This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good afternoon. I'm going to speak on the subject of there's no escape in this moment. And it's not exactly my own title. It comes from the title of a chapter in a book by Katagiri Roshi called You Have to Say Something. And that book was edited from a series of talks by my Dharma brother, Steve Hagen. And so this is what he has to say. about there's no escaping this moment.

[01:02]

When you sit in Zazen, how many beings sit with you? Right where you sit, many beings, emotions, thoughts, memories, physical sensations, appear from moment to moment. Yet, this moment is very simple. So why not just take care of it with all of your heart? But you can't. There are too many beings there, and they drag you away. You start to think of other things that you could be doing, better things, things that would bring you more benefit than just sitting here doing nothing. But the idea of benefit is just another creature sitting right here in that very moment. You think, oh yes, there is something better I can do. But your body and mind are still just sitting here.

[02:07]

It is only your thinking that has gone off wandering, stumbling over all the beings of the moment. What about those persons who are facing death? Is their situation different from yours? There is really no difference. It is exactly the same. No matter where we are, no matter what we face, we have to take care of this moment. That's all. This moment is not the idea of this moment. If you see it as a concept, it becomes frozen. But the real moment is not frozen. Whatever we might think about this moment, our practice is just to return to it. This moment is where all beings exist. Even though we have doubts and fears, even though we ask, why do I have to die, no answer appears.

[03:10]

Only this moment is real. There is no escaping this moment. All beings, including doubt and fear, drop off in this moment. Your situation is really no different from someone who is dying. When you see death, you will see there is no escape from this moment. So what should you do? The only thing to do is to see and deal with this moment as it is right now, right here. So, all of you, have made some amount of great effort to get to this place called Tasahara, where the practice is to just find out what this moment is. And yet, despite all of the great effort you have made to get here, what happens

[04:19]

to you when you walk in the Zen though and sit down on your cushion and begin to do Zazen. I wonder. I think that maybe many things come up in your mind. However, even though I think you all have been taught quite extensively about what to do in Zazen, which is we just practice to bring our minds back to this moment. When we see our mind moving somewhere other than here, we just practice. It's our practice. That's all it is. Just practicing over and over again, bringing it back. Yet, it doesn't seem so easy to do. Yet, on the other hand, there's something very easy about it.

[05:25]

So what is it that makes it difficult? Basically, I believe something is essentially from a very deep place inside. We're trying to escape from this moment because we essentially aren't completely happy with it, as it is. Something is saying no, no to this, in a very basic way. Otherwise, why do you think in Zazen? Basically, our thinking is just a way to occupy our time in a certain way to not be here. Because we think that there's something else other than this.

[06:33]

Somewhere. Right? I mean, it's like we think this isn't quite it. This can't be it. Because there's got to be something a little more. And actually, this is... if we examine all the Zen stories in literature, it usually comes down to this point, that we're looking for something, looking for something, other than just this place where we're at. Constantly seeking. And that's why they, when we say, you know very well, I think Zen stories say, the moment you seek it, you lose it. But that seeking is so subtle. And where does the seeking take place? Just right at this place where we are. So another way we can look at it too is there might be some fear involved.

[07:51]

in just letting go of everything, of who and what we are, which is Chodun Zazen, essentially. Because this moment that we're living in basically is the manifestation of all of the conditions of our life. Not only ours, but every human being that's ever lived, our whole culture, right now, right here, in our own personal life, individual life, this is the manifestation of all, of everything. And that's basically what I call me. And I basically have a pretty strong attachment to this thing called me. And basically, I would like it to be preserved in this state forever.

[08:57]

But unfortunately, reality, it's not reality. Reality is indicating to us that this thing called me is very impermanent. Very impermanent. So, all of you have seen this. to some degree or another. And that's why you're here. And that's why you practice that. Because seeing into this place or this conditions where this thing called me won't be here forever is painful and even fearful. But everybody, all the Zen teachers know that too. Even Shakyamuni Buddha knew that.

[10:01]

He knew about fear. He has a sutra in the Nikayas called Fear and Dread. It's my favorite sutra. Because it's so, what is it? Assuring. You know, we think that the Buddha Shakyamuni was a completely different person than we are. Don't you think? It's hard to think that Shakyamuni Buddha was like us. But he knew about fear and dread. In fact, when he discovered it, he said, why do I always dwell on being afraid and dreading the next thing. Why do I dwell in that place?

[11:01]

And he sought to seek it out, actually. So he went to places that made him afraid. He actually sought it out. Like he would walk in a jungle at night, and he'd hear, kind of a branch break or something like that. And I suppose it's the same around here, but where I live, we have lots of wild animals around. And if you're walking at night and you hear something click in the woods, you feel pretty afraid. It's pretty afraid. And the practice Shakyamuni did was a very interesting practice. he did something that we normally don't do. For instance, he said he had the four postures that we have of the body, sitting, lying down, standing up, and what's the other one?

[12:10]

Walking, right. So he said, whatever I was doing with the body, and this fear and dread would come upon me, I would just continue to do that same action. So that's opposite from our normal inclination, right? For instance, if I'm walking in the woods where I live at Ho Kyoji, and I am walking, and I hear a little thing in the woods that goes click, click, something, I go, what do I do? I stop. But I... So what do we do? We stop. We do something with our body to try to make the fear and dread stop. We change our bodies. Or if we're lying down and we hear it, we suddenly sit up, start sitting. We do something different than the position we're in. But his idea was we just continue.

[13:16]

to remain in that same bodily position whenever this fear and dread comes upon us. Why? Because it doesn't, he's like our whole Kyozan Mai that we chanted this morning, where it says, turning away and touching are not it. So turning away is when we experience something very difficult in our life, call it fear, doubt. whatever, we have a tendency to want to turn away from that. Very strong tendency. And when we have very wonderful experiences in our life, we have a tendency to want to move toward those things. Actually, I believe that... we ourselves as human beings consider ourselves the most sophisticated species that's living on this earth.

[14:21]

That's our analysis. However, at the kind of the bottom of ourselves, if we examine ourselves deeply, I think there's only two things going on. One's called Pleasant, unpleasant. Pleasant, unpleasant. Every moment something's coming up and we have either a pleasant sensation or a neutral. Pleasant, neutral, or unpleasant. We're constantly trying to make something pleasant and we're constantly avoiding unpleasant. And if we examine our zazen, I think we're doing the same thing. We're trying to, if there's some feeling that's not pleasant, we try to create something.

[15:29]

We try to think of something that makes this situation pleasant, so we can feel pleasant. It's the function of our thinking. So, what about those persons who are facing death? Is their situation different from yours? Obviously, Kairagiri Roshi said he doesn't think so. And I don't either. Because basically, we're in the same place as someone facing death, too. It's not so different. Because sooner or later, we'll be dead. And it'll actually be pretty soon, even for those of you who are kind of young. It comes pretty fast.

[16:30]

And I also think that's why you're here. You see something about that. And something's saying, you're asking something, is there something I'm missing? So the difference maybe with a person who's dying, let's just say dying means they have received a diagnosis of which the rapidity of the event is being kind of escalated. That's all. Otherwise, we're all in the same boat, basically. I used to work as a nurse on a cancer ward for 10 years, so I saw a number of people face their deaths.

[17:35]

So the only thing that happens, you know, when we actually get the fatal diagnosis, of which we already have, of course, we already have it, but somehow it means something a little more when someone with a white coat shows you some... and says, oh, it's going to happen, you know, and it's like, oh, my God, you know, why me, you know, or something, some shift. So there's kind of like, well, there's not, so what happens is we just, we realize, oh, there really is no escape. So we're thrown back. Of course, this happens also when anyone close to us dies as well. Same situation. same pain. But we should, as much as possible, try to see this when our bodies and minds are very healthy, when we have good health, and work with it then.

[18:44]

And not wait until our bodies are very compromised because Well, sometimes sitting zazen is hard work with our body. So, you know, if we read all the stories, they all say pretty much the same thing. Of just, what do we do in zazen? What's our practice? Dogen says in the Fukanzazengi, says, Put aside the intellectual practice of investigating words and chasing phrases. Learn to take the backward step that turns the light and shines it inward. Body and mind of themselves will drop away and your original face will manifest. If you want to realize such, get to work on such right now.

[19:47]

Put aside all involvements and suspend all affairs. Do not think good or bad. Do not judge true or false. Give up the operations of mind, intellect, and consciousness. Stop measuring with thoughts, ideas, and views. Have no designs on becoming a Buddha. So basically this is the same message that's always coming down. So... Just put aside all involvements and suspend all affairs means by the time that we do practice Zazen, can we just suspend all of our affairs? If you have a job here that has some major responsibility, it's difficult practice because usually through Zazen, we turn those things over in our mind. But for the time that you're practicing Zazen, can you, as much as possible, just suspend all of that?

[21:03]

And do not think good or bad means not to evaluate how are Zazens doing. Because Karigiri Roshi used to say, he says, we can't measure things by our own yardstick. In other words, you can't measure yourself. We think we can. We think we're actually pretty good at it. We even think we're experts, actually. But really, you're the one who has the least capability of measuring yourself. Because everything's just coming from your perspective. So you can't measure yourself. It's impossible. Give up the operations of mind, intellect, and consciousness. And stop measuring with thoughts, ideas, and views. And finally, have no designs on becoming a Buddha. I think you have heard that before.

[22:06]

Because once we do give up the operations of mind, intellect, and consciousness and stop measuring with thoughts, ideas, and views, once we actually have that experience in Zazen, if only briefly, it's a pretty liberating experience. We feel like, this feels pretty good, not to have so much moving around. And if we continue to practice that more deeply, we begin to think, maybe I'm going to get enlightened. We might just think so. So that's our natural response. That's the subtlety of our desire, that we want to capture some beautiful state of mind and have it for ourselves.

[23:20]

Well, from Zen Mind Beginner's Mind, Suzuki Rosh, says, while you are continuing this practice week after week, year after year, your experience will become deeper and deeper, and your experience will cover everything you do in your everyday life. The most important thing is to forget all gaining ideas, all dualistic ideas. In other words, just practice zazen in a certain posture. Do not think about anything. Just remain on your cushion without expecting anything. Then eventually you will reserve your own true nature. That is to say, your own true nature reserves itself. So, I think the thing that strikes me the most in this posture is where he says, just practice Azen in a certain posture.

[24:36]

Yeah. It means, essentially, this practice, I believe, comes down to what we do with our body, not so much what we do with our mind. How do we actually practice with our bodies? Kagari Roshi always would say in his... he would say, through all of our activity, through everything you do all day long, and then he would say, when you gashow, gashow, when you bow, bow. It's like, and it always struck me a little strange when he would say that. Now, maybe it doesn't to you folks, but because you're always doing it all day, but I thought, bow, you know, like, I thought, bowing and gashow, it's like, that's kind of a narrow, do you know what I mean? Do you understand what I mean? It's like, He saw his daily life only as gashowing and bowing. I said, yeah, what about brushing your teeth and walking around and doing dishes and everything like that?

[25:46]

Of course, there's no difference. But him coming from Japan out of a monastery and being who he was, he always said, daily life is just doing gashow and bowing. I thought, well, there's more going on than that. But anyway, the main point, though, is when we bring our hands together in Gashou, how can we just bring our minds right to our body and practice there? Well, let me just talk about one more. and then I think I'd just like to invite some comments or questions before I go on. This is from Zen Master, a recording sayings of Zen Master Joshu, translated by James Green.

[26:53]

A monk asked Joshu, I wonder if a person of true practice can be perceived by gods and demons or not. Joshu said, they can perceive the person. The monk said, where's the person's fault? Joshu said, faults are wherever they are looked for. The monk said, in that case, it is not practice. Joshu said, it is practice. So, in this story, The monk approaches Zen Master Joshu and says, I believe he has a feeling that his practice is very deep and true. He says, I wonder if a person of true practice, that means he's wondering about himself, can be perceived by gods and demons or not.

[28:00]

And how do you think he wants Joshu to answer? Oh no. I think that's what, the monk wants Jyoshu to answer that way, I believe. He has a little desire to have some approval about his practice. But Jyoshu says they can perceive the person. So, I think then the monk is a little disappointed, I believe. Saying, well, what am I doing wrong? I mean, give it you have to give the person credit that he stays right there with Joshu and doesn't get mad or something like that or turn away from this situation. He says, where is the person's fault? Where am I going wrong?

[29:02]

Where don't I see something? Where's my fault? Joshu responds, faults are where they are looked for. And then the monk basically falls into, this is like our demonic realm. He says, then, this isn't practice. Now, this is what we encounter a lot, especially, I believe, in a situation like you are practicing. Because when I say there's no escaping this moment, in a certain way, there's no escape for you from Tassahara. Am I correct? I live in a community, too.

[30:06]

There's just four of us. But I used to live there by myself. I lived there by myself for seven years. I thought, this is terrible. It's a terrible situation. My vision is to create community, not for me to live there by myself. It's not my vision. It's not my life's dream to be a hermit. So in the past year and a half, three other people have come to reside. Now I think, you don't want to know it. But you can imagine what I think. Right? The reason you can imagine is because you know. You know the situation. Why? Because we're so intimate. This is the kind of a practice that we're doing with each other that's so incredibly intimate that we find out everything Not so much about other people, but about ourselves.

[31:12]

Through other people. And a lot of it isn't completely... What's the word? Well, you can imagine. There's sometimes some shocking element that we find out about ourselves because we don't see ourselves from the big world. We just see ourselves... through our own self, not through the eyes of others. So in this kind of community, we have to work at being very open-hearted with our communication. So that's actually what's going on right here. When Joshu's responding to this person, he's telling them that there's a way to practice more intimately than how you're doing. So in the last line, the monk says, in that case it is not practiced, means that place, that place where probably I imagine all of you have been one time or another, unless this is just your first or second day, maybe, you know, I don't know how many that's the case, but if it's your first or second day or third or fourth, maybe fifth, I don't know, but you'll think, oh, you know, you'll arrive, and this might be the case, but you'll think, oh, this place is so beautiful.

[32:41]

Such a beautiful place. Because that's what people think when they come to my place, too. I don't think it's that beautiful. But it's beautiful in a different way. Your hills are ten times taller than ours. They're 4,000 feet. Mine's 400 feet. But still, there's a kind of a beauty at my place that's different from here. It's very deep, lush green. Kind of spacious, I think. And they can't see anything of any human-created structure, except a high wire. In any event, when people arrive and it's very quiet, they get out of the car, take a breath, and they don't move for like 30 seconds. They say, oh, if I could only live here... On the other hand, when we live in community, we bump up against each other.

[33:47]

You've probably heard the expression too, but Katagiri Roshi used to say living in a monastic environment or community environment, it's like in Japan they used to clean potatoes by putting them in a big barrel. Have you heard of this? They roll the barrel around, and so they clean the potatoes by then all bumping up against each other. And he compared this to each of the members in the community as a potato. That's how we kind of knock all of our unsavory qualities off of ourselves, by bumping up against each other. So the final point here, though, is when he says, then it is not practiced. What I feel from this... is a great amount of discouragement from the monk. Everything I've been doing isn't practice. This isn't it.

[34:49]

It's like at those moments when you feel the worst you've ever felt here in your practice. And you almost feel... oh, something's wrong. It's in your body, in your consciousness. There's nothing your consciousness can do to make it right. It's just, oh, no. It's that place that feels very dismal and very challenging. And Joshua says, That's where we practice. That's it. That's that place. That's the real place where this practice comes alive. If we can stay with that place. That's like the most painful place that's coming out from our practice.

[35:51]

So we practice that in Zazen, too, just by not turning away from anything. That's why all these things are emerging. These m. What are they called? Beings. Beings all arising in Zazen. Not to turn away from anything and also not to go toward anything. Which means if we do that in Zazen, we can also do that through our whole life. Which also means when we have some conflict or some difficulty with someone, we can just meet the conflict in the same way that we do Zazen. It's the same practice. And maybe it's uncomfortable or something, but still, we just stay there. We just stay with them. And that's where we're actually practicing. That's where we grow in our practice. So, I think you've heard, too, where Dogen says,

[37:00]

To be a Buddha is to have great realization about delusion. That means we have great realization, great awareness of how deluded we are. Where's the moment when we're straying away from this moment? Where does that occur? Where's the very beginning place? That's to have great realization of delusion. That's a Buddha. Ordinary people have great delusion about enlightenment. Delusion about enlightenment means you're thinking that it's somewhere else other than in this very moment where that delusion arises. It can't be anywhere else. There's nowhere else we can go. Well, I think we have about 20 minutes left.

[38:09]

I think that's about all I have to say, at least for right now. Unless you can encourage me to say more by some question or discussion or rebuttal or something. Yes? The practice comes down to what we do with our bodies, but so much with what our life seems to be about is what's going on in our heads. Lately, as I said, I've been amazed at how delicious simply a process of thinking is, not necessarily no particular wonderful fantasy, but simply just the experience of thinking. I'm so amazed that I really want to just engage in thinking. Yeah, right. That's because we're addicted to it. It's an addiction. I mean, I'm amazed that it is sort of like that.

[39:15]

It's delicious. Yeah. Right. I mean, seriously speaking, I believe it's an addiction. I mean, of course, there's a healthy way we can use our thinking. I don't mean to have to cut it off completely. But we don't use it properly. We misuse it. But we all do it. That's why we don't really think of it as an addiction, you know, as a 12-step program, you know. We haven't set one up saying, I'm addicted to my thinking. I'm a thinker, you know, whatever. I'm a thinkaholic. I don't know. So it's not generally recognized as an addiction. But if we examine subtly the same behavior, for instance, how do we deal with an addiction? First off, we have to be aware that we're addicted.

[40:19]

We can't do anything about it until we see that it causes us some problems. Sure, it's delicious. Just like a lot of... things are. Cherry cheesecake. If you're a food person, cherry cheesecake and ice cream are delicious. We can go on and on about all the delicious things in all the various ways. But to a thinker, thinkaholic, the thinking is delicious because we create it for one thing, It's my creation. So we don't want to give it up because I created this thought. And if I continue to think it and think it over and create this wonderful story, I'll receive some pleasure from it in the end, kind of.

[41:31]

However, that pleasure doesn't work. we find over time it doesn't work. It's just pleasure in the body, in the mind, brain. Sure, kind of a pattern, biochemical pattern. It's just a biochemical pattern that simulates pleasure. So we experience the pleasure and we seek to recreate it. However, there's something also that tells us, oh, wait a minute. Something's not quite right about this. Something's not totally satisfying. And that's when we start to wake up to the addiction of it. So just like an addiction, we can say, let's use booze. You can say you have one glass of wine, and that's like one thought or something. And so we have a second thought

[42:34]

connected to the first thought. That's like two glasses of wine. And the second thought is much more pleasant than the first thought. And then the third thought. Wow, things are really getting interesting. Like the third glass of wine. And the fourth, and the fifth. Sooner or later, though, that five, six, seven, eight glasses of wine is like, yeah, well, you notice that the effect, even though the immediate effect is something... somewhat, you know, no pain. There's no pain. Let's put it that way. But later we experience pain from it. Same with our thinking. So the sooner we can see the thinking process evolving, and that's through our zazen, through just awareness, the more we have the opportunity to stop it in the beginning. where it begins.

[43:36]

And the more actually we do that, the more we see there's something very wholesome going on about this that's different from just the addictive thought process. Yes? First, it seems like I'm just kind of taking the metaphor too seriously or too literally. Like you were saying earlier about not stopping what you're doing. You know, if you're walking something, you react to something even if you stop it. It feels like ignore that impulse. And a lot of times, I mean, those impulses and reactions can Yeah, yeah.

[44:44]

We just had a rattlesnake. Well, it's another story. I mean, there is space, too. Right, right. Right, so we have to look at everything. Yeah, because every time we say one thing, we can say it from the other side. The second point I really wonder is, is there a place for planning for the future in the present normal? Yeah. Right. That's something that I don't really understand. Well, you just say, now I'm going to plan for the future. You sit down and now I'm going to do it. But how do you know when you're, you know, like... indulging in that or doing it too much or just not being... Well, probably when your body starts to get all twisted up and, you know, there's a time when we can plan and it feels it's going well and then all of a sudden things start going all convoluted and mixed up and things.

[45:57]

So maybe stop at that point. And set aside, do some zazen. forget about it, and then come back and plan some more. Well, it comes up in Zazen a lot. Yeah, well, I think probably the best practice is try to not plan for the future in Zazen. Just let that go. And then sooner or later, actually, you know, things aren't really so complicated as we think they are. So I think the answer will, you know, what you need to do for the future will arise kind of spontaneously. But, you know, take some time to plan, seriously plan, and then forget about it. And sooner or later the plan will emerge. It's really not completely about you either to figure it out. In fact, you yourself probably is just a tiny piece.

[46:58]

What you said about, I guess sometimes, like, if someone's having, like, someone comes to a place of great doubt. Great doubt. And kind of what you were saying is, you know, you have, to me, you know, it's just like almost a bodily, like, what am I doing? Is this right? Right. And then all these other thoughts start spinning off of that, but there's that initial, like, almost physicality to it. Is it the same process where you just kind of let, just view that as what it is, but don't, I mean, I know the ideal is just to let it occur and not attach yourself or go along with it as much as you can, but is it the same process as yours, for example? Yeah, well, yeah. Great doubt is in your body. So just let yourself, and it's painful. So just let yourself experience that pain in your body.

[48:08]

And anything you do to try to figure it out with your mind is just an attempt to not feel that pain. Believe it? Well, even calling it doubt is a way for you to try to figure out what it is. So it's a... Because... Well, like also Joshua said too, and Master Joshua said, what does one do when all the messengers arrive in the courtyard at the same time? So, and he said, don't call out to them by name. So what it means is when all the messengers arrive means, well, it's the same as all these beings arrive. in Arzazen. And what the monk is asking about is, what do we do when we're terribly confused?

[49:12]

Which is doubt. What do we do when we're just terribly confused? All the messengers from every place, no, no, you're completely wrong. No, you're right. No, you're doing okay. No, you're not. They're coming in from all different angles, assaulting you from every place. And basically, he's saying don't call out to them by name. Meaning, you're trying to understand what this is about with your conceptual mind. But just let them come in. Let them come in. Because sometimes we use the phrase let go. We always use that, let go. And that's a good term. There's nothing wrong with that. But the other side of letting go that's letting go is letting it in. Letting in. We just let in everything. Because sometimes letting go can be kind of trying to push something away that doesn't necessarily ready to be pushed away.

[50:14]

Just like when we say delusions are numberless, I vow to end them, and beings are numberless. I vow to free them. But in order to free beings, they need their life. All these beings, these beings are the same beings that are just inside of us. I vow to free them. In other words, all of the beings inside of us, they need their expression. Maybe there's a lot of anger, a lot of hatred. inside of us. Could be. A lot of disappointment or something. So the way we give freedom to them is to experience them in our body. Just have the experience of it.

[51:19]

Experience it. Then they need to be experienced. Our anger needs to be experienced. When we've experienced it, it goes. The function of anger is to feel it. But it's such a painful feeling that we don't want to. It just doesn't feel good. If you know and you get angry, it just feels horrible. It just feels horrible. still we have to allow ourselves to just experience it, feel it. The same with doubt. Doubt is also a horrible feeling. But we have to experience it. Down to our last few minutes, yes. So Joshu says, faults are where they are looked for.

[52:20]

That's a very fascinating statement for me. It sounds like saying something about judgment or about creating a sense of separation that creates a difficulty or that judgment becomes a look. Could you say more about that? Well, it's just our own self-evaluation that's working very dynamically, judging ourselves, a success, failure, did it good, but didn't do so good. And of course, as much as we swing to one side, we'll go to the other. So it's like a pendulum. If one day we're feeling, oh, we did really fantastic about this particular thing, we can be assured that there'll be another day.

[53:26]

It'll be go just as far this way, thinking we did so miserable at something. So we have to be careful about both sides. Thinking how wonderful we've done something doesn't really have any more weight than how bad we are about something. So seeing those two things, watching expectations, what we expect of ourselves, I'm watching that very closely. Because inevitably, any expectation we have of ourselves, we won't meet. But it's just the self-perpetuating evaluation that we're kind of evaluating ourselves is where we find our faults. Either in ourselves or others. So is there room for discernment?

[54:30]

Yes. Yes. Yes, we have to do that. I mean, just like taking time out to plan, we do have to use our conscious mind and say, you know, based on something that's happening in our body or mind or feelings or whatever, say, oh, something here needs some adjustment. you know, either in terms of somebody else or myself, or they need to talk, you know, something, because something needs to be met with. So, yeah. Yes? What's the name of the sutra? It's in the Majima Nakaya. Does anyone remember it?

[55:31]

Is it number 12 or something? I can't remember the number. But it's one of the early ones. You can go up in the library in the Majima Nakayas and look in the first... They have a summary of them, and it'll talk about fear and dread. So... And it's in the first 20. I can't remember which one. Thank you very much. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[56:25]

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