This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. The only thing Arlene didn't mention is that I have a daughter who is 32 and... is having her first baby. So I'm gonna be a grandmother. I'm very excited. I've been waiting for this. Sort of practicing. So I guess you practice too, so here we are. I'm gonna talk about practicing love and joy as two of the sacred abodes. And as you know there are four divine abodes, love being the first one, compassion, joy, and equanimity.

[01:07]

But today we're going to concentrate on the two, love and joy. Love and joy in the Pali and Sanskrit are metta and mudita. And they offer life-changing opportunities in our practice and the way we engage with other people. The way we treat people, the way we talk to them, write speech, the way we engage in relationships, or even just in our practice while we're alone and the effect that we have on the world just from practicing. These divine abodes were given to us by the Buddha. They're beautiful, they're satisfying, and they can affect all the people around us, our family, our friends, our loved ones, strangers, all beings. The practice of love comes from the heart.

[02:11]

And as we wish for health and well-being, for ourselves, for our families, for our loved ones, strangers, and all beings. We can offer phrases like, may you be safe and protected from inner and outer harm. May you be well. May you be free. Those are some of the phrases that can be used. And of course, there are many that we can make up on our own. to do this practice. I think that one of the most difficult people to do loving practice is ourselves. It's very difficult sometimes to love ourselves. We may be able to love someone else, but we may put ourselves second to those. When I raised my daughter,

[03:16]

A woman friend of mine took me aside and said, you know, every time I see your daughter, she's dressed so nice. You take such good care of her, but you don't seem to be taking good care of yourself. And I had to think about that. Oh, my goodness, I'm caught. So the other day I was looking at my calendar, and I realized that my dog, Sasha, gets groomed more often than I do. So I guess I'm doing it again. I'm caught in a vicious cycle of giving to someone else, being generous, which is a practice, but not loving myself as much as I should. So as we offer these phrases for each one that comes to mind, we experience our own freedom and our own blessings. And as a result, all the beings on the earth And right now we're thinking so much about the swimming and flying beings in the Gulf who are covered with oil, whose lives are in danger.

[04:30]

And even with the efforts of the wild hair people, washing them carefully, taking care of them, it's still so overwhelming to think about the difficulties these beings face. And it breaks my heart. It just breaks my heart when I think about it. And all I can offer is an apology, a prayer of forgiveness for what we've done to these beings. But the same goes for other beings around the world, people who are in war-torn countries, civilians that are hurt and maimed, are also beings that can benefit from our practice of love. I actually believe that if we say these phrases and if we practice love for all beings, that there is an effect that takes place just coming from our heart.

[05:30]

It's a heart practice. So I really believe that it affects those around us and those that are far from us. Now, I did have a little bit of difficulty saying phrases for Bush. That was a challenge. I must admit, I don't mean to offend anybody. But that was a challenge for me. But I did it anyway. Because I know that as I offer blessings to others, I too will be blessed. And that's the important part. I believe that something very powerful happens. for us and others when we offer these phrases. In my own life, I have committed my practice to be protected from racism. I've experienced racism my whole life as a child. I remember my mother fixing me up for Halloween with this ridiculous costume.

[06:35]

She wasn't very creative. She dyed some sweats pink. She got a Bugs Bunny mask, and she put a cotton ball on the back of my pants, and I was a bunny, or a Bugs Bunny, or some bunny. Anyway, I'm walking the long block down to my school, just devastated, not wanting to be seen. I was hiding behind that mask, and I was sweating behind that mask. And when I got to the corner... There were two traffic boys, one on my corner who was supposed to cross me and one on the other corner. And the one on the other corner said, hey, what is it? I guess, you know, they were doing this with everybody that came in costume. You know, what are they? What is it? And the guy that was on my side pulled my mask out and said, oh, it's just a nigger, and let go of the mask. Slammed it in my face. I crossed the street, tears streaming down my face.

[07:36]

And that was the earliest memory I had of that kind of judgment and that kind of treatment. And of course, as I got older and older, there was more and more of that. I could tell you stories. But the blessing is that this practice is here to protect me. May I be safe and protected from inner and outer harm. May I be free. May I be loved. This practice helps me. As Arlene said, at Spirit Rock, I did a lot of work around diversity, the Diversity Council, the people of color retreats and day longs. And I actually originally went to Spirit Rock to practice. That was my purpose, to find a spiritual home. And I got caught up in all of this minutia until I started suffering. And we know all about suffering. I suffered not realizing that I'd given up my own freedom to try to create an environment that was very difficult to do because of the resistance that was there.

[08:46]

So I've learned since then. And again, even though I've been in difficult situations, I now have positioned myself to be safe and cared for. Even though these problems still exist in the world, and they're all around us, they're down the street. There even may be some of it here, I don't know. But we can be free from all of those practices that are unhealthy for us. So... That's about love, to start out with love, and loving and caring for others, and loving and caring for ourselves. The most difficult person to love of all, ourselves. But when we come to joy, the practice of sympathetic and altruistic joy allows us to take pleasure in the opportunities and the...

[09:55]

goodwill of others. We live in a very competitive world. Just the smallest thing can create envy or jealousy in our communities and among us. It could be that someone just has a little bit more of something or shinier hair. I don't know. Something that Someone is a teacher. Someone's not a teacher. Someone's a priest. Someone else is not a priest. Someone has goals and aspirations in that regard. And it seems so far off. But the joy that we can have and share for someone else is so freeing. People acquire things, and that's not the kind of practice that I'm talking about. Gaining more material things, that's not what I'm really thinking about.

[10:57]

But anything that our heart desires, which causes any kind of suffering, keeps us from enjoying the pleasure in other people's successes. So when we think about... You know, the Buddha gave us the Four Noble Truths, and we know that there is suffering. We know that. We know there's a cause to suffering. We know that there's an end to suffering and a path to the end of suffering. So that's part of our practice. That's the foundation of our practice. Again, practicing joy gives that freedom that we really need to love ourselves and care for others. So I mentioned my daughter, who's 32, and she got married in January, January 2nd, and she planned this pregnancy.

[11:59]

She planned to get pregnant in April, and she did. And like I said, I'm thrilled to be a grandmother. But after the wedding, I saw my daughter several times, spoke with her on the phone. You know, we'd have lunch. And one day I realized that I hadn't spoken to my son-in-law. I hadn't even seen him since the wedding. Just didn't dawn on me that, you know, You know, I do have a son-in-law now, and it didn't dawn on me to communicate with him. So I called my daughter. I didn't have his cell phone at the time when he was at work. I called my daughter and asked her to call him and tell him to give me a call. So he did, and I asked him how marriage life was, and he was just beaming. You know how it is when you talk on the phone to someone and you can hear them smiling? Mm-hmm. I could hear him smiling.

[13:00]

He was so thrilled to be married. He told me all the good things and all the things they worked out. And while he was talking, I felt this strong sense of joy. Now, I'm not married anymore. I don't have that kind of close... intimate relationship i have to be very careful here while i talk about this what kind of relationship do i have well i'm working on that but or as it says on facebook it's complicated so it would be very easy for me to feel jealousy and envy with my daughter's new love and her happy life and of course now she's going to have a baby But while I spoke with Daryl on the phone, I felt amazing joy. And I realized I'm a part of something. I am a part of something here. It may not be mine, but I can experience joy and feel the joy of their happiness and their togetherness.

[14:08]

And it has carried me ever since that conversation. Of course, you know, they haven't been married very long. But I am enjoying it. And it's wonderful. And he loves me. So what can I say? So we have to be grateful for the opportunity to end suffering when the opportunity presents itself. And to allow ourselves to take joy in somebody else's life. experience positive experience and we have to come to this point from a place of generosity and a place of gratitude because that is how we cultivate these gifts these practices we are generous and we are grateful so Lost my page.

[15:15]

So the practice of love and joy opens our hearts, which brings us to a place of awakening. A big part of what we practice is, or the knowledge that we have in our practice, is that we're awake. As the Buddha said, I'm awake. I'm not God. I'm awake. I'm awake. And so that's a goal, to be mindful and to be awake in our practice. So these are the things that remind us of that, the practice of love, the practice of joy, being awake, coming from a place of that wakefulness reminds us of who we are, our true nature, our true Buddha nature, who we are in that fact. So my practice... I'm finding these days, as I define my practice, it's a practice of peace, it's a practice of love, it's a practice of joy, it's a practice of happiness, and it's a practice of sacred noble silence.

[16:32]

And from that place of silence comes forth all of these gifts. everything that we have to offer ourselves and for others. And it's easy to get caught up in something and be caught up in anger. It's a very difficult balance. When we look at the world, we see what's going on and how we can get worked up about it. And of course, as I said earlier, I'm concerned about a lot of the things that are happening in our world. But the healing doesn't come from that place of being upset and excited. It comes from the place of sharing love and coming from a place of love, love of ourselves and love for others. And to have a kind thought in a loving way toward other beings. And even, you know... 40 miles from here or 30 miles from here, there are people who are suffering, not of their own cause.

[17:38]

Suffering from hunger and poverty, loneliness, loss. So much loss. And I'm sure many of you have had that experience of losing someone that you care about and love. That also... causes suffering, it brings us to a place of suffering. But there's healing for us, and we have that because of our practice. We're lucky. The more we practice, the less the hurt. The more we practice, the less the hurt. There was a time when, well, I do have a partner, sort of. I haven't quite figured it out. We've been together 13 years, but, you know, I don't know. So... There was a time early on when I used to get mad at him. Oh, my goodness.

[18:39]

I would get so mad about something. And I would purposely keep it going, you know, for days and weeks. I mean, I would just keep it going. I would not let it go. And... Then I just committed it to my practice. And the more I practiced, the more the pain went away and the less anger I had. Anger was an issue for me. Now it's not because I have committed it to my practice to allow myself to again love myself and love others. So now I rarely, even though our relationship is totally bizarre, I rarely get angry with him. And there's a lot of harmony in what we share because of that. So I think, you know, when I get asked to give a talk at City Center or the East Bay Meditation Center or Spirit Rock or wherever, I

[19:52]

I always think, gee, I wonder if I'm going to do a good job. I wonder if anyone will show up. It's always throwing the party and wondering if anyone will come. But the most important thing is that when I prepare a talk, supposedly for other people, it really becomes a message for myself. So I'm really, is this on? I guess it is. Well, that's there now. Hello. So anyway, I don't want to preach. What I would like to do, though, is on this theme of Love and joy on that theme.

[20:53]

I would like you to think about situations that you have been in where love and joy might have been a challenge for you. Something that just caught you off guard. Sort of a surprise. A sense of envy for some reason. Or a challenge to love someone that you don't find to be lovable. Because when we say these phrases out of love, we're also saying them for the difficult person, not just the benefactor, not just the person that we love, not just the family member, although sometimes that can be a difficult person, but for someone that you have some problem relating to. It's very important in that relationship to say these phrases of love. May you be free. May you be healthy. May you be protected from inner and outer harm. It's important to be able to say those phrases for the difficult person because it gives you more love and gives you more opportunities to be free.

[22:01]

So if you think about some challenge or some situation where you've been caught, finding yourself caught, and have to make a decision, you know, oh, I don't like that person, Or, you know, I'm not happy that that person got a new car. They don't deserve it. Whatever the situation is, what choice do you make in a situation like that? What choices have you made? Or if an opportunity presents yourself, another situation, what choices can you make? What is it that you can do in your own thinking, in your own heart, coming from your heart to make a difference? in a situation that requires love and joy. Think about that for a minute, and anyone want to share what you've come up with? Anyone?

[23:11]

Yes. So, I know that real love is loving what isn't lovable, and... When I feel like I'm being made the enemy, maybe by someone who isn't able to have enough faith to what's going on inside of them, sometimes the best I can do is fade in myself out and end the interaction. You know, in my ideal perpetuity would do more of what you said, but I find walking away to be really skillful sometimes. I don't know if everyone heard her, but she talked about walking away from a situation that's painful or a difficult personality to be able to walk away from it. And that also relates to the practice of right speech.

[24:12]

Because we can get engaged with someone, a heated discussion over something as simple as doing the dishes here in the evening or whatever it may be. Some confusion that could be easily resolved. So right speech is very important. And in her case, not engaging at all when it's that difficult and that heated. Anyone else? Yes. Actually, a couple of things in quick succession about anger kind of coming for me out of nowhere. I was really surprised by it. I was two people I was close to. At a certain point, I realized I was angry and that I had an explanation, like, you know, some righteousness around it, which means... I knew I was right, see.

[25:14]

But that came after, actually, I was angry. You know what I'm saying? Like, I had an emotion of anger, and then intellectually, I had a way to explain to myself. Yeah, and it was curious because at a certain point, I had this realization, and it was like I was in a cage or a jail, so I felt myself in a, like, imprisoned by this feeling. But the door wasn't locked of the cell. And I knew that. Or the door was locked, but I had the key. That's more like it. The door was locked, but I had the key. And I knew I had the key, but I didn't use it for a while. I didn't want to use it. It was like I wanted to be angry. You know? And then after a while, then I used the key. But the curious part for me was, even though I had some quote-unquote insight into what was going on, still the power of the emotion was such that I didn't take a step that would have been liberating for me and for the whole situation.

[26:34]

There was a lot of hesitation about it. And I'm not quite sure about the dynamics of that yet. reflecting on what was going on. I was like, well, I mean, what's the important thing for me there? I had to say no. But it was very surprising. So what did you do with the subject of your anger? How did you handle that? Oh, the content? Or the person? The person. The person. Eventually. What I realized was this person, just like me, was doing their best to work with the energy. It was coming out in a certain way, which, from my point of view, was not acceptable. It was problematic. But there was a context I was able to see that we're just on the same field.

[27:36]

We're trying to do our best. Yeah. could say this is right, this is wrong, I'm right, they're right, I'm wrong. I could say the same, but the main thing was that we're just working with them. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. Thank you. Anyone else? Yes, here and then here. I feel maybe like I'm part of this theme here. Mostly, I have sometimes... I have had, I mean, still kind of going out and having trouble with positive love. And so, in some ways, I'd like, at some point, to unpack that a little bit more. But for me, it's like, if I get disturbed, it's just to stay neutral. And part of what that means is trying not to judge, not to go into judging, and to remind myself, there's more going on here that I can see, or that I know.

[28:37]

So sometimes it helps me. not get reactive. And if I have enough space, you know, like that, maybe the next thing I can do as neutral is, you can just say, is there anything else, or what's wrong, you know, just actually make contact with the person there, rather than the story I have over here. There's a bunch of little space between, you know, And maybe people, there may be, even I might experience the absence of an aggressive act. You would not look on the other person's side, but the lack of aggression feels positive. It is. But I don't know if that is. I think we take it in stages.

[29:41]

I think going to a neutral place, as you shared, is a stage that we choose before we get to the place where we can actually love freely. Because if there's emotion involved, which there usually is, anger or resentment or envy or whatever it is, the emotion that comes... Sometimes it's so fast we don't know what to do with it. So if we just go to a neutral place, I think that's very healthy as opposed to, as you said, become aggressive. But I think sharing love or loving kindness takes steps. And I think we have to visualize, actually, It's like anything else we do in our practice.

[30:44]

We have so many factions to practice, especially when it comes to social relationships, being around people. It's one thing if you're just a monk and you're a room by yourself and you don't ever see anyone except someone that brings a little food, a breadcrumb or so, and you're looking at the wall. That's one thing, which is a big part of practice for sure. But there's also the interaction with people that we have to commit to our practice. We have to be mindful of practicing on a daily basis all the time. We have to commit our eating, our drinking of water, drinking of tea as a practice. So I think that if you could start by loving yourself, practice that first on a daily basis. when something happens or something occurs or a thought comes to mind, you can stop and say, may I be free.

[31:47]

May I be safe. May I have love. And you can practice that on a daily basis, maybe every day at some point in the day before lunch or something, or you can practice that time. I don't know what your schedules are here, but you can practice that. Practice that time of love. And I think eventually it will spill over into your relationships with others. And you'll be surprised. As I have found myself to be surprised. Very true. I don't know what I'm saying yes to. Yes. Yeah, I understand.

[32:49]

Yeah, it is an overused phrase, and it's very easy to get caught up in language around our practices, things that we do, washing dishes as a practice. making the bed as a practice, brushing your teeth as a practice. Everything that we do, we should commit to practice so that we're conscious. It's really easy to sort of blank out and go through the motions, but not so much feel the experience. and to know what you're thinking about, and to know what you're feeling, and to know what you're going to say. That's why right speech is such a big part of this, to be able to speak kindly and warmly from the heart, from the heart center. And when we breathe in and out, we can imagine ourselves filling the torso and the heart with that breath, so that we're constantly making ourselves available

[33:58]

to have right thoughts and right speech. So how do you get out of the rut of using language that you're so used to that it becomes meaningless or can become meaningless? Maybe instead of using the word love, think about the sensation and the warmth that can come from a kind thought for someone else or yourself. Start with that, the kind thought for yourself and the freedom that you can get from that, even if it's just for a moment. I remember when I first started sitting, I would sit in my living room and I got my chores done. Okay, now I'm going to sit. And next thing I think of, oh, I need to move the lamp to the left a little bit. Oh, the flowers need to be on the coffee table to the center more.

[35:01]

Okay, now I'm going to sit. Oh, I have to go to the kitchen for something. You know, I mean, that's how it started out. I couldn't sit for more than three minutes. I was lucky if I did three minutes. And then, of course, eventually three turned into 10, into 20, into an hour, and it became a completely different experience. And I can feel the difference inside of me, that sensation, that openness, that freedom, that air. I can feel all of that happening. So baby steps, even if it's just for a minute, to be able to allow yourself to feel those warm thoughts for yourself and practice that. And then hopefully you'll start practicing that around other people, even if it's just a minute. And you can identify it eventually as love. Yes. Yes. Yes, that's good.

[36:11]

Someone that you really care about. When you get to the difficult person, it's hard. So you start with someone that is easy, that you care about, and you can feel the gratification from, well, maybe we don't want gratification, but you can feel the satisfaction of knowing that you've loved someone. And I think I said that the hardest person to love is ourselves. Sorry. And that may be related to low self-esteem. And it's probably a good way to build up that esteem, to start practicing. Sometimes this happens.

[37:14]

I'll just take a second. I think I'm fine. So I don't know if I answered your question. I did. Okay. Someone in the back. Yes. I guess I was just thinking about what you were saying about being able to either feel someone else's joy in you or being able to give that joy outward.

[38:16]

And what came to mind right away was kind of what could have been a pretty difficult situation. One thing I've been thinking about and working with is realizing that you really do have the power to choose how you want to react to a situation. And that changes entirely the way you physically and mentally feel and how someone else is going to feel in that situation. Like really realize what the first way you're going to react to something like out of habit or whatever might not be the best way. Figuring out, okay, well, let me try on something else. And like really understanding that that made you feel a whole lot better at this time. Um, and the situation that came to mind was, um, finding out like a while back that, um, an ex-boyfriend who had become a friend, his girlfriend was now pregnant and we were going to have a baby. Uh-oh. Yeah, I could have been like, uh-oh.

[39:21]

So many things could have come out not so nice. But I just remember having this sense of real joy and happiness for them and being like, that's amazing. And what I think it was, was just wanting to encourage that same sense of joy and that because it was probably like kind of scary like what's what does this mean how's you know but like wanting wanting to like really understand that that was amazing and i was really happy for them and like you know in a way maybe that would help build them through kind of what might be a right time and it's like since have like made the effort to like visit them and visit the baby and like really do feel that joy for them so it's interesting to like do that process for myself to choose that joyful reaction rather than the like shocked stunned what is this reaction exactly and then see how that you know plays out and then even it's just a little bit and the key is generosity

[40:29]

that was an act of generosity on your part to have, even if you didn't share it with them, to have that feeling of joy for them, that it's something that can be very positive and that you're happy and whatever contributions you can make for that happiness, you would be willing to do that, especially since you're friends. So it is... an act of generosity. And then, of course, after that, as you engage with them or through the pregnancy or afterwards, there is that sense of gratitude because you are able to share and that you're grateful for that relationship. So that's a good example. That's a very good example. Yes? Is there a risk of spiritually bypassing sadness or anger? practicing loving kindness in a certain way, not allowing oneself to feel sadness. Yeah, I'm not suggesting that you don't feel sadness.

[41:30]

You have to feel everything. Whatever comes up, you have to be with that feeling. And it passes. For example, when I said that I would be really mad at my partner and I'd hang on to it and stay mad for days and weeks, The feeling that came up that caused that kind of anger is an emotion that I need to recognize and be with it and see it. Name it. Name what this experience is like. Name what this emotion is. But instead of clinging to it and grasping and hanging on to it, it dissipates because I let it go. So now if I get a sensation of some, I don't get angry with him anymore, but some disappointment, I have to stop, feel the disappointment, even ask myself, what am I feeling? Name it and then let it go and move on.

[42:32]

So I think that there's sort of a series of steps. We need to feel everything that happens to us. We need to feel every emotion. We need to be able to name it and to understand it. But to be willing to not cling to it and move on. Not to hang on to it. Let's see. There was one other hand. Yes. Something interesting came up for me recently where I went to my home song that after the So it's your home, Sangha, the East Bay Meditation Center. I wondered what happened that night.

[43:35]

Tell us. So, well, basically... I felt very uncomfortable with the way that it was handled that Friday, that was really after Thursday. Which was interesting, because I was really looking forward to it. I grew up in my mind that this was going to be the best place possible to deal with, to process that whole experience. Because I was downtown while everything happened, and I really wanted it. I was heartened by the idea that DMC was just down the street, and it was great. But basically, The leader that night read some quotes from Dr. Martin Luther King about nonviolence and not connected violence as a solution to problems, and then opens up the space for sharing and reflecting anyone who wanted to offer. And from my perspective, many of the people who shared

[44:41]

who had watched from their televisions at home had a certain perspective on the riots that basically, to me, felt racist and just a very personal perspective about who was really being violent at that event. Was it the people doing property damage, or was it the police officers beating people with their guns? So in that moment, it was really, really hard for me to have this kind of well-made kindness and compassion for the people in my sangha and people that I've practiced with. I think it was a really useful experience for me to be able to, you know, share my perspective and then just sit quietly and listen to what everyone else had to say to try to tease out the fear and restriction I was feeling around the need to say racism or institutional violence that I thought I was hearing, but also saying, well, I'm in a room with many other human beings who are practicing, and that's also very important.

[45:53]

So for me, I think it was tapping into the immediacy of the human bodies and the physicality of that space. That helped me to deal with my sense of almost being assaulted or something by the ideas that were in the rooms. Yeah, I understand. And that was a very difficult situation, one that they hadn't faced before and didn't anticipate happening. You know, all centers and institutions have to have some kind of an emergency plan or some way to deal with devastation when it arises. And since they're so new, they haven't been able to do that. So when they sent out that email, you know, we may have to shut down in anticipation. At that time, that was the best that they could do. But I'm sure that there was a lot of confusion and it causes different emotions.

[46:59]

And it's very hard to separate when so much is coming at you to say, oh, I love everyone. You know, that's kind of hard to do. So you're allowed. In hindsight, you can practice as it relates to your experience. You can sort of think through, what did I experience? How did I feel about the experience? How did I feel about the people that were around me? What can I offer them in my practice that relates to love and kindness? How can I do that? And what must I do, even if it's just for a moment? And if it's not for this moment, maybe for the next moment. Or the next. You probably wanted to say something related to something someone else said. It's all related. For me, it's been a lot about refuge in the body and feeling, say, anger as sensation.

[48:05]

Actually, feeling love as sensation. I've dropped... those phrases with my teacher, and we just focus on generating, or not even generating, noticing that love is happening. And so with anger, yeah, before the spiritual bypass question, I was probably going to say more as a comment, just the importance of letting myself notice the physicality of the anger and separate from the story, and the story goes away faster, that movie. Right. And then I can act out of love or compassion. Right. But, I don't know, that night, if that had been me, it would have been about self-compassion. There's this German, I heard that there's a proverb in Germany, I love my fellow human being... I just want him or her to change so that I can love them more fully.

[49:07]

So often with me I have to go back and forth and then sometimes just love the situation and that we're trying. Sometimes go to nature and work so complicated. I love the birds and the trees. Because it's all love and people can still feel it. You know, sometimes we choke down things. You know, instead of processing it, you know, we just kind of choke it down until we're just up to here with either anger or fear. I didn't even talk about fear, but fear, yes, grief, other emotions. And that's why... As we breathe in and breathe out, we have to release the stuff that we choked down until we're empty.

[50:08]

The whole goal is to be empty. And it sounds like you're doing that by identifying and noticing what's going on and letting it go. It does dissipate. Anyone else? Yes. This is sort of an extension of what somebody else thinks. how are you, let me better understand how you're defining love. Because, you know, here it is, love is compassion, emotion, a lot of emotion involved. It's always been a confusing question for me. It's like, what exactly is love? Well, you know, if you think about the divine abodes as love, compassion, joy, equanimity, each one of those are dependent on the others. So... And in other words, to practice compassion for yourself or for others, you have to have the love first. You have to be able to generate and develop that.

[51:12]

I mean, the way love is so used, as you said, in our society, especially. I think you can show compassion. and maybe there's love in compassion. There is love in compassion. But I think to say this is love, or to show love, I think it's something more than just sort of have it be part of something. I guess that's where I get stuck, is how to actually define love. Well, that's going to be a tough one. But I would just say that love is something... that generates from our heart. It's a feeling and experience that is authentic, authentically our own. And it's clean. It's clean. So we're empty. We're not confused. We don't have all this stuff going on. If we do, we have to lay them aside. We have to let them go and not cling to them.

[52:13]

We have to make the way open in order to see love and to feel love. And this gentleman here talked about showing love for someone that's easy to love if it's hard for you to love yourself. And that is a good place to start. But it's not an object. It's a feeling and it's an emotion. And it's an opportunity to care. And that's why it's so important to have love when you feel compassion for someone. And compassion can be active. It can be something that's not just a thought, but actually something that you do or show. And then, of course, if you have compassion, then you can have joy. So they're all related to each other. And that's a good way to study them as the divine abodes that the Buddha gave us to practice. And then equanimity just keeps the balance of them, keeps them all balanced.

[53:16]

I don't know if that helps, but that's my answer. I'm sticking to it. Yes? I'm wondering how compassion brings joy. Compassion does bring joy. I think compassion was suffering and pain. Yeah. Yeah. True. And that's how we think about compassion. That's something that we apply to someone's pain or suffering or our own. But compassion also relates to joy. It would be almost impossible to feel happy for someone's... positive experience if we didn't have compassion for people it is a form of compassion to be happy for someone's good coming a good experience positive development it's also an act of compassion and we can apply it in many different kinds of situations but it all comes from love first

[54:29]

Yeah, but I understand what you're saying. That's right, too. Compassion for the suffering. I have that, too. I show myself compassion for my own suffering. But my goal is to make sure that it doesn't last a long time, that I'm willing to let it go. Willing to let it go. I don't know how our time is. I can't see that. The lights... Oh, it's 8.14. Oh. Okay, well, we pretty much used up our time then. Oh, well. I do too, tell you the truth. So the last thing I'd like to say about this is that in this practice of love and joy, The great way to approach it is by savoring it.

[55:32]

I told my therapist a few months ago that I got a massage, and when I got to the door, it felt like I never had the massage. It was gone. It was just gone. And he said, next time I saw him when I told him, he said, you didn't savor the moment. You didn't open up to receive. So it's the same with love and joy, and even with your question and your question. It's all about opening up and receiving and savoring. Now, that's not to say that we're hanging on even to love and joy. I'm not suggesting that we cling to those, but that we allow ourselves to experience them, experience them, and to savor those moments as they come. So with that, I'll thank you for having me. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center.

[56:40]

Our programs are made possible by the donations we receive. Please help us to continue to realize and actualize the practice of giving by offering your financial support. For more information, visit sfzc.org and click giving. May we fully enjoy the Dharma.

[57:02]

@Transcribed_UNK
@Text_v005
@Score_92.26