Hello again. I don't know if any of you were online for the talk this morning, but, you know, I had a big few days getting ready for the talk at Green Gulch, and then I drove down early this morning to Green Gulch, which was amazing because it was an absolutely beautiful drive. There were about... six different weather systems that we passed through, starting with rain and then fog and then clear skies and then mountains and clouds. And it was extraordinary, actually. The whole way down was very, very beautiful. And then I gave a talk and then I drove back. So this has been a kind of intense day. I think most of the intense part is the driving part, you know, the rest of it, walking around and seeing lovely Green Gulch again. I haven't been there for a while. was really nice. It was so nice to be in the old barn with the new students. There's all new students who were there for the practice period, and they're all so shiny.

[01:22]

They're just extraordinary. I think that's the reason it keeps all of us coming to meet, is just the inspiration that comes from the folks who are just beginning to get it, to get it, that this is pretty good stuff. Anyway, so for us, there's some pretty good stuff in Suzuki Roshi's chapter called Negative and Positive. So last week, I wanted to just review slightly that we looked together at the lecture that he gave on communication. I've noticed in this particular section, there seems to be a lot of linkage between one of his lectures and the next lecture. They maybe have been given at a similar time or during a seshin. It's hard to know. They're not really dated in the book. And I don't know when or where Suzuki Roshi was when he gave this series of talks. But these few talks are very compatible with one another.

[02:24]

So last week in his talk, he tells us to look deeply into what we call reality in order to realize that we are never separate from what is happening right now. I mean, you've heard that before, and you're going to hear it again today. But it's really important to reflect on that. You know, hearing something like that is a little startling, maybe the first time you hear it, and then maybe the next time, not so startling. And by the third or fourth time, it may just seem like, oh, yeah, of course. But it's important, I think, to actually spend a little time at that startled phase, trying to understand, what does that mean, I'm not separate? There's no separation. such an important insight that the Buddha had as he sat there under the tree. And of course, his was, there was no separation between his seeing the morning star, probably the planet Venus, and realizing he wasn't separate from that or from anything else around him. And that was kind of the core realization of his awakening.

[03:30]

So we're never separated from what's happening. And that when we wish for things to be different than they are right now, that's the cause of our suffering. Wishing for things to be different than they are right now. So this is the core teaching of all the Buddhas, starting with Shakyamuni himself when he gave his first lecture after this amazing insight that freed him from all kinds of anxiety and fear and self-loathing and... and all kinds of things that we humans are subject to, he was freed because he saw something that he had never seen before and had not been seen, or at least not seen by anyone who made it so clear or was able to broadcast so loudly that 2,500 years later we're still hearing the message, you know, you're not separate from anything around you, you know, anything or anyone. So the way he described this experience was in a set of two cause and effect relationships, cause and effect, cause and effect.

[04:38]

So those relationships he called the four noble truths. So noble truth number one, again, this is a review of things you know, but again, these are important statements that have a lot underneath them, a lot of meaning. So noble truth number one, there is suffering. You know, that's truth. Suffering has a cause. That's noble truth number two. And the cause of suffering is a desire based in ignorance, based in ignoring the truth of non-separation. So wanting things to be different than they are and not being separate from things the way they are causes us to suffer, right? So we're trying to pull away or push into what's happening as if we could change things. change the storyboard somehow. We could just make it not quite like it is. I just don't want it like this. I want it to be like that. Well, that's just wishing and hoping and praying, but it doesn't really work.

[05:42]

So we suffer from that effort. So the truth of non-separation has other names. You'll find them often when you read Buddhist literature. There's non-duality. There's oneness. There's harmony. And there's the all-inclusive nature of reality, the reality from which we are being made in each moment. So the next truth is the truth of the cessation of suffering, noble truth number three. There is cessation of suffering. This is the very good news. There is a cessation of unnecessary suffering, which doesn't mean that if you break your leg, it won't hurt. It's not that kind of suffering. Or that when you break up with someone you love, that your heart won't hurt. No, it will. And your leg will hurt and so on. You know, pain is not the kind of suffering that the Buddha was addressing. He was addressing the pain that comes from how we think, how we think about things. You know, kind of, not kind of, self-inflicted suffering. So the cause for the cessation of suffering is noble truth number four, called the path or the way.

[06:49]

Okay? So this path has many parts. I think you've heard them before. And there are lots of recommendations that were derived from the familiar eightfold formulation that's found in the old Buddhist texts, in the Pali Canon, in his first sermon. And just to repeat them, for the small review, there's an acronym that, I don't know if it's an acronym. Maybe one of you could help me later. It's a set of letters to help us remember the eightfold path. And I heard this, God, it must be 40 years ago now, and this wonderful teacher named Claude Dahlenberg, who called himself Ananda. Ananda was the Buddhist attendant for many years and the one who memorized and then recited all of the Buddhist sermons. So when you hear in a Buddhist sermon, thus have I heard, the one who's saying, thus have I heard, is Ananda, who was there for each and every one of the Buddhist talks. So Ananda, our Ananda Dahlenberg, told us, he said, okay, just remember Visclem.

[07:56]

Visclem. I said, oh, geez, what is he doing? Anyway, I have never forgotten it. It's been really good. So Visclem is spelled V-I-S-C-L-E-M-M, Visclem. And it stands for right view, right intention, right speech, right conduct, right livelihood. Right effort, right mindfulness, and right meditation. So this claim, Eightfold Path. So this is the way of life that the Buddha suggested to us, recommended to us, in order to ease our suffering. It's not just something that you're going to trip over or some lightning bolt that's going to hit you. Oh, that could be nice. It could be good to have a sudden realization of... of reality as just what it is, just this is it. I mean, that's, of course, very nice. But even so, even then, if you have some kind of sudden awakening of sorts, you're going to have to live your life based on principles that help you to not cause harm to others.

[09:03]

So the Eightfold Path are those principles. They're like guidelines. you know, how you see the world, what your intention is as you walk around, what are you up to, what are you after, how are you going to live, you know, these are ways of living, how you speak, how you conduct yourself, your physical conduct, your livelihood, how you make a living, the effort you make, which covers all of the Eightfold Path, all folds involve effort, the right effort, all-hearted effort, and then right mindfulness, being mindful of what your actions are, where your hands and your feet and your body is as you move through space and run into others and so on, or don't run into others, even better. And then right meditation, samadhi, concentration practice, being able to really slow it down, slow the chatter, the monkey mind down enough so that the forest is quiet for a while. So you don't have that constant narration going on that I think we all... I think everyone must have.

[10:05]

I assume everyone has a kind of radio program that's running all the time and has these little stories and memories and jokes and all kinds of stuff that are just kind of popping in and out of our minds most of the day, most of our waking day and then at night we dream. So that chatter is very distracting. And it's not bad, it's just what's happening. But now and then it's really nice to let the little babbling brook just babble a little quieter, a little lower down, like in your abdomen. Just allow your attention to sink down so that you have some feeling of equanimity. or peacefulness for a while. I think you all have been drawn to practice through some experience in meditation, or maybe you're still meditating. And if you're not, I hope you do, because it's a very nice way to recalibrate your day. You know, it's nice to start the day with maybe half hour, as we do here at Enso Village. It's a very nice way to begin. So in the lecture that we're looking at this evening, called Negative and Positive,

[11:08]

Suzuki Roshi is making a connection between these traditional teachings from the Pali Canon, early collection of teachings, thus have I heard, and the attitude that we have as we engage with those teachings. So I think you all know that there's been some conversation going on for many centuries among the monks in the monasteries. And they all lived together. It didn't matter. There weren't schools in the early days. There were just... monastics and they lived in the same large collection of of buildings and they they read the same books and they had a variety of different ideas about what it meant what those books meant and they collected books and they added books and they did all kinds of things and so over time two major streams of buddhist teaching kind of began to diverge a little bit although they didn't split because we're not split we're still all there under the bodhi tree quietly sitting with the Buddha and having the experiences that we have just as he did.

[12:09]

And that's the core practice. The core practice of the Buddha is silent sitting. And you can't decide or declare that one person's silent sitting is less or more than anyone else's. It's just whatever it is for you, that's the whole universe having a moment of silent sitting. How nice is that? And yet, in terms of our thinking, we humans like to make these discriminations, you know. We discriminate, dissect, just split, split things into parts. So the two big strands that came out or streams that came out of the early teachings are called, one of them was referred to by the other. So one of them that came up out of northern India and went into China and Tibet and Japan and so on and certainly made its way to California in the person of Suzuki Roshi, is called the Mahayana, Mahayana Buddhism. And the other stream or strand, the Mahayana Buddhists referred to as Hinayana, which means lesser vehicle or smaller vehicle.

[13:20]

So the Mahayana means great vehicle, and Hinayana means small vehicle. And what they were referring to isn't like a value system. It isn't like you guys are... are smaller than we are, you know, whatever. It had to do with the aspiration of the practitioner. So if the practitioner of so-called Hinayana Buddhism is wanting to get free of suffering for themselves, and that's the point of their practice, I want to get out of here, I am not happy, and I'm going to do these practices so I can exit the samsara, the world of suffering. And that's considered by the later tradition to be small thinking or small personal liberation, just for one person. It just means that one person alone is going to be liberated. So the story that comes back from the Mahayanists is that we should basically not try to get out of here. We should not go anywhere until everybody goes together. So that's why you hear the bodhisattva vow.

[14:20]

It's like we vow not to leave. this suffering, circling, swirling, painful life will come back again and again and again, if needs be, until everyone is free, and then we all go together. So it's like this great big bus is going to be loaded up, and once everybody's on it, then off we all go together to our peaceful abiding, our quietude, our silence and quietude, well-earned rest. whatever we want to think of it or how we want to call it. So those two streams were in conversation. Again, they lived together in the same monasteries. They shared the meals. They were, I no doubt, good friends. And they had slightly different take on the early teachings. And so much of what happened from that point on has to do with which of these approaches are you looking at while you're reading something, When you pick up a book on Buddhism, you may begin to notice which approach it is that you have in your hands.

[15:22]

Is it the approach of personal liberation? Or is it the approach of the Bodhisattva's intention to liberate all beings? So it's just really good to know. It doesn't make any great big difference in terms of how you live your life or the Eightfold Path or your wish to be kind and good and so on and so forth. It has a lot to do with how these sutras are are presented by generations of teachers. So, anyways, Sizzikari's talk, this one this week, is centered around his understanding of this truth of non-separation or of non-duality, and what he has previously referred to in earlier talks that we've talked about together as the two truths. You've heard that many times, and again, the two truths. Ultimate truth, in Japanese, ri, R-I, and the relative truth in Japanese G, J-I. And how the two truths are simply two sides of one coin, of one reality.

[16:24]

You know, reality itself has these two aspects. There's a relative aspect with the names and forms and differences. Oops, I just put up my hand. And that's one side of the coin, you know, where there are relationships, relatives, relative truth. And the other side is reality itself, the whole of it. where you can't make distinctions between one thing and another. There are no things. There's just vastness. So one saying, one Zen saying about these two truths is they're not one and they're not two. Not one, not two. They are companions. They are partners in the wholeness of what it is that we are made of and what it is we're studying. So in this talk, he uses these terms big mind and small mind to illustrate how the two truths are located within our own minds. So he's pointing to the mind and how our minds have come to view the world, to view reality itself, a reality from which we are not separate.

[17:32]

So it's sort of like looking back at yourself in all of your aspects. You know, we're just really gazing. When we gaze out the window, we're gazing at ourself. You know, the biggest self that we are, the vastness that we are. And it's gazing back at us. So he begins the talk saying, the more you understand our thinking, the more you find it difficult to talk about it. I can say that that's certainly true. The purpose of my talking is to give you some idea of our way. But actually, it's not something to talk about, but something to practice. The best way is just to practice without saying anything. So I'm sorry. I'm going to say some more. Whenever we are quiet and still, whether it's in the zendo or we're out in nature, the truth of what he's saying seems so obvious. You might reflect on that as well. Next time you sit or maybe next time you go for a walk or you're out there with the beautiful birds and trees and waters and so on, it may seem very obvious to you.

[18:36]

that there is no right and wrong as I walk through the redwood forest. There's no inside or outside, no best tree or worst tree, you know. There is only peace and peace of mind. And usually, you know, usually, but then again, not always. Sometimes we can be out in nature and feel very grumpy. You know, we know that. But so it's not a guarantee, but it's certainly a good opportunity. we can take over and over again whether it's in the zendo or whether it's out in nature to find that space where we feel at peace so there is change and there is an opportunity to consider the facts of our life as they change you know as life changes this is what the buddha calls studying the dharma studying the truth Dharma meaning truth. Roshi tells us that the way to study the Dharma is by understanding the truth of how difficult it is to understand the truth. And that's the truth.

[19:37]

It's very difficult. And as the Buddha himself said, I think this is going to be a great vexation if I try to explain what I saw the morning of my awakening. So he was... He was implored to teach. You know, the gods represent this kind of maybe internal conscience voice that was saying to him, you know, you've got to bring this out. You have to share this experience you've had. You have to talk about it and tell people because maybe you can help some people if you do. And he said, I think that's not going to happen because it's so complicated. And it was very hard for me to figure this out. And I don't know how I would explain it. He was very reluctant to teach. And then finally, he agreed he would, and thank goodness, because that's why we know anything about all of these experiences that he had, is because he finally went forward to teach. So, understanding the truth, you know, is difficult, and yet we do our best to remember our tendency as we're studying toward one-sidedness. You know, we're kind of lopsided in the favor of ourselves.

[20:42]

You know, when we look at things, we often... or if not always, look at it from the side of ourself, you know, my side, which is by definition leaving out the other side, which would be your side. So we tend to take sides and we almost always pick ourselves, you know, as the correct, the team that's going to win or the one that's already won. So this is a tendency we want to watch out for. Are we really listening? Are we really thinking about something that maybe the first brush we don't agree with that? I don't think, I don't know about that. So I try to listen, you know, maybe try another angle or listen again or ask questions or somehow try to explore when there's something I just instantly don't think I agree with. You know, why don't I agree with it? You may remember that John Cage quote that I said to you some time back. There's a book called Where the Heart Beats about John Cage. Wonderful, wonderful book about him. He was a very devotee devout Zen student and teacher, and his music was very much an expression of his Zen, of his Zen practice and Zen understanding.

[21:52]

And he said once that, when I hear something that I think is not beautiful, or I see something I think is not beautiful, then I just keep looking, I keep listening. And after a while, I realize, you know, there is no reason I think that, no reason at all. And then that feeling, that response, that instant response that we have to something, evaporates. It goes away. What was I thinking? Why was I thinking that wasn't beautiful? No reason. There's no reason. So that's a way to not take sides. In fact, to take both sides and to really work with ourselves as the arbiter of beauty and truth and all of those things. So not to say anything, Suzuki Roshi, just to practice is the best way. Showing one finger, like Gutai, who held up a finger in response to the question, what is Buddha? I think that was the question. What is Buddha? And he went like that. He was called one finger Gutai.

[22:54]

Or drawing a circle. The Enso is a circle that a Zen teacher draws. Maybe the way. That may be the best way. Or simply just to bow. Just to bow. That's enough. So one of the characteristics of the Soto Zen teaching of Buddhism is that our way of practice always has these two sides, always has a double meaning, the positive and the negative, the chapter heading of this talk. Roshi then brings up the delicate issue within the greater Buddha Sangha of this relationship I was just talking about, of the so-called Hinayana and the Mahayana. And I talked about that already, so I won't say much more. So this historic distinction has been causing some discomfort in our own day, in our own time, in our efforts to understand the Buddhist teaching as it has been arriving here from Asia. You know, it didn't take too many centuries before camps had formed and sectarian Buddhism appeared within the stream of this lovely teaching.

[23:59]

Humans are amazing, you know. We take something so beautiful and change it into something that has conflict or disagreements to it. that argumentation. So Suzuki Roshi, if you're not aware, Suzuki Roshi and Thich Nhat Hanh and Jhumpa Rinpoche all come from cultures which were predominantly aligned with the Mahayana teachings. And those teachings include some of the familiar sutras that many of you have heard of or studied, perhaps. The Heart Sutra, which we chant at Zen Center daily. You know, the Diamond Sutra, another Prajnaparamita sutra, which I... I think it was last year. I taught a course on the Diamond Sutra, which was really fun. It was hard, but it was fun because it's hard stuff to understand. Then there's the Flower Ornament Sutra, which a great number of people at Zen Center are reading together under the inspiration of Tenshin Reb Anderson, who's been reading the Flower Ornament Sutra now for a while. And it's a huge tome.

[25:01]

It's about that big. It's a very tiny print. It's really challenging. But when you start to read it, you enter into a samadhi, the eighth of the Eightfold Path, a samadhi of words, beautiful words. And then there's the Lotus Sutra and the Vimalakirti Sutra. So these are all Mahayanas, so-called Mahayana Sutras, teachings that emphasize the Buddha's realization of emptiness and the meaning of emptiness as dependent co-arising. So all of these terms are present in the early teachings. It's just a matter of emphasis, you know, emphasis and practice recommendation. So form is emptiness. Emptiness is form. This is what we chant daily in the Heart Sutra. Form is emptiness. Emptiness is form. What does that mean? Well, it takes a while to kind of come to some understanding. And it's an amazing journey. and work through somehow some of these words like what is that you know why are they saying that it's very in very they're important things but they're also not so important you know just sit quietly it's enough or just bow that's enough but if you can't help yourself you know open a book and see if you can you know find your way through so

[26:20]

Let's see, what did I want to say? So in mentioning these two streams, these two major streams, which are still both very alive and very active in the world, you know, this hope of attaining nirvana or liberation and never returning to the world of sorrows is not a bad hope. I mean, I think we all at times wish we could just go away or just leave or make it stop, you know, make it stop. And so make it stop. And what we want to have stop is what's called samsara. Samsara means endless circling. You know, from ignorance to karmic formations to five skandhas to feelings. And you have a feeling and then you have desires that grow out of those feelings. And from those feelings comes craving. And from craving comes, you know, old age, sickness and death. Like, oh, no. And then what do you do? You start over again. You start ignoring non-separation, non-duality. That's number one in the 12-fold chain.

[27:22]

And off you go again, you know, again and again. So samsara, this endless circling, is not so desirable. I mean, nobody, you know, really is like, oh, yeah, let me do that. That really sounds fun. So a lot of us understand the wish to end that suffering. And so it's very, you know, this is tempting. And as I said, it's really somewhat of a major thing to say that you're willing to wait around until everyone else is going to be free. You know, that's kind of a big commitment, which is why the bodhisattva vow feels kind of grave or serious. You know, it's like those ceremonies where we take the precepts and we recite the bodhisattva vow, like the full moon ceremony and so on, they're pretty serious. You know, they can feel your internal organs. responding like, wow, what did I just say? What did I just promise to do? So traditionally, samsara just refers to these endless rebirths in the realms of suffering beings.

[28:24]

And if you remember from our looking at the 12-fold chain, those six realms are found there at the center of the wheel of birth and death. And they are heaven and hell, animals, hungry ghosts, fighting gods, and humans. Those are the six realms that we... We transmigrate or migrate or are reborn into, depending on our karmic life. Like how well we do this time will determine where we end up, where we come back. You know, we may come back as demons or we may come back as gods. We may come back as jealous gods who would like to be a god, you know, all those different forms. And I think the easiest way to understand what this is talking about, these realms, is to think of them as these all too familiar and human psychological states, states that we know very well and that we circle through all the time, if not every day, all day, certainly throughout the week we have circled or made contact with each and every one of these realms.

[29:25]

know as in terms of psychological states so sometimes i'm happy sometimes i'm sad or jealous or angry or scared or bored or tormented you know basically you can anthropomorphize those emotions into a kind of a way of life or like a being in hell is where you're being tormented i feel like i'm in hell you know we commonly say that and uh You know, being bored might be kind of like an animal, just standing chewing on something. Or being scared could be a hungry ghost, you know, just afraid, all the time afraid, not getting enough to eat. And the jealous gods are angry. They're angry they're not gods. And the gods are very happy and they're content. Unfortunately, they don't realize impermanence and that their state isn't going to last. And when it does, most often the gods go straight down to hell. because it's kind of hard to bear that you just lost the best of everything. So these are psychological states, and I think it helps us to get closer to these teachings when we don't think of them as something archaic, that was just superstitious beliefs from long ago.

[30:37]

They're very much present in how we see and experience our lives right now. So Suzuki Roshi says, surprisingly, I remember being surprised when I read this many years ago, that our practice is very Hinayanaistic. He made up a word there. It's very much like Hinayana practice with a Mahayana mind. He said, we have a Hinayana practice with a Mahayana mind. So both sides are there in Soto Zen, the kind of Zen that he taught. Meaning that we have a very formal practice, a very, very precise practice. And for those of you who got anywhere near the Zendo, At Zen Center, people will tell you, you know, that foot goes in. When you enter the door, you enter in on the foot closest to the hinge. You bow. You walk forward. You put your hands in shashu. You go to your seat. You bow to your seat. You turn clockwise. You bow away from your seat. And, you know, then you sit down. But don't put your feet on the meal board and so on. I mean, there's just an endless stream of instructions.

[31:41]

that we give people when they arrive at Zen Center. And for some people, that's like, well, that's enough. I'm done already. I think I've had it. And for some people, it's like it's quite relieving to be given instruction. like how to walk around in this room, how to sit quietly, how to hold your body and your posture, aligning your various ligaments and your bones so that you have a balanced posture and so on. It can be such a great gift, but it's tricky. It's not to everyone's liking, clearly. We do have seats available in the Zendo right now as a result. But still, while our practice might look formal, Suzuki Roshi says, our minds are informal, ungraspable, elusive, and all-inclusive, you know, vastness. So the mind is like, is big mind. Every mind is big mind. And it's basically contained within this body of formality, which we could say is our vehicle.

[32:47]

I've got a tiny vehicle, a single vehicle, my personal vehicle that I drive around in. you know, throughout the day. And that vehicle is contained. It has limitations to it. You know, I have very clear limitations. You know, it's my skin. That's a very limited place. I don't want things to touch my skin hard. You know, anything hard hitting me. And meanwhile, my mind is free to roam, free to travel. So it's our discriminating mind, our small mind, that makes our practice either formal and rigid. Or informal and loose. It's the mind that decides that's formal or that's informal. But actually, he says, our practice is beyond either formal or informal. In our practice experience itself, as we are sitting upright in the quiet hours of the morning or whatever time you sit, there is no formal or informal. And if you understand this point, then whatever you do is practice. It's neither formal nor informal.

[33:49]

It's beyond formal. our capacity to describe. You know, was that bow that I made just now formal? Or was it informal? Or how about the way that I walk or the way that I talk? You know, which is it? I'll never know. I'll never know. How would I know? So the point Roshi is making is not whether we have a big mind or a small mind. You know, we have both. We are both. But as he says, it's when you do everything without thinking about whether it is good or bad, when you do something with your whole mind and body, then that is our way. That is our way. When you do everything without thinking about whether it's good or bad, without judging yourself or judging others, when you do something with your whole mind and body, then that is our way. So the next few paragraphs of this talk are relevant to the time that we are in right now, the time of the election of our next president. So Roshi quotes Dogen in saying, when you say something to someone, they may not accept it, but do not try to make them understand it intellectually.

[34:59]

Do not argue with them. Just listen to their objections until they find something wrong with it themselves. interesting you know don't try to make them understand what your point of view don't try to force your your views on anyone else how does that go anyway you ever tried that i certainly have they just get harder the boundaries get thicker and the resistance gets greater and it's sort of like just turns into argumentation with a lot of heat so don't do that just wait and be patient and ask questions don't argue just listen to their objections, their point of view, until they find something wrong with it themselves. They may not, but they may. And it's much more satisfying when the person who's coming up with something that you think is, I don't know about that, begins to see maybe the one-sidedness of their point of view. So we who are citizens of... Oh, no.

[36:02]

What I was going to say next was that... This challenge, you know, which it is, it's a very great challenge to practice that way. But it seems like that approach is better suited for something like a life in a monastery, as I have done for many years. And with my friends or not my friends or whatever they were, those people that I practiced with in the monastery, we could argue and discuss... And we, over time, began to learn how to do that in a way that didn't require us to think, well, I can't live here with you anymore, or I've got to move somewhere else, or you do, or whatever, although occasionally that would happen. But mostly you had to find a way to talk directly and with your whole heart, to listen to others, to figure out how to make things come out so that we can continue together. It's a really important thing for us. But here is our situation here as citizens of this enormous nation. We're kind of stuck with things like news feeds and polls and rallies and innumerable requests for money.

[37:08]

And that's my connection to the big nation. And I can't even find someone here at Enso Village that I can speak with that I don't already agree with. At least... around the choice for the next leader of the so-called free world, you know, we're kind of like-minded here, you know, which is suspicious, because I know if I were somewhere else with another group of people, I would be very strange. I would be the one who would be on the outside of shared opinion, you know. So I do get it that I happen to be in blue world here. So... How to, you know, how to work with these differences is really challenging. And so here we have, you know, minor, minor skirmishes around, as I mentioned this morning in my talk, the arrangement of chairs in the Zendo. I mean, that's enough. Let's not go any further than that. I mean, that seems like plenty for us to talk about and listen to each other about and try and decide, you know, is there a right way? Is there a wrong way? Or is there a middle way? Is there some way we can do so that nobody feels that they've been overrun by anyone else?

[38:13]

So no matter how small or how large, we still have to learn how to do this, how to listen. So fortunately, Suzuki Roshi goes on to say that while not forcing your ideas on someone, we can try to think about it with them. We can talk, have a conversation. And yet if we feel that we have won the discussion, that is the wrong attitude. But it's also wrong to believe that you have lost. So either way, winning or losing is not the point, and it's certainly not the point of our practice. So therefore, as Dharma students, we commit ourselves to having our own ideas, to expressing those ideas, to listen to others, and without fail, to vote. And therefore, to decide together how we're going to go. And together, we will... experience the consequences of those decisions that we make. We know that. We know that. And we're going to need our friends, no matter which way it goes.

[39:16]

We need to keep making friends with each other across what they used to call across the aisle. How to make friends with those who you don't necessarily understand or agree with. He then says, between Zen students, there's no special purpose in speaking or in listening. Sometimes we listen, Sometimes we talk. That's all. It's like greeting. Good morning. And through this kind of communication, we can develop our way. I was saying to someone here recently, we were walking through Enzo Village, and one of the nice things here is you run into people, and then you stop and you talk. You know, and it's sweet. It's very nice. And you catch up on things. And, you know, it takes a long time to get back from breakfast sometimes because you run into a number of people and then you have these long talks. And sometimes we'll joke that, well, now it's time for lunch. So our, you know, the very sweet thing about this life and community, you know, was reminding me of the very sweet thing about life in the monastery, which is when we walk around the monastery, we don't stop and talk, but we do stop and bow.

[40:24]

You know, when you see someone coming, you stop walking and you bow to each other. And then you keep going. So there's something nice about that too. Something that kind of frees you up from the chatter, from the need to have friendly chatter, as nice as it is. Sometimes it's also nice just to be quiet together and to show respect for each other. I see you. I know you're there. And I remember also thinking when I was at the monastery that because of our... judgy ways that we have people we maybe think are easier to get along with than other people and that sort of stuff. At the monastery, I made a real point, and it was something that I was taught, to bow the same way to everybody. It doesn't matter what you're feeling. If you just had a fight or if you have a big crush on them or whatever it is, just stop and bow the same way to each person. It's a great practice, a really good practice. It really helps you to see yourself. So in the last paragraph of this teaching, Roshi says that whatever we do, including not doing, is our practice.

[41:30]

Seeing how that is so is the correct understanding of big mind. Big mind is something to express, but not to figure out. Figuring out is the work of our small mind. Big mind is something to talk about, to express by our activity, or to enjoy. Big mind is something we have, and not something that we're seeking. When we come to understand this big mind of ours, then how we keep the precepts will not be either the Hinayana way or the Mahayana way. It will be the Buddha way, the way of enlightened vision. So once we begin to understand our problems as aspects of big mind, then they aren't problems anymore. Problems we have in our life are due to our own misunderstanding of suffering and the cause of suffering. of the cessation of suffering and of the cause that leads to the cessation of suffering. Understanding the basics helps everything else to fall into place.

[42:32]

Suzuki Roshi ends saying that because of the double or paradoxical nature of truth, there should be no problem of understanding if you have big Mahayana mind. This kind of mind will be obtained by true Zazen. So that's a word from our sponsor, Suzuki Roshi. And now I'd like to turn over to the gallery pose or gallery, not a pose, gallery. Yeah, that's it. Thank you, Karina. And say hello to everybody. I'd like to greet any of the new folks that I haven't yet met and say hello to, I don't want to call you old timers, but the elders. So hi, Corey. Welcome. I'm not sure we've met, but welcome. Linda, nice to see you, my next-door neighbor and close relative and friend. And who shows back? Michael. Hello, Michael. Welcome back. Lisa, welcome back. She's been traveling. Nice to see you again. Good to have you back. I talked about your belly several times in your absence.

[43:36]

I've got a new book, Belly, that I'm really enjoying. And there's Amir and Echo. Hi, Kathy. Kathy's another neighbor. Welcome. And Stephen. I think I know Stephen. You've been coming before, I think, haven't you? Yeah. Hi, Stephen. And Tim. Carol Shannon. She's also a neighbor. Hi, Carol. Jerry, welcome back. Cynthia's returned. Hi, Tom. There's Dean and Paul and Kate. Carmina and Marianne. Senko. Hi, Hope. Nice to see you. Kosan is here. Marie Stockton. Welcome, Marie. Adrian, again. Welcome, Adrian. Welcome back. Hi, Marie. Nice to meet you. Welcome. Again, Shin. Abby. Abby. Welcome, Abby. Carolyn. Hello, our Carolyn. She's an oldie. And Charles Lee. Hello, Charles Lee. Welcome. I love your balloon. It's really nice. And Kevin.

[44:36]

What's that? No, I said Amr. Didn't I say Amr? Amr, don't I say Amr? I did. Okay, good. All right. So welcome, everyone. And please, I really enjoy hearing anything you'd like to offer or ask or bring up, responses you might have to this chapter. And yeah, so just, you know, you know what to do. Great. Amr, please. Thanks, Fu. So I have a question about this example you've brought up several times about the facing of the chairs. So, you know, and you were talking about taking the middle way. And I guess the same, you know, the same could go for the presidential election. But, you know, you can't take half of one candidate and half of the other. And likewise, I guess you could turn the chairs sideways and I don't know how...

[45:39]

Well, that would have worked. And I know you have studied conflict quite a bit. So, yeah, if you could just talk about that resolution of conflict in the world. Yeah, it's so hard. I mean, that's why there's so many books on resolving conflict. And that's why lawyers do very well. You know, there's so much conflict. And wars, of course, are the ultimate expression of unresolvable conflict, as we're seeing. And it's horrifying. what happens when you can't get to the table together and agree on which way the chairs should be facing, or whose land is this anyway, and so on. I mean, these seem unsolvable. And so I haven't lived... I mean, I've been reading the news, and in a sense, because we're not separate, I have lived through the horrors of all kinds of conflict that people have suffered throughout my life. You know, I was born at the end of the Second World War, and then there was Korea and Vietnam, and, you know, on and on and on, every few years, another war.

[46:42]

So those involve me, involve my heart and my feelings. How they're resolved, I have no idea what makes it stop. Why did they stop, you know? I don't know. When will they stop? I don't know. So those big global events that involve the whole, like, ant hills of humans doing things to each other, I think our human history is made of that. And, you know, and I'm aware of how much there's been. But I'd say the place I actually live in conflict is the ones like the chairs, where there's something that seems rather minor. you know, on the face of it. But people's feelings get hurt. And there are, you know, it's like, well, don't, you guys are, you know, you have the potential, it feels like, to overpower us. You know, it feels like you have, you know, these teachings and so on and so forth. And the fact that you kind of...

[47:43]

founded this place where we are living by choice. We want to be here, but we also don't want to necessarily just succumb to your style or your way of practicing. So we did. It was wonderful to have an employee who's not part of either group who could basically decide whether or not to cut the cat in half or sew it back together or what was the resolution. So now we have several periods of sitting. One of them is called zen sitting and that's in the morning the chairs face the wall and then later on there's an open sitting and you can turn your chair i think any way you like in the open sitting so you can leave it facing the wall or you can turn it to the center and i don't know what happens exactly i i've gone once it was very nice and it turned out i was the only one with my chair facing the center because everyone else is was facing the wall wait a minute this is getting very confusing so um we keep trying to find our way with each other that's But Phil, as much as we can, is kind and respectful and not, you know, using any advantage you might feel you have or you could have.

[48:53]

Just don't overpower anybody, especially if you could. You know, don't do that. So, you know, we're still talking and we're still friends and we're still finding out, you know, why? Why do you think that's a good way to go? And I'm getting some of the reasons. And it's interesting. You know, it gets more interesting, like John Cage. Just keep looking. Is there really a problem with that, with the chairs facing the center? Does that really bother you, Fu? He's like, no, not really. That's really okay. So that's, I think, called the middle way. You find your way to meet at the net. You know, after you've had this great game, you just come at the net and give each other a big hug. This is nice about tennis, you know. Okay? Thank you. Ko-san. Shannon. Oh, Shannon. Oh, hands are popping here and there.

[49:55]

Shannon was first. Shannon was first. Yes, I can wait. Thank you. Shannon, did you change your mind? You can, if you like. I was just saying that. I was just thinking, I'm really finding it. I'm kind of of the Hinayana... face the center school. However, I very much like facing the wall, I find. It's kind of more, feels more protected. And so anyway, that's the way I sit. But I sit with the other, and then I guess most of them are sitting facing the center, but But it feels good. I mean, it kind of feels like I'm stretching myself to do it differently than I was used to doing it. And I realize I like it. I like it. You know? So there you go. There you go.

[50:55]

There you go. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you. Yeah. There we go. We got the Mahihaniana. Just one Yana. One big Yana. Great. And Kosa. And then Helene after that. Hi. Hi. Good evening, Sangha. It's so lovely to be with you. I have, because you've covered a bit in this talk, what you covered in your Sunday morning talk, I'm going to kind of conflate the two and ask a question that I wanted to ask this morning, but you were very popular. So you mentioned the driving on the highway one and, you know, the tailgating and the fingers and the gestures and the things. How and your daughter had this really lovely eye opening comment to you. What if that happens if they're rushing to an emergency? But I guess my other side of that question is, what happens if they don't know they're being jerks?

[52:02]

I interact very regularly with people who I think. don't realize that they're being harmful but are and I don't I guess I wanted to get your in this moment take on how do you I mean you want to give your your view to the world and at the same time sometimes the view is you're being a jerk and how do you deal with that I mean sometimes with the gestures yeah And that makes a lot of sense to me. And I wish I had more bravery to do that in other places when I'm not just behind the wheel of a major automobile that I could do damage with. Yeah. And you said in this talk this morning, you know, it is big mind and it is all part of it. And as someone who has just dealt with this a lot more than I have, how do you deal with people when they're just being jerks? Well, great question.

[53:04]

And part of it is not forgetting that I'm a big jerk. You know, like I was saying, when I'm full of myself and I'm righteous indignation and I'm sure that I know what's going on, I'm a big jerk. You know, so I think it's not just thinking that it's only them and that you also have a capacity. We all have a capacity to be a jerk. And we hope. Well, like, was that play where she says, I depend on the kindness of strangers? You know, it's like streetcar. Streetcar. Yeah. You know, and so we do. We depend on the kindness of strangers. And certainly here where a lot of us are not intentionally going to be jerks, but we're going to be very forgetful. And, you know. running around in our pajamas and doing all kinds of stuff that we probably would rather not be doing. But we're going to count on the kindness of strangers to understand the conditions under which we are behaving the way we're behaving.

[54:08]

And I'd say in most cases, the people you're probably running into have conditions that brought them into being the way they are. And you know that. Maybe never kind. Maybe they didn't have parents who were ever kind. Maybe they didn't have parents. Maybe they were basically so mistreated like, You can tell with dogs that they've been mistreated. They either growl and bark or they hide. And so I think humans are just the same. We have these conditionings. And somehow you're bringing forward your practice when you're able and meeting that kind of tension or aggression with kindness. And with skillful means. So that's why I like to read about conflict resolution. And as an attorney, I think you probably know a lot about conflict resolution. So how do you keep coming back to your own center point, you know, your own middle way within yourself and help that person to perhaps hold the space maybe a little differently by not responding in the way they are used to?

[55:12]

You know, they're used to that. But when you do that, you know, you do something else like... Like Woody Allen. Like Woody Allen said when this bully came at him, you know, he'd ask the guy, well, do you think it's okay to kiss on the first date? You know, or something just out of the field in order to create a whole other mindset than the one that's getting, you know, drawing you in, drawing you into aggression, you know. It's a tricky business, but I think there are skills. And I really enjoy reading and learning from people who have practiced and studied those skills. And I think it will benefit the world the more you know those skills, because you're not going to get away from people like that ever, ever, ever, ever. So best to get your own skill set, your own way of working with that. Like Karina worked in a very kind of desperate population in San Francisco, Homeless gay men who had HIV.

[56:14]

So that was her. Those were her clients, her people. And she really, really cared about them. But if they got aggressive, if they came in, were like wild on some drug or whatever, she put her hands up like this. You know, you have to sit down. You have to stop. You have to stop. Like Kamala does that, right? I'm talking. She doesn't go like that. I'm talking. So these are clues for us of what might work when a wild elephant, the Buddha tamed a wild elephant just that way. It's okay, you're safe. I'm not going to hurt you. So again, I think there's skills. And I think you have good motives for learning them. Because it's hard. It's hard for you when people treat you that way. Understandably. Yeah. Thank you for that. And may I just say your talk this morning was so warm and loving to everybody there.

[57:21]

It would just, it seemed like you just came back from vacation. You're very light and you're very lovely. And I just really enjoyed the warmth this morning. So I just wanted to share that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It's true. Vacation does wonders after 45 years of, of formal practice and formality. It was a great relief. Thank you. Helene. Hi. You are muted. Thank you for your talk this evening. And I really enjoyed your talk this morning. And you talked about... things I really needed to hear. So whether you were doing that on purpose or not, I thank you. You're welcome. The reason I spoke up is because I wanted to say that the only time I have had the experience of sitting Zazen facing the center was at Sasaki Roshi's

[58:33]

Temple in Hemes Springs. And he was purely Rinzai. Robert Aiken, where I practiced, was a hybrid. And we just sat facing the wall. So I just wanted to offer that. And also, is Rinzai part of the Mahayana tradition? Yes. That's what... It's not part of the Hinayana tradition. Well, everything's part of everything, but yes, it's more of the sutras and the teachings and so on from the Mahayana, the ones I named, Lotus Sutra, Perfection of Wisdom Sutras, real emphasis on emptiness teachings. Of course, if you've been around the Rinzai camps, you get a lot of emptiness teachings, you know, quats.

[59:34]

I didn't spend very much time there. It was just an experience of four or five days. But also I wanted to say that you addressed the issues that I've been having with the quality of my own thinking. and how thoughts that derail me or make me feel ashamed or guilty pop up and how to work with that. And one of the things that I remember It's from Suzuki Roshi is just the idea of letting things be gentle on your mind. And that helps.

[60:37]

You know, instead of getting involved with the tension and the judgment to just kind of pull back and let things float a little bit. And. So I wanted to just thank you for getting into that because I wrote you about it and I felt like you really helped me or helped me understand how to just work with the whole issue. And that's it.

[61:45]

I'm getting lost in my own words. They're soft. That's good. Thank you, Helene. Yeah. So let's see. I see. Who have I got? Karina, what's the line up here? Marie? Yeah, Marie. Hi, Marie. and then kathy and then lisa so marie where'd you go where'd she go you know when when you take your hand down somehow you pop out of the order of marie are you still here there you are i see here we go i'm sorry i was struggling to unmute um hi everyone uh i'm marie it's nice to uh to be with all of you i I've watched some of the videos, so it's kind of wild. You're like real people, you know, not just actors on the screen. It's fun to be with you live and in person. I got a lot out of this reading.

[62:46]

I was able to jump from lily pad to lily pad. Sometimes that doesn't happen, so this one was kind of fun. I really, really appreciate how Suzuki Roshi puts words on things that are hard to put words on and talks about that exact phenomena of articulating things and giving permission not to. I think the thing that I got most out of this reading was not to say anything may be very good, but there is no reason why we should always be silent. I don't know. That was like a little permission granting that I appreciated. And the words, few as they need to be in my mind, the ones that I'm getting drawn towards are big mind.

[63:56]

That's a new phrase for me. So anytime anybody says anything about Big Mind tonight, I'm going to be honing in on listening very closely. So that's really all I had to say. I don't really have a specific question other than, you know, tell me more about Big Mind. Thanks, Marie. Well, welcome. I'm so glad you're enjoying being here with us and being us. And this is Big Mind, is it? This includes all the other ones who aren't here. So that's how big it is. And it's really nice when we get to actually see a little aspect of the big mind. That's just what we are. So there's lots of big mind in Suzuki Roshi. That was his way of talking about the two truths, about vastness and then about particularities, you know, which is just kind of an accordion. You get out tiny, quantum physics, and you go way up big, like astrophysics. So you can do that in terms of your human awareness.

[64:59]

We do that all the time, you know. So stay tuned. I think there's more Big Mind coming up. And we'll just keep moving through the chapters together. And again, welcome. Thank you for coming and joining us. Kathy. talk about conflict and about resolving conflict with the other person and I have an experience of conflict maybe I'm rehearsing resolving it with the other person but it's really between parts of myself and it's triggered by another person so This is my version of arranging the chairs in the zendo.

[66:03]

It is that I came into this practice in a kind of a silent sitting, just sit mode. And I'm frequently exposed to sits where the leader is guiding me in how to feel, how to pay attention to my senses and sense my body. And I'm going, in my mind, I'm going, shut up. I just want to be aware of my own thoughts. So it's not that the other person is wrong and I'm right, but how do I handle that feeling in my own mind? Yeah. Well, that's, I think that's called a preference. You have a preference for things to be, you know, we all do.

[67:05]

You want your beans cooked, well cooked, and you want your meditation sessions to be quiet and probably a number of other things that you want. And, you know, reality is a very bad server. They don't bring you what you want. You know, it's like, that's not what I ordered. Yeah, that's right. But it's what you need to work with the parts of your mind. So, you know, I don't know if you remember, Gurjeev had one of the students in their community was impossible. And everyone just disliked this person. And finally, you know, their collective negative vibes forced the person to leave. And Gurjeev went after them and offered to pay them to stay. He said, you need this person. You people need to have this kind of conflict so that you can learn. how to be more gracious, more accepting, more patient. And what's the point of practice if it's just the way you like it? Practice what?

[68:06]

Good point. So you want to have things like that little sand in the oyster makes pearls, right? So we do need rub, we do need tension, and we do need direct communication that's both direct and kind. I think it's okay to know, to find out, is there going to be talking in this sitting or not? And a lot of There is a lot of talking in certain forms of Buddhist sitting practice. And if that's not your style, then you say, well, then I'll choose not to go to that rather than to sit there, you know, with steam coming out of your ears. I mean, although that's a very good way to meditate, it's probably better for you to find a place where you can feel calm and work your way up to going to places where it's difficult. So kind of take, you know, a little bit at a time. Okay. Good luck with that. Okay. Who do we have now? I see Lisa and Echo. And Lisa, I think Lisa's got her hand.

[69:08]

She's first in line anyway. Lisa, welcome back again. Nice to see you. It is lovely to see you all and be back and trying to find my way back to a schedule. But I'm coming with a question about maybe doctrine and the difference between Hinayana and the idea that you can obtain pure nirvana versus the Mahayana you know my understanding of Mahayana is that essentially there is no I won't say there's no difference, but there's that Mahayana and Samsara are not one and not two, but that they are linked. And so that that's a, there's a difference there between the two streams.

[70:17]

It seems like it, but you know, it's really. It's really interesting when you, it's sort of like talking to your Christian friends. You know, after you talked to them for a while, like I loved when Carmina said that, well, what I was taught was that Jesus means reality. And I thought, well, that works. You know, that's really good. I can go with that. I wish they told me that when I was back in the Episcopal Church. So there are ways of harmonizing doctrine. coming to a wider sense within your field, particularly when you realize you're excluding people who you would really like to feel included. If your heart really is to open to the world, universalist or Catholic or whatever it is, what is it that's closing you down and causing others to have pain around joining you or feeling comfortable with you or whatever? So we see plenty of examples of that, of sectarianism and of the three big religions that People of the book are all hate each other, you know, at various times.

[71:22]

So how are we going to find our own way as Buddhists to not continue some inheritance that, you know, as Westerners, we don't know anything about that. I went to Zen center and I thought that was Buddhism. Nobody told me, oh, by the way, there's Shingon, and there's Rinzai, and there's this, and there's that, and there's Theravadan, which is not the same as Hinayana, by the way. Hinayana is really referring to individual liberation. Whoever's doing it, Mahayanists are into that too, where I'm just here for me. You know, I said to Rabbi, one of my early confessions in Doksan with him back at Tassahara in the early days, where I said, I was crying, and I said, I think I'm a Henny honest. I don't care about anybody else. I just want to be free. He said, thank you for your confession. So, you know, it'll show up where it shows up. And it's an attitude that each of us may notice in ourselves rather than looking for it over there in somebody else.

[72:26]

So I think it's good to understand these things and how they came to be, because you'll see the words when you read the sutras. You'll see these terms, and it's really important, I think, for us, because they've become kind of hot-button items, for us to know where that comes from and that it's not referring to other forms of Buddhism, but actually to a particular style of practice that people fall into. And so that's one way to help ourselves. What was the other thing you asked about the doctrine of? Oh, yeah, nirvana and samsara are not one, not two. They're points of view. know and they're all related to suffering so that's the coin the coin of suffering on this side of the causes for suffering and on this side of this is the causes for the cessation of suffering and together that's the whole story so that completes the story okay so anytime you find something like that that you feel is like uh separated the separation

[73:29]

then, you know, we can talk about it or somehow bring it up if you like. You're welcome to. And let's see if we can find a way to suture. The sutras. Sutra means to suture, to sew things back together again. Right? So I think that you then turn to the heart sutra and, you know, there is no cause, no cessation. No path. No path. No Buddha. Right. Yeah, that's right. So it's essentially the emptiness that joins them. And separates them. So you can't have one side without the other. Right. You wouldn't join them if they weren't separated. Right. So duality is dealing with two propositions that seem to be oppositional. Non-duality is seeing that those propositions depend on each other.

[74:33]

They dependently co-arise. Goodness depends on badness. Right. Badness, you don't need a word for goodness. And similarly, samsara and nirvana. Exactly. They're conversations between two sides of the same ineffable reality that doesn't come with words. We made the words up. Yeah. So we have to work with our creation, which is language. Yes. And cognition. Yes, yes, yes. Well, we didn't create that, I don't think. Maybe. Maybe. I think it's linked to language, but yes. Yeah, yeah. Eventually. But, you know, cognition came long before language, right? Language is, what, 70,000 years old? We've been... cognizing and pointing and grunting. And so do our brethren. Anyway, we can have that conversation.

[75:34]

That's a good one. Cause I know you're a neurobiologist, aren't you? I have to be careful. I want occasionally. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. Okay. Echo, please. And then Tim, and then that may be it for this evening. Echo, did you go away? All right. There you are. There's a story, I don't remember if it's in this chapter or the previous chapter. It says that the Zen teacher teaches something, something like the student doesn't understand, so the teacher says, go away. Oh, yeah. Suzuki Roshi goes ahead and says, oh, but the teacher actually doesn't mean go away, he means something else. I forgot what it was. It seems like there are lots of that kind of story shows up in the old stories, like in Zen stories.

[76:42]

Some of this involves real violence, like physical violence, like with knives and with big sticks. Sometimes it's verbal violence, just saying Sometimes it's ridiculous words. Sometimes it's like unkind. And for some reason, we usually talk about these stories like, oh, there's a hidden meaning in this. That's a teaching out of box. It's unorthodox. It's almost like we encourage that. Every time I encounter this, I feel like that's so irresponsible. That's abuse of power. And no form, no amount, no extent of abuse of power is acceptable, no matter how good the intention might be. That's my opinion.

[77:43]

So when I read this, I immediately remembered, like... a few paragraphs before or a few pages before it says, oh, when we listen, we sometimes just listen to ourselves while we pretend to listen to others. When other people say something that agrees with my opinion, then I enjoy what he says. When this guy says something that doesn't agree with my opinion, then I think he's wrong. I think I must persuade him and therefore I don't, because of this attitude of listening, I miss the true meaning of the communication, I miss the true meaning of, because of this attitude of listening to other people talk, I miss the true meaning of what he's trying to say. Now come back to the story that I think, You know, it doesn't agree with my opinion.

[78:46]

I think it's abuse of a power. I think it is wrong. I think it shouldn't be encouraged. Sorry. My Alexa just went off. Excuse me. Oh, is that because it was me? No, it wasn't you. Sorry. You may have said accidentally her name. Anyway, sorry. Go ahead, Echo. I wonder if you can say something about that. I don't know if I'm making myself clear. I think so. Okay. I think I understand. Certainly the first part about the violence and the abuse of power, I think I agree with you. And oftentimes, myself, being of the Zen tradition, which has most of those stories show up, right, through China, not so much in India, but you get to China and Japan, and you get a lot of martial arts kind of influence into the tradition. Samurai really love Zen. And so... You know, I think it's cultural. A lot of it's cultural.

[79:47]

And I think I appreciate about Soto Zen is there's much less of that shouting and hitting and sticks and so on. There may be some of it, but it's much more of a it's called the gentle elder brother style. And the elder brother isn't too bright, but he's very gentle. The younger brother is very strong and martial. And, you know, so I like being with the elder brother school. I think being with the ones that are not too bright, as Suzuki said, Roshi said, I feel like I fit right in. And so I think our sensitivities are really to be respected. And I feel as though, you know, for myself, I reflect on, would Shakyamuni Buddha have ever hit anybody? Or chase them out of the tent? Or, you know, and I was like, I don't think so. So I like to go back to the source teacher. What would Buddha do? I think it was a bumper sticker like that. What would Buddha do? And I feel like probably you know the answer, and I think I know the answer, and it would be probably not those gestures, even though we could come up with reasons why that was helpful to that monk or whatever.

[81:01]

It's also been extremely destructive. I remember, I think it was Hakuen who wrote about how he, and he's Rinzai guy, and he misunderstood how ready one of his students was to have a big insight or a big awakening. And he was harsh with the student and the student went insane and never regained his, his sanity. And Hakuin talks about that. It was the worst thing he'd ever done was his misjudgment of this person's readiness to be, you know, to be called to meet like that. And instead he was, he was destroyed by the strength of his teacher. So, I do appreciate Hakuen acknowledging that in the historical record. And I think that's to your point. So I hope we don't do that to each other. I hope you don't do that to anyone. I don't do that to anyone. That we don't abuse power. And we even understand what it means to have power.

[82:03]

Some people don't know they have power. And they do. And so that's a good thing too. And I think your second point I wasn't as clear on, but if that touches on the first point, or if that includes your second point, then you can... My second point was about... You know, when these old teachings, old stories were passed on... Well, when I received these stories, it was like a teaching. It's like something that you need to learn, something that I need to learn when I receive, you know. When I read or when I listen, this is something that I need to learn.

[83:08]

The story is told in this manner. And then I doubt if I were... When I disagree with it, I start to... Like, am I... Is it truly that this teaching is wrong? Or is it that I am not listening correctly? Because it does say, you know, when we listen, we're supposed to not having any preconceived ideas. And I read these stories with a huge amount of a big package of preconceived ideas. Like, you know, I... assume that you can hear it from the way I talked about it you know it's like very angry like this cannot be allowed kind of so I don't know it makes it hard to not exactly make it hard to practice I just I don't this at this point I just like freeze like cannot go forward

[84:21]

Totally stuck. Yeah. Well, I feel like you are willing to speak and you do bring things forward. And I appreciate that. And I think that's the way is to find your voice. And the more you find your voice and your confidence in bringing forward your concerns or your disagreements, perhaps with something that's been said, that's where Zen comes from, is from a conversation between two people who don't just kind of sitting there going like, oh, I agree with you. Oh, yeah, I agree with you. You know, they don't. They're actually... You know, like, you know, the one of the monk who's sweeping and his brother, who I'm sure they love one another, says, you're too busy. And the other one says, you know, you should know there's one who's not busy. And the first one says, what does that mean? There are two moons, a busy one and a not busy one, a relative truth. And, you know, is there two truths? He's kind of talking about the two truths. And the one who's sweeping holds up the broom and says, well, which moon is this? You know, and then they have a cup of tea.

[85:24]

So they're talking about philosophical principles using the work they're doing there in the monastery and helping each other to come to some kind of middle way that doesn't eliminate either side. So that's a good story. I feel like when I can understand that, I feel like I like that story because they help to resolve my own confusion or my own doubt. about understanding something. So I look for those stories. I'm going to skip over the ones that I don't understand or I don't like. I don't like that. So you can do that. Just skip the ones you don't like and find the ones that inspire you and help you with your own. And then you can go back to the other ones eventually and have a discussion. But please feel welcome in whatever way you're feeling. Please feel welcome. And Tim?

[86:26]

Oh, Tim, are you gone, Tim? Have you gone away now? I'm still here. Oh, there you are. Okay. I'll say one simple thing. You know, hanging out with you a lot, and I hang out a lot with the Theravod and Monastic, so I don't see a separation. I don't see a difference. I don't see any division. that the essence of both descriptions, I would call it, is developing compassion and living a life of serving others. And you embody that, my friends that are I embody that, and that's really the core of the whole thing. What do you think? I love you. I'll tell my wife.

[87:29]

I'm on the headphone. It's okay. Tell her, too. I love her, too. Yeah, she's very cool. Thanks a lot. Thank you, everybody, and have a lovely evening. I hope you do, and I hope to see you next week. And thank you all the new people. I don't know people, but people who joined us this evening, and welcome to come again and bring your thoughts and questions. It's just such a joy for all of us. Okay. Good night. Thank you. Thank you. Take care. Bye. Bye. Good night. Good morning. Bye. Good morning. Thank you.

[88:14]

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