This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. What do I want to say? Of course, I want to start by thanking and acknowledging my teacher, Sojin Mel Weitzman Roshi, the abbot of Berkeley Zen Center. And to say that my talk is just to encourage you in your practice. I'd also like to thank Abit Ed for inviting me to speak this practice period. And I'd like to thank our Shuso. He's doing such a great job. Thank you, Shuso. I'm really happy to be studying the Heart Sutra. this practice period.

[01:02]

So I thought I'd like to talk a little bit about the Harva Sutra this morning. I feel like the Shingyo is pervading this valley, pervading this practice period. talking about it, studying it. Of course, we chant it every day, year in, year out, all year round, either English or Japanese. We toggle back and forth. We're always chanting the Heart Sutra. And lately I feel like we're living and breathing the Heart Sutra. be talking to somebody and I'll say, well, I've noticed my attitude about that person has been changing lately.

[02:13]

And I'll be like, thanks for preaching the Heart Sutra to me. Yeah. So I've been seeing it a lot. noticing the Dharma, the teaching of emptiness. Things change. We are not stuck. We're not fixed. So, I want to talk about my favorite part My favorite part of the Heart Sutra. That part.

[03:20]

With nothing to attain, a Bodhisattva relies on Prajnaparamita. Thus the mind is without hindrance. Without hindrance there is no fear. That part. I feel like if the Heart Sutra were a piece of music, which it kind of is, sometimes I call it our school song, that would be the crescendo. In fact, usually, That's the part where the doshi gets up, if they're sitting, backs up and does a standing bow with a big bell. Right, Dawn? Want to do it? Feels good.

[04:28]

Sometimes, especially when we're chanting the Japanese version, I notice my voice goes up. I get a little excited at that part. With nothing to attain, Bodhisattva relies on Prajnaparamita. Thus, the mind is without hindrance. Without hindrance, no fear. also besides being you know the feeling of it is like crescendo it's also kind of turning because basically up till then the It's just been busy preaching emptiness.

[05:35]

And, you know, it systematically goes through the whole, well, you know, in shorthand, the whole Sarvastivadhan avidharma and negates it all, right? No five skandhas, no twelve-linked chain of causation, no this, no that, no other thing. No, no, no, no, no, moo, [...] moo. Up to the Four Noble Truths. My gosh, Four Noble Truths. I know I've said before, I was chanting the Heart Sutra for a couple of years before it dawned on me that it was no suffering, no cause, no origination, no path. Oh, yeah. That's the Four Noble Truths. Negating the four noble truths. That's just no knowledge and no attainment. So there.

[06:38]

And then it turns. So I think I said in a class at one point, it's not nihilism. So it's not just negating all these things. And there you are. You know... You're just hanging out in emptiness. It's a message of salvation, actually. With nothing to attain, a bodhisattva relies on Prajnaparamita. The mind is no hindrance. Without hindrance, there is no fear. So there's nothing to attain. Mu-sho-toku. It's very... critical to practice of Soto Zen. Dogen talked about this a lot. His teacher, Ru Jing, emphasized it a lot.

[07:47]

No gaining idea is how it often gets translated. No attainment. There's nothing to get. Why? Because you already have it. Why? Because as long as there's something to get, then there's always going to be separation. The me, as I am now, and the me I want to be, you know, when I'm enlightened. Once I go to Tassajara and get all my stuff straightened out and people start liking me and... Right? Is that working out for everybody? Yeah. So this is Suzuki Roshi's teaching. You're perfect just the way you are. There's nothing to attain because you already have it.

[08:50]

You already have everything you need. And our practice that Dogen really emphasized is the practice is the expression of that. Practice and enlightenment. go together. So, relax. Nothing to attain. Sometimes people even try to make attainment out of non-attainment. You might be thinking, oh, yes, this no-gaining idea, how am I doing with that? I think I'm getting pretty good at having no-gaining idea.

[09:56]

People do that. Or they'll be talking to me and say, yeah, I feel like whatever it is, is going better. Oh, but, sorry, I'm not supposed to have a gaining idea. Oops. No, that's alright. I assure you, it's okay. It's okay to enjoy the fruits of your practice. It's okay to make progress on the path, actually. You just don't get caught by it. Actually, in some Sanskrit version of They're not all the same. Some version of the Heart Sutra, the bit that comes just before with nothing to attain is no knowledge and no attainment. No suffering, no cause, no cessation, no path, no knowledge and no attainment. Some version says no attainment and no non-attainment.

[11:02]

Ha! So there. Just forget about it. Let it go. That's not attainment. Don't worry about it. With nothing to attain, a bodhisattva relies on Prajnaparamita. Bodhisattva. What is the bodhisattva? I think that we are all a great assembly of bodhisattvas in training. Tassahara is Bodhisattva Training Academy. Bodhi means awakening, sattva means being. The beings who awaken and help others to awaken. Bodhisattva is spelled with a big capital V for vow.

[12:11]

Bodhisattva lives by vow. Bodhisattva's life is informed by great vow. Not driven by karma, but informed by vow. We make the four immeasurable vows, as we will do at the end of this talk. This is... Bodhisattva's orientation a person, a being living in this world living in this Saha world vowing to practice with and for others not enjoying their classic final entry into ultimate nirvana as long as there's suffering in the world as long as there are suffering beings who need help in this saha world. Bodhisattvas practice friendliness and helpfulness. That's a bodhisattva's orientation.

[13:16]

Bodhisattvas rely on prajnaparamita. Prajnaparamita is the practice of the perfection of wisdom, right? Or the wisdom that goes beyond. Prajna is an interesting word in Sanskrit. Actually, the bit that comes just before, no knowledge and no attainment, that word knowledge in Sanskrit is nyanyam. J-N-Y-A-Nam. That J-N-Y-A is the same in Prajna. And it's the same Indo-European language root as Prajna. knowledge, gnosis, knowing things. So the prefix, actually pre-fix, the pre relates to pra.

[14:28]

Pra means before, before knowing. Before knowing. It's the wisdom before knowing. The wisdom before you have an idea about something. And it's beyond thinking. It's beyond thinking because it's before thinking. Intuitive wisdom. Wisdom that goes beyond thinking. When you let go. When you aren't caught by thinking. What informs? What is there to rely on? A bodhisattva relies on Prajnaparamita. You don't have to know. This is Bodhidharma's don't know. This is Vimalakirti's thunderous silence. Just, it's okay.

[15:29]

Just, I can just be curious. Just, I can meet this, whatever this is, in this moment, this person, this thing, this situation, this conflict, this beauty, with what? What? Curiosity, openness, vulnerability. Just this. Only don't know. Great Korean Zen master, Sung San. He probably said that about a million times in his lifetime. Only don't know. Only don't know. This is actually pretty reliable. It sounds nutty to our thinking mind. Of course it would sound nutty to your thinking mind. But it's actually pretty reliable. Bodhisattvas rely on it.

[16:33]

bodhisattva relies on prajnaparamita and thus the mind is without hindrance so I am especially curious for this talk about that bit This is the liberative quality. The mind is without hindrance. And I know I mangle these Sanskrit words, so please forgive me. Great four-fold assembly and everybody out there in podcast land. Achitavarana. Achittavarana is what gets translated as hindrance.

[17:39]

But it's a very interesting word. Chitta, of course, is mind. Bonichitta, for example, is awakening mind, the mind of awakening or wayseeking mind. And avarana relates to hiding or concealing, obscuring. So Dr. Kanzi translates this as thought coverings. Thought coverings. That's what it says in this new book by Kaz Tanahashi, which is amazing. It just goes through the Heart Sutra line by line with all these different translations. Thought coverings. I think that's interesting. I think we can all relate to thought coverings. Um, there's parts of our mind that we don't want to see, or there's parts of our minds that we don't want other people to see.

[18:48]

Um, the English, um, humor novelist, um, Very famous humorist, P.G. Woodhouse, wrote all these books about Jeeves the butler and so forth. P.G. Woodhouse said, you can make anybody in the world turn pale and quake in their boots by just coming up alongside them and saying, I know your guilty secret. We all have stuff that we hide, we conceal. We don't want other people to see. In Red Pine's book about the Heart Sutra, this phrase, Achitavarana, he calls it walls of the mind.

[20:03]

walls of the mind. So, things hide behind walls. You have various walls. And he says that, actually, the classic Buddhist teaching, it figures, because Buddhism is all about lists, breaks that, achitavarana, walls of the mind, down into three categories. Three categories of walls of the mind. There's walls of passion, walls of karma and walls of knowledge. That's pretty interesting. I like that a lot. I think about myself, my constructed self, walls of passion. Oh yeah, sure. I get upset. I bug over something. However briefly, and I'm just like, You can't think.

[21:05]

You can't even think. You can't even be present for something because you're so agitated. Or you're so obsessed. Or you're so frightened. Or whatever strong emotion it is. Walls of passion. Emotions. Strong emotions throw us. Too agitated to be present. walls of knowledge. I know stuff. I know how to tie my shoes. I know the way to San Jose. I know lots of stuff. You all know stuff. We know things. That's a good thing, to know things. But what we know can... very quickly become walls of the mind.

[22:06]

Like, to give an extreme example, I know how those people are. Something you think you know. You need to check that out. You need to check out what we think we know. Maybe there's a better way I could be tying my shoes. I should be open to that. Maybe there's another way to cut these onions up. I don't like cutting the onions up that way. Yeah, but Fukutana is asking me to do that. Okay, I'll just do that, you know, and I'll let go of what I know. walls of karma you know this is our conditioning this is all our habit energy all of our upbringing and even before that society culture race institutions you name it all plays itself out to this being this collection of

[23:36]

five aggregates that I call me. You know, Paul Howard says, the universe according to me. The universe according to me is informed by all these things, my experience, my upbringing, walls of karma in, in, Extreme, you could say trauma, for an extreme example. Deeply held hurts. unconscious accommodations that the mind has made to help us survive a confusing, baffling, unpredictable world from childhood up.

[24:54]

So we all do that. We all do that. We all do that. We all make these walls of the mind. But apparently the heart suture is saying that when we rely on on, when bodhisattvas rely on prajnaparamita, the mind is no hindrance or without hindrance. Actually, there seems to be this message of salvation in there, this message that relying on prajnaparamita, the walls can come down.

[26:04]

Anyway, let's say temporarily, you know, at times or a little bit. Maybe one wall comes down a little bit and I just peek over the top. Oh. Things as it is. And it's okay. No fear. Without hindrance, no fear. The wall comes down. Oh. I'm alright without it. I'm actually alright. If you can stand it, you know. If you can bear it. Because we rely on these walls of the mind as critters of habit. As sentient beings.

[27:08]

As bodhisattvas, we rely on Prajnaparamita. So, there might be some tension there. Is it okay to let this wall down? And you need to find out. You need to find out for yourself. That's really important. We all need to find out for ourselves. In practice. In Sangha. There is no fear. You might find out. I can let this wall down for now. Just say, for now. I can let this wall down and find out I'm okay. And because you're bodhisattva in training, you actually get to extend that okayness to others.

[28:15]

The first of the perfections, the paramitas. You know, as a side note, the word paramita has been an intentional pun in Sanskrit for as long as it's been a Mahayana teaching. It has this dual meaning of perfection and crossing over. Yeah, it's a pun and it's intentional. It means perfection and it means crossing over. Crossing over from one shore to the next. Crossing over in each moment. Or as Sojan Roshi once said, you have a foot on both shores. Dhanaparamita is the first of the six perfections, the practice of generosity. And it's said that bodhisattvas give three things.

[29:18]

They give the Dharma, teachings. They give material aid, material goods, food, medicine, clothing, etc. And they give non-fear. So, relying on Prajnaparamita, Being okay with not knowing. Being okay with what is this? Who is this person? Letting the walls down is actually an act of generosity. You give that non-fear to others. Bodhisattvas do that. And it's said that bodhisattvas speak first or move first. And bodhisattvas extend that, the hand of friendship, the helping hand. Avalokiteshvara is 10,000 hands and arms.

[30:22]

Bodhisattvas do that. Give the gift of non-fear. And I think that this is a very important gift. to give. Actually, the inspiration for this talk was when I was driving the Suburban 2006 to Green Gulch Farm for a meeting about the Zen School. Did you know that we are a school? Well, we are, and maybe we're going to sort of have a little more structure and understanding about what that means to be a school, an institution of learning. I had fun driving the humpback whale, the 2006 Suburban, to Green Gulch, and I was by myself.

[31:39]

I had the radio on. Fascinating. I'm only going to... I talked about fear from many different perspectives. I'm only going to share two stories from it. The first was about a scientist called an environmental psychologist. Someone who studies environment and... studying people the way some other scientists might study like a pack of baboons or something.

[32:53]

This person was studying children in a small town in Vermont 35 years ago. And he wanted to know how the children lived and played. where they went. And so he studied them for like two and a half years or something. A long time. And he made actual maps. He made maps. This was in the 70s. He made maps of where all the kids went, where they wandered, all over this town, where they went typically or sometimes non-typically, further distances, who they went with. He studied all their behavior, and he was like, tell me where you go, show me where you go. And the kids would, and they went all different places, into the woods, out by the river, by themselves, you know, junkets, four, six, you name it.

[33:56]

And he made physical maps of this. The interesting thing is, the same person went back to the same town 35 years later, the town basically unchanged. Same town. Not much had changed about it. And the nation's crime rate is at the lowest it's been since the 1950s. But when he said to these kids, show me where you go, they'd be like, okay, well, front yard, backyard. Maybe a little further if mom and dad are watching. yeah, they don't go anywhere. And then he interviewed the parents, including, ironically, one of the parents he interviewed was one of the kids he interviewed 35 years before, who was like going all over the place, wandering down to the river, playing by the riverside by himself, you know, and he said, oh no, I can't let my kid out of my sight for more than five minutes, because you never know who might be at the end of the block and

[35:10]

this or that, the other thing. It was all fear. Fear, fear, fear. Fear. Wow. Intense. Yeah, it seems like as a society, these walls of fear are big in our world. right now. And it seems to me like something we can do as bodhisaphas in training is give the gift of non-fear. The other story from this radio show that was just totally fascinating to me was like a third-person interview with this anonymous woman in her 40s who has to, her identity is protected, very, very, very carefully protected because she has an extremely rare neurological disorder where her amygdala, whatever that is, is part of the brain, is a small almond-shaped part of the brain, which is where fear response is located.

[36:38]

And because of this disorder she has, her amygdala was completely calcified. And from childhood, like she has distant memory of being afraid of something as a childhood, but as an adult, completely fearless. And these scientists in, I think it's a university in Iowa, have tried all these different things to scare her. Nothing. Nothing scares her. Nothing. And her identity has to be protected so carefully because her life has been endangered more than once. So they didn't interview her. The person doing the radio show wrote some questions down, and one of the scientists asked the questions of her, and they kind of... I think it was her real voice. I don't think they changed her voice. She has this kind of funny, squeaky, husky voice, which is one of the symptoms of the disorder, actually. And she was saying things like, one time this man was sitting on a bench, and he said, come over here.

[37:49]

And then he took a knife, and he held it to my throat, and he said, I'm going to cut you. And I said, oh, I'll have to get another dress. Yeah. So yeah, actually, you know, fear response serves a good purpose. It's a very important part of evolution, obviously. About 400 people in the world have been identified with this disorder. Incapable of feeling fear. But, interesting thing, as strange as her life has been, and as challenging as it's been, She's a very happy person. She's a happy person. They highlighted that in the radio show. She said, oh, I get a little blue sometimes, but basically, I'm pretty happy.

[38:57]

No fear. I think some fear is probably good. For survival, it's a good thing. But... Fear can take over your lives. Fear can take over whole societies, whole cultures, whole institutions. I think no fear is the most wonderful gift we can possibly give. I'm okay with You're okay. We'll be okay together. I think that's what we're doing here in Tazahara. And it's frequently very painful.

[40:02]

That's okay. It's worthy work to work on letting the walls down. Blanche Hartman, when she was first going to Berkeley Zen Center way back in the day, in the 60s, asked Mel Weitzman, I keep hearing about Tazahara, Tazahara. What's the big deal about Tazahara? And Mel said, well, I think at Tazahara, everybody can see your stuff, so you might as well see it too. We all have our stuff. We all have our walls of passion, walls of karma, conditioning, history, culture.

[41:11]

walls of knowledge. We all bring that. And we do our very best to practice together. Everybody has got their own stuff. Everybody's got a thing. I got a thing. You got a thing. Everybody's got a thing. You know that song? You do? Funkadelic? That's from maybe their first album. Funkadelic. I got a thing. You got a thing. Everybody's got a thing. When we get together, doing our thing. Promise. each other promise to help your brother right and then what's his name Fuzzy Haskins vocalist Fuzzy Haskins does this break and he comes in I won't do it justice you might

[42:42]

That's right. You know? Difference. Don't think like you think. I don't joke like you joke. Can that be okay? Well, it has to be okay. It has to be okay. There's no alternative. Well, I mean, whatever. The alternative is total war, I guess. No, it has to be okay.

[43:49]

Nothing to attain. A bodhisattva relies on Prajnaparamita. Don't know. Can you include this with other people and with your own mind? With the things you don't like in your own mind? The things that make you uncomfortable in your own mind? When we get together as the Sangha a community for a day abiding forever promise to help each other. in order to help your brother. That's our practice as bodhisattvas in training.

[44:51]

It's very difficult. It's very hard work. But I think it's worthy. There's nothing I'd rather be doing. Oh, that's pretty good timing. I think I'm more or less done. Oh, no, I'm not. Wait, no, I'm not done. Good segue. Thank you, kitchen. Or not exactly segue, but shifting gears. One of these monks is going to check the smoke alarm. It's probably just humidity, but you want to know for sure.

[45:59]

So yeah, the other thing I wanted to say was a little while ago, I'm not sure how long ago because Tassajara, I'm convinced it's not just the fact that we're practicing Zen here, but I think actually the physical location of Tassajara is like Santa Cruz Mystery Spot. I think this place has always been compressing and dilating time even before it was Zen Buddha's training monastery. Anyway, time gets compressed and dilated in Tassajara. So it might have been the day before yesterday and it might have been Kalpas of Ganges rivers of, I don't know, maybe a couple weeks ago. There was a funny, not funny, but for me, thought-provoking, Kokyo error. Funny Kokyo error is like abiding in this effeminate world like a walrus in muddy water.

[47:15]

That's funny. That's a funny Kokyo error. That's funny. may all be equally nervous. That's another good one. No, the Kokyo, on the third, fourth, the last dedication in the morning service, it says something like, may their power and liberation sustain us in our unceasing effort to free all beings so they may dwell in peace. And the Kokyo said, in our increasing effort to free all beings so they may live in peace. And I thought, yeah, maybe I should increase my effort to free all beings so they may live in peace. It was thought-provoking for me. I said, yeah, increase the effort. I should increase my effort. So, we've had...

[48:17]

our wonderful skit night, we've had our mid-practice period event. We are, I believe, officially more than halfway through this practice period. So, maybe now is a good time to think about increase our effort to free all beings so they may dwell in peace. Renew our effort, our commitment to being here, practicing together, a community for a day, abiding forever, renew our commitment to help each other, to be there for each other, to do this difficult and rewarding work of letting down the walls of the mind. to have the freedom from fear, to be with things as it is, and to offer that freedom from fear to each other as a precious gift.

[49:34]

Okay, now I think I'm done. But maybe there's a question or so. Yes, Milo. Can you talk about this phrase you mentioned twice, the community for a day abiding forever? Dogen. Poetry. Speaks to me. Obviously, I memorized it. The feeling of sangha. This is my 21st practice period I told my sister I'm never going to get this Zen thing right then you know between practice periods and summer practice period people come through this amazing valley all the time a river of beautiful people and

[50:49]

Some stick around for a while and move on. Some are literally here just for a day. But the community abides. The practice sustains the community. I think that feeling is something we can tap into and share with each other at any time. So, yeah, it's not so important about which particular people are here at any given time. It's pretty transient. just like everything else.

[51:51]

But that feeling of sangha can abide. It can. Not necessarily. Of course, it always requires our effort and commitment, our increasing effort. But it's not about personalities. It's not about individual people. It's about the triple treasure. I saw Kodo and Steph's hand because I was looking past Milo and I saw Kodo and Steph. It's Kodo. Same question as Milo, thank you. Oh, Steph. When you're talking about no knowledge and no attainment, this idea of non-gaining wondering if you would talk a little bit about how the teaching of non-gaining mind interfaces with kind of the path of self-actualization, like the personal path of becoming something or, yeah.

[53:18]

Well, maybe the way I feel about it this morning is when you let go of trying to get something Trungpa Rinpoche wrote this book Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism. When you abandon practice as a kind of exercise in self-improvement or some Somebody talked about the spiritual marketplace.

[54:29]

Getting something. Making yourself a better person. Take the backward step. What did the man say? carry yourself forward and experience all different things is delusion that you let things come forward on their own and experience themselves is awakening so it could be a kind of uncovering what's already there when you let go when you stop trying so hard you already have it just Let your light shine. How do we do that?

[55:34]

I think it's the oryogi. I'm not sure. I don't know. All right. Yeah, I think it's, for me, provisionally this morning, it's a case of allowing what's already there to come forth in its fullness. Just when Steph is Steph, Zen is Zen. That's all. Yes, it's Ki, then Caitlin. I'd be okay with either of those.

[56:53]

theories, actually. And I could say that we, this Great Assembly, is all Bodhisattvas in training. And I could also say that this Great Assembly is all Buddhas of past, present, and future. And if that's... muddle-headed thinking on my part. Well, so be it. I love, love the story, which I told. I'm aware I told this story last practice period. I'm going to tell it again anyway, because it's about Isan Dorsey and Steve. Have it, Steve. They used to chant, actually, the Heart Sutra. that's on the wall in the kitchen at Berkeley Zen Center, if it's still there, at the bottom of it, that nice calligraphy, it says, it's the older translation that they used to chant, and it says, Anuttara Samyaksan Bodhi.

[58:04]

That's what they used to chant in San Francisco Zen Center, right? They chanted the Sanskrit words. So, you know, Abbot Steve, after he left Zen Center, was a professional landscape gardener, and Isan Dorsey was starting this place as the AIDS plague was happening he started this place in the Castro where he would take care of the sick and dying and Steve went and helped him with landscaping volunteered some help because that's what Bodhisattvas do they practice helpfulness and friendliness and Steve and Isan were working together And he said to him, what are you really doing here? And Isan says, Anuttara Samyak Sam Bodhi.

[59:07]

So he asked what we're really doing. Can our activity, can our actions of body, speech and mind be An expression of Anuttara Samyaksambodhi. This is Dogen's practice enlightenment. According to my limited understanding. Thank you. Caitlin. Can you say something about working with fear? Yeah. I always say my talk is to encourage you in your practice. To encourage. means to offer courage, I think. Courage means having heart. It comes from the heart. Courage does not mean that we all have to acquire a calcified amygdala.

[60:14]

That would actually be a bad idea. I think there's a very good reason why there's only 400 people in... How many people are there in the world? Billions, anyway, who have this disorder, because not having fear is actually, from an evolutionary perspective, a bad idea. That would be bad planning. And courage doesn't mean not having fear. It means being present with fear. It means being present, well, you know, I think I've heard somewhere that our practice is to be present for whatever arises. So when fear arises, you stay present with fear. You're not paralyzed by fear.

[61:16]

when it's fight, flight, or freeze chemicals coursing through your bloodstream? Can you be present with fight, flight, freeze chemicals coursing through your bloodstream? Well, yeah, you know, maybe, maybe not. Maybe it's total freakout. Then you come back. Like I said earlier, you know, maybe... one of the things you get to practice with is trauma. I mean, actually, we all get to practice with trauma. Birth is very traumatic. It just is. Even if you were born in a hot tub with scented candles and ragas playing in the background, I don't care. It's still traumatic. You came out of that place and into this world. we all get to practice with trauma.

[62:22]

We all get to practice with fear. So, how? This... This practice... is not limited to sitting, right? This is not only practice while sitting. It is like a hammer striking emptiness. Before and after, its exquisite peel permeates everywhere. Awesome. What a guy, that Dogen. It permeates your life. So the sitting helps us to train to be present for what's happening. Really. In my estimation, it helps a lot. We make this tiny vow to just stay present for what's happening.

[63:25]

And we do get better at it. Oh, I said it! Gee, I hope I'm not guilty of having a gaming idea. Oh, well. Yeah, you get better. You cultivate. We cultivate together. We cultivate that fundamental okayness. It doesn't happen overnight. It doesn't happen... Maybe all at once. All of a sudden, I can be with anything. Hey! Woo-hoo! No, but little by little, I think do increase our capacity to be with whatever, including fear, courage. Courage means going forward in the presence of fear. Going forward, being present with fear. Attending to the breath. This time is completely satisfying and it's what I came for.

[64:28]

I'm very grateful that you gave it before my departure. Yes. Did you have your hand up? No. Okay. Maybe people's legs are getting tired. Maybe it's just me. Thank you very much for your attention. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click giving.

[65:25]

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