This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. There's a samadhi called Sagura Mudra. zamai, samadhi. Sagura mudra means great ocean samadhi, which is a metaphor for our mind. Our mind is one great ocean. And we all share this one great ocean of mind. Sometimes it's called Buddha nature.

[01:02]

It's hard to describe Buddha nature and it's hard to describe our big mind. Mind is such a great subject in Buddhism. It's the big subject of Buddhism and of Zen especially and Mahayana Buddhism. Suzuki Roshi, when he talks about mind, he talks about big mind and small mind. It's not like small mind is something different than big mind. Small mind, which is our ordinary, so-called ordinary mind, is an expression of big mind. Big mind expresses itself as small mind. So we can't escape from big mind even though we can obscure it in our understanding so sagura mudra samadhi the great ocean samadhi and ocean is a great is a good way to talk about mind as you know we talk about mind

[02:29]

I talk about the ocean and the waves. The ocean is the one great mind. And the waves are its expression. Small minds. Each wave is a small mind. Each wave is a wavelet. You can say each wave is an existence. So each one of us are waves. on the great ocean of Buddha nature. So we are playing in the waves, but it gets very stormy up here in the waves. And all kinds of things happen in the waves. So because we're playing in the waves, we are waves and we play in the waves we don't really it's pretty hard to see the ocean for the waves or the trees for the forest as we say so we all share the same nature if we say monkey mind

[03:54]

Monkey mind is not a different mind from a big mind. In the Great Ocean there are many conditions. There are whirlpools and there are storms and there are tornadoes and there's calmness. There's the Sargasso Sea where nothing, no wind, and you get stuck there forever. But it's all one big mind. There are no separate minds. All minds are expressions of the big, one great mind. So the sea, the Sagura Sea, the great ocean holds everything. The great ocean holds everything.

[04:55]

without comment. But everything passes through, comes to life, goes back to the ocean, takes its form and goes back to the ocean. And the ocean is continually creating these forms called our life. Conditions, causes and conditions are part of that matrix, the dynamic that creates the variety of things. So that ocean holds everything. I sometimes think about all the ships at the bottom of the ocean, all the bones, all the creatures, that there's continually, there are more creatures in the ocean than on the land.

[06:02]

Of course we're diminishing them, but, so this sargara mudra is like our mind in zazen. When we sit in Zazen, we resume the great ocean Samadhi. Everything passes through. And the ocean just lets everything pass through. The ocean is, there's some effect maybe, but the effect only comes when there's something gets caught in it. If nothing gets caught in it, There's no effect. So the ocean just remains always the ocean. So the ocean, there are waves on the ocean.

[07:11]

But in Zazen, we sink down to the bottom. The mind sinks, doesn't sink, but consciousness goes all the way to the bottom. And beneath consciousness, actually. To beneath our awareness. And our awareness is at the top in the waves. And the waves are doing all kinds of dances in our on top of the great ocean. But the further down we go, the calmer the ocean. And the deeper the ocean, the more stable the foundation. So to reach the bottom, the endless bottom, the bottom is actually endless in this ocean, the further down we go,

[08:25]

We don't go, but our mind is free to go. The calmer it becomes. And the dance on the top of the waves is just flotsam and jetsam. and we exist as the whole ocean. This is the wonder of Zazen. Wonder means when you come upon something that's wonderful, you share that wonder which is beyond our idea and surprises us.

[09:37]

That's why it's called wonder. Master Hung Zhe says, just wander into the center of the circle of wonder. and stay there so everything is always new everything is always new and fresh so we can refresh we exist in refreshed mind where nothing bothers us. When something bothers you, go deeper, more still, more still.

[10:49]

To stay still is to go deeper. So I'm going to read a little from Suzuki Roshi and make a little comment. He talks about ordinary mind and Buddha mind. When we talk about Buddha mind, it's actually talking about Buddha nature. We're not talking about somebody's mind, like Shakyamuni's mind, but Dharmakaya mind, Varujana's mind, which is Buddha nature, which includes Shakyamuni's mind.

[11:58]

So momentary mind and eternal mind. Ordinary mind is momentary mind. Buddha's mind is eternal mind, the great ocean mind. Momentary mind is the mind that plays in the waves. He says, the point of my talk is to give you some support for your practice. There's no need for you to remember what I say. That's very humble. We want to remember what he says. And so we recorded it. But you would always say this at the end of a talk, often. No need to remember what I say. Why? There's a kind of humility, but there's also a reason.

[13:04]

Because when you listen to the talk, you're just doing zazen. The most important thing is not what I'm saying. The most important thing is what you're receiving in zazen. We always used to fall asleep when he talked. You weren't listening to what he said. We listened, but everybody He talked very softly. And when it was on Bush Street, the temple was on Bush Street, you know, he would talk and it would be very soft. And then we'd come to the penultimate word and a big truck would go by. So we never got it. He said, but it doesn't matter. You're sitting zazen. That's the important thing.

[14:06]

If you stick to it, if you stick to what I say, then you stick to the support, not to the tree itself. Then he talks about what a tree is. A tree, when it is strong, a tree when it is strong, they still want some support. But the most important thing is the tree itself, not the support. you know, he's talking to give us some support and some encouragement. But don't stick to it. Don't stick to the encouragement. Take it in and be encouraged. But the most important thing is the student not to talk. So, and then he says, he's likening that to a tree. I'm a tree, you're a tree. Well, these trees, right? So... If you stick to the support, if you stick to it, you stick to the support and not to the tree itself.

[15:15]

So that's why it's not necessary to remember what I say. When it is strong, a tree, even if it's strong, may still want some support. But the most important thing is not the support, but the student. I am one tree. and each one of you is a tree. You should stand up by yourself. When a tree stands up by itself, we call that tree a Buddha. In other words, when you practice zazen, in its true sense, you are really Buddha. Sometimes we call it a tree, sometimes we call it Buddha, and sometimes tree, Buddha, you are many names of one Buddha. When a teacher gives a talk, it should be an encouragement talk and not so much an information talk.

[16:18]

Information is okay to convey. Basically, the role of a teacher, in my view, is just to encourage people to practice. Encourage people in their practice and support people in their practice. And the result is that each student stands up by themselves. That's the whole point. When a student stands up by themselves, then you feel that they reach the stage where you can work with them in a really good way because you have some independence Of course, a person may think they have independence, but really need help. That's not so good. But even so, to strive for independence is an important aspect of practice. So that you stand up by yourself.

[17:20]

I think of students as boxcars and engines. boxcars are being carried along by the engines. And engines carry the boxcars along. So when we begin to practice, we're kind of like boxcars. You know, we follow along. And at some point, boxcars should turn into engines and carry the practice along and not just be carried by it. When you can carry the practice and be carried by it and balance that, that's mature practice. So to be able to stand up and to lead as well as to follow. That's why we train.

[18:26]

That's called training. I like the word training, but I use it. It's called training, when you learn to lead. When you learn to lead, it means the practice is coming from you. You're initiating practice. When you initiate practice, then that's called maturity. That means you stand up by yourself and even if no one else was around, you'd still practice because you're self-motivated. So we should all come to that point where we're all self-motivated. We don't need to have encouragement, even though encouragement is always great to have. And we don't need to have the encouragement and we can encourage others.

[19:27]

because our understanding is authored by ourself. And that means, when it's authored by ourself, it means we have authority. And when you have authority, you can help others. So that's what we all really want, that authority, which doesn't mean false authority. It means true authority. It doesn't mean bossing people around or mystifying everyone. So you are a tree, an independent tree. And when you have that independence and it's mature, that's when we give Dharma transmission because you have your own you have discovered your own path and you don't you're not sliding back even if a person is not perfectly what we call quote unquote enlightened there's some enlightenment

[20:57]

some realization, rather. And we know that that person will continue to mature and that they have their own authority and they're not perfect. If it came to the perfect person, no one would ever have dharma transmission. But we're all imperfect. But that imperfection is also our perfection because we know that we continue to mature. So anyway, when you sit and you are independent from various beings and you are related to various beings and when you have perfect composure in your practice, you include everything. You are not just you.

[22:03]

You are the whole world or the whole cosmos and you are Buddha. So when you sit, you are an ordinary human and you are Buddha at the same time. Before you sit, you may stick to the idea that you are just ordinary. So when you sit, you are not the same being as you are before you sit. I'm not sure what he means by that. I can see two or three different things that he means by that, but I don't want to go into it. So he says, you may say that it is not possible to be both ordinary and holy. When you think this way, your understanding is one-sided. In Japanese, we call someone who understands things from just one side a tambangkan, a board-carrying fellow. This is someone who carries a board on their shoulder. So they're carrying... You're walking with a board on your shoulder, and you can see over here, but you can't see over there.

[23:08]

So that's a one-sided view. So we need to see things from more than one side. Because you carry a big board on your shoulder, you cannot see the other side, and you think you're just an ordinary human. But if you take the board off, you will understand. Oh, I'm Buddha too. How can I be both Buddha and an ordinary human? That is enlightenment. There are two kinds of faith. One is called patriarchal faith, and the other one is called doctrinal faith. Patriarchal faith means I am Buddha. I practice as Buddha. Doctrinal faith is like someday if I practice I will be Buddha.

[24:16]

So this doctrinal understanding is a gap. It's like most religions. There is a Buddha and someday I will reach there. Patriarchal faith patriarchal faith is we are already Buddha and our practice is to express that. Our practice is to express our Buddha nature as an ordinary human. So ordinary and holy are just two ways of talking about one thing because we experience ourselves Intrinsic and experiential. Intrinsically, we are Buddha. Experientially, we're just ordinary. So because Buddha or Buddha nature is so amorphous and inexplicable, we don't have the sense of it.

[25:24]

But we have the sense of it when we sit. And we have the sense of it when we practice. And we have the sense of it when we wake up. That's called enlightenment. And when you realize, oh, I'm also Buddha, then we realize everyone else is also Buddha. And this is what Shakyamuni realized when he sat under the bow tree. He said, oh, I have this nature, and everyone else also has this nature. I'm not different from anybody else. So when we put Buddha up on a pedestal, we say, oh, he's different than everybody else. But that's not so. We don't put him on a pedestal. When we bow to the altar, there's a stone up there. Buddha, Shakyamuni Buddha. Yes, it's Shakyamuni Buddha. Wherever you point, it's Shakyamuni Buddha. So when we bow,

[26:28]

What do we bow to? Do we bow to an idol? Well, you don't want to bow to an idol, especially if you're Jewish. You're not allowed to. But we all do. Because what we bow to, we say, we bow to ourself. Oh, isn't that egotistical? No, it's not egotistical, because Buddha is ourself. So we bow to our greater self, our true self, not just our ego self, which includes everything. So a Buddha on the altar is just a focal point for us and reminds us of who we are. We have these wonderful Buddha statues who remind us of who we are.

[27:30]

Everything is here. It's all subjective, totally subjective. Objective is also subjective. Spiritual is also material. We don't make a distinction between spiritual and material. when people talk about spirituality and spiritual stuff, it's always out there. But for us, it's all right here. So we don't talk about spiritual very much, if you think about it. We say, yes, this is spiritual practice, but that's a kind of convenient way of speaking to can distinguish it from mundane, right?

[28:33]

So that's why we don't usually use the word spiritual because it's not different from mundane. Everything is an aspect of Buddha nature. So that's how we carry the whole universe. When we open ourselves up, we are the whole universe. We're totally connected with everything. every bit of our body-mind is connected with the universe. So when one person stands up, everybody stands up. When one person does something, everybody does something. You can say, well, wait a minute. I have to think that one over. You do have to think it over. But you can see how it's so. So he says, When you experience enlightenment, you will understand things more freely.

[29:38]

You won't mind whatever people call you. Ordinary mind? Okay, I am ordinary mind. Buddha? Yeah, okay, I'm Buddha. How do I come to be both Buddha and ordinary mind? I don't know. But actually, I am Buddha and ordinary mind. There's the great koan, you know. Nansen and Zhou Xu. Zhou Xu, Zhao Zhou, was a student of Nansen when he was around 18, it seems. Of course, Zhou Xu lived to be 120. Some people say he didn't start practicing until he was 60. Who knows? Nobody knows these things, for sure. But anyway, in this story, he's 18.

[30:42]

And so he's a young guy, and he's questioning his teacher. Nansen. And he says, what is the way? What is the Tao? He says, what is the Tao? What is the way? And Nonsense says, ordinary mind is the way. Ordinary mind is the way. So here we have mind again and ordinary. So these two words are important, ordinary and mind. So what is ordinary and what is mind? We usually think of ordinary as just the stuff that we do every day. Eat three meals, get up in the morning, walk here and there, do this and that.

[31:44]

And it's just ordinary activity. That's one way to think about ordinary. That's the ordinary of the waves. But actually, the most ordinary thing is what we don't pay attention to, or we don't think about. And the most ordinary thing is what's closer than hands and feet. The most ordinary thing is our body nature. That's the real ordinary thing, because no matter what's going on, that's always present. As a matter of fact, that's not only just present, it's what makes ordinary ordinary. So really nothing is ordinary. But he says ordinary mind, that is the way.

[32:45]

So what is the way? Way is usually the path, right? Ordinary mind is the path. But where does the path go? Well, it's the path to enlightenment, right? So where does the path to enlightenment go? That's a great question. That's the question people have. What is the true path to it? But it doesn't go anywhere. The path to enlightenment doesn't go anywhere. The path always leads to here. Saduki Roshi said something like, when we think of the path, we're always going, it's a road going away from us. A path usually is a way going away from us.

[33:49]

But this is a path that doesn't go anywhere. It goes here. And enlightenment is something that we always have, but we don't know it. Lotus Sutra, there's always the guy that had, when he was drunk or something, somebody sewed a jewel in the hem of his robe, but he didn't know he had it. And he goes all over the place looking for something, but he doesn't know that the jewel is right there in his robe. So then Joshu says, well, how shall I go after it? Should I go seeking it? And Nansen says, if you run after it, you stumble past.

[35:00]

And if you don't go after it, nothing happens. So, do you go after it or do you not go after it? That's the koan. Do you go after it or do you go seeking it? If you don't go seeking it, nothing happens. And if you do go seeking it, you stumble past. So, where do you look? Where do you look? So, Throughout the history of Buddhism you will find that the way to the Dharma, the way to understanding, the way to enlightenment is through practice. To go seeking something, it's like

[36:04]

Wanting something without paying for it. Or there's the old saying, you have to pay your dues. And you pay your dues by everyday activity. There's another saying, if you want the lion's cub, you have to enter the lion's cave. Dangerous. That's where it is. So where's the lion's cave? The lion's cave is right here. You have to deal with all your stuff. That's the lion's cave. You have to really deal with all your stuff. And it's dangerous because you have to let go. What's dangerous is danger, letting go.

[37:13]

We let go to a certain extent. When we enter practice, we let go to a certain extent. But there's always a place where you get stuck. I'm not going to go there. I think we all have that. That one place where we get stuck and I'm not going to go there. And then that's where a certain stage of practice really begins. those barriers a few barriers some easy barriers and some really difficult barriers but the thing is that the practice and the dealing with all that itself is enlightened practice we're trying to get something and while we're trying to get it the trying itself is the enlightenment not the thing that you're trying to get This is the big stumbling block for people.

[38:21]

The effort to get what we're trying to get is itself. The road is enlightenment. The Tao is enlightenment. The practice is enlightenment. When you're really practicing wholeheartedly and sincerely, enlightenment is there. But if you say, the enlightenment is here, so I don't have to go working hard anymore, that's not right either. That's like when you stumble on the ground, when you stumble over a stone on the ground and you fall to the ground, you use the ground to pick yourself up. That's enlightenment. But if you keep thinking, oh, I can stumble, keep stumbling on the ground and I can just keep picking myself up, that's delusion. So... we have to enter every moment without knowing, without preconceptions about.

[39:28]

If you think this is enlightened practice, that's wrong. But if you just do it, that's right. So Buddha, in its true sense, is not different from ordinary mind. An ordinary mind is not something apart from what is holy. This is a complete understanding of ourself. When we practice zazen with this understanding, that's true zazen, and we will not be bothered by anything. This is a critical statement. We will not be bothered by anything. We get hooked by stuff. We get hooked by anger, ill will, delusive understanding, greed, and so forth. And the secret of practice is to continually keep letting go, not to get hooked by anything.

[40:38]

And we get hooked all the time. So when we allow ourselves to not get hooked, then we can practice freely. without hindrances. So Suzuki Roshi's way of saying that is don't get caught by anything. He said that continuously. Don't get caught by anything. How can you just keep practicing freely and easily without getting caught by anything? So when something comes up, we let it come up, but we don't grab it. Angry mind is usually the, you know, angry mind and greedy mind. Delicit mind. Ignorance. But since we don't know what ignorance is, we don't know that we're caught by it, so that's a difficult one.

[41:43]

If we knew what ignorance was, we wouldn't be ignorant. So whatever you hear, whatever you see will be okay. To have this feeling is necessary. It's necessary to become accustomed to our practice. If you keep practicing, you will naturally have this understanding and this feeling. It will not be just intellectual. You have the actual feeling. So then he talks a little bit about... Even though someone can explain Buddhism, if he doesn't have the actual feeling, we can't call him a Buddhist. So somebody may not mind that. Only when your personality is characterized by this kind of feeling can we call you a Buddhist. The way to become characterized by this kind of understanding is to always concentrate on this point.

[42:50]

Many koans and sayings bring out this point. Ordinary mind understands things dualistically, but even though we are doing what we usually do, that is dualistically, that is actually Buddha's activity, Buddha's mind. Buddha's activity and our dualistic activity are not different. So we need to practice dualistically. When you read the literature, it always says, We should practice non-duality, right? They say, yes, we should practice non-duality because we're always practicing just duality in the realm of duality, in the realm of discrimination. When we sit zazen, we let go of discriminating mind. And we can also let go of a discriminating mind when we're in our daily activity. Even though we have to discriminate all the time, we're constantly discriminating.

[43:56]

We have to choose one thing over another all the time. Should I go this way or should I go that way? That's a discrimination. Should I take this or should I take that? That's a discrimination. Should I believe this or that? So we're always discriminating, and yet we're supposed to practice non-discrimination. So within discrimination, we have to practice. practice non-discrimination. We can't practice discrimination on the one hand and non-discrimination on the other hand. It's called the discrimination of non-discrimination. Otherwise, it's only discriminating. I'm not discriminating over here, but I'm discriminating over here. That's all just discrimination. So in order to practice non-discriminating discrimination, we have to be able to see the oneness in our discrimination, which means to discriminate, to choose without being self-centered.

[45:04]

It means to discriminate without self. Without ego. And then simply we're dealing with how things work. Rather than choosing on the basis of So someone may say that such and such is Buddha's mind, and this and that is ordinary mind, but there's no need to explain it that way. When we do something, we can't say, I am doing something. because there is no one who is independent from others.

[46:43]

When I say something, you will hear it. I cannot do anything by myself, just for myself. So this is selfless activity. This is discrimination of non-discrimination. If someone says something, everyone will be doing something. If someone does something, everyone will be doing something. Moment after moment, we continue our activity, which is Buddha's activity. But you cannot say that this is just Buddha's activity because you are really doing, you are really doing, actually doing something too. There's something called Buddha nature. So Buddha means eternal. And nature means momentary. So Buddha nature has these two aspects, eternal and momentary. Buddha means the deep ocean and nature means the waves.

[47:50]

So moment after moment, we continue our activity, which is Buddha's activity. But you cannot say that this is just Buddha's activity because you are actually doing something too. Then you may say, I, but we don't know what I That is, you try to say who is doing what because you want to intellectualize your activity. But before you say anything, the actual activity is present. So who you are is right there. And right there, right there, that's enlightenment. It may sound confusing, and it probably does. You can't do something just by yourself because everything you do is affected and supported and created by everything else.

[48:52]

So you do this and that affects the whole universe. Kutte, when asked a question, would always do this because this is connected to everything. You think you're independent. We're independent and not independent. We're independent and dependent. Suzuki Roshi coined the term independency. Independency. What do you mean by independency? We don't have a word called independency, but actually there is. And he said, I just invented it. It means dependent and independent. It's yes, but. The secret of Soto Zen is yes, but. So everything we do in some way affects the whole universe.

[50:00]

Even though we don't notice it. Everything is affecting everything. I do something, everybody does something. Even though we don't notice it. So our activity is both cosmic and personal. So there's no need to explain what we're doing. We may want to explain it, But we should not feel uneasy if we can't, because it's impossible to understand. But you can't tell your mother that. You maybe can. Tell her that. Actually, you are here, right here. So before you understand yourself, you are here. In other words, you're here before you understand it. The fact comes before the thought.

[51:10]

After you explain, you are not really you anymore. You're just an idea. So that's why we keep our mouths shut so we don't turn everything into an idea and we experience reality directly. After you explain, you are not really you anymore. You just have an image. But usually you will stick to the image, which is not you, and you will ignore the reality. As Dogen said, We human beings attach to something that is not real and forget all about what is real. That is actually what we do. If you realize this point, you will have perfect composure and you can trust yourself. Whatever happens to you, it doesn't matter. You trust yourself. And this is not the usual trust or belief in what is not real. While you are able to sit without any image or any sound, with an open mind, that is true practice.

[52:13]

When you can do that, you are free from everything. Still, it is our right for you to enjoy your life moment after moment because you are enjoying your life both momentary and eternal. Our life is momentary and at the same time each moment includes its own past and future. In this way, our momentary and eternal life will continue. This is how we actually lead our everyday life, how we enjoy our everyday life, and how we have freedom from various difficulties. I was sick in bed for a long time, and I was thinking about these things. He had a gallbladder operation. I was just practicing zazen in bed. Why should you enjoy being in bed? A little chuckle. Sometimes it was difficult, but then I laughed at myself. Why is it so difficult? Why don't you enjoy your difficulties? Yes, we should enjoy our difficulties.

[53:19]

But the enlightened mind enjoys its difficulties because it doesn't discriminate. Do you have a question? So the other day you were talking about... Manas and the Alaya Vijnana. Is the Alaya Vijnana like the ocean? Well, no. Matter of fact, there's a ninth consciousness called Amala, which is the ocean. But Manas thinks that Alaya is the ocean, and that's its mistake. It thinks that what goes on in the field of consciousness is the ocean, the real thing.

[54:37]

And it doesn't go any further. That's why it's called false consciousness. A mala is... the ocean. And consciousness is an expression of the ocean. So there's always something more, always something further. Consciousness, so going beyond consciousness is true enlightenment. Which means you go to the bottom of the ocean is These metaphors don't add up exactly, but Amala is Dharmakaya. And Vairachana. And all the consciousnesses are an expression of that. So, Allayavirjana is within the realm of consciousness.

[55:42]

but amala is outside of the realm of consciousness. And it's beyond our experience, but it's the basis of enlightenment. That's why it's said it's beyond consciousness. Enlightenment is beyond consciousness, which doesn't mean that it's not expressed through consciousness, but it's not a factor of consciousness. ego or manas is a messenger. Yes. And it should assume its proper function. Yes. How can the ego assume its proper function? Well, just by not indulging it. In other words, put that cigar back in the drawer. Put it out. Get off the chair. Go back to work. Stop promoting yourself as the big cheese.

[56:46]

That's how it goes back to work. Okay, sorry. I repent of all my transgressions. I will go back to work as a humble messenger, fulfilling my duties. And then everything starts working, as it should. But the ego interrupts. Ego interrupts us. It interrupts our true... It seeks to build itself up and cause a lot of problems. And when it's deflated... then it can do its work and be happy. And the rest of the body, the rest of the body-mind can be happy too because it's functioning in harmony with the cosmos.

[58:01]

We're cosmic people. And it is, you know, we're just, I mean, it's just a fact. We're cosmic people. It's not science fiction. It's just reality. When you think about it, we're members of the cosmos. We're made of stardust. We're all made of stardust. Everything's made of stardust. Consciousness is not simply human. There's human consciousness, and then there's other kinds of consciousness. Animal consciousness. I remember the scientists saying, animals don't have consciousness. That's ridiculous. I own a horse and a dog and none of them have consciousness. I pity their poor animals. There was this test that the famous scientist said, dogs do not have consciousness.

[59:13]

They don't feel pain. I can see that they nailed their paws to a board. I couldn't believe it when I read that. It's an actual experiment. I mean, I'm sure the dog was helping. But anyway, people have human consciousness. Dogs have consciousness. Cats have consciousness. Ants. That's what drives all of the stuff. I often think about ants. Do ants have ants and uncles? Anyway, that's enough. Enough nonsense. You don't have to remember what I said. Yes. And you're a sailor, an old sailor.

[60:16]

All the parts in the ocean have to do with, yeah. Well, see, the ego is also part of the ocean. Well, no. It should do what the ocean wants. But it separates itself and thinks it's a separate being. This is the problem with the ego. The ego has a function, but what it does is thinks it's separate. And that's the problem, because it thinks. This is the problem with thinking. Well, the ocean, I don't know what the ocean wants. but in order to be in harmony with the rest it has to take its place otherwise there's something called sickness sickness happens when things are out of balance and when one part becomes bigger than the rest and it takes up too much room and so we become mentally ill we don't realize how mentally ill we are because our ego is out of balance with things

[61:46]

When our ego is in balance with things, then our ego should be healthy. So it's a matter of a degree. It's not a matter of, you understand? It's not a matter of, the ego is not a thing. It's simply a disease. I understand what you're saying about that. Yeah. Well, it's perfect in a sense that, okay, there's human nature and Buddha nature. Within human nature, it's not perfect. Within Buddha nature, it is perfect. Because like and dislike are human feelings. Right and wrong are human feelings.

[62:47]

It has nothing to do with the universal feeling. The mountain, the landslide doesn't care that you're walking underneath it. But we care. We don't like it. So like and dislike and all that is human nature. And human nature is an expression of Buddha nature. But we create like and dislike and rules and so forth. Independent, in an independent way. Even though we're dependent on Buddha nature, we create certain rules because we as humans have empathy for each other. Not everybody does, but as human beings, that's kind of the battle of the human world, is those who have empathy and those who don't. Those who identify with each other and those who don't. Some people would like to just kill everybody and take all the stuff.

[63:51]

And other people would like to let everybody live and be happy and live in safety and so forth. So these are the two forces that are always going on in our dualistic world. So that's, I can't tell you why that happens. I mean, why, you know, if you say... Buddha nature wants something that's anthropomorphizing Buddha nature. I don't know if Buddha nature wants anything. Human beings, being who they are, want something. I don't know if Buddha nature wants anything. That's beyond our understanding. Because we don't have one of those.

[64:55]

Yes. Those are human concerns. Those are human concerns. They're not the concerns of Buddha nature. Even though we are Buddha nature. They're just human concerns. You can think about them. You don't have to think about them. There are all kinds of philosophical questions which are endless. And you can think about them or not. Whether they're necessary or not to think about is another question. So Buddha said, these are not necessary to think about, these questions. That's Buddhism. These questions are not necessary to think about.

[65:57]

You can think about them if you want to. But the purpose of the Dharma is to deal with how we not create so much suffering. If these questions help in that, good. If they don't, no need to deal with them. There's a big book, not too big, but a book in which Buddha addresses all these questions and proves them not necessary to think about. So that's my response. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge and this is made possible by the donations we receive.

[67:06]

Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, Visit sfzc.org and click Giving.

[67:20]

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