This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. So today I'd like to start on the San Sui Kyo part about mountains belonging to people, to those who love them. and then tomorrow to bring up hooking fish and the water, and then the last day, finishing. I think that's how it's sectioned off. We'll see if that can happen. Yesterday I got a wonderful note from the Tonto where he had drawn some Kasahara merit badges. There was... It had a beautiful picture of the kabaku with incense coming up.

[01:01]

That was the Chitani merit badge. Then there was some oreoki with three bowls, little bowls. And then I sent him back the Zazen merit badge, which was just empty. I think Bodhidharma was on to this, you know? So I wanted to start again by just reading some excerpts from some of these Suzuki Roshi lectures where he mentions Sansui Kyo, and then move on to those who love the mountains. And also, just as I've been talking with people, and as you know, I want to have some meeting with everyone in the practice period before the end. I think people are taking the opportunity to express gratitude and, you know, this sense that we may never meet this way again, you know, or we will never meet this way again, which is actually always true.

[02:19]

You know, not just the last dokeshanna of the practice period, but each moment is... we will never meet this way again. It's okay. So whatever we're feeling during these days, gratitude, anticipation, relief, sadness, a mixture of all those things, joy, this quality of meeting each other fully, meeting each other without our preconceptions, without our labels, making that effort to drop our fixed ideas about who we are, who each other are, who we are in relationship to this person, and having a fresh freshness.

[03:26]

This is a practice, you know, this is We have to bring it to mind because our default is to fall back on some idea we have about each other and to hold to that in a way that unconsciously we don't even realize we've already got everybody pegged. So this is a practice. And I was just reminded, I think there's been just one time in my life where I knew that when I said goodbye to this person, that would be the last time I would see them in a conscious way. I think when my parents died, I was there, but they weren't present, really, to know it was the last time. They were both by the end in kind of... I guess you could say, some kind of unconscious situation, although they may have been aware in some other way.

[04:33]

But the one person for whom I knew this would be the last, they knew it was the last, and we spoke about it, was Darlene. And Leslie was there with me when our women's group met, knowing this would be the last time we'd see each other. And she... wouldn't be coming back to San Francisco and would be staying up at Russian River. It was so amazing actually to be that conscious and there for that last time together. It's kind of rare, but to have that feeling always when we're with people, because it's true. This may be the last time. So yesterday, I had mentioned a few things that Suzuki Roshi said about helping, how to help people.

[05:40]

And I think many of us really want to know how to help people, often ask about helping people. How do you really help people? So in this same lecture, he comes back to it, and I just wanted to read some more of these excerpts. I think it'd be wonderful to do a practice period where we just read Suzuki Roshi lectures and discuss them. It would be wonderful. So this was in a Q&A. Somebody asked, can you say something about how we can help each other? And he says, hmm... Uh-huh. Best way to help others is, you know, to have good practice. If you have good practice, that is the best way to help others. That is very true. To help others is not different from to help themselves. This is again, you know, the first principle or emptiness that you and others are not too.

[06:52]

One, you see? How you help others is, there's no special way to help others. Let them know our human nature and let them know how we have problems. And to encourage people by your own practice, that is the best way to help people. You know, learning will not help. Almsgiving will not help. But when you, and that's underlined, so I think he emphasized, when you follow, when you understand what is human being and what is the way for human beings to follow Buddhist way is, you know, how to help people. We should be concentrated on that point. And we shouldn't try to help people by giving something or by some special way, okay? And then it goes in, I read this yesterday about his happiness is to suffer with people or to enjoy and maybe suffer more and enjoy less.

[08:09]

And then somebody else says, what do you mean when you say help people? What kind of help do you mean? Define the word. Yeah, that is maybe a good question. If you know what is help, then you will know how you will help people. It is rather difficult to explain. But you may understand, you know, how do you feel when you're helped by people? I say, but strictly speaking, or we say, to save sentient beings, to save others, to save means to give perfect understanding of the problem of birth and death, or true meaning of our life, is, you know, how you help people. After knowing many things, you know, you will come to difficult things. So unless you don't have good understanding or good experience of human life, meaning of life, you cannot help people.

[09:19]

I say help people, but save people. Why we save people is they are suffering. They are in the midst of the problem. So helping people, we have to understand human life and our own human life and our own problems and to have suffered our problems and to understand what it feels like when others help us and then letting people understand about human life and birth and death helps people. Then there's this whole question about somebody working in the kitchen and I just thought this was really useful. So somebody says, if I'm cutting apples in the kitchen and eating, if I eat them, is that bad dharma? And he says, and then there's some words that they don't say, so he's speaking, I think, to the words that weren't transcribed.

[10:26]

I think it was something about your big mind. Isn't it okay in big mind if I eat while I'm cooking or something? Yeah, you did, he says. I don't know. And then he says, bad. Again, you know, when you realize it, as Buddha said, I found out the carpenter who is making the house. And he laughed. Do you understand what it means? I will find out the carpenter who is making the house. Who found out the carpenter who is making the house? Who found out someone picking up, you know, small piece of apple? Who found out someone eating apples? Buddha found out a carpenter who was building your house. Did you understand? And then they said something which isn't transcribed. And he says, to feel that way is good, but I cannot say to you to eat, you know, apples while you are cutting is good. But I agree with you.

[11:29]

I think they might have said something about big mind. But you know, on the other hand, you should know that who found out, big mind found out, Buddha found out. And then he thumps the microphone. That, I don't know what he was doing as he thumps on the microphone. Buddha is still alive in your mind. He will help you. He will always help you. So I cannot say bad practice, but I am not, again, you know, I'm not encouraging you to eat apples in the kitchen. This is the point, you know, something I want you to be very careful when you listen to my lecture. I may say that is good that you have, you know, big mind always to see yourself, basically, but sometimes I just say that is good, that is not bad practice. I may say briefly instead of explaining, you know, carefully in that way.

[12:30]

So you may think it's okay for us to eat, you know, in the kitchen while we are cooking, as many people do. It is okay, you know, because he said it is okay, but this time he said okay. So I want you to be very careful. It takes time if I explain, you know. And then this other student says about Buddha, Buddha knew that one of the people did something wrong, but is it really something wrong? I mean, is it a true confession of something being wrong? Or is it just something imposed by Buddha where we have a rule? If the rule was you should eat in the kitchen while you were cooking, then we would feel bad if we didn't eat while we were cooking. And then Suzuki Rishi totally interrupts him, says, talks over student who's continuing to. That is just, you know, argument. And he's laughing. It doesn't make sense. And the student says, what doesn't make sense?

[13:31]

Hmm. that there could be rules like that, you know. You can create for one or two days, you can, you know, if you work in kitchen, you should eat. That will last one hour or two hours, but that, it cannot be the rule, you know. And then the student, the reason I'm asking, and what I don't understand to some extent, is in this procession of rules, In some words you can't hear, we have this idea of rules. If we didn't have an idea of rules, a rule about not eating, Suzuki Roshi interrupts him. You know, when you say so, that is already, you know, an idea of the absolute. In the realm of the absolute, there's no rules. There cannot be any rules, you see. There is confusion. You confuse absolute and the second principle. Do you understand? Student, no. Suzuki Roshi, no, as if echoing student.

[14:32]

Student, I can understand why there is a rule about food, but Suzuki Roshi interrupts. You see, I don't understand how you... No. When we talk about things as it is, you know, like a scientist, that is the rule which helping is, it is observation of the first principle, emptiness. And when we accept our human nature and how to apply, how to have more organized life as a human being, you know, that rule is just for human being, not for trees or water or some chemical happening, but just for human being, which is so selfish. That is secondary rule, the rules for human being. So you shouldn't compare. You shouldn't talk like you are like a cat or a dog. You are worse than a cat or a dog. Do you understand? No. Suzuki Roshi, for instance, in the city, student, someplace other than here, yes, Suzuki Roshi, yes, that kind of life will not last.

[15:47]

That is just bubbles, tentative bubbles, which cannot last. When our rules, our way of life is not based on our human nature, it doesn't last, you know? As long as you're young, it's maybe okay. But everyone is growing, you know, and world is changing day by day. We cannot exist unless we know our human nature. I am not, you know, I have no special, you know, superimposed idea. That is what I'm talking about, you know. I am not forcing you on you anything. just to understand what is a human being. That is, things as it is. You see? That is the point of my talk. If we do not have so many students at Tassar, we don't have to have rules, have to have rules like this. We must, you know, practice our way with many people, so we have rules. Rules are something we create, which someone... which is...

[16:50]

Rules is not something which we create, some special person create for the sake of Buddhism or the sake of Zen or the sake of the leader to have, but something which we need. That is a rule. So we can change it if it's not right, and we're improving our rules. Maybe we're spending too much time in discussion about our rules. I feel in that way. But still, I appreciate your effort to establish some rules for us. and he goes on about the Buddha didn't establish precepts, disciples established precepts. Buddha said, you shouldn't run away from the temple when you are listening to lecture. That's a precept. For very good students, there is no rule. Rule is necessary, but students make so many rules. That is, you know, rules projected human nature. We need it, you know, not Buddhas, not the universe.

[17:53]

Whether this earth would vanish from the universe is not a big problem. It's okay for the universe. If we want to protect this earth, we should study more. And then he says this thing about when he first came to the city, he didn't have any rules. When I came here, it is, when I came to San Francisco, I had no rules for you to observe. I sit and practice zazen and recite sutra when I wanted to. People came, that's all. One after another, they come. And as you are so many, we have so many people now, I must have rules, that's all. So it's too soon to worry about it. Buddha will take care of everything. And if Buddhist rule is good, it will help, you know. That is why I become angry, you know, to see someone who talks about Japanese way or Buddhist way, you know. Actually, if you don't want Buddhist way, Why didn't you have some other rules, you know?

[18:55]

I think Buddha's way is pretty good because after Buddha's time, Buddha's idea, Buddha's precepts is a way of life and the rules belongs to human being, not Buddha. Buddha has first principle. Human being has second principle for themselves. So this kind of understanding is, you know, very suitable idea of rules. And this he kind of moves into when you leave Tassajara, so I think I'll just say a little bit more. This is longer than I thought I would do. So I want you to be very sincere with yourself about your future, too. You shouldn't depend on anything. Only thing you depend on is your zazen practice. Without saying anything, if you practice every day, then you will have students.

[20:01]

You will have friends. that you may need some rules. What time do you start zazen or something like that? That's enough. You don't have to worry about so many rules, which we need at Tassajara, okay? So I want each student to practice our zazen wherever you are. That will be the best help for the people. And some more things happen then, case by case. You should think about it, that's all. you will find out how to help people, especially when you have experience of practice at Tassajara. It will be a great, great help for you when you have yourself. You shouldn't depend on Tassajara too much. All, you know, confusion comes from that point because you depend on Tassajara too much. Buddha said, you know, without depending on yourself, you know, how is it possible? to depend on something else. Only thing you can depend on is you yourself.

[21:05]

That is very true. Only when you depend on yourself you will be very kind. Something flowing over, you know, from you will help people without trying to help people. If you depend on something special then nothing will come out from you. If you depend on something special, then nothing will come out from you. If people ask a question and you say, read, and if someone asks you what to do, oh, we have rules here, so why don't you read this and that? In that way, you cannot, you will not have any friends. You're always trying to establish something like Tassara. I have no such idea, you know.

[22:05]

I have no such idea for you to establish anything like this. If tasara practice is good enough to be a good example of other groups, maybe they may follow us. But we should not have any idea of to be a good example of others. Anyway, we should make our best. That's all, you know. It cannot be more than that. If it is more than that, tasara is involved in wrong practice. It is not Buddhist practice. This was from August 71, so this is really near the end of his life from Tassajara. So we are moving to this next section although we say that mountains belong to the country, actually they belong to those who love them.

[23:19]

This is a very well-known phrase, and I think a phrase that we love quite a bit. Actually, the word love here is this character. I just wrote it twice. It has a heart in the center of it, And it's a character that's used usually in a negative sense as like desire or thirsting or in a Buddhist sense it's usually kind of negative qualities clinging that kind of attachment. But the Buddha Dogen, I mean the old Buddha Dogen, uses it in a positive sense here. And it's also that character is used when the when the Bible is translated, for God's love, they use this same character. So it has both, in Chinese, it means to love and take care of beings, but it's often used negatively. Dogen uses it positively. So in our common understanding, we say mountains belong to the country.

[24:31]

This is also translated as territory of the nation, or Kaz says belongs to to the nation, so usually we say the mountains, the literal mountains, Tassajara, Los Padres National Forest belongs to the nation, you know, it belongs to, or Monterey County. We have this, but he says, although we say that the mountains belong to the county or the country, actually they belong to those who love them. And I think we feel that way. I certainly feel that way. you know, the more you know a place and have lived there and cared for it, lived throughout the 24 hours of the day and the seasons and love it, you feel like it's ours. I remember saying to Leslie about the horse pasture, which belonged to Bob and Anna Beck. They owned the pines, Tassar and the horse pasture. We bought Tassar and we bought the pines, those acreage.

[25:34]

I felt like the horse pasture was ours. The horse pasture belonged to us. I really felt that way. It's our horse pasture. We go there on walks. We look at the wildflowers there. It was like a figment of someone's imagination that it belonged to. These people who had this document in Monterey County that said they owned it. We own the horse pasture. It was completely clear to me. I remember Leslie looking at me like, you know, they own the horse pasture. And they were trying to sell the horse pasture. How can they sell the horse pasture? It's our horse pasture. And, you know, they did try, and luckily it turned back over to the Los Padres National Forest Drive, so it's under now Forest Protection, which means we own it. We take care of it. We walk it. It's ours. So in some way that's That's true.

[26:35]

So that's literally our Tassara mountain or the environs. We have that feeling. We love it. And I was also thinking of Native Americans with so much of the mountains and waters and plains that they You know, these are our ceremonial grounds. These are our places we love and care for and have for thousands of years. And these are our lands, you know. It's very, you know, there's a lot of pain there. I think we feel that way when we go back to our native, if we grew up somewhere and it's all developed or ruined or someone told me where they live, they now have what used to be continuous lawns that all the kids played in are now all these fences, you know. So I think this is very true how we feel, and also not only literally like that, but the mountains as the reality of the whole life, of our whole life, of the 10,000 things, of our mind and environment.

[27:52]

It belongs, the environment and all things belong to those who care about and love. the reality of all existence and who practice in that way. And then it goes on, when the mountains love their owners, the wise and virtuous enter the mountains. So this owners, this is a character, Shu, which can be owner, it can be lord, it can also be host. Like in Hosting Guest, And Okamori Roshi doesn't really like that translation, doesn't like the word owners. Kaz says, when the mountains love their master. Cleary says, when the mountains definitely love their owners, in quotes. And Nishijima says, they're occupiers. So when the mountains love their masters or their host, the wise and virtuous enter the mountains.

[28:54]

So I think this feeling of the horse pasture is ours, isn't like an ownership as much as a loving relationship and host and guest. And also, what we were talking about the other day of disappearing into the mountains, becoming one with the mountains. So in some way, when the mountains love their host, or when the host becomes the mountains and the mountains love the mountains because the host, we disappear, practitioners disappear into the interdependent reality of all existence and love it and the host within the host, the host loves the host, the master loves the master or mountains love the mountains. So I think we can turn and reflect on it in that way.

[29:58]

also host. Sometimes we talk about the abbot or abbots as being the host and the practitioners, the guest of the monastery or of that mountain. Monasteries are called mountains or temples are called mountains. So the wise and the virtuous, when there's this kind of relationship, there's... wanting to enter, that makes conditions for people to enter. We're drawn to places like that where there's loving, caring, respectful relationship for each and every thing. And this is Okamura Roshi.

[31:00]

Wise and virtuous are inevitably drawn into the mountains where actual mountain lovers live as our teachers. Drawn to the mountains because reality of life loves us. The reality of life loves us. We love the mountains. We love life and life loves us because we are not separate. And when sages and wise people live in the mountains, because the mountains belong to them, trees and rocks flourish and abound, and the birds and beasts take on a supernatural excellence. The supernatural could also be spiritual excellence. I think Okamura Roshi feels spiritual maybe is better. Cleary says the trees and rocks are abundant, the birds and beasts are holy.

[32:02]

This is when sages and wise people live in the mountains and because there's this mutual loving relationship, the trees and rocks flourish and abound and the birds and the beasts take on a supernatural or spiritual or become holy, cause trees and rocks become abundant and birds and animals are inspired. Nishijima, trees and rocks abound and flourish, and birds and animals are mysteriously excellent. They are, aren't they? You know, the canyon rand, who I hear out in the bath, by the way, I think it found a nest. Have you heard it out there? When I go to Abbas Bath at Soji time, I hear the canyon rand, so it must have found a place out that way, a little further away from the hustle and bustle of downtown Tassajara.

[33:05]

And they take on a mysterious excellence, right, in our relationship with all things. So the mountains belong to the people who love them. and then people who love them or feel that loving relationship enter. And then when you live in the mountain, there's some kind of spiritual excellence or this, Okamura brings up self-receiving and self-employing samadhi, which we're not chanting at noon, but he brings up this, the mountains start to radiate a spiritual light. You know that, radiate a great light? So a person who is working, who is in alignment, in attunement with the environment, that that alignment comes back to influence and affect the person who then affects the environment.

[34:16]

And it's this self-receiving and self-employing samadhi, this self-all... your practice influences all those who live with you and speak with you and their relationships influence you and back and forth and back and forth. So it's this, he cites this in this section of sages and wise people live in the mountains because the mountains belong to them. Because why? Because they love them. And then all those things that we come in contact with flourish by our loving care. And then that influences us. And I was reflecting on that, which I'll come to in a minute, but yeah, this working together, this relationship, and I think for us, relationships are just primary.

[35:17]

Relationship, self, intra-psychically, our relationship with ourself our relationship with others, our relationship with the 10,000 things, relationship, relationship, it comes down to that over and over again. And, you know, good and peaceful and alive relationships. Which reminds me of Oksan Suzuki Roshi's wife, who's 99, actually. Her secrets of longevity, I think some of you know this, walk every day, don't hate anything or anyone, and have good conversations. That is the secret of life, according to Oksan, honorable wife, Mitsu Suzuki. So this last thing about these birds and beasts take on a supernatural excellence, they really do.

[36:20]

We were just watching squirrels. as we, Maria and I were walking along on the way to lecture and Squirrel Nutkin, do you know Squirrel Nutkin, some of you? Naomi must know Squirrel Nutkin. Squirrel Nutkin is a, I know Marcia knows Squirrel Nutkin. Squirrel Nutkin is a squirrel in Beatrix Potter. Do you know Beatrix Potter? Peter Rabbit and children's stories, Sejan knows too probably. Anyway, Squirrel Nutkin goes to gather nuts on this island and the island is kind of reined over by this giant owl who sits there glaring and Squirrel Nutkin, in order to get the acorns there, the owl is in an oak tree, brings tribute, you know, a dead mouse, you know, and all sorts of things to the and then there's riddles, riddle-dee-dee, there's all sorts of riddles.

[37:20]

Anyway, we're watching these squirrels and they're just, they're so fun to watch, right? Especially because it's a shiting, it's a sheen. They are doing their squirrel-ness, you know, and their tails and hopping and leaping. They're just radiating supernatural excellence, you know? It's true. What, what? Yeah, yeah. So, and this is happening because sages and wise people have covered them with virtue. Isn't that interesting? It's just like someone was describing to me sitting in the Kaisando and watching a tiny little piece of bark of a tree vibrating in the wind, like this little tiny... event.

[38:20]

And how it is that they even notice this teeny tiny bark vibrating in the kaisando in their view is they were covering it with their virtue, their virtue of peaceful attentiveness, simple life, attuning, not being distracted, all this. So it's this self-receiving and self-employing event. We love it and because we love it, it loves us and it takes on these qualities and because we're covering it in our virtue, you know, it's this because we are one with everything. So this is because the sages and wise people have covered them with virtue. So as our lives become less and less chaotic and confused where we're making big, troublesome experiences for ourself and others, the less that's happening, the more we're coming into alignment with our deepest wish to live in a non-harming way.

[39:43]

The more this happens, the more actually vitally energetic and filled with life we become. And the more we become that way, the more aware we are of our environment and all those we meet and everything we touch. And, you know, one of these architects that we were interviewing when I was up at Green Gulch for the Cloud Hall renovation described one of the reasons he became an architect. Did I tell you this? We interviewed four architectural terms firms to do the Cloud Hall renovation and one of these people was a contractor at first and he came and visited Tassajara and he saw the care with which this environment had been made, you know, the rocks, the drywall in particular and the way the kitchen had been constructed and everywhere he looked there was attention and care and love and he decided he wanted to be an architect and

[40:46]

work in that way. So the environment itself is covered with virtue and then it gives back, you know, this giving and receiving. So the more we live in alignment, the more virtue, the more we can be our best and affect everything in a careful, considered way and the more the environment flourishes. I was thinking about Page Street, you know, when I first came there in 71, Soji, and it still happens today, we would go out on the street and sweep, right? Don't we do Soji on the street? Our section, you know, and at that time, there was a huge apartment house, like five stories high, where Koshland Park is now, there was this big apartment, and lots of difficulties there burned to the ground, actually. and the neighborhood was not so well cared for, and we would do our sweeping.

[41:47]

And eventually, after the apartment burned down, we helped to establish Kaushland Park. We got the funding for Kaushland Park, and then we'd go up there and pick up trash. This is sages and wise people entering the mountains and covering it with virtue and caring, and then the environment flourishes. the Neighborhood Foundation, when we established that Neighborhood Foundation to help the neighborhood. And same with Green Gulch. The Green Gulch, the way we farm at Green Gulch, we're committed to farm in such a way that's healthy for the soil, the creek that's right there, and the ocean, and the animals. That's our vow. And same with Tasajara. They test the water downstream and it had no pollutants in it. After everything, all these people living here for years, and our stream is clean, except for the Giardia.

[42:53]

We can't drink it, but we're not adding. So this is our environments that, not just in these Temple Mountains, but everywhere you live, become more and more with our practice mind. We love, we love the mountain, we love our life and the 10,000 things and in that love we care for it and it flourishes and back and forth. So, this, the mountain, it doesn't really matter How many people, it doesn't depend on how many people are here, or it's a big practice period or a small practice period, as long as people are sincerely practicing. And Dogen brings that up under the director's advice for the director.

[43:54]

You know, leading a large assembly of monks and being outside the way is completely wrong. If there's ten monks in the assembly that are practicing sincerely, you know, that's fine. Or as small as Fen Yang's assembly was as small as seven or eight monks. Just see the Buddha's ancestors together with great awakening. It's not limited by size. It doesn't matter about size. And, you know, this can sometimes, you know, oh, the practice period is too, you know, it's too little. That is not the issue here. The issue is sincere practice. That's when the practice place becomes a great mountain where wise people and sages want to enter if there's sincere practice. We should realize that the mountains actually take delight in wise people, actually take delight in sages.

[44:58]

The mountains, you know, the reality of all being this interconnected brocade takes delight, takes delight in the threads. I don't know exactly even, it's just, in another translation it said, that's a fact. The mountains love the practitioners and practitioners love the mountains. That's a fact. So those who love the mountains are themselves the mountains, The mountains love the mountains. Throughout the ages, we have excellent examples of emperors who have gone to the mountains to pay homage to wise men, wise people, and seek instruction from great sages. At such times, the emperors respected the sages as teachers and honored them without standing on worldly forms.

[46:02]

You know, this is taking this example of emperors. The emperor in Chinese times was, I think we don't even have an idea of how much power they had. It was, you know, cut off their head. It's just like when those of us who visited China and gone to Tiananmen Square and, you know, the emperor's, the hidden city, right? The hidden city, is that what it's called? Forbidden, forbidden city. No building could be higher than the emperor's. Everything had to be lower. Not only everybody kowtowing or bowing, but your house, everything. So to use the emperor as an example, and there's lots of, like Bodhidharma, and the emperor, I think, is also another example of this kind of thing. The emperor doesn't stand on worldly forms for him to say what Bodhidharma said, you know. no merit, right? Well, it's a very similar story that is in here.

[47:05]

So throughout Chinese classics, there's, at least in the legendary tales, there are these stories about Chinese emperors going into the mountains. And they don't stand on worldly forms, you know. Things in terms of meeting a wise person sage, you drop the conventional and meet in a different way, even though you have ultimate power. And it reminded me of when Jordan and I went to Boston to the memorial service for one of our donors and an old friend of Suzuki Roshi's who started the Cambridge Buddhist Association, whose name is... Elsie Mitchell, thank you, we went to her funeral, and she comes from an old, old Boston family, very, the aristocratic kind of, and also often aristocratic and bohemian go together.

[48:18]

She went off and studied Zen, went to a monastery, you know, and actually did that folkways. recording of A.H.E. from the 50s. She did that, L.C. Mitchell. Anyway, she was a Buddhist. And so when Jordan and I went to the funeral, it was in this very established memorial chapel in this big funeral, in a big cemetery with people... of this particular family, you know, we're all there, and talking about things that I have no experience of. But we, you know, I realized we were clergy, you know, we were wearing rock suits, and I realized there's no comparison really. There's no, we didn't compete or compare in any way our life experience, whether we went to those

[49:19]

schools or traveled or whatever the conversation is, we're in another realm. It's outside of that realm. You don't stand on worldly forms. You enter as a practitioner and you drop that. And it really felt that way rather than feeling uncomfortable. You just stand in the Dharma position of practitioner and you can meet anyone in any form, any state. for the imperial authority has no authority over the mountain sage, and the emperors knew that the mountains are beyond the mundane world. So, you know, there's a danger here, and I think we're cautioned to not get involved in fame and gain and politics, because it's very, one can get caught up in that world and lose one's way, I think. But I think

[50:20]

In this case, he's not necessarily talking about politics or imperial authority as much as, just like in Ehe Koso, where it says, I vow with all beings from this life on through the outcome, to hear the true Dharma, that upon hearing it, no doubt will arise in us, nor will it... We shall renounce worldly affairs and maintain the Buddha Dharma. We're talking about worldly affairs here, kind of renouncing worldly affairs and maintaining Buddha Dharma. And so within the Buddha Dharma, the worldly affairs really don't have authority over your lotus and muddy water. You're not caught. You're in it, but not of it. So... Yeah, not being caught by the conventional things.

[51:22]

So here's the story that they're referring to, and this comes from an old Taoist text. In ancient times we have the cases of, these are two different stories, Kongtong, which I think is kind of, doesn't it remind you of King Kong or something every time we read it, Kongtong and the Hua Guard. When the Yellow Emperor made his visit, he went on his knees and prostrated himself and begged instructions. So this story of the Kongtong is the name of the mountain, and it's near Chang'an, which I think is Xi'an now. I think so. And the Yellow Emperor is a legendary emperor that lived in 2,852. B.C., so this is way, way back, legendary Taoist text, the Yellow Emperor. And this Yellow Emperor, which reminded me of Bodhidharma, was supposed to have invented Chinese characters, the calendar, music, Chinese music, and medicine.

[52:32]

So this is a great man, right, this Yellow Emperor, to have invented music. So this very... accomplished emperor shows up in Chapter 11 of this particular text, Taoist text called Leaving the World Open. And Dogen probably, you know, he was very well read, probably had read all these ancient Chinese classics. So this is the story. At the time of the story, this emperor had been on the throne for about 19 years. One day, when he heard that this particular hermit named Guang Sheng-chi was living in the Kongtong Mountains, he went to see him to ask about the essence of the perfect Tao and the secret of immortality. And Guang Sheng-chi, the hermit, refused to teach him, saying, how can I discuss perfect Tao with a narrow-minded man like you?

[53:38]

You know, it was like, This is how the hermit spoke with him. And upon hearing this, the emperor gave up his throne and lived by himself in a grass hut for three months. He made a practice period for himself. And then he revisited the mountain hermit. Guangxi was lying on the bed with his head facing south in a humble his head facing south which in the emperor's forms usually the retainers the solicitors or whatever faced the north and the emperor faced the south when they would he'd be in the emperor would be in the north looking south and the retainers and so here's

[54:42]

The hermit was lying on the bed with his head facing the south. In a humble manner, the yellow emperor crept toward him and bowed twice before he asked the same question about the perfect Tao and the secret of immortality. Then the hermit began to talk about the Tao. So the yellow emperor behaved just like one of the retainers treating the hermit as the emperor. So he did not hold to those forms. He let go of worldly forms, humbled himself to ask for guidance. So this is, in the ancient times, we have the cases of the Kuang and the Hua Guard. The Hua Guard was another chapter in this book where the emperor has an interview with the Hua Guard, but they didn't tell the story, but probably in a similar way where they dropped worldly forms.

[55:56]

So he made his visit. He went on his knees, prostrated himself, and begged for instruction. Again, the Buddha Shakyamuni left his royal father's palace, went into the mountains, Yet his royal father felt no resentment toward the mountains nor distrust of those in the mountains who instructed the prince. So this is, of course, talking about the story of Shakyamuni leaving his home. And you probably know this, but I'll just say it. There's many different versions of his leaving home story. One is where he leaves his father and mother. He leaves his father and mother and goes off. But one of the story that, one of the versions, is that he is married, but they don't have children.

[57:02]

And yes, Sildara has this terrible dream. She has a nightmare in the middle of the night. I think that her teeth are falling out and various things, and they talk about it in the nighttime, and he kind of comforts her, and then they make love, and she conceives that night. So there's this parallel thing where she conceives, and he leaves and goes off, and they both have their quest, her gestation and pregnancy and giving birth and his austerities. and his enlightenment, which he gives birth the night that he wakes up under the Bodhi tree. This is a whole other version. And then the version that we know of was probably picked up by Western Buddhologists and told and retold and became really the standard story. But Dogen is talking about the Buddha leaving his father, his royal father's palace.

[58:04]

or it may be the regular story that we're so used to, but he's just citing his father rather than his wife and child. But anyway, I'm not sure which exact version he's talking about. At any rate, he leaves the palace and the father has no resentment towards the mountains, no distrust of those practitioners who instructed the prince. And The prince's 12 years of cultivating the way were largely spent in the mountains. It was on the mountains that the Dharma king's auspicious event occurred, that he woke up. So this is, you know, we say in Phukhansa Sengi, his six years of upright sitting is celebrated to this day, or six years, right? And nine years for Bodhidharma. But this says 12 years, so there's a tradition. The Pali tradition is six years where he leaves the palace at 29 and is enlightened when he's 35.

[59:11]

There's another tradition, Mahayana tradition and Zen tradition where he leaves the palace at 19 and is enlightened at what age? 30. Is that 12 years? Whatever the math is. Anyway, so there's these different traditions, these different traditions. So this one is the 12 years cultivating the way. We're largely spent in the mountains. And there's this particular mountain, which I wasn't aware of. Let's see, what's the name of the mountain? The mountain is Dantaloka. And Mount Dantaloka supposedly, there may be a kind of conflation of a story when the Buddha, a past life story when the Buddha was bodhisattva and practice on this particular mountain, Mount Dantaloka, and anyway, conflating these two stories.

[60:13]

At any rate, the mountain, I think, can be used as the name given for a practice place or temple or real mountain. And Bodhgaya, is that where the Buddha woke up under the Bodhi tree, Bodhgaya, is my understanding is it's not a mountainous place. Those of you who've been there, I think it's flat, yeah, quite flat. Yeah, so when they say mountain, I think it's more figurative, this mountain that he, it was on the mountains that the Dharma king's auspicious event occurred. Truly, even a wheel-turning king does not wield authority over the mountains. So this wheel-turning king is a Chakravartan king, and Chakravartan chakra is wheel, and Chakravartan king is a king that's been given power by the devas to rule, and there's these four wheels that the devas gave the Chakravartan king that helped to rule.

[61:21]

So the usual reference, though, is this Chakravartan, this wheel-turning king. The commentary means Shakyamuni's father. So truly, even a will-turning king does not wield authority over the mountains. We should understand that the mountains are not within the limits of the human realm or the limits of the heavens above. They are not to be viewed with the calculations of human thought. If only we did not compare them with flowing in the human realm, Who would have any doubts about such things as the mountains flowing or not flowing? So this paragraph here, and I think this is the last one of the section, is our tendency to view, to take our worldly ways,

[62:27]

the usual way we have of approaching things and kind of apply it to our spiritual practice, like Trogyelman's book, Spiritual Materialism, where the way, our usual way of strategizing, having designs on things, we tend to apply that to our spiritual practice, which will not... yield to it. We can't wield authority over our spiritual practice in that way. It doesn't lend itself to that. It's not. You can't gauge our practice life with those good and bad and, you know, even progress and not progress. We can't get a foothold there in the way that we do with our usual conventional way. What is progress? What isn't progress? You know, One continuous mistake is the way of the Buddhas and ancestors.

[63:38]

That doesn't quite fit with getting a job and writing a resume and writing out all our mistakes. They're not going to hire me. Our tendency is to try and do that with our spiritual life. We should understand that the mountains and reality and our spiritual practice life within the limits of our human realm, or the limits of any kind of karmic realm, we can't view it with those kinds of calculations of our human thought. And if we drop that, if we drop that kind of comparing mind and trying to, you know, then he says... Who would have any doubts about such things as the mountains flowing or not flowing? Our evaluating and measuring and having our points of reference that we're trying to measure things with, which are our karmic life, you can't measure true reality in that way.

[64:49]

You can't get at it that way. We have to let go of that. or get tired of it. And I hear people say, they come to me and say, I am so tired of doing my thing that I always do. I see it, I understand, here I go again, and yet I can't. But I'm tired of it, you know. I think we feel that way. We see it, and we keep going over the same. But I think even that tiredness is the beginnings of letting go. We can't put energy into it anymore, and we can't go back to when we didn't even notice we were doing it. We've gone too far. We can't go back. So now we can't be oblivious to it and unconscious of it, but we keep starting doing it, but we can't put energy. Now what? This is a bad situation.

[65:50]

This is... You know, it's actually a good situation. So sometimes we find that we're very attached to the rules. You know, she was talking about all these different rules of tassar and we depend on them and why aren't they... Why are things happening the way they used to happen? And yet things are not going to be that way. They can't continue in that way. We can't maintain things exactly. They're changing, and we have to change too, because we are the 10,000 things. And if we hold to some old way, and why aren't they doing it, we will suffer, you know, and we will... Like Suzuki Roshi keeps saying, we won't have any friends, you know?

[67:00]

In this other place, you've probably read it, he says, you won't be alive anymore. Look in the mirror. Are you alive or not? So not to be caught by some rigid understanding and that things are not always going to be the way we gauge them to be. And then these doubts about such things as mountains flowing or not flowing, you know, what would happen then? So we finished that section. And tomorrow we're going to talk about living by the water. And I know if I ask for questions, but I will ask for questions.

[68:11]

We'll go on. So please take a comfortable position. And let's take maybe a few questions. If there are any, yes. When you were talking about sweeping, I remember Maria Kristoff saying at Burning Man, they have a term, moop. Matter out of place. Matter out of place. I picked something up, I just said, oh, moop. Wonderful. Yeah, matter out of place. It reminds me of putting pots in the right place. Yes. Yes. Edgy. Fun, fun. Matter out of place. On the other end of the spectrum of healing, as you were talking about the sages and wise men and the emperors keep taking China.

[69:14]

What's that? What's happened to that It was such a deep understanding in this culture. And yes, there are still hermits, but I don't know if emperors still go to hermits the way they did. Yeah. The suffering that that country has gone through in the millennia, you know, I don't know Chinese history that well, but the wars and wars and wars and a and suffering of the people, you know, and those conditions gave rise to these various changes, and there will be more changes, you know, I mean, it's changing. Yeah, but I don't, you know, it's, I don't know if the truth of these teachings can't actually, I think they go, can they be destroyed?

[70:17]

I think they come, they re- they come up again, you know. Yeah. Is this something like what's meant by, you know, echo, we say, this declining age? Yeah. In ISC. Yeah. Well, the... Yeah, the declining age, you know, it's a kind of technical term about the last 500 years, the time of the collapse of the good dharma. There will be those who, you know, the... So it's, there'll be a flourishing, you know, just like anything. There'll be a rising up and a flourishing and then a decline. And I think, Dogen, you know, if we here in this declining age, if we feel depressed because there's nobody here who will ever understand and we're just mouthing, we're just dreg slurping and that's what we're left with, it's kind of discouraging, you know.

[71:18]

We can keep keep going through the motions. But if it's encouraging, like this is a difficult time to practice and we will take it up with full energy and enter the mountains, then yay, you know, yay team. And there's also this connection with decline connected with women's ordination that is a pretty discouraging, you know, connection in the history. I just like to think of declining age as it is challenging to practice in any age, and this age as well. That's how I like to think of it. But in the Diamond Sutra, you know, and the Lotus Sutra, too, they're talking to us, really. They're talking... I mean, I don't know if they're imagining 2012, but they're talking, they were written long ago and they're saying at the time of the collapse of the good dharma, when there are few people who understand, you know, read and recite and convey this.

[72:27]

And I always feel like, oh, you're talking to me, you know. Yeah. What? The mountains belong to those who love the mountains, and it's wonderful to come here from the city to the mountains and feel the care that people have for this place. It goes on and on, and I felt very welcome. But I also feel that the city belongs to those who love the city. And when we were getting ready for the mountain seat ceremony at City Center, painting and cleaning and planting flowers on the front of the building. And there's this sense of what you described as feeling like the host, people who were coming to that ceremony.

[73:31]

But now the building still radiates that glow. being cared for. And so I don't know that it matters whether it's the mountains or the city or wherever you are. If you truly love that place, it gives back so much. It's like what Erin was saying about the altar giving us so much. Yeah, exactly. I think, you know, it was a mountain seat ceremony and it took place at City Center, which is that mountain. And Mountains, wherever we love, whatever we love, is the mountain. That glow, you really felt it when you came to the city that day. You feel it always. You walk into that lobby. I remember Eson used to buff the linoleum, the red linoleum. That was one of his ... He loved doing it.

[74:31]

It would shine. I think people still do buff and wax, yes? Yeah. [...] So, and things come alive, have a glow or a spiritual excellence. An altar that is cared for is an alive altar. And there is a difference between an altar that isn't tended and related to and cared for and loved. And there's the same with a child or a friend. It's not just inanimate objects we're talking about here. It's everything we, everything. So exactly, you're right. The mountains is not literal mountain mountains. It's each place is mountains. And it also converts people, I want to say.

[75:38]

People walk into Page Street and they feel, oh, this place is cared for. This place. There are people here who are alive to life. You feel that, right? May it be so. May it be so. Yeah. And then when you walk into your rooms, after room cleaning, that's what room cleaning is about, actually. So your room will be alive and peaceful. And then on your day off, on your personal day, you can totally relax in this alive space that's been buffed and waste paper baskets emptied and fresh flowers and aired out. dusted and straightened. It's alive and you can have somebody over for tea.

[76:39]

Right? We actually used to do room checks in the olden days. Was there another? Yes. It seems to me that these paragraphs talk about I mean, it is like a perfect description of sacred. Sacred. Is the word that comes to mind. And when you... They take on the birds and the animals. Take on a sacred character. It's a word that I... And I wanted to sort of... Ask how you... Because at the same time, we do have this... sacredness here, but we also say that there's nothing special. Yeah.

[77:40]

And it's an interesting, to me, an interesting juxtaposition, because it is special, but it's not. So I just want to hear what you had. Yeah. Well, when you said about the animals that take on, you know, and it's sacred, that sacredness covers the entire earth. There's nothing outside of that sacredness. Every morsel, you know, what is that saying? There's not a spot of earth to spit on. There's no place that isn't sacred in that way. Every piece of trash actually is the entire universe. That's trash? Somebody threw that away? That's the entire universe. It needs to moop. right? So when it's special in that way, when it's sacred in that way, it's not special, it's just the way things are. And if we're in alignment with it, we don't put it up or, but those who live outside the mountains, you know, who, you know, gaze upon it like that, or those who live outside, that practice, you know, might say, oh, they're doing something special.

[78:57]

But it's, in that way, it's not extraordinary. It's the way you treat each and everything according to how it is, that it's Buddha Dharma. It's not a piece of trash, it's Buddha Dharma. And when you live in that way, there's nothing outside of your experience that can be treated any other way. What could that be, that you would treat with disrespect or give it short shrift, whatever that means? And also everything internally. Every thought, every emotion, every feeling, every sensation, every trial and tribulation is sacred in that way. Maria? I was going to say I appreciate what you just said about sacredness. I actually kind of felt a little bit of an ouch with the dregs sloping.

[79:58]

I'm just like... I mean, someone has to eat that, right? Like the carts. In some cultures, it's very treasured fish. It's a gift to chocolate food. And then, you know, some of our drug supporters. Yes, yes. I just appreciate. Yeah. You're saying the sacredness of all things. Yeah. And it just reminds me, especially, you know, everything has its place. Yeah. Yeah. I think in the Tenzo Kilken, high and low is basically just according to what it needs. It's not hierarchically high or low. It's just this needs to be up off the ground. This big pail needs to be down on the ground. That's all. The dreg slurpers, you know, him saying that, Wang Bo saying, you people are all dreg slurpers. If you go on like this, where will you have today? That is not using that kind of language is, you know,

[81:02]

is Avalokiteshvara taking the fierce, you know, the 11-headed one has this fierce one on the back of the head of Avalokiteshvara, the beautiful, nice, but the back has, you know, the back has this scary, fierce kuan yin. So Wang Bo took that aspect to say, because he loved them, you know, where are you going to lose today? Don't you know? So It comes out of that. It's not out of hate or anger or kind of poison speech. It was his way of, you know, wake up, wake up, you know, like that. And in the Chinese, in the koans, there's often pretty raw, kind of rough language sometimes, you know. It's very idiomatic and colloquial, you know. It's not such refined speech sometimes. But it's only written down because it comes out of compassion.

[82:07]

If it was out of just nastiness, we have enough of that. Who's going to bother to write that down? So the dreg slippers, if you can hear it as, I love you, I love you, I love you, you know, like that. I'd just like to add that I think it was just sort of the state of mind and heart that I was at But just maybe yesterday, it created an ouch for me. And yet, I can certainly see sort of around and beyond that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, I remember there was a teacher who will remain nameless who called us all turkeys in a lecture or something. And I think there was a lot of ouches there, even though I believe it was out of compassion, I think, you know. Yeah, turkeys. Exactly, yeah.

[83:12]

Right. It's language. It's language connotation and... Yeah, and, you know, you see animals. I mean, Dogen does it too. Doesn't he call people dogs and stuff? You know, it's like... So, anyway, yeah, there are some outches there. Thank you. Marcia. I just wanted to share a story, and hearing you talk now, it all makes sense. I once went to visit Yvonne Rand at the temple that she had at Green Gulch. You mean in Muir Beach? Goat in the road, yeah. And at the back where she would sit, she sat in front of a huge scientific drawing of a mosquito. And I never really could understand why. And now it all makes sense.

[84:15]

And please let us in on it. Well, you're talking about what could you possibly... degrade or despise. What could you imagine that you would just go, that isn't part of this glorious earth, this universe. And a mosquito, a large giant, larger than like giant mosquito, that for me, that's what I take from the story. She wanted this to be right, not a beautiful rendition of the Buddha, but the mosquito. Yeah. Very interesting. You know, when you said it, the way I understood it as, although only a mosquito biting an iron bull, which the Chusot says in their ceremony, you know, I cannot give it away. The staff of, so, you know, there's that reference too. Yeah. But I'm, speaking of Yvonne Rand. I wanted to tell you all this. Someone told me that at the Oakland Museum, there's a big exhibition right now of the 60s, and certain people were invited to contribute something.

[85:23]

The person who told me just happened to go to the exhibit, the show, and Yvonne Rand was in there, and what she is exhibiting is the yucca frond that Suzuki Roshi used to do nyorai on the covers of the Zen Man Beginner's Blood. that character, and he used a yucca, and she's got it, I guess. And Suzuki Hiroshi's book was there, the front, what else was there? A few other artifacts, you know, is on display now at the Oakland Museum for the, to, as an exemplar of the 60s. That was, so I have been wanting to tell you, so thank you for bringing up Yvonne. Yes, Greg? When we got to the part about peace, I just want to bring into the room the wise teachers who let them out.

[86:28]

I really miss the raccoons. I think they taught us a lot. Their presence, their way we ourselves. Yeah. Anyway, onto the raccoons, their truculence, their ruthlessness. They taught us a lot. But if they ever come back, it's not because I reintroduced them. Right now, I would never. Yes. And they left with the fire? Did they leave with the fire? Yeah. Yeah. When I first moved to, not first, but second moved to Green Gulch in the 90s, there was many, many, many raccoons, so much so that actually Yvonne ran. She was walking to Zazen, one grabbed her ankle on the way to the Zendo.

[87:32]

You can imagine. But they got distempered. The Green Gulch ones, there was like an epidemic of distemper. The population really hasn't come back to that extent. They were, yeah. Anyway, thank you for bringing up our companions. The last few remarks have brought an interesting thought. I inquired of someone about the weather and other things at a certain part of Canada, Alberta, heading towards the tar sands. And she said the weather will be lovely in July. And then she mentioned mosquitoes and black flies. There will be your teachers will accompany you.

[88:37]

I am familiar with them. I used to, in Minnesota, used to like to let the mosquitoes land, and then I'd watch them fill up their bellies, and they'd be this bright cherry red. And then I'd let them drink as much as they wanted. I've never told anybody this, but anyway. And then when they took out their proboscis, what's it called? They were so heavy, they could barely fly away. They'd kind of lift off and go, and kind of lumber back to wherever their children were, I guess. That was one of my childhood activities, I guess. Anyway, yes, mosquitoes and flies. I learned about flies during Tongario, really, yeah. I'm ready to end. How about you all? Shall we? Okay, thank you. Oh. Yes. Speaking of different views and how he made things, he actually wanted the natural bird to be a turkey.

[89:54]

And I can't remember what he thought he would purchase a turkey, but he obviously thought it superseded. Yeah, wild turkeys. There's a whole flock of wild turkeys that arrived at Green Gulch one day. I mean, maybe more than once they've done that, but it was quite the event. They were there in that location for, like, a whole afternoon and evening or something. You know, they were just kind of... Okay, thank you very much. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[90:55]

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