This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. So, I hope everyone has lost track of time. just following the next thing, one after the other, without worrying too much. A number of people have mentioned to me how much they've appreciated the schedule. Probably the people who haven't appreciated the schedule haven't mentioned that. Three or four people have just said how

[01:01]

even though they had some resistance to it, not having the exercise period and so forth, that actually they're appreciating it very much. And I am too, yeah. I have a few kind of, just things I wanted to bring up that have occurred to me in the last couple days and then continue on with our San Sui Kyo, the next paragraph or so. if we can get to it. Having this long meditation on water, reading these paragraphs over and over and trying to get a feel for what Dogen is teaching and also the commentary, what they're saying. I've realized that I haven't been drinking very much water. which I had mentioned, I think, before the sesheen started, that tiredness can be associated with not drinking enough water.

[02:05]

And I realized I was just drinking the spirit water, the water with which we wash our bowls. I've been drinking like a half cup and tea and maybe one glass of water. And I don't think that's such a good idea. I'm going to try and drink more water, just to let you know. And maybe you've noticed also, maybe you haven't been drinking that much water. Just to let you know, the Jisha Maria found some nesting material that fell out of, right in front of the Kaisando, behind the calligraphy, that placard, some nesting material kind of draping down from that and some on the stone. And it may be that the canyon wren has chosen that again, I think three years ago, maybe in 2009.

[03:08]

2009, the canyon wren had a nest right there in the Kaisando. And the other day we heard it quite a bit for several minutes, right close. So it may be nesting there. We'll see what happens. And this is the time of year, right, that birds are making nests. Is that true? And the other day, somehow, when the servers came and Aaron and I were holding out our bowls, we were like, little birds are... I was just picturing, you know, the birds coming back and just sort of stuffing food down our little open throats. But it was just the bowls were like little open throats. Anyway... So I've been told there's a kind of parallel sashim going on here. There's a sewing sashim that's happening in the dining room during all the breaks.

[04:12]

Lots of people are sewing, and it's with energy and quietness. So coming right out of the zendo, out of a meal, going into the dining room for sewing. So I didn't realize how many people are practicing sewing. Let's see, what else did I want to tell you randomly? Oh, yeah. I've been bringing up a number of lectures. I brought up The Wind of the Family House, these traditions or particular spirit of practice that goes along with a group of... and that's passed on, and I've mentioned a number of things. And someone mentioned to me that during the sesheen they've been thinking about the wind of their own family house, what was passed on in their own family of origin, what ways and customs and traditions that were not necessarily

[05:30]

ways to wake up and ways to live a skillful life, but some other kinds of wins. And I think during Sashin this can be very vivid, you know, unfinished business relationships, very important relationships that are need attention, need our honoring and attention, and we haven't maybe been ready or willing or able to give the attention we need. And I feel like our practice, in a very subtle way, a very deep way, we can discover that we are ready, that we've let go of fears and let go of uncertainties and can have some conversations we need to have or make clear what we need to make clear, make amends, sort out some things.

[07:00]

And I think this happens in a very natural way. I don't think we have to really work on it in a very like as an object of our meditation exactly, I think there's a natural way that these kinds of things settle and become clear. And I don't think we need to be embarrassed or feel like these are trivial things. I think these things are huge in our life, huge karmic formations that and this is in this section on water, this one of the first paragraphs, how we perceive the world, you know. So, so much of our wind of the family house is the structure from which we see the world and how to see that it is structure, it is a

[08:04]

a story that's been built and created, but that we can see it as story, see it as created structure and not necessarily the way things are or have to be forever and ever, that they're flowing. So I wanted to mention something that happened yesterday, and the reason I was meditating on it is because of one of these paragraphs which comes up a little later, but I'll bring it up now and then we can come back to it. It was time to do the spirit offering for lunch, and we had potatoes in the Buddha bowl, roasted potatoes.

[09:14]

I confess that one of my potato pieces had a kind of brown spot on it. And I looked at it and I wasn't sure whether that was a good crunchy roasted spot or whether that was an overlooked, should be cut away and put in the compost spot. And because of my eyesight, I wasn't going to kind of get down into my bowl to examine it. But when it came time for the spirit offering, I thought, oh, I'll choose that potato to give to the spirits. Or that part of the potato. So I, at that time in the ceremony, I broke off this. But then I thought, what kind of a spirit offering is that to be making? The worst, what you... I didn't know for sure, but I thought it might be like an unedible piece of potato.

[10:21]

And I was going to give that to the spirits. In fact, I did give it to the spirits. And then I thought, is that our practice, you know, giving away? It often is. In fact, somebody recently told me, oh, it was Tia in her, you know, she had to give a gift, so she looked around for what she didn't want anymore, right? which she confessed to us, and so I'm confessing to you. But then I thought, how would the spirits view it? Do they think it's not a good thing to eat? Or for them, do they not even know what it is? It's just been offered. So anyway, I got very involved with realizing I can't know what the spirits think about that piece of potato. But I know what I think, which is that I thought it was probably inedible and I gave it away, which is, you know, I find it very small-minded, you know, because I could have done something else, like left it in my bowl, put it in my, wrapped it up, taken it away, something else.

[11:43]

And at the ceremony where we offer this food as an offering to choose the unwanted as the offering was really very embarrassing. And I think the reason I even had this inner conversation about how do the spirits view it is because of what we're about to study. Can we know? what other beings think of it. I think, you know, another animal might have thought, oh, delicious, you know, Razi at Green Gulch. Do you know Razi? Razi brings home the most, you know, and rolls in like the more, just finds things to wallow in and that, as a human being, I stay away from it. Razi really enjoys being immersed.

[12:46]

So I realize different beings view water and potatoes, and I can't know. But I can know what my intention was in giving. That I can be aware of and be clear about. And the excuse that, oh, the spirits don't mind. They don't even know what it is. They think it's... They think it's a luscious piece or whatever. That's just making excuses for not practicing impeccably. So I got a chance to meditate on that yesterday with the offering. I also was thinking yesterday in the same way about... different beings and different karmic consciousness, how beings view water when we were taking our meditation, walking meditation.

[13:49]

And I realized, for me, I think what I realized that when I was a young person, like in grade school, I used to love certain gains, like follow the leader. Do you know how to play follow the leader? Somebody gets to be the leader, and then they flap their arms, and then everybody in the whole line flaps, and then they change, they do something else, and everybody. I just thought that was so much fun, to be the leader and be the follower, see what they're going to come up with next. And also, I realize when I see a tree or anything round, it has to be circled. And I like going around it and seeing... other people going around it together, and it's like, oh, this is just karmic consciousness, you know? It's like, other people may feel like, can we just go for a walk here? Why does she insist upon going around in circles or whatever?

[14:51]

But I find that really enjoyable, and I realized that yesterday, or after the two walks. And also in Green Gulch, we have the herbal circle. It's just perfect for going around. Plus, when you go around the herbal circle, those of you who know the herbal circle, it has chamomile planted all around it. So as you walk, you tread on the chamomile and macerate it. You press it like in a mortar and pestle with your feet, and it gives off just delightful smell. So not only are you enjoying the movement of walking, and then you have this... divine smell of the chamomile being pressed as you walk. You have to go around it a couple times to have it really emit. So I like to do that and not tell people that we're going to do what's going to happen and then they're mmm, you know. Anyway, this is all karmic consciousness.

[15:55]

This is different beings and somebody else will take another kind of walk. They might go up to Suzuki Roshi Yasha's side or something at a fast pace. So today when we were reciting the reading and reciting the Genjo Koan and we got to the place about those who have great realization about delusion are Buddhists. Those who have great... delusion about realization are sentient beings. And it just occurred to me that these mountains and waters sutra, especially this park that we're coming to, which I find very, you know, very smooth, you know, no handholds. What I felt today was Dogen is helping us

[16:59]

to have great realization about delusion, great realization about delusion, great realization about how it is that we, what we're swimming in all the time. And when we understand that and study that and understand it as delusion, then we can be freed from that. I'm understanding this sutra as helping us to study our delusions. So, I think before we start this next paragraph, I came upon this poem The mother is the blue mountain and the white clouds are her children, or the children, and the children are white clouds.

[18:03]

All day long they are together, yet they do not know who is the mother and who are the children. And I think I said that was Dogen, but it isn't. It's Tozan, Tozan Ryokai Dayo Sho, who, you know, the toe of Soto is Tozan. And I also talked with him about, when talking about the wind of the family house, that Yunyan, his teacher, Dongshan's teacher Yunyan, Dozan's teacher Ungan Dongjo, you know, he made offerings to him because he didn't explain everything. He didn't teach him anything or everything. So he... This particular teacher is one of the... that quality of his practice.

[19:04]

You know, he's in the lineage, and those particular qualities kind of come from Tozan, certain ones. So this was his poem. The mother is the blue clouds and the children... The mother is the blue mountain and the children are the white clouds. All day long they are together. And I just... came upon Suzuki Roshi's little commentary on that poem, which, that's the way things go, you know. So he says, he translates it a little differently. Tozan, a famous Zen master, said, The blue mountain is the father of the white cloud. And I think it can be either way. So I'll use father here. The blue mountain is the father of the white cloud. The white cloud is... is the sun of the Blue Mountain, or the children. All day long they depend on each other without being dependent on each other. The white cloud is always the white cloud.

[20:08]

The Blue Mountain is always the Blue Mountain. This is a pure, clear interpretation of life. There may be many things like the white cloud and blue mountain, man and woman, teacher and disciple. They depend on each other, but the white cloud should not be bothered by the blue mountain. The blue mountain should not be bothered by the white cloud. They are quite independent, but yet dependent. This is how we live and how we practice Zazen. So our Sazen of being both independent and dependent, being still and flowing, being in our Dharma position and walking, and not being bothered by either.

[21:13]

All day long together, big mind, small mind. parent and child. All day long together. So, moving on in our San Sui Kyo, we have this paragraph, water is neither strong nor weak, neither wet nor dry, neither moving nor still, neither cold nor hot, neither being nor non-being, neither delusion nor enlightenment. Frozen, I think this might be a typo, it says it harder, which when we read it, we might want to say it is or it's, because I think it

[22:26]

I think it's a typo. Frozen, it's harder than diamond. Who could break it? Melted, it is softer than milk. Who could break it? And Cleary translates that milk as whey. And I'm not sure what the character is, but it might be the same character as, you know, ripens the cream of the long river that... which is a kind of fermented milk that was very medicinal. I'm not sure it's the same character, so I don't want to go into it too much, but ripens the cream of the Long River. It's this kind of like kefir. It's a kind of fermented milk thing that was fermented with herbs and given as medicine. So anyway, melted. It's softer than milk or whey. Who could break it? So it starts out with, you know, water is, what can you say about water?

[23:38]

And it reminded me of the, you know, the people groping for the elephant and saying, which is in Fukanza Zengi, right? That last line about, and that story about blind children number of blind people with an elephant and they say, describe the elephant. One says, oh, it's rough and stumpy or something. And the other one says it's long and smooth, you know, touching the tusk or it's whatever, depending on your experience, depending on your karmic consciousness, depending on your perspective, where you're standing, what you're using to... be in relationship with whatever it is, you say it's whatever you say. And to say water is neither strong nor weak, you know, the dropping of water over millennia on a rock brings, you know, makes

[24:52]

concavities, you know. Is that strong? Is that weak? It's neither wet nor dry. Okamura Roshi brings up, you might say, well, water's always wet. It's wet, but water takes many forms. And he was talking about the snow in Minnesota. For those of us from Minnesota, sometimes in the winter when it's so cold, the snow is like flour. It's dry. You know, it's powder, right? Those of you who ski or live in powdery, it's not wet. It's a dryness. So water's neither wet nor dry, neither moving nor still, ultimately, right? And neither cold nor hot, neither being nor non-being, um... meaning neither form nor emptiness, neither delusion nor enlightenment.

[25:55]

So he moves from that to water as, you know, you could say our own lives are also neither this nor that, nor strong nor weak, nor... It's all in relation to what our perspective is and where we are. I was thinking about the fact that this practice period has a wide range of ages. We have over 40-year range between the youngest and the oldest member of the practice period. And we're all pretty much doing the exact same thing. And each of us is experiencing that. For some people, I think for everybody, this is a rigorous, it's a strenuous, rigorous, vigorous practice life. for whatever age you are. But if you're 25 or 23, that experience is different than if you're in your 60s.

[27:02]

And I can really feel the difference. And for me at almost 65, noticing the, you know, what's going on with my knees while I'm bowing and how I have to use my hands now, which didn't used to be the case, you know, just used to be able to go up and didn't think about it, you know, just zoop, zoop. But then I think of my mother at 65, I don't think she could walk very far, actually, you know, so... Is that strong? Is it weak? Is it compared to who? Looking at it from what angle is it? What is it? You can't say. You can't say what it is. So, frozen, it's harder than diamond. And Menzan, this particular commentator on Dogen, says this, harder than diamond and melted is softer than milk.

[28:14]

he says the diamond is referring to the unchanging true suchness, harder than diamond, like the vajra, vajra, you know, the diamond, thunderbolt, you know, harder than diamond, unchanging suchness, true suchness, or what, the dharmakaya, you know, just... And then the milk is conditioned true suchness, so this is like... the mountain and the clouds. Each are true suchness and each have different qualities, one like diamond, one like milk. But who could break it? True suchness. Also this neither wet nor dry might be referring to Tozan walking with his disciple, They were walking together, crossing a river, and Tozan said to his disciple, how deep is it?

[29:23]

And Yun Zhu in Chinese said, it's not wet. They were crossing the river, how deep is it? It's not wet. And Tozan said, you rustic. Another translation was, you dolt. I don't know what the character is, but anyway. And he said, well, what would you say, Master? And Dung San said, not dry. Not dry. Not dry. Not dry. Water. So neither wet nor dry might be referring to that, or just these dichotomies, these dualisms, these comparative things that we set up. And what this is pointing to is that water, and not only water, but water is what Dogen is using for this.

[30:26]

Everything is beyond wet and dry, strong, weak, tall and short. And you can't say any of those things about anything and about us in our life in a definitive, you know, this is it, manner, because everything is beyond those dichotomies or those dualisms. All dharmas are marked by emptiness, emptiness of anything you can say about them. And they have conventional existence. So we can talk about You know, my clothes are wet and I'm going to dry them on the line. There's no problem with that. In fact, because they are empty of abiding self, they can move from wet to dry. They can walk.

[31:29]

That's brought to us by emptiness. If there was substantialness, if you had wet clothes and there was no emptiness, that'd be it. you'd have to put them on wet. That just reminded me of something. This sashim that I sat once, and it was when we only had one sashim, it was the end of the practice period, and there was a flurry of activity getting ready for the big seven-day sashim, and I really wanted my oryogi claws washed, and they didn't dry in time. So I thought, well, they'll just, you know, my lab napkin was like really wet. So I thought, well, I've got layers on, you know, it'll be fine. So when I brought it in, it was cold, it was winter, and I undid my lap cloth and opened it up across my lab, this wet cloth.

[32:32]

And pretty soon, you know, it began to seep through all the layers. You know, if you look at cloth under a microscope, it's like, you know, there's like big holes in between the threads. It's not like... And it got wet. I got colder and colder with this wet... Can you imagine? And we didn't have any heat. You know, it was like this... Chilled, you know, putting a wet blanket on you. Anyway... So you'd have to wear it wet. If there was no emptiness, things would be stuck. I mean, you can't even imagine what it would be because all things are empty of separate self and own being. They are endlessly evolving and changing according to circumstances. So that's why we can have mending and washing our clothes and everything else that we do is brought to you by emptiness, brought to us by emptiness, sponsored.

[33:42]

So, water, we have, but we have these notions, this is our delusion, we think, I know what water is. And I think this whole meditation on water is loosening our, not just about water, but about realization and practice and who we are and who other people are beginning to loosen this through this meditation. This is what's been happening for me. So water is beyond these dualisms, just the way we are and all things are. And yet we have conventional life. So this next paragraph is, this being the case, we cannot doubt the many virtues realized by water. So I think he's now going to deal with water, talk about water in a similar way as he talked about mountain with virtues.

[34:50]

We should study the occasion when water of the ten directions is seen in the ten directions. I think, well, maybe I'll read this paragraph and then kind of go back. When water in the ten directions is seen in the ten directions, this is not a study only of the time when humans or gods see water. There is a study of water seeing water. Water practices and verifies water. Hence, there is a study of water telling of water. We must bring to realization the road on which the self encounters the self. We must move back and forth along and spring off from the vital path on which the other studies and fully comprehends the other.

[35:53]

There's really a lot there in this paragraph, and the things that I want to bring up are, in particular, this thing of encountering the self encounters the self. and where that story comes from, and also this studying water in the ten directions. So when the water of the ten directions is seen in the ten directions, is enjoining us or having us understand that our perspective of water as being one way or another is not wide enough, And when we see it from our narrow-minded or tunnel vision or looking through a straw, actually somebody told me they used to not look just through a straw, they used to look through a toothpick. She said, this person said, if you drilled a hole with some tiny, tiny, little, tiny drill through a toothpick, that's how they were looking at the world.

[37:01]

I thought that was a pretty strong image. of microscopic, practically tunnel-village, vision. So we cannot doubt the many virtues realized by water. We should study the occasion when water of the ten directions is seen in the ten directions. So I have been going over and over and over, and I have various commentaries about what this means. So this is Bielfeld quoting one of the commentaries. We must study how to go beyond our ordinary view of water and see the true water of Buddhism, the water free from all limitations. The water that's free from all limitations, neither strong nor weak, etc., permeates the ten directions of the Dharma Datu.

[38:08]

the realm of the Dharma. So this water of the ten directions, that's beyond our view of it, according to our karmic consciousness, is the water of the reality of our life, is water as reality of our life. as we've been talking about when we were talking about mountains, the reality of our life is always our relationship of the myriad dharmas, in the midst of the myriad dharmas, one single body, and how we relate self and other. This is kind of our Genjo Koan, the 10,000 things. And I loved reading Genjo Koan this morning. seeing the reflections of that teaching in San Sui Kyo, carrying the self forward and trying to bring ourself into the myriad things, our small self, karmic consciousness, or allowing the 10,000 things to come forward and realize themselves.

[39:34]

This is about delusion and realization. And it's the same with this water. The water on the occasion when water of the ten direction is seen in the ten directions where the water sees itself not through a narrow view. So we see things from our narrow point of view and if we don't have, often if, we sometimes don't even see things at all unless there's lots of self involved. So we have our desires and preferences

[40:37]

And when we have desires for things and we want something, that thing, we give it way more value. We give it lots and lots of, and it looks actually bigger and more beautiful. You know, if we have an interest in a particular person, they become, it's like the room revolves around them. They are just the cat's meow, right? And we don't even notice other people. if it's a teacher or a person we're interested in or a good friend, you know, they become much bigger than other people, more they take on. And the same thing if we don't like something, they become much bigger and they dominate the room. Oh, there they are, I better move over here. And when we are attracted and are averting from things, it pushes us around quite a bit.

[41:41]

We think, oh, I'm ignoring that person. But actually, in order to ignore somebody, you have to track where they are at all times. It's true. Oh, they're going to the coffee-tea area. I'm going to go over into the back of the dining room. If you weren't trying to ignore them, you'd think, oh, I'm ignoring them. But actually, you're completely keeping them in mind all the time. You're not ignoring them. And they're bigger than life. They're, ooh, it means I can't go here. They're taking a bath now. Forget it. I'll go later. You know, it's like your whole life gets pushed around by ignoring somebody or the opposite. Oh, hmm, let's see. They're going for a walk. Maybe I'll go too. I didn't really want to go for a walk, but I think I will, you know. Anyway, so this, um, our preferences and our views begin to, um, either pushing or pulling, dominate and push us around like a leaf in the wind by the eight winds.

[42:50]

Pleasure and pain, profit and loss, good reputation, bad reputation, and I always forget the last one. But you can fill in the blank. Anyway, some kind of like or dislike. If that's how we're choosing to act from those things, then we're just pushed around by those preferences all the time. So water of the ten directions is seen in the ten directions, not seeing things from our particular point of view. Well, how do we not do that? Well, one practice is allowing the ten thousand things to come forward and be what they are. and let them go and not push or pull. This is zazen, allowing the thus come one to thus come.

[43:51]

So in our zazen practice, we can practice with something comes up, we let it go. This is neither pushing nor pulling. This is free of pushing and pulling. It doesn't destroy having a thought that you like something or dislike it. That's fine. But the thought comes, makes itself, does its dance, and you say, hmm, and let it go. You don't push. Get out of here. I'm not supposed to have preferences. That's karmic consciousness. Goodbye. It is what it is, but we're not moved by it. So this is on the occasion of studying the Ten Directions. This is what I'm understanding from it and from what the commentary is saying. So letting go of these views about what it is, realizing how could I know what it is?

[44:58]

It's changing with conditions. This is so true. You know, you have a big, giant piece of chocolate cake, and you start eating it, it's just the greatest thing, and if it's too big, about three-quarters through, you have, what's it called, mouth fatigue or something, where it's like it doesn't taste so good anymore, you don't want it, and in fact, ooh, take it away, I don't want to see it anymore, right? This has happened to us. Is it the chocolate cake? Is it... us? How can that wonderful, delectable thing all turn into something that, ah, I can't see that anymore? Right? This happens. This is flowing and so we substantialize things. Ooh, I love chocolate cake. Well, we love it if conditions are right. If you're feeling, if you've got the flu, all you want is a little soda cracker and some

[46:03]

a saltine, that's it, chocolate cake, oh my God, take it away. So this contact that we have with our perceptions and with the objects of the world and our relationship with them is to be clear about how this works. What else do we have here? So this, this is not a study only of the time when humans or God see water. There is a study of water seeing water. And Kaz translates that as, this is not merely studying the moment when humans and heavenly beings see water. This is studying the moment when water sees water. And, you know,

[47:08]

Okamura Roshi says, how can water see water? And then he attempts to make a commentary on it. And in reading it over and over, what I came away with was Water seeing water is another way of saying, you know, self and the 10,000 things or the 10,000 things come forth and realize themselves. Our relationship, self and the myriad things, we are part of the myriad things. We are a myriad thing. We set it up as self and the myriad things or self and other. in actual fact, we are part of the myriad things. We're just one of the myriad things who happens to be doing study of the myriad things.

[48:13]

That's our full expression. That's our coming forth, realizing ourself, is our practice and study. So you could say the myriad things see the myriad things, or the water sees water. We do studying of the myriad things. This is our self-see-self. So we make the separation in our imagination. We imagine that we're separate, but water doesn't make that imagination. Water studies water, the water of this particular moment and the water that's empty of this particular moment. he's calling water steadies water or sees water. So we're actually beyond this duality ourselves and in our practice, to feel that our practice is

[49:31]

the water or the mountain, I think either one living out its life of water or mountain. We live out our human life and as part of the universe. So it's our unique way of being a universe, universing or life-lifing in this unique form. So that's kind of what I've come to from this, going over this. You know, Suzuki Roshi and many teachers say, completely express yourself. Our zazen is a complete expression of ourself. Completely be yourself. Find out what that is to completely be yourself. And what we find out is, we find, or as we talked about earlier, settle the self on the self and let the flower of your life force bloom, this small self completely settled and expressing is expressing the big self in its unique small self way.

[50:46]

So this, I think, is this water seeing water, water completely being water. And that's the next sentence. Water practices and verifies water. Hence, there's a study of water telling water, is Bielfeld and Kaz. Because water practices and realizes water, water expresses water. And clearly, because water cultivates and realizes water, there is the investigation of water expressing water. So... I've just been bringing these back to water being a way of talking about our true selves, fully expressing our true selves. When the self truly expresses the self, the whole universe is expressed. This is the last part that I'll do, I think.

[52:01]

It says, we must bring to realization the road on which the self encounters the self. We move back and forth along and spring off from the vital path. This is a phrase Dogen used, the vital path of total emancipation, the vital path, a live path of which... the other studies and fully comprehends the other. We must bring to realization the road on which the self encounters the self. To me, is this encountering the self, encountering the self. There's the story of Tozan, I've been talking about, and his enlightenment, which is one of my favorite stories. I was lucky enough, some of you know this, to go to China in the year 2000 and visit, it was to visit the ancestors' temples, various ancestors, and we went to Tozan's temple, which was, we went from his teacher Yunnan's temple, and then we went to Tozan's temple, and it was an eight hour bus ride over bumpy back roads to get to Tozan's temple.

[53:23]

And we crossed over a bridge there on the approach to the temple called Encounter It. And there's a bridge over a stream. And we got to walk over that and look down in the stream, which is what Tozan did. And I'll tell you this story. And I think this is bringing to realization the road on which the self encounters the self. And I think this is... Tozan's story. So when he was taking leave of Yunnan, Yunnan said, where are you going? And he said, I don't know. And he said, are you going to Hunan? And he said, no. Are you going back home? No. And then Yunnan said, it will be hard to see each other again if you go. And Tozan said, it will be hard not to see each other again. And then... Tozan said, if people ask me about your truth, what shall I tell them?

[54:29]

And Yunnan waited for a moment, he paused, and then he said, just this is it. And... The detail of this story, the fact that he paused, he waited a while and said, just this is it. And then Dengshan or Tozan also paused and it says he was sunk deep in thought. And then Yunnan said, you are in charge of this great matter. You must be most thoroughgoing. This is part of the wind of the family house, you know. You're in charge of this. You see on your own. You have to practice this. Nobody can do this for you. You're in charge of this. You must be most thoroughgoing. So then in the surah it said Dung Shan left his teacher's temple and then went crossing a stream.

[55:36]

But that stream that he crossed was eight hours by bus away. from Yunnan's temple. It must have taken him on foot months to get through these mountains. And all the while, I think he was turning, just this is it. Just this is it. Another translation is just this person. Just this is it. And then, as he was crossing this stream, he looked down in the stream and he saw his reflection. And that's when he had his great realization and then he wrote a verse to commemorate this, which is just

[56:39]

Don't seek from others or you will be far estranged from yourself. I now go on alone. Everywhere I go, I encounter it. It now is me. I now am not it. You must understand it. in this way to accord with suchness. Or you must understand in this way to merge with thusness. So I now go on alone. Or before that, you must not seek from others or you will be far estranged from yourself. No seeking after or you'll be just estranged from yourself. Estranged from just this is it.

[57:43]

I now go on alone. Everywhere I go I encounter it. It now is me. I now am not it. It now is me. I now am not it. You must understand in this way to merge with thusness or accord with thusness. So I always thought, you know, it says, it now is me, and then why doesn't it say, I am now it? It now is me, I am now it. That makes sense. It now is me, I am now it. That's all perfect now. But in order to merge or in order to accord with thusness, thusness is not like that. Thusness is more subtle, you know, and inconceivable. It now is me. I now am not it. You have to understand in that way, all day long, the blue mountains and the white clouds are together, completely dependent and completely independent.

[58:54]

And the white clouds do their totally fabulous, unique things all day long. I now am not it. It now is me. So we must bring to realization the road on which the self encounters the self. It now is me. I now am not it. And we move back and forth along and spring off from the vital path on which the other studies and fully comprehends the other. it now as me, as self and other, self and the myriad things, understanding this, understanding, having great realization about delusion. So that's what I wanted to bring up with you all today, bring up with myself today.

[60:07]

And this is a, I think of this as a meditation instruction. You know, when he said to his teacher, what shall I say if anybody asks me what your reality is or your truth? And he said, that's all I could say. This is Yunnan, who didn't explain anything, and he didn't explain the whole thing to me. Just this is it. Can we act? that in our practice. Just this is it. So is there anything anyone would like to bring up? I just want to mention some people have felt they can't bring things up in class or in lecture and have written me notes and and longer than notes about their understanding of what's been presented.

[61:12]

So I just want to encourage you, to those of you who haven't been bringing things up, if you just put it out. I'm sure you must be thinking something about something. But if it is also just being quiet too, that's okay too. Yes? I kind of, I didn't quite follow, I think you were, we were studying a lot, we should study the occasion with a wire in the head direction, the scene in the head direction. And you're talking about how some of you take off kind of a proportion, a larger proportion, like fill the room. And, you know, I guess I want to go to two things. How does this suture relate to that? How do we practice with that? Not just in instances, but for months, years at a time.

[62:20]

Yes. Well, how that happens, you know, if we look at... the wheel, the dependently co-arisen wheel, you can study how that happens through the eye contact and our karma, ignorance, belief in self, karma formation. So we have affinities and karma that attracts us to some things and what's the opposite of attract, repels us from other things. Those are, this is through all sorts of experiences and all sorts of things that have formed these karmic end choices.

[63:21]

And so how that happens is, and then if we want to talk about the alaya, the storehouse consciousness, the seeds of those Those experiences are like seeds, like bija, that when conditions are right, they germinate, and this particular person you feel is really worthy of your full-on attention, and somebody else doesn't even notice them in the room. Who are you talking about? I didn't see anybody. So this is unique karmic life. so ignorance, karma affirmations, consciousness, name and form, and contact, feeling. You have the five skandhas. You've got the feeling skanda where it's pleasant, unpleasant, and you've got contact of the sense organs and the sense consciousness. So if you want to study how that works, there's a way that this unfolds.

[64:25]

And then we say, well, And then all the actions that fall from that, that can be skillful or unskillful. And other things fall from that, quarrels and fighting and grief and all sorts of things. So lamentation and pain. So how do we work with our, how, when these things arise, can we study them? Can we study them? Not from this narrow point of view, but from the ten direction and the wide view of what just happened. Or are my actions following from karma or are they following from my vow? My vow to live and be lived for the benefit of others. So we can study that. We can bring that to bear on the situation. It's very powerful.

[65:28]

you know, especially attractions between people, and the chemistry of that is enormously powerful, and yet it can be worked with skillfully, just like other kinds of powerful things, like fire. You know, you can handle it skillfully, and you can handle it unskillfully. Water and water. In contrast to the way humans move, we feel like we're not water and water. We feel like we're separate. We have a big problem. But animals don't have other. And I feel the resonance with this, you know, water, seeing water. Or a fish.

[66:31]

swimming like a fish. And he said this in his short book, The Theory of Religion, and his point was that religion is always an attempt to become like an animal moving in the world, like water, moving in water, to belong, to not perceive that. that we have a breakfast. Thank you, thank you. Tell me the name of the person again. George Pataille. George Pataille, George Pataille. Yeah. You know, there's a shikishi, a square for calligraphy that I made for Graham, and it's one mind-like

[67:32]

one mind like water, one mind like water, which is a Zen saying. And Graham put it up during the fire, actually it was on the altar in the dining room, right? Although my calligraphy was, I had made a mistake in the calligraphy, and so it actually didn't read that. What's the name of the author of the book? monks, Colleen, who knows calligraphy, asked me about it. She was saying, Graham said this was up during that, but I know calligraphy a little bit. But the character, the kanji for like is the woman character with a mouth next to it. And I had forgotten to put the square in the mouth, so it just said one mind, woman water. which kind of works too, you know.

[68:37]

Anyway, so one mind like water. And water teaches, you know, in so many ways. And then water, expressing water. So thank you for that. One mind like water. Yes. Yeah. That's right. That's right. That's like, you know, when we say, when we were reading, we were just mouthing, you know, those words of Dogen and weren't meaning them. And it's like, whatever you say it means, it means. We can make it mean what we want it to mean. Yeah. And then you get somebody who knows something.

[69:38]

One mind like water. Yes, Judy. You were talking about the age span of the participants. Yes. I wonder, I didn't quite get what you said. I wonder if you would say it again, how to work with that difference. Yeah. Well, I was appreciating it, for one. I think, and... the unique, everybody bringing their uniqueness to the practice period, and for people to appreciate that what for them might be easy for somebody else might be really a big effort. You know, I was looking at, the pots are heavy. I remember they were heavy, you know, decades ago they were heavy, a pot full of soup. And I've been noticing the effort for many of us in the practice period to come into this end of carrying those pots. And I just wanted to appreciate that and, you know, not assume that, you know, to appreciate each other and where each of us is in our unique Dharma position, trying to do the same thing.

[70:58]

But for some people it might be very, very strenuous. For somebody else, You know, it was a piece of cake, you know. I mean, it was quite simple to do, they don't even think about it, they're not tired. Same with all the things we're doing. Jikido and these things, these are, they were difficult for me at 23 or whatever, and, you know, Jikido comes around, because we have a small brightest spirit, it's coming around quite a bit for people, of all ages. And I just, I really feel, you know, nine boughs for everybody's putting out such big effort, you know, big effort to really meet what the schedule and what all the Zendo jobs are and the, not Zendo jobs, but temple jobs with grace and determination and and just doing their best.

[71:59]

I wanted people to, I didn't say enough about it, obviously, but I just wanted people to realize all that's going on in the practice period. How is that great delusion about realization? Isn't that still delusion? Yeah. Well, actually, you said it.

[72:59]

If I think, oh, now I'm fully expressing myself, already you're separated. It's you doing this thing called expressing yourself. But when you just... come into the zendo with your pot and completely serve fully, you are fully expressing, and you're not thinking, now I am fully expressing myself doing serving. You forget all that. You're just one with the activity, and that's full expression. And you can't step back and kind of gauge it. So you can't have it as a possession. Well, I think, I don't know if I would agree. You know, that's the full expression of cereal mess.

[74:03]

And then there's the cleanup. Or, you know, once I was Jisha for the abbot, and I offered, and I dropped the incense, and it was like... And I picked it up, and we... And then afterwards I said, what do you do when you drop the incense? And he said, you pick it up. And that happens, and that's full expression. But I think that we get in trouble when we're stepping back and saying, am I doing full expression? Then you're already not doing full expression. leap from the vital path, you know, leap into your activity completely, fully. A tea ceremony.

[75:07]

Can you see yourself? Seeing yourself. And isn't that also fully? I'm seeing myself thinking. I'm fully expressing myself. I'm carrying the pot. Can I step back from that, too? I think you have to be able to step back from that, too, or... Because the... then your full expression is I'm seeing myself thinking. That's the full expression of thinking. I see myself thinking I'm fully carrying the pot. Fully carrying the pot, I think, drops thinking I'm fully carrying the pot. But full expression of thinking is... I just saw an infinite regression there of...

[76:21]

long as it's an odd number. It's like a hall of mirrors. Yeah, yeah. But it feels like as long as we're seeing, we're still... As long as you know that's about the thinking. Yeah. It seems like it doesn't matter how many times you go back to seeing. I mean, it just depends on whether you can draw. You can say, I'm expressing myself on the five, you can see that, and then you can hold on to that, you know. Yeah, that's right. It doesn't matter how many times, it's an even number, an odd number, and times, as long as you can drop. Yes, yeah. I just want to be clear about this. What isn't full expression? And is it just that the mind thought and the core would move away when it hits the wall?

[77:27]

Yeah. So that... So one can say it's the full expression of a confused, scattered mind. You can say that. That's full expression of not being in my body and, you know... right hand not knowing what the left hand's doing, and then the actions that fall from that are often confused. But you could say that's the full expression of confused Buddha. And you can study that, and you can wake up there, too. There's no place in which you can't wake up. I think it's harder because confusion and distraction we're not there to be able to study it. It's harder to study with a confused body and mind, right? But it's not possible because every moment is it.

[78:33]

Just this is it. But you know that everything I do as Buddha can be an excuse for so I'm going to do whatever, that can come into it. The strength of having your mind pervade your body and pervade your activity and what you convey and what can happen between self and other and self and objects when you're completely there in that way is We call that skillful, skillful means. I don't know if I can actually, I have to play the tape again. The power or when your mind pervades your activity, pervades your body and your activity, that

[79:45]

The quality of that life and what it conveys to others is skillful. It's skillful. Say it again. Well, all day long they are together. The blue mountain and the white clouds. So when... When small mind is completely one with activity, it's both dependent and independent. They're not separated. There must be more. You're looking at me as if there's more to ask. is that regardless of what is activity of small and or not, they're together, dependent on each other and independent.

[81:43]

Well, what you said about sometimes there's no activity or it's just very open or like space, then we come down from the mountain with gift bestowing hands. That's not, we don't stay on the mountain. Well, I'm ready to uncross my legs. Oh, is there another? Yes, Shoto. Shoto. my mind is the self is fully expressing through my dance or Buddha is fully expressing or the universe is fully expressing.

[82:53]

Well, that can be very helpful, you know, to have a thought like, the whole universe is being expressed while I wash dishes or something. That can be a centering, bring me into the present, align me with my vow, kind of a, you know, not a mantra exactly, but a kind of, and then, you know, are you thoroughly washing the dishes or whatever it is you're doing. or does that, if that can bring you, or is it more of some wonderful thought that actually is having you float above the washing the dishes or something? I don't know. But I think thoughts like that can be very centering. Yeah, then that's part of your dishwashing day.

[84:24]

That just, there it is. It just came up, right? Yeah. I think the mantra also arose, but I see what you mean, you know, bringing something in to practice with or, you know, I don't know. It's... I think that would be just part of the occasion of the dish washing, if it arose like that. I don't think we're saying somehow we have to excise any extraneous thought besides dishes or something. Just like in Zazen. There's just sitting, and within that, things come and go and arise and vanish, and we stay present with our Zazen posture and don't follow after them. That's part of our Zazen.

[85:27]

That's our Zazen. I see it as the same, actually. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[85:54]

@Transcribed_UNK
@Text_v005
@Score_94.06