But, like, why don't we have, like, why don't we dedicate, like, you know, a few rooms and here and there to like resident scholars. Oh yeah. You know what I mean? Like we have, it seems like there's no resident scholar program, you know? Um, so I just, yes. You're affirming it. You like the idea. I love the idea. There's so much, like, I talk to so many people my age or older who are like just rearing to like integrate all the socio-historical knowledge that they have. all this critical theory and you know and and practice and there's like like all it would take is just a few like just a desk you know or like an internet connection and like a few hours here and there and we could do so much to like you know we're working on putting a structure together and giving time to people and offering as many of the teachers that are out there to come and help us with that very thing hopefully in the next few years we'll have something that you all get to know about

[40:43]

I see you from my seat, but I'd like to get the conversation back to race and stuff. I just want to say it briefly. We have a curriculum now, and if you signed it, did you sign the sign-up sheet? What curriculum? Did you sign the sign-up sheet? For this class. Yeah. You're getting credit for this class. This is part of the curriculum. Yay! It is key for... it is about race that's why I brought it up because it's so important to study our history and like if it's not you know some people will take the time on a free time to go to the library read race matters or you know any number of our books but like it's that's what I'm saying it's like it's not it will be a cricket okay yeah absolutely and that's a module it's already out and it will not fall Yeah, thank you. Thank you for clarifying the question. So, you asked your link.

[41:49]

Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. Sorry. I just put it up. Go ahead. Yesterday I was having lunch and a quick lunch. And I was sitting there and I noticed these three black women coming into the dining room. And I sat there and I was like, there are four of us in here. Four of us in here. Such a phenomenon. And the reason why I didn't jump up and go, hey, welcome. I wanted to feel that. I wanted to imbibe that. And then when things kind of cleared, I went up to Angel and I said, it's great to have you here. Something like that. But I want to say I've been here during the summer. I haven't done, I guess, I haven't stayed here. But I have been here for, I know, three summers. And, you know, I've gotten lots of support and welcome from the community.

[43:00]

from Greg and from Leslie and from people that I eat with. You know, I'm also a total introvert, and so sometimes I'm not even looking to, and I'm not really expecting anyone to come up to me and go, like, oh, I'm so glad to have you here and all of that jazz. And you'll be just fine. That's right. I do. I just feel that because I'm fine. So you asked, I think, a really provocative question at the beginning. You said, what's it like to be here? Tell us about things that happen here. And, you know, I've lived here for two years continuously, and that's different than how somebody feels when they come in and, you know, what's it like for a day or a week. And what makes it really hard for me to talk about that in public is that I live with all the people here.

[44:04]

Anything that happens to me, somebody else did. That's my interpretation. And when I go out of this room, we all still live with each other. It's hard bringing that stuff in PD, bringing it up in PD, because the teacher knows those people. This is not having any kind of outside... kind of arbitrary presence is very hard. And then along with that, you know, we were talking about intersectionality yesterday. What's so hard for me, so I have things where I think, gee, that is inappropriate. I cannot believe you did that, right? And I don't know, is it because I'm... brown? Is it because I'm a woman? Is it because I'm small? Is it because I'm not... I wasn't born in this country? You know, what was it? Maybe it's all of those things. Maybe it's because I'm an ass and that's why they're treating me like this, right?

[45:09]

And so that uncertainty is a huge barrier to my sake, talking about, gee, you know, I think that is... not okay or when i bring that up with somebody else they're like well you know you know um and what really gives me pause sometimes you know when i see things that i think are inappropriate is um the question that comes to my mind is gee would you behave that way with somebody else like i've never seen you talking to anybody else that way but you felt like it was okay to talk to me like this right And then that makes me wonder, is there something beyond I'm just an ass going on? And what I'm noticing is because after two years, you know, you get to be crewhead, and then, you know, maybe there's stuff beyond crewhead. So going into having more power, you know, I don't... What I notice is...

[46:14]

people don't seem to respect, not all people, some people do, but there are people who don't seem to respect the role, the position. It's not me, you don't need to respect me, but you respect the role. I'm this screw head, therefore, if I ask you to do this, if I make this correction, you say hi, right? When you walk away, when you ignore me, I start wondering what is going on here? I have a suggestion. I really don't think we're at the, we've always been at the stage, but honestly, if there's intention and effort for navigating race in this community and other communities, there should be an outside person of color that people of color can talk to. I just like, I honestly, I swear to, Jesus, I pray for the people of color in Dharma communities that are like a little handful, like one pinky or, you know, pinky.

[47:22]

I'm like, oh, there's like three of them. And I just, it's hard. And I'm looking at you, Greg, because you're in leadership. It's hard. And they don't have, white folks are often convinced that they can monitor themselves around their own stuff. And especially when there's positional power, and that's pretty much always the case, the positional power gets conflated with the racial dynamics, and it's hard for white folks to peel apart the two of them so that the perception or behaviors is like, no, I'm doing this because of my role. And I'm like, no, I don't know about that. I don't know about that. If you didn't have that positional power, if you would still behave in that way towards me. And so there is something that really is, I think, important if folks are going to feel the same way around, you know, women. If it was like all men in the leadership and women were expected to only deal with men in terms of confronting what was up, that would be a no problem.

[48:31]

So Angel, if we had a person like that, Like if you were going to do that, somebody... No, no, no. She didn't call her there. She didn't call her there. That's all. That's all. What would... How would that work? People of color here would know that there was this person who didn't live here. That's fair. Some color maybe came and met everybody. Like you're doing now at the beginning of the summer. And there was some way to contact them so they could call... You just get a reality check. And then just that. Well, then you could have like somebody, it would need to be somebody that has sufficient power themselves. Right. And entitlement and comfort. So the leaders would have to be asking this person to do that and to let us know if you see a problem. Yeah. Are you saying yes? No, I'm not saying yes. Is there a person with power in FSCC?

[49:32]

I have no idea. Well, Eli has some, but he's pretty young. Brilliant. Yeah, brilliant. I mean, yeah, the point is that it's, if the person themselves, this is cloud power. She says, this is cloud power. I'm going to turn that recorder off. I mean, that's right, right? So, if, yeah, if there's no point of reflection that's not outside of the, It's like you're dealing with your blind spot, right? And so no one can see. It's like driving a car and you don't have that rearview mirror. You just can't see. And you're crippled. And I think that the impulse is like we're a community and we can do this and we really need to recognize that. There are huge blind spots, and they're collective blind spots. And so the impulse is to make things about Zen, or that's how we do that here. And it's like, yeah, you do it here because you're all white. Not because that's Zen, but because it's all white.

[50:34]

And that's how white folks want to do this particular thing, because you go to another community, it's not the same. And so just having that point of reflection, I think it's going to be very important. Somebody's got their hand, so I've got you. No, I'm little. Yeah, no, I've got you. There was someone up here. So that's my suggestion. And I know I would just want to acknowledge that that is really a challenge, and especially with power. I deal with intersectionality, like being queer has made things very different for me. So I've never had any particular deference to men. And so I have a kind of personal sense of entitlement that makes me rogue, right? And I think the only way I've survived in many ways is that my personal sense of entitlement has created some space around me that I think had I stayed firmly inside of an institution in this way, it would not have been as... I wouldn't have come out this way, I'll just say.

[51:36]

I'll just say that. because it squeezes you, you know. So I just want to acknowledge that. And the things that you're asking, like maybe you're an asshole, but you should have somebody to check. Yeah, you know, she was just being an asshole. And, you know, I have a student, my senior student does that all the time. She's like, someone said this to me and, you know, said I was being passive aggressive or I was being this or, you know, and she comes to check and she should be able to. But if you're, if only, the only people you can have practice discussion with are white, and, like, that's hard. That's a hard point of, like, it's like, ooh, and now what do I do? There were two people that are... Are you immediately responding? Do you have something for... Attached to Jacqueline, Jess. Yeah. Sorry, what? Attached to Jacqueline's statement. Yeah. Thank you. I am Kaishin. I do like to show myself a deep sheep. Kaishin, would you, for my help, would you be willing to stand?

[52:42]

Yes. Just so that I can hear you? Okay. Thank you. Not because I'm sure. No, just because my, yeah. Very good. So, when I first came, during my interview, to enter into the system, I was asked who I think, if I'm a person of color. Whoa. You know. Never been asked that. The environment that I professionally belong to, that's a legal to ask, so inappropriate. But to have that is an entry question. And so I said, I don't, but people, some people think of me that way. And so that kind of anchor in this community has continued in a way that other minorities at City Center would come up to me and say, how can you be here? You're the only one. Boy, it must be difficult for you to be here for white people to see. And then this one really amazing man, Magalia, said, in order for a person of color to survive here, you have to have a better practice than anybody in the room.

[54:02]

And so I'm shocked by that. And I consider a lot of things why I might feel out of place. You know, regionally, nobody knows my teachers here. You know, the teachers I've had for 10 years before I came here. So it's not attributed to that they don't have relationships with. I don't have the same education as primarily the people who live here. And so that causes language differences, articulation differences. These little differences add up, and they're getting older. So the teachers here talk to me about this issue. They will say, oh, you're the sixth ancestor, which I have to leave. You know, too off the top, too smart, you have to leave. I've been told that I'm a generation too early. I've been told that if... They were me, and this is all within the last year. If they were me, and they were women of color, they wouldn't stay here.

[55:08]

Because the system's not ready for me. So, complications. And so every rise, what is these bigger pictures? If I just stop and listen to it because of a person of color, and that really challenges my dharma. Because I'm so much more than that. And when you start talking to me about that multiple of who I am, And me understand the complications of, you know, how you have to assign certain things for international students, how that's a different category, how there's all these different competing categories around here. And I have to rationalize, but yeah, I have to think wider. I've made a career I communicate with all different levels of people, income, race, geographically. And I'm told about to correct my sentence. I'm told to be a warrior. And the people of color tell me I'm a warrior just being here.

[56:12]

And so when I think of these, like not being seen, it's almost like it's dangerous to get to see me because you will love me. You will love me and you will see how strong my practice is. But as long as all these different things are going on, and I need to hold that every day. Now I don't get too much I need to give you. I don't. And I love you. And I have to go back and find out, because we're studying ancestors. Well, why am I studying these Asian, these Chinese ancestors, these Japanese ancestors who are my ancestors? And so because you were looking at me as a person of color, I had to look at me as a person of color, because I've had all white privileges. And I came in here with that. And I think I've disappointed a lot of people because I carry myself with pride. I know my intelligence. I know my practice. And I'm not going to be one of those, you know, somebody who comes in and entertains you with all this foreign language or these cute foreign... I don't do that.

[57:17]

I'm not that foreign. And the continuing thing I hear is, why do you stay? This is one of the best... one of the two best places in America to stay on Zen. I would never be a Zen-do like that. So I stay for the Zen-do. And I stay because the dog gets us to where he practices in the mountains. But, you know, we are, I think on a daily basis, we're really, all of our ancient karma is right there. I think it's right there and we don't know what to do with it. You don't know what to do with me. I don't know what to do with you. I can't tell, you know, Jacqueline said she's an ex. And I am an arrogant. I am just arrogant. I heard these stories in every room, taught it internationally. And here I am sitting in a room knowing that my two practices are known.

[58:18]

And so to speak up, I feel like I'm challenging my practice. I'm challenging my relationship with power in the room. And when I came, I said, I was going to stay quiet. So I said, well, why don't you stay quiet? Because this room might be strong. And this room might be willing to go out there. And we're all back in the same nest. So I'm lonely. The clarity is good. But how do we carry that in our heart? I don't know. I don't know. I think it's bigger than all of us. So maybe I'm going to speak to a tribute. And you're going to speak to a tribute. I just wanted to appreciate your coming here and the writing of your books and all of the work that you've done to show this, the transforming edition of this.

[59:29]

I found it personally very inspiring and in my time at Bungo Chin here, it's been kind of the intrigue, both the intrigue and the life of a companion. you know, for a lot of our conversations, so... Yeah, I think it's incredible. It's incredible to have done that, and I'm very grateful when I think I speak for a lot of people who say so to you. I feel like no one quite... maybe start this in the meeting yet. Yeah, we have a study group about what we're about in the fall. We were reading a book and trying to work through it, and there was this moment where I began to realize it seemed like there was something in the value system. There was a value system of white supremacy, of white privilege, of capitalism, of patriarchy, of sexism, of racism, and that until I got side of that, until I could be able to serve what are the actual concepts at work, that I could try to alter my behavior on a day-to-day level, but that would always be kind of...

[60:40]

that it might not be enough. Right. But if I could actually understand what the principles that I was relying on when I responded, that I could do when I should go work, and then we could begin to, as a, I guess, individually, and then in small groups, and then in a society, a society really began to look at how is this going about? So I was wondering, we have a cultural, where as well, specifically, you want to talk to us directly. And we've been having this question of how do we, like, what do we do? What are we studying? Like, how do we deconstruct this? How do we look at our profession? I think a lot of people are hungry for it, but there's this question of, like, what do we do? And especially here when we're open about this training, you know? There's not much work that, you know, we want to be able to do it. We have to end our time here together, but I'm happy to entertain the question offline.

[61:48]

But the values are love and justice and that they are not two. They're not separate. And if we can live into that fundamentally as a value, then it all unfolds. And I think there's an insularity that our communities have to shift around in terms of study. And, you know, we're not the first communities to be confronting that raises a challenge. And so there's many resources and things. So I think the what to do question is getting a little bit old. And I hope that, you know, we can just get on with curriculums and just get at it. I do. Yeah, about study and self-reflection, I think that we're all together, embedded in race, and there's trauma and common theft, and it's

[63:06]

and what power is, and how it's held, can be very complex. And pain, what to do with the pain, and how to hold that community in the embeddedness that we are sharing. And what comes up for me is, and it may be, more powerfully gendered as a question I'm not sure but how to hold the blame and the shade of our bodies and our psychic lives together and heal in that feels like it's a way to go you know and You have the heart and the skillfulness to be able to meet each other in that way.

[64:09]

I would replace hard with uncomfortable and unfamiliar. That's why the title of the book is Radical Dharma. We have what we need in this practice. We do. We do. The teachings are there. Many of the practices are there. Of course we have to augment it because we're in modern society with things like history of our particular context and that kind of thing. But we do have it. The question is whether or not the power is willing to make the Dharma radical, meaning to look at the whole thing and not just parts of the thing, not the parts of the thing that are convenient, not the parts of the thing that... affirm my Japanophilia, like not the parts of the thing that are just, you know, just personal because I can't turn out and look at the systems.

[65:12]

The Dharma has to be rattled. We have to turn the lens on the whole shebang. And I think inside of that, all the things that you talk about, how do we hold blame and shame? I didn't go someplace else. I learned this all in here. I just want to affirm that. Like I learned... What is in radical Dharma? Not race history, but the heart to confront, the heart to have inquiry, to lean in, to keep digging, to not accept what my own teacher said and say, no, no, I feel something different and I have to look further and further. That came from my practice. I would have never done that outside of Zen practice, right? And so... It's here. We have it. The question is, will we take the whole thing? Will we look at the whole truth, the complete, the radical, rather than just what serves us, just what our privilege allows us to end at certain points and say, I'm going to coordinate off here.

[66:16]

So can we reel that back and say... Yeah, I get to only like sit and not deal with philosophy and the history and understand because I'm privileged to be able to do that and get away with it. But you would never do that in other people's culture. You would never do that. You would say like, if I'm going to take on this culture, I'm going to learn something about it. But what privilege to say, like, I'm not going to learn the philosophy and history of something that I'm taking on. You can have both. You can have both the essence and the heart and love the heart of it and also say, this came from somewhere. And I'm going to acknowledge that by learning something of it. I don't have to become an expert, but I'm going to learn something of it just to honor it. So that is really up to us. And I think the examination of, like, how privilege has entitled people to not... do the things that I think we know in our true north is the right thing to do, right? And so we just have to get there. We have to be willing to, like, when someone says, like, no, no, no, we don't do that, so why not?

[67:20]

And why not that? And why not that? Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge. and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[67:45]

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