Today is the truth. It would be a long time before Sashen is over. Maybe an hour and a half. Anyway... I... I appreciated Leslie's tribute to me yesterday and today. It was funny. It was today. And Leslie's always been very forthright with me. So that's one reason why we've been able to get along pretty well. But she always pointed out things to me, you know, like, you know, what you said in there wasn't really, and what you said in that meeting wasn't really right or true or you got the wrong story or something like that.

[01:15]

And so... I know that she's always been honest with me and that it's a big help. Well, we've been through quite a lot together over a long period of time. I think that she's the one person who has been the most stable

[02:20]

and a person at Tassajara for such a long time. And the wonderful thing is her ability to take any position. She'd be the tanto. She'd be the director. She'd be the treasurer. She'll be driving people over the road. work in the kitchen if she has to, do whatever needs to be done, and not in a hierarchical order. So this flexibility has really been a good example, I think, for everyone. Flexibility and I never really heard her complain about anything.

[03:26]

So, my tribute to you. As, you know, every day something new comes up and there are new things to explore and talk about. And it's really hard to take care of all that. There are things that I think people would like to have addressed and also insights that I see from talking to people. One subject I think that is of interest to people is what we call racism. I don't know if I call it racism. Maybe.

[04:30]

I don't know if that's the right name. As a matter of fact, I don't like the word at all. But I think of it more as levels of power and levels of distinction. We use labels, and then the labels create some kind of meaning. But if we don't use labels, it makes it easier to actually look at what the problems are. As soon as we use a label, it creates a problem. Then we start talking about the label instead of the thing in itself.

[05:33]

There's a name for this in Buddhism. I'm trying to think of what it is. It's signlessness. Signlessness is one of the freedoms in Buddhism. Signlessness means not being caught by signs. A sign is racism. A sign is a word or a designation that stands for something. The wish list, the sign list. It's seeing, you know, as soon as we name something, it's very convenient to name things and we need to do that.

[06:40]

on a dualistic level, but when we assign names to things, then we get caught by thinking that the thing is the same as the sign. And then we conveniently don't have to think or deal with the thing anymore. We can just deal with the sign. And we have these great arguments over signs. and we never get to the real meaning of things. Or it keeps us from getting to the real meaning of things. So endless arguments, endless speculations. So when we use the word racism, it stops us from actually dealing with the real problem. And And we wonder, like, how come we never solve this problem?

[07:47]

As much as we want to solve this problem, how come we never solve this problem? How come we never can really get anywhere, really, with this problem, even though we have these seminars and these meetings and talking? Why do we never get anywhere? Well, I don't know if we can ever get anywhere. And I don't know if I want to continue this particular subject unless you want me to. I have some my own signs, my own ideas about why we never get anywhere. So I'll share some of those ideas with you. When we say we, who is we to begin with?

[09:01]

There's this understanding that people have that Zen Center is made up of white Anglo-Saxon middle class people. And I think that there's some truth to that, but that's not, I don't think that that's another signature, another sign. I don't think that that's that's the population of Zen Center. I think that if we started looking at everyone's background in Zen Center, every single person, and every single person told a story about what their background of their family's life was, or where they came from, and the history of their family's

[10:19]

you'd find such a varied story, varied stories that would be totally surprising to everyone. I think there are people from wealthy backgrounds, people from middle-class backgrounds, people from poor backgrounds. There are people who seem to be from the white race, There's people that seem to be from Asian races or dark races and so forth. But those are just obvious. The subtle makeup of people's backgrounds is largely undiscernible. You know, we know that there's only one race, and that's the human race.

[11:23]

And then there are variants of that one race. To me, the most interesting thing with people is the variety of racial characteristics of everyone. Whenever I look at somebody, whenever I meet somebody, I don't care who it is, I look at people all the time. Anybody I look at, I always try to figure out what racial characteristics or what racial variant characteristics this person has. That's the most interesting thing about a person to me. Every single person I meet, I think about that. And I keep looking into their backgrounds. I remember one time when I was in my 20s and I was experimenting with marijuana and stuff like that.

[12:34]

We used to do all kinds of things like smoke, I mean like sniff nasalator and stuff like that. One of the things we did was sniff ether. and I was with my friends. And when you sniff ether, it's like, you go . And then there's this big hammer that goes boom, boom, boom in your head. And then you come down. And when you come down, that's the high. And when I would come down, I looked at people And I'm looking at my one friend and I can see in his face the whole history going back generations and generations of grandfathers and grandmothers and aunts and uncles. Like the whole makeup of how this person came to be this person and how this person was made up of all these...

[13:44]

contributions from way, way back there. The most interesting thing I ever saw. And having seen that, I can still do that. Maybe not as clearly, but I can still see that, people. And I always look, see, well, what... Sometimes I look at the male and the female side, and I think, this woman, what is the male side of this woman's makeup going back generations? Or if I see a man, what is the female side of this person's makeup going back generations? So, the variety, to me, the variety of... characteristics of people is the most interesting thing.

[14:48]

And when I see people from different countries and meet people from different backgrounds that are so distant from my own, it's always the most interesting thing. I don't know why we are afraid of that. I think what we should be doing is celebrating the variety celebrating the variety of differences. Well, that's one aspect. That's my personal aspect, my personal feeling. One of the reasons I think that we never get anywhere in amalgamating or accepting the differences is because there are levels of power in society.

[15:53]

And it seems like white people, so to speak, have a certain power through education and knowledge and wealth. And so this is the societal level that has the most clout, the most power. And in order for the Asian and darker races, or aspects of race, to become part of, share that power, it's very difficult. So when we look at an individual, this power elite says, well, you can be part of our culture.

[17:04]

Now if you look at that, you can be part of our culture, it means that our culture is superior to your culture. And it's okay for you who are inferior to be part of our superior culture. So that means if I am down here and the superior culture is up there, that makes me feel like a lesser value. Because I have to come up to your culture. You can come up as an individual, but your race or your people who are part of your racial makeup can't do that.

[18:11]

But you can do that. So in order for you to come to this fairly so-called superior level, you have to leave behind your own racial base. You have to be somewhat disloyal, maybe feeling disloyal, to your racial base in order to be accepted into the so-called higher ranks. So who wants to do that? It means I'm always inferior anyway. Because since you don't accept my background and you only accept me, it's not, there's something untrue about it.

[19:17]

You know, I've been dealing with Japanese Sōdōshū for many, many years. And for the Sōdōshū to accept us as equals is almost impossible. almost impossible, because the soto shu makes overtures to us for acceptance. And it looks like it's really going somewhere. But they always take the superior position, and we're in the inferior position, because they're accepting us. So being in the inferior position means that we have to do what they say, even though they say we don't. They say, no, we don't want to control you.

[20:22]

We don't want to do that. But they can't help it because they feel they're in the superior position, unconsciously, consciously or unconsciously. So we get to a certain point where it looks like we're accepted by them as equals, but they always throw something in the way because we will never be Japanese. That's the last holdout. As much as they will accept it, we're not Japanese. So there's that little thing that you know, the little tail that makes it never, it'll never work, which is okay because we don't really need to be Japanese, so it doesn't, we don't feel inferior because we don't need that. If we needed it, we would feel inferior. Even if, you know, so there's always this, um,

[21:31]

a feeling of yes, but. This thing is going to let us know it. This feeling of yes, but. it's always a problem. Even though, you know, we say, well, we don't feel racist. We don't feel, and I don't like to use that word, we feel accepting and inclusive of people, you know. And it's true that mostly people in Zen Center feel inclusive of people Other, not other, but what other?

[22:38]

Who is it that's feeling, who is it that's been accepting of other? Of everyone, except that it never works, rarely works. I had this thought, but it keeps being elusive. It's always that someone has to come up. We never can go down. And if we go down, that means that we lose the feeling of superiority.

[23:59]

So then the question is, well, is your thing better than ours? Whose thing is the best? So that creates a problem. I'll give you an example. I have had a student, a black student, a woman, who had been my student for 30 years. And I learned from her an awful lot. When I first saw her, I thought, this is a very powerful person. And she was always a very powerful person.

[25:12]

And hating the whites, but making effort, she wanted to study then. For 10 years, she didn't know anybody's name. because all white people look the same. Very interesting. And she just had all these ideas about people, but it was all fantasy. And we were very close. We really loved each other, and we still do. But as much as she would try to get close, she couldn't do it. Because what's so much better about your stuff than our stuff? If I become like a white person, if I join your white society,

[26:17]

I'm only doing it to gain some prestige or something, because actually my race is more interesting and enjoyable than the white race. But you think that your race is the one that everyone should look up to. White people are so stiff, they can't jump, right? Who wants to associate with white people because they're so stiff and intellectual? There's no joy there. True. So as much as she tried to make that effort, make that leap, it was impossible, also she felt

[27:20]

that to leave her black race and join the white race was to betray her roots. It's a betrayal. Like, I'm up here with the whites, and you guys are still down there. So it's coming up, coming up. We all think that coming up is a good idea, but I'm not sure that coming up is a good idea. I mean, what's really so good about the white race, you know, that people should want to come up to it? It's a big problem. And to be the token black in a white society, you're just doing this because you need a black person in order to show off.

[28:31]

I'm not going to be your token black person that you're going to show off. See, look, we have a black person in our saga. But then I say, well, someone has to be the token. Someone has to have the guts to do that so that other people will feel okay too. But this thing runs very deep. So big emotional problems. But I think we should just celebrate everybody's diversity so that we're all on the same level. It's not like people have to come up to the white society or whites have to come down to black society.

[29:39]

Just be on a horizontal level. I know that's what we like and hard to do. just celebrate diversity so that we can really enjoy it. How many people who come from so-called minorities are able to actually express themselves the way that they feel comfortable? Not so many. But I do think that in Zen Center, people make an effort.

[30:41]

The other point is, the point that I really want to make is that there's also reverse racism. I don't want to use that word, but I will. because I hate you white guys. That's racism. In reverse. And this person, this black student of mine said, you know, it's your problem to solve. Your problem to solve. But it's not. It's everybody's problem to solve. It's like not taking responsibility. Even though you're in the low position, someone else is in the high position, and we think, well, the person in the high position, that's their problem to solve. But even though you're in the bottom position, it's your problem to solve as well.

[31:51]

Unless both sides or both constituents make the same effort, it won't work. So the person who feels that they're locked out because of race has to make the same effort as the person who is in the dominant position. Otherwise it can't work. Everybody has to lay down their resentments. It's so difficult. Lay down their resentments, lay down their prejudices, lay down their ideas, their fears. And just participate together.

[32:58]

and not accuse each other of something, and not project on each other. Try to see everything just clearly. Richard. What made me think of it? Well, what brought it to mind, I think about it a lot, but what brought it to mind was when I was giving my talk the other day and I said, I was talking about Japanese cab drivers looking like farmers and

[34:04]

I have to say that I think Japanese farmers are the salt of the earth. No farmer in the world can come up to the Japanese farmer. True. But Japanese farmers also drive taxis on the side to supplement their income. Just because they're good farmers doesn't make them wealthy. So I talked about Japanese farmers as taxi driver. The taxi drivers all look like Japanese farmers because, to me, they did. I couldn't tell one apart from the other because I didn't know them. But I wasn't talking about making a point about Japanese taxi drivers. I was making a point about my confusion. So, but I think it could have been taken as a racial slur or something, but I did not mean it that way at all.

[35:14]

So that kind of brought it up for me. But also, it's been something that's going on that other people have been talking about in a different way. lately. So both of those things coming together. Taiki? I want to sort of maybe add in a couple words to the discussion. I think it's useful to talk about the word privilege. Yeah, privilege. the way you talk about it embrace the white privilege. White have other opportunities for housing employment and so on and you know, The numbers are shocking when you look at education level, or how much is spent on students, or how much groceries cost in the neighborhood.

[36:24]

These are all campus-wide privilege. So it's interesting. We talked about people from home. And the other word, I think, in the session, I put the word oppression. And I think that racism usually is the word that I know it's kind of an oppressive type of relationship. And I think that when you were talking about people of color feeling like joining white society made them traitors, it's interesting to think about what it might mean to be a traitor for white privilege. What it might mean for us to try to look at our privilege without it. Is there a way that I can live where I'm not trading off of my wife's privilege? And I don't think that the prejudice inherent in the reverse situation is necessarily an oppressive relationship.

[37:31]

If there's a person that has the privilege based on their race, and they make decisions based on race, they have a power over somebody who maybe is making decisions based on race and survival mechanism, which is a different, I think a totally different power dynamic. And so I think it's really dangerous to start talking about reverse discrimination around race because it becomes a sort of false refuge for white people to hold on to their privilege. Oh, well, you know, blacks think the same about me as I think about them. It's just different, you know, it's a different color. It's a different problem. Yeah, that can be construed that way. And there are all kinds of variations on that description. But in the way I'm talking about it, I don't think I'm talking about it in that sense.

[38:38]

that I'm talking about it in the sense of, well, I think you know the sense I'm talking about it, by... Yeah, the way, like resentments, basically, and the feeling of oppression and... frustration. I'm not saying that it's not... There's justification for it. So it's just a match to what comes up for people out of frustration and resentment and powerlessness.

[39:51]

And it's part of the reason why it's so difficult to bring these factions together. stands in the way of bringing things together. I agree with the fact that both sides have to work on a solution, but I know a little bit more about, or I studied a little bit more about sexism and racism, and my women friends who confront sexism believe that it's largely a question of males dealing with their male privilege because They deal with sexism all the time. And so it's not a question of whether or not they have to work harder on sexism. So I wonder whether or not there's anything that black people could do differently that would make much of a difference as long as white people continue to want to hold on to white power and white vote.

[40:58]

I don't know. You know, when you're talking about it in a big picture, generality, that's one thing. But when we're talking about it, you know, in this kind of context, I think it's different. Yeah, like in a place like Zen Center where we're actually trying to make some, trying to make some difference. make an effort to make some difference, not just, you know, trying to hold on to power. We're not doing that. We're not... What we're trying to do is find out, trying to understand how to make things come together. But looking at what some of the problems are, the big problems are, and doing it. And to look at it from not just one side.

[42:04]

Because if we say, well, if we minimize the fact that there's all this resentment on the reverse discrimination, if we ignore that, then we're ignoring something that's very powerful. And since we don't like that idea, we tend to not look at it so clearly. And then we go back to think, well, it's all our responsibility. We need to take full responsibility. But everyone has to take full responsibility. It can't work otherwise. Richard?

[43:13]

You have to talk loud so everybody can hear you. And so I overheard these two 12-year-old black boys talking to each other. One saying, I'm just trying to go do my homework. And the other guy saying, I'm paraphrasing. Why are you doing that? That's a white thing to do. When I heard that, I said, oh my God, this is a problem. See it. It's a problem. Yep. Well, anyway, big problem. And we're not going to solve it tonight. I appreciate what everybody said. One more.

[44:25]

Joe. I wanted to say that there's an author whose name is Bell Hooks. She wrote a book called From Marching Center that's a foreign sociologist who also is African American and a Buddhist practitioner and echoes a lot of what he said about in terms of her experience in having to deal with this coming up and loyalty issues and the whole thing. Really well written, thought out piece of work. And the other question I was wondering about was whether this whole idea of coming up and therefore the white society being above all the other lower societies, if you could explain a little bit more about whether or not you're saying that's just kind of part of our storehouse consciousness that we all share this kind of collective idea or I don't really understand

[45:32]

what you're saying by making it that there is the upper white society that we expect them all to come up with. I mean, who, again, it's like, Well, I'll give you an example that's happening right now.

[49:15]

It's called spreading democracy around the world. That means using power to subjugate the world. using false signs, one of which is called democracy, as an excuse to dominate the world and create slave nations. I spent about nine months on the Center for Diversity and Multiculturalism Committee. And it was very interesting to me because there were so many issues in the room.

[50:20]

There were race issues and class issues and sex issues and all sorts of issues. And I find it kind of interesting that when the race gets talked about, all of a sudden, all of a sudden, it actually becomes white and black when you know, we're doing a sort of Asian practice, and the only real minorities we have in this room are Asians, other than text Asians. And so, the one thing I found really interesting as I got more involved with the sport was, you know, there was this whole people of color sangha movement going on. And I thought, well, you know, that's okay, because it's nice for people to you know, be able to practice together. But as I started reading the literature, it's like you had to be a person of color to go. And I thought, well, you know, how wonderful would it be for me to have the experience to be the minority in a practice setting? But there is no opportunity for that unless I go to, I don't know, a Chinese Buddhist place or something like that.

[51:23]

So I'm not really, you know, I sort of agree with you that I don't know what we could do about it, but it seems like, you know, the separate but equal strategy hasn't worked in this country very well for education or helping or anything. And I'm not sure it's a good model for practice. And I think, you know, San Francisco, I mean, I've lived near Katie Street and I've seen a transformation in that neighborhood and been to a lot of diversity meetings around it. And I just, You know, I'm not sure exactly what even the problem is, but when you hear that people say, you know, you've talked many times about people going to State Street and not feeling welcome, and that's been even more so for minorities. And, you know, as a gay person, I experienced that rampantly in the 80s when I went there. It was very cold beyond the, you know, it wasn't welcoming or inviting. And so I'm not really sure

[52:24]

that people are actually willing to look at the root causes of, you know, opening themselves and making practice available to everyone without setting up little practice groups that only reflect you and your specific issue. So, I don't know. Well, the subject of, um, um, Steven? When you're talking about hierarchy, you're talking about hierarchy. And also, the last fact, Peter, before this one, there was some of us, everyone, feeling their dharma position. And when talking in the vertical, there is a hierarchy. There are powers, Mm-hmm.

[53:25]

Mm-hmm. [...] I was wondering about with the leadership. You know, it's leadership kids showing they're interested in anything. And it will make a difference. I think it's true. All of us have to do our part, but what is it for all of us? Each one of us has to do our part. So I think really important. I was wondering along those lines, you know, three parts about how we're going to live together, practice together, and make it real when it's, like, really hard.

[54:43]

I can't go how our neighbors can't do it. I don't see that now. I was wondering if you could say something about that. I can't tell you about what you don't see now. But I agree. The leadership has to show some example. The leadership has to show that they're sincerely interested. And this is an important subject.

[55:49]

then that will open things up more. But I've seen this going on for a long time. And I am not interested in most of the methods that I've seen in the past. I don't say they don't work, but I think there has to be some better. The main thing is understanding. And I'm not sure that people yet on either side understand very well. I really don't know that people on either side understand very well. If you want to look at sides, I don't like to think of it in terms of the sides.

[56:56]

You know, that's another whole thing. It's like we think in terms of your side and my side, this side and that side. And it's the way we think that creates the standoff. It really is the way we think that makes it that way. So our thinking has to change radically just the way we think, the lines of thought, the language we use, this side and that side. There are no sides. Anyway, Let's sit a little bit in zazen before, to end the practice period, to end the sesshin.

[57:52]

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