This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Susanne? So this morning I realized there was a very challenging practice for me and maybe for all of you, and so I thought

[01:04]

I would try and talk about it in the context of skill and means, living in alignment with the Buddhist teaching and wisdom and the practicalities of living together. and how we make decisions about how we live together with all beings. So this morning at breakfast, we had a wonderful meal prepared by the kitchen. And as usual, I think, we look forward to mealtime. We're really hungry. Food smells good.

[02:07]

We had eggs mantra this morning, which for people who eat eggs is a very exciting menu choice to have eggs for breakfast. And everybody took a goodly amount, as much as they wanted. And the wonderful kitchen prepared enough food and the wonderful soku. serving crew did their best to serve us all and we had to wait for more food to be brought up and everyone was sitting zazen waiting patiently or not so patiently and I wanted to just describe what was going on for me during that and there's something that you recognize so the food was all laid out and we had to wait understandably so, so that everyone could be served on time.

[03:12]

And as we waited, at least in this corner of the zendo, the flies began to come. They were already here, but they gathered and congregated and were circling the circumference of the bowl, dipping in for a warm bath in the cereal. and circling and looking at the lake, the lake of orange juice, crawling, just crawling all over everything. And I happened to drop a little piece of egg while it fell off the bowl. The server didn't drop it. I somehow dropped it. And that was wonderful because they could crawl all over that. It was about their size. And... Enjoy that. And then there were the ones buzzing within the mudra, which were like a cathedral of, I don't know what it is, just playing in there.

[04:19]

And then my neighbors were doing their best to keep the flies off their food, and I was hesitating to do that, you know. I took my lap cloth and sort of, I need to straighten my lap cloth a little bit, so I'll just, little air, moving them along for a bit. But nothing made a difference. Actually, nothing made a difference. And then I noticed, and this was what I really wanted to talk about, this feeling arose in me of, I guess I would call it revulsion. Like, I don't know if I can eat the food. And the Zendo is filled with these black flies. Everybody must be having their own congregation of flies.

[05:21]

And then it's like, this is not okay. This is not okay for Tassajara. Anyway. And very, you know, series of thinking about, well, what do we do and what did we do? In the olden days, the Dohans used to have a practice of opening the Zendo doors and then taking towels and flapping and snapping towels, running around the Zendo, herding, herding, out, out, out the door. And if you're outside, you'd see these flies just come sailing out and then close the doors really fast. So maybe the... The Dohans could do that. That might help. So what is the practice in such a situation? And, you know, I could have done this if I had had my fly whisk. I could have done this constantly during the whole meal, you know, because they...

[06:29]

It didn't make any difference, so you have to keep going. And once you stop, you're sunk, because here they come again. And so I realized, as this revulsion came up, like, what is that revulsion? You know, there are many, many parts of the world, many parts of the world where animals and children and beings throughout the day are covered with flies. That they... That is their life, you know. And their food is covered with flies. And this is their lot, you know. This may be a hell realm. And can I compare these few individuals to a hell realm? I don't think so. Is it something I don't like? Yes. I don't prefer. flies all over my food.

[07:31]

Is it, am I in danger? You could, you know, we could talk about that, the health aspects, but basically it's a mild, you know, in the range of human suffering, it is mild, and still, you know, I don't like it, and it feels like suffering. And because the meal, because we had to wait longer to get the first going, there was a chance to really sit with it, really sit with what was coming up. And it's not the fly's fault. Where do I put my anger or disgust? Is it the fly's fault? Absolutely not. They're living out their lives. as sentient beings attracted to whatever it is they're attracted to.

[08:36]

Can I blame somebody? Is there somebody I can blame? That's one of the, I don't like it, and then who can I blame is one very natural kind of response. Whose fault is it? Who can I direct my anger at. So this hosu, this fly whisk, it's meant to be compassionate. You flick at the flies to have them go away. It's very handy. It's very It works, you know, for the time being, for that moment, and probably doesn't kill the fly or hurt the fly. So what is our compassionate response to our own disgust, revulsion, feeling like this is not okay to sit here covered in flies.

[09:52]

Like, it's not okay, one might think. And how do we... have compassion for this feeling. So as I was sitting there, I realized this is a conceptual, the pain around this and the disgust is this is consciousness, this is conceptual consciousness. If I were a cow, let's say, that I've seen, you know, who flicks its tail, I don't think there's disgust and revulsion. It's just irritation or a little sensation, flick, flick. There isn't like, this isn't okay for me. I deserve better. I don't think the cow, I mean, I don't know, but I think it's just responding. A sensation, flick the tail or the eyelashes.

[10:52]

So I could tell, I could almost see the conceptual overlay of, I deserve better, we deserve better. This isn't, Tazar shouldn't be like this in October. These thoughts and these judgments and stories, lots of stories about the way things, that it shouldn't be this way. The way things are. And I could feel the suffering in those stories. That was, the fact that there was, the fact that something was crawling on my eggs or bowl was not actually hurting me physically. It was a mental event, which I would say, you know,

[11:55]

Most of our suffering is like that. The physical suffering, the pain in our knees or our back or other kinds of pain is not so much mental suffering or emotional suffering. It's a physical suffering that has a kind of clean quality. It is what it is. Strong sensation. How do I relax and breathe into it or explore it with consciousness? But the mental and emotional overlay, like, I don't deserve this, this isn't okay in some broad existential way or something, doesn't come up as much. So physical pain actually is easier to work with. And we can, in some way, Over time, we can relax into it.

[13:01]

We get familiar with it. Oh, this knee pain, I know it's going to be okay. It's not going to be damaging. I'll be able to get up at kin in. So I'll relax with it. And our body, you know, when we take a position that's stretching or... a range of motion that we're not used to. We contract and say, no, no, no, no, something's gonna happen, I better hold back, I better hold back, which is why in yoga you take a pose and hold it for a while to give yourself and your brain, I guess, time to realize, I think it's okay, I think we're gonna be okay here, we can relax. If you just immediately come out of it, strong stretch, we don't give ourselves the time to realize in a full body way, this is okay, I'm going to be okay.

[14:08]

And mostly it's like that. Sometimes it's not okay, we have to be aware of that too. So this conceptual and emotional stories overlaying our experience It was so clear. It was so clear this morning. And the flies, you know, I was thinking of a story of all, you know, we've been talking about all beings, the myriad objects partake of the Buddha body, all beings are Buddha, you know, are... in inseparable Buddha body. This is Lotus Sutra teaching. All beings are on the one vehicle. And that includes flies, you know.

[15:13]

That includes all beings. And I remember this story of the Bodhisattva who began the path of the Bodhisattva this is one of these teaching stories, as a fly who was in a turd caught on the foot of an elephant that was circumambulating the Buddha. If you can picture that. And that fly that, you know, circled the Buddha in that way, you know, eventually was... born into the world as a being that took up bodhicitta, the vow to live for the benefit of all beings. But it was a very humble start, you know. And who knows what our start was, you know. We've been listening to the Way Seeking Mind Talks and there's this mouse that comes to hear the talks.

[16:20]

It comes out from the from the dining room porch while the talks are going on, peeks around, and then it scampers behind. It hides in a safe place so it can really listen to these way-seeking mind talks without being disturbed. And then it pokes out and runs away, and then it comes back. And this is now, I think, all three or four of the evenings, and I'm sure it's the same mouse, comes to listen. This is my story about this mouse. And I could imagine a children's story, you know, where this mouse, you know, listens to how these people turn their life around to take up the practice of kindness and compassion and living for the benefit of others. And you know, what a great

[17:26]

influence that might have. So this is a story that I have. The practice of sitting there covered in flies is what's needed, what's called for is the practice of patience. Practice of patience, perfection of patience is shanty, one of the six perfections, is only needed when at these moments. We don't need the perfection of patience when we're just fine and dandy. Just sitting there practicing Zazen, waiting for the servers to come, is what we do all the time. Longer or shorter, but we just sit there. Sometimes we may be anxious or something, but we're used to it. We just sit and practice Zazen. But this time,

[18:30]

you know, this feeling of, I don't know, I can't stand this, you know, may have been shared, maybe not. I'm talking about myself. And the practice of patience is what's needed when there is pain, irritation, annoyance, of all levels, you know, the smallest thing. Shantideva in Guide to a Bodhisattva's Way of Life. It talks about starting small with insect bites, rashes, discomforts, heat and cold, the small things. Can we practice patience with the small things? And it meets completely, the practice of patience, our anger. this irritation and annoyance and, you know, I can't stand it, that.

[19:36]

To reach deep below our usual happy to just sit there, which isn't the practice of patience. Happy to sit there is happy to sit there. It's not patience. Or sitting in, as I mentioned to someone recently, sitting in a doctor's office, the doctor's running late, reading old people magazines, and just fine, you're just enjoying yourself. That is not patience, even though we're called the patient. That's just hanging out in the doctor's office, reading about J.Lo and other interesting, beautiful people. That's not the practice of patience. The practice of patience is when there's actual irritation, annoyance, disgust, pain, insults, where people are reviling us or we have revulsion for something else.

[20:41]

That's painful. And we're angry. And hatred arises. This is where the practice of patience is needed. And one might say, well, how do you... What is the practice of patience if revulsion arises? There's various practices. One is to look at the causes and conditions. When you do that, you realize you can't blame the fly. You can't blame the temperature. You can't blame the workings of composting materials. You can't blame someone being forgetful or their intentions were good. There's no place you can lay it, lay the blame. It's this interconnected, dependently co-arising event. There's a story, maybe it's from Shantideva, some of you know it, where in the nighttime someone was in a boat, fisherman or something, and they saw this boat

[21:54]

boat coming towards them at high speed, and they were like, what's going on here? Turn, turn. Why is this person so stupid? Why are they doing this? And the boat, they just barely turned away in time before getting crashed. And then they looked, and it was a boat without a captain that it had been it was abandoned somehow it was a boat just floating on the waves and just being carried by the currents and this person was so angry at that negligent stupid so-and-so so-and-so so-and-so who there's there's no place to put the anger it's just the waves and the currents and a floating wooden thing and that they could feel the anger just whoosh.

[22:56]

There was no object, no place for it. And in some ways that story that I just told in reality is really closer to what's going on all the time. That the myriad causes and conditions create a situation that hurt our feelings or made us uncomfortable It didn't make us uncomfortable. We are uncomfortable in relation to that. But the vastness of this dependently co-arisen thing, there's no blame, really. The other way to work with this, and this is both Shantideva and also the serenity prayer, Shantideva has a kind of serenity prayer similar to recovery work. I don't know the serenity prayer by heart, but the Shantideva one is something like, if I can remedy this, then go ahead and remedy this.

[24:00]

If I can't remedy this, then so be it. And I think that's very similar. If you can do something about it, then do it. And if you can't, then what is the use of, you know, railing against the circumstances. Find serenity or tranquility there, because there's nothing to be done. And Shantideva asks us to look at that too. So, you know, in Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, there's one of the pages I don't know if it's the centerpiece, but it's a blank page on the left and a picture of a fly on the right, drawn by Mike Dixon, who some of you are familiar with his work. He did the portrait of Suzuki Roshi and Seiza that hangs in city center, and also this wonderful, beautiful picture of the Green Gulch road.

[25:14]

Highway 1, an opening to the ocean that we have at Green Gulch and Green's Restaurant. Anyway, his wife was Trudy Dixon, who was Suzuki Roshi's student and worked on Zen by a beginner's mind and died of breast cancer in her 30s, like 31, I think. Anyway, Mike Dixon drew that fly. And it's very realistic. It looks, you know, there's a shadow and it looks like it's sitting on the page, actually. And you probably know from reading Zen by my beginner's mind, but that fly is in relation to the frog, you know, that sits completely still, practicing Zazen. but not lost in thought or dreamy or going off on some story, but completely aware and ready to respond.

[26:18]

And when a fly comes by, the frog responds and gets his dinner, his or her dinner. So what does that fly for us? Because we're not... We're not trying to grab them and eat them. But these flies are an occasion to be awake, completely aware of what is arising, the fullness of what is arising. And what may be arising is the suffering of not getting things that we want, not having things be the way we want them. This is one of the sufferings. Or being forced to be with those we do not love. It's another one of the sufferings. Being forced to occupy this space with these beings.

[27:24]

This is suffering. And can we find our composure, our peace, a peace of mind in the middle of that? Not that we don't do anything about it. I'm not saying we just should sit there and let the Zendo be infested more and more and more. We're doing something about it, actually. There's a concerted effort to heat up the compost and cover the compost, and we might be even getting fly strips, which, you know, fly strips is, you know, it's kind of... sad, you know. It's sad to see them. We used to have them, it seems like we used to have them in the Zendo. I mean, you'd see them. And they are suffering incarnate, you know, these adhesive strips with flies that landed through no fault of their own, flying around.

[28:33]

And this is our koan, you know. This is The same thing if you're going to garden or farm or do anything in this world, really. We have to make these choices. But to make them consciously, with compassion, with tears in our eyes maybe, that it's come to this, you know. So what does skill and means in this case? And what will our decisions be? And can we live with those decisions and fully avow our decisions? There's no other way to live in this world. Show me a place. I want to go to a place that's fly free. Where is that?

[29:38]

And then what about the flies of the mind, you know, that come and buzz around? But we have that thought, I want to be fly free. So sometimes our decisions mean there will be suffering. Who suffers? And to take that seriously, you know, one of the teaching stories that I find, you know, it's one of these compassion stories of a teacher that it goes so far. You know, it's Ryokan, the Zen poet and monk who, in the wintertime, allowed lice to live in his overcoat and kept them warm, you know. And I remember...

[30:43]

thinking, no, no. You mean our compassion has to go that far? I don't want to live with lice. Although millions and millions of people have no choice, right? But his decision to allow that to me I don't know what to say about it, but I find it kind of awe-inspiring. And also, I can't do that. I don't want to do that. What are the limits to my compassion? Even though I aspire to limitless compassion, So yesterday I talked about Buddha's wisdom, which includes knowing deeply, thoroughly everything changes or impermanence, and the kind of other side of that or

[32:26]

other side of that coin is all things are dependently co-arising and interdependent and not separate from one another. And all this is one organic whole, one life whole called Buddha or Buddha body. And each of us is the whole. And each of us is, you know, each of us is a particular form. And the complete whole. And a particular form. So as the When we're the whole body, our practices of, our particularly Zen practices of doing each thing completely, being one with our activity, this is an enactment of there's nothing else but this one whole thing which is manifesting in this very moment, this activity right now.

[33:50]

And there's nothing else. And as Suzuki Roshi said, and this was one of the first lectures I heard, he said, and you're the boss. You're the boss of the whole universe. And I remember thinking, ooh, I like this. I like this. I'm the boss. I like this Buddhism stuff for Zen. I didn't know what it meant. And I think that was a misunderstanding. You're the boss, meaning... What, I get to lord it over other people or something or call the shots or be in charge or something? But there is just one body. Each of us is the whole universe, and there isn't anything even to be in relationship in the big sense because it's just one thing. What would you be relating to? because there's nothing outside.

[34:54]

So this teaching, digesting this, permeating consciousness with this, having these teachings pervade our consciousness over and over and over and over again because this is difficult to understand. This is difficult for me to accept and understand that I'm the boss, and each of you is the boss. And so each thing that we do is it. The other day, one of the Do'ans preempted the time for the buckets to come and just said very loudly, this.

[35:54]

And I thought, yes, this. That is the teaching. This. Are we awake for this? And we have stories about, you know, just this. Ungan donjo to Tozan when Tozan was leaving. You know. What? What teaching of yours can I take with me? And, you know, just this person. That's the boss of the whole world. Just this. And it can't be explained, you know, we can... tell stories, you can get a feel for it, but through our own practice and experiences where it comes alive.

[36:55]

If we think our oryoki practice and our silent chopping in the kitchen practice or raking or doing one thing is doing it completely practice is some fussiness or being good boys and girls and towing the line and doing what we're told, I think we will be unhappy in the practice. The Dharma body pervades all things. Each thing is worthy of our full attention, respect, care. and love. And the intimacy between us around these activities, helping each other, listening to one another, watching one another.

[38:15]

And when it's our time to throw ourselves in to each activity. As we've been talking about skill and means, a few skill and means stories have come up for me. One is Suzuki Roshi. wanting to teach something. And I think it's this point that each thing deserves care and love and respect and awareness because each thing is it. Each appearance is the whole. And someone had kicked or moved, pushed the Zabatam with their foot. And there was a group of people standing around, one of the people being Steve Weintraub, and I think maybe Reb, and a couple other people, and Suzuki Roshi yelled at Steve Weintraub and said, do not move the Zabaton with your foot.

[39:26]

And Steve hadn't moved the Zabaton with his foot. So, yes, Roshi, you know that. But it was skill and means, like Suzuki Roshi, my understanding of that story is he was teaching somebody else about care, And you don't kick the Zabutans around, you know. And so he did that. He said it to Steve so the other person would hear. And probably knowing that Steve would just, okay, you know, wouldn't say like, don't yell at me, I didn't do that. Who are you talking to, you know? Just accept, okay, don't move the Zabutans. But that was his way of teaching someone else who maybe couldn't have taken that admonition or that feedback. I don't know. I don't know who he was talking to. I think Steve might know. And then there was another story that demonstrates not skill and means. I'm sorry the kitchen is going to not hear these next two stories.

[40:35]

I should talk fast so you can hear. One is Steve Weintraub, again, was hitting the Han with a toothpick hanging out of his mouth. This is at City Center, you know, calling people to Zazen, you got your toothpick, and you're just... And someone came by who will remain nameless and yanked the toothpick out of his mouth. That did not go over well. And the last one, the last one, Kitchen. You might know the story from Blanche. She was in Page Street, she was the soku, and she was carrying the tray, you probably know the story, and she had a cigarette. So she had the tray in one hand and her cigarette in the other on her way to the zendo, and she bumped into Suzuki Roshi, who was on his way to Orioki, and he went... He just shook his head. Yeah, okay, thank you. LAUGHTER I mean, we have come a long way.

[41:38]

Can you imagine the Soku bringing up the tray, coming up on their way to the Zen with a cigarette and the tray in one hand? I mean, and think about Suzuki Roshi, patience, you know, like, oh my goodness, these students I've got, oh my God. But I don't know. I think he just... He was, I think he must, had he been angry, you know, I don't think it would have been so skillful. I don't think people wanted to, they didn't, in the 60s, were not interested in lots of things like forms and precepts and rules. So to pass on the core of the teaching that's not dependent on, you know. really not dependent on whether you're smoking and carrying the Buddha tray or not. It's not dependent on that. To pass that along so that you understand how it is that we carry that tray.

[42:46]

To come to it without saying, without being angry because we didn't have a clue. Because the sincerity was there. There was no doubt. The sincerity was, and freshness and openness was there. So that pulling out the toothpick story, it's like the difference between that and the kind of shaking the head story. I don't know what Blanche did with her cigarette then. Where was she going to put it out? On the way to the Zendo? I don't know. Really dumb. Oh, dear. So the difference between whatever that was, that exchange, that skillful means exchange, and the grabbing that toothpick.

[43:48]

Although, you know, there was... you know, whatever the consequences of that, you know, I think lent itself to further practice a toothpick story. So I wasn't planning on talking about patients necessarily today, but I really felt the need for myself to pay attention to this and that discomfort, which is that kind of discomfort, that revulsion and kind of emotional, mental dis-ease about the externalities, about the objects of consciousness is not so usual.

[44:58]

It's more usual kind of interior mental things. So it was striking. It was striking to be working with that. So I wish all of you had a hosu at your place. that fanned each one of us while we're sitting just to help us. And at the same time, this is not a cliché. This is an opportunity to work on our edge of what our comfort level is and what it's about. Well, are there any questions or comments?

[46:30]

Thank you for letting me know that it's not just six flies on mine. I was wondering if it was just this part near the door, or is everybody, does everybody, is there anybody who's not having any flies on them? Okay, good. We're all in this together. We're all practicing with this together. I'm so happy. Do you know you have a fly in your forehead? Yes. Okay. Go ahead. Excuse me for interrupting. Yes, yes. And I think Sojun was talking about feedback, giving feedback and the importance of feedback. And a student raised her hand and she said, you know, I hate getting feedback.

[47:39]

It's just really hard for me, but somehow I don't mind when you do it. Why is that? And he said, because I really like you. And she said, that's it. That's exactly it. Yes. Yes. So when we lovingly and caring for a person give the feedback, the person, and we know too, we can receive it. Yeah. Or when we care very much for that person, you know, I think it goes both ways. And they... I'm watching it. Heading towards the... You know, I realize... I wanted to confess something. I haven't been doing posture suggestions, walking around the Zendo, and I was asking myself, why am I hesitating? What is it people appreciate it, I know? And also, you know, talking about the mudras, and I know that I've always appreciated someone coming and shifting, you know, the little turning up or...

[48:51]

noticing my thumbs or whatever. So what is it that I'm hesitating about? And maybe it's, maybe it's just that, you know. Do people understand it comes from love? And do people, you know, is there a flowing of loving feelings back and forth? And if not, then it's like, and I feel this sometimes from people like, would you please get your hands off me, you know, or some... resistance or pushing back. And same with feedback. So how do we, is there an understanding that it's lovingly offered and can it be lovingly received? So I just wanted you to know that I'm working with that myself. Thank you. Yes. or if you're not sure, is it best to just not say anything or talk to the practice leader?

[50:05]

Or if you're in a situation where there's not a practice leader... So this is in a situation where you're receiving feedback from someone? No, I'm thinking more someone has done something and you are not sure if you need to speak with them about it, but there's not... It's like, or it's someone you love, but the feelings are so strong. How long? This may be a situation-dependent thing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I would suggest that if it's not clear to you what's the best next step, then to talk with someone about it. Because sometimes in the talking, it becomes clear, oh, yeah, that's not in place yet, so that's why I'm waiting or whatever. So I think that's a helpful way to go, is to talk with somebody about it.

[51:09]

It doesn't have to be a practice leader. Sometimes just a friend will work, will do, but a practice leader is good, someone you trust. Yes. Regularly. Then how to compose myself around in that situation? Yes. So the situation is you've decided that the time is not right. The causes and conditions are not right to talk with this person. However, you live in a small valley or, you know, you're going to be seeing them. Right? Right. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Well, if you've decided that you really aren't going to talk about that thing, still there's ways to relate about other things.

[52:13]

Yes? And there's always, you know, right speech, meaning gentle speech, polite, you know, bowing if it's Dharma person or family member, polite. and respectful interactions, but not going too far, but not going away. Staying in relationship until the time is right. I think the tendency is to avoid, to get away, want to not. But if you feel like it's not time to bring it up, then there's many forms that are respectful and loving even. that you can adopt and, like, can I help with the dishes, you know, and relate still. I have no idea if this is speaking to what you're bringing up.

[53:15]

Yeah, okay. What was your question about the Hosu? I just was wondering, I've wondered about it ever since I came to the Venn Center. This is the first time I've heard any kind of explanation of what it is for. Is there a tradition around it or is this what it's for? You know where it says, the bringing about of enlightenment by the opportunity provided by a finger, a banner, a needle, or a mallet, or the occasions of a host, a whisk, a staffer shout. So I think the host who used to be carried, oh, I don't have one, like the kotsu, like the wooden stick, just carried as a sign of the authority in the temple, you know, or now I think, We carry it for ceremonies in which you're going to be making a dharma statement or giving precepts, something like that. But it is a symbol of compassion.

[54:16]

It's a fly whisk. The host is a whisk, but it's a fly whisk, meaning there's action, but it's out of compassion that you do what you need to do to the flies, right? So same with the hosu. And there's many stories. Fukanza Zenki, bringing about enlightenment by the opportunity provided by, there's stories where, you know, the master raises his whisk, you know, and says, do you understand? Right? This. So it has a, you know, it's got a history in that way. But also, I was at a beautiful show of African art. I don't remember what country, but maybe a variety of country. And they had flywits that looked almost exactly like this, made of, I don't know what the hair was, and decorated and beaded.

[55:24]

And they were these beautiful artifacts, you know, along with masks and different things. So, and I think it was the... tribal leader kind of person carried one. So it may have a wider, you know, place of origin. It may have several places of origin to create something like this. Yeah, yeah. Yes. suggestions, whether they've discerned that it may not be okay for them at the moment? Yes. Yes, we did that at the beginning. People were supposed to tell the jisha. And I'll say that again. Maybe if you don't want posture suggestion, please let the jisha know.

[56:36]

Yeah. I'm worried about this killing the flies with the tape. I was killing flies. I dropped some down. just in my room and just during naps, I would kill a fly. And when you're talking about the causes and conditions, I'm just, you know, it came up for me. Well, actually, it's a very long story, but there's a spider in my room, and then I thought, oh, I'd kill a fly and then I'd feed it to the spider, so I felt like I was doing some good. And then one day I saved a spider out of a honey bowl, or not a spider, a fly, and felt sad about all those spiders or flies, like, bed. It's a bad idea, a spider. And actually, you know, I felt guilty, I felt sad, but I also felt like, oh man, am I going to backslide into the animal realm and come back as a fly? And I wonder if, and I know many teachers have spoke about this, but it's a real fear for me, or I don't want to be practicing in vain, or... Can you speak to that, that fear about what are the causes and conditions of us possibly thinking of tapes, why us to get stuck on?

[57:47]

What are the causes and conditions of that? Or like what would happen after? The consequences of that. Is it worth it? I can't say and I don't know if anybody can say what the karma of that is, you know. I think, you know, what is the karma of plowing through myriad creatures, planting a row of lettuce, you know? The karma of our life, this is an important, this is a really important point, because we have, on the one hand, you can go the extreme, like the giants who, they strain their water, they don't eat anything, They don't eat figs because there's so much potential life there with all those seeds. They do their best not to, you know. So you can go that route. That is a choice in this human life.

[58:47]

And you can also not think about it at all, you know. It's like some attitude of who cares, you know, which people have too. It's just like it's not my concern. And then there's all the way in between, and we do garden, we farm, we kill vegetables, you know. And in this talking about what cannot be talked about, meaning this whole one body, is there anything that's being killed? in this one great body, is there anything lost? Now this way of talking about precepts really should only be brought up with people who have taken up the precepts, who are practicing the precepts, to bring up that side of the precepts, the emptiness of our literal understanding.

[59:57]

So each person has to make those decisions about being a vegetarian or not, or making their room comfortable. I know that I'm inspired by the stories of Ryokan and also Tibetan stories of the care with which they take out a fly from the shrine room. So we have to be willing to transgress, knowingly and willingly transgress, which is a bodhisattva practice. You know, we transgress, but it's knowingly and willingly, and we're willing to take the consequences. So it's, you know... Talking about life and death like this, I always feel I'm not, I don't want to sound cavalier or like I even know, you know?

[61:07]

I feel very humble in this discussion. And there will have to be a decision, you know, of what to do. And our Dahi Shindirana, you know, that we chant every day, is the Durrani of great compassion, and it includes all beings, you know, all the beings that we have inadvertently killed, you know, just by washing our hands, you know. So we're not, we're never going to be scot-free, you know, from this. And how do we knowingly and willingly practice with this and avow and confess? I think that's all I can say. Yeah. That helps. I feel like it was a little, I actually felt really superficial about not wanting to share the karma of a spider or, you know, come back and be a fly.

[62:12]

I felt like, oh, like, you're too good to be a fly or too, you know. So this phrase knowingly transgressed, I think I'd ever heard that, or I'd never stop. Yeah. knowingly and willingly, yeah. Eric? The knowingly part of that is what gets me, I think. I often feel pretty close to the I don't care end of the scale. But I don't care, but because I don't know, I think, I've just heard some Buddhist story that this is thick or calmer and there might be some consequences, but my own inclination is it's just a fly or something. Or like, sometimes I have some feeling, like, When you talk about being inspired by those examples, I remember some heart feeling. It's kind of enjoyable taking that kind of care. Most of the time I don't remember that feeling. And I'm a little bit dubious about it, actually, when I don't have that feeling.

[63:16]

I think, well, you're just being soft-headed or something. Yeah, so how can we knowingly and willingly transgress? It feels like we're talking about legends or something, or old myths. Well, I think knowingly and willingly transgresses getting a flyswatter from Keith and just, I don't know if we even have flyswatters at Tassajara, you know, and just like when the Chinese got rid of rats, you know, in China, there was, I think, Mao, Tung said, everybody has to bring like 10 rats or something, and everybody, man, woman, child, had to capture, and they rid, you know, they just did it. So, you know, that's one way to just, I think that question of feeling dubious like or soft, if I feel that, if something arises where I actually feel,

[64:25]

Like, it matters to me? And feeling dubious about that? Like, is that... Not at the time I'm feeling it. I mean, like right now, this morning, when I suggested buying a flyswatter from Keith. Yes, yes. I guess I sort of... I wasn't having that feeling. I guess I can just... I'm inclined to trust my feelings at the time. Yeah. Well, knowingly and willingly, to me, is... that if we do the fly strips or even covering in the compost means that all their eggs and everything are going to not make it or the ones covering with plastic and heating it up. Or heating up Shogun's cabin the other day to 130 and killing the whatever might have been there. Anyway, that's knowingly and willingly we're going to kill now.

[65:42]

It's knowing it rather than, oh, how did that happen? Go ahead. A lot of people knowingly and willingly kill in the Buddhist tradition. I think that's it to be bad karma. Yeah, knowingly and willingly take on whatever the consequences are of your actions, basically. And, I mean, it's said that the bodhisattva comes into this world and takes rebirth knowingly and willingly. I mean, that the bodhisattva returns out of compassion and the vow to save all beings. And so they knowingly and willingly. It's not by karma where somehow they end up here. They knowingly and willingly. So I think knowing that the consequences, maybe the consequences are just I feel heart sick. Maybe that's the consequence, you know.

[66:43]

And it doesn't feel so great, but I'm going to do it anyway because it's gotten to a point where we have to do something, and I will do that. So there's that very famous story of the ship captain who killed the murderer because he knew the murderer was going to kill everybody on ship. This is one of these skill and means stories. It's in the Kushala, the Upaya Kaushala Sutra as a skill and means and knowingly and willingly transgressed for the overall purpose. better situation for everybody. So that, it's realizing there may be consequences that may not be so favorable one way or the other. So if we're... I think if that's part of it, then there's our practice mind is there.

[67:50]

If it's done... out of hate or disgust, you know, rather than I'm sorry that what's come to this, then I think that's maybe worse karma. That's more negative to be filled with hate and disgust and kill than I'm sorry, but it's gone too far. You have multiplied too many and we can't exist together anymore. And I'm sorry. That mind is a different, that's a different intention, really. Yeah. Yes, Mary, and then Caitlin. Do the fly strips have like a poison in them? Will the fly die quickly or are they just going to be stuck there for some time? I don't know the nature of the adhesive. worse than fly swatting.

[68:57]

Yeah. OK. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Caitlin. Yeah. I just wanted to share something that came up for me. It was accepting responsibility for the consequences maybe might be the difference. Or earlier, we were talking about there's nobody to blame. And that idea of responsibility came up for me, too. Maybe there's nobody to blame, but we can all take responsibility for the way things come to be. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Take your responsibility. I think that's very, very, very important. I will take it on. I'll take the responsibility for each of us. Or even just responsibility. Yes, yes. I think when we say, oh, you made me so angry, oh, those flies made me so disgusted, they didn't do that.

[70:06]

You didn't make me angry. I take responsibility for anger arising in me or disgust. They had nothing, they really had nothing to do with it besides having to be there on my eggs. But the disgust arises in me. They didn't make me disgusted. And to know that where it comes from, the anger that I take responsibility and not to look outside for somebody else. Yeah. There was one more here and then we're going to end. Yes, Shogun. With what? Yes, yes. I feel like there's a difference there, because in one case, you're actually, your intention is to kill the mice, whereas when you're farming, your intention is to kill the things you're trying to plant the garden.

[71:20]

It feels like there's a difference there. Well, I think the intention, there's also the intention to make a livable, habitable practice center for beings, right? And that the food be healthy and not, you know, that's the intention. And part of that intention means we have to take care of the vermin or the rodents or whatever. Yes. So there is a, if your intention was just to kill mice, it would be more like a cat or something, or, you know, where... They're not interested in making habitable spaces. We use them for habitable space making, but they're just interested in killing might. So I think, yeah. Is there anything else we could try before resorting to something like that?

[72:33]

I could probably take most of these flies outside in a couple of hours, but you could certainly. Take them out. Yeah. And the last thing I wanted to say about the flies, I remember swatting over the tree in Mozambique one time. The sun was right overhead and there was no roof and I could see all this shimmering that was so beautiful and I realized it was larger than flies. think about that here with these flies, and it doesn't seem as dangerous because we don't have all the penetration. It's not like these flies are coming from human waste and getting our food. Yeah. So it could be worse. Yeah. I mean, we do have scat. You know, we have wild animal stuff around, right? And so... There is that, but you're right. It's not like in certain situations where it would be really a health hazard. Yeah?

[73:36]

They don't like it. I'll try that. I'll try that. Okay. Well, thank you all very much for your attention and your additional comments and questions. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[74:09]

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