This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. This is our last day of the Sashin and the last talk for the practice period, really. And hopefully we'll finish the Mountains and Waters Sutra. There were a few things I wanted to mention before we get back to the text, although some of the things I want to say flow from the text, so we never really ever again can leave it. Actually. So I wanted to... There's a few areas I wanted to...

[01:00]

get back to. And then I also wanted to tell the story that Michael told me yesterday, which maybe we can tell it together. And then Buddha's birthday will be tomorrow. We'll be celebrating Buddha's birthday. So I wanted to say a few words about Buddha's birthday. And then try to finish the sutra. Also, I've received some merit badges and I got a heat and light one, and I saw the Namuke Butsu one, the sewing badge. And then there was the Dharma Talk mirror badge that I got yesterday, which was a golden fish that Tova gave me. So it's very exciting to get all these badges. Yes? May I say? Yes. Oh, aren't we having the ceremony tomorrow?

[02:05]

Well, yeah, we're going to have a ceremony tomorrow morning, but on a personal day, I just want to say to the community, I'm going to make merit badges. And I'm going to set up, like, with some car stock, so that merit badges would be the same size. Thank you. With the same art materials that we're making be scrollable. So anyone who's already painted on the scrolls, Okay, well thank you. Okay. We have some, I heard we have some Eagle Scouts in the assembly too, some Boy Scouts. So... So... I've been thinking about the sutra, and it came to me that it's like an opera or something.

[03:06]

There's themes and reverberations of other works. And just like any art, it doesn't come fully formed without the context that it grew in. And so it's always relating and reverberating and resonating. I remember going to the opera, San Francisco Opera, to the pre-talk before the opera, and the woman was speaking about these kind of musical jokes that were in it. And then she played these parts where he's, you know, not knowing the music that well. but he did a little something that referred to something but changed it, and so it was kind of this musical joke. And it all went over my head, you know, but for somebody who knows music well, they get it and hear it and appreciate it. So same with this fascicle, you know, yesterday I felt with this small paragraph that we worked on, talked about all these reverberations that went in all directions,

[04:08]

And I'm continuing to feel this in these last couple paragraphs as well. So this kind of old business that I wanted to bring up in one of these Suzuki Roshi lectures, he's talking about Sansui-kyo and he says, you know, Dogenzenji says, even though you say water is water, it is not quite right. He has that as a quote. So I don't think it's actually a quote, but it's not quite right. Most people think water should be water, and that is the right understanding of water. It cannot be anything else. Water is something to drink, not to live in it, or it cannot be fire. But Dogen, he says that's not quite right. Doesn't say it's wrong, but he says not quite right. And this is going back to, which I think has really become part of the practice period, people You know, I've been saying, you know, I see it as a jeweled necklace, but they see it as, you know, it's become something people are aware of.

[05:11]

And yesterday, when we were talking about not fishing, you know, the giving people lots of space to jump on the hook if they want to or find their way, and how relieving it was for a lot of people But I wanted to say that that's not quite right. That is, you know, Dogen's been saying about the human realm and not to stick to the human realm. And I felt afterwards this discomfort and I realized what I was saying and what maybe a lot of people would agree with really comes from my own karmic consciousness where I feel like I'm, at least in this age and time, I'm feel pretty confident I'm welcome to go anywhere. If I want to join someplace or attend something or walk in a door to a program, it doesn't even occur to me that I may not be welcome there.

[06:14]

But that is not quite right for every dragon and every fish and every human being. Someone else may step in the door with the thought, am I welcome or not? Do they want me here? Am I included? Is it okay? And if we're giving lots of space for people to jump on the hook, for some dragons, they may feel that's great, and another dragon reads that as, I'm not welcome. And so our welcome, I feel like we really can't stick to, this is zen, this is how we do it, this is the only way, because of... all the beings who have different karmic consciousness. So I felt very stuck to this. We don't, you know, it's their problem if they don't feel welcome. We don't welcome anybody. Everybody is welcome. But I think that's too stuck. It's not quite right. And I just wanted to come back to that.

[07:19]

I think it's an important issue to be able to pull out what's Zen, you know, and what's our karmic consciousness expression of Zen. So that was yesterday's old business. The other thing I'd wanted to mention was in, that was the day before, the mountains belong to those, the people who love them. And I was reminded of a, not a Jataka tale, it's a tale of when Shakyamuni Buddha Gautama was young and his, you probably know the story, his cousin, I think maybe even Devadatta, shot down a dove. He was hunting and shot this bird and the bird fell to the earth and Devadatta was looking for it, but the little Shakyamuni found it first and took the arrow out and cared for the bird.

[08:21]

And then when his cousin said, hey, that's my bird, I shot it, that's my quarry, you know, and the Gautama said, no, that's mine. I found and took care of it and loved it. It belongs to me. So they went to probably his dad, Suddhodana, and there was a kind of arbitration there, and the bird was given to little Shakyamuni. for this very reason. It's like compassion trumps your hunting skills. So it was similar. The mountains belong to those who love them, and this doesn't always play out, but we feel that if you're gonna ruin this mountain or this valley with various activities, it doesn't belong to you to ruin it. we have to mourn the fact that there are other conventional laws and property rights, et cetera, et cetera, that so this is a mourning and a grieving we have to do, we have to be aware of.

[09:33]

Okay, so Michael's story. So Michael talked with me yesterday about his story has many reverberations, this kind of that we feel intimacy by practicing together. And I think it was yesterday morning, right? Day before yesterday. Do you want to tell, you were walking up at... Just in seeing this person's foot, I knew that they weren't of the angle. This is a stranger. It turned out to be a guy who came into the view.

[10:38]

It's really fascinating to bring up welcoming a stranger. rose up in me and set himself up for kids. This is a person, he didn't look like a hiker, he didn't have a backpack. He was actually at flip-flops. He took the right hand turn and headed down toward a backpack. And I found out this, well, you know, this person may need something, he may need help, he's here, maybe not supposed to be here, but how would I welcome this person? Yeah, I'll pick up the surf and then you can join. So Michael, you know, greeted him and all, and it turns out he, it was with his wife, I think, or? His wife was back in the car. And he, well, you can tell he told Michael that he came here because...

[11:41]

we do, we like to go into the wilderness, and he says, I really love rivers and water. I love sitting by the water, washing with water. I just really love rivers. He's done like three more sentences that were just made out of this. So this fish just sort of comes out of the mountains and leaps onto the hook to be by water and sit by water. Yeah. Sit by water for two days at a time and just look at the water. Yeah. And then later on, he was a very nice guy. He was very apologetic about breaking the silence, the silent period. And he said, if you guys practice in silence, does that mean you practice nonverbal communication?

[12:55]

Yeah. Sit by the river. So we have these beings who have been drawn down to the mountain to sit by the river. I just thought that was... I mean, we've had hikers come through, but for someone to say, I want to sit by the river and look, that's what I want to do. That's why I'm here. Yeah. Okay. Four in the afternoon. Four in the afternoon. Yeah. Yeah. So the last kind of old business, not exactly old business, this is...

[13:57]

Dogen's poem about Dishang and that whole story yesterday, which was just yesterday. I felt it was too much to do it, but I'm going to read it. Who cast out a thousand-foot line? He followed and chased the waves for whatever remained. A length was offered, but how could it be measured? Both curved and straight hooks were used. A crescent moon unhidden by clouds. The dragon palace is luminous. The old bow floating on the water. The Yang house is in shadows. Clearly observe the mind that hooked the golden-scaled fish. Waves calm, wind quiet. Speech is at rest. This Yang house, that's Yi with his archer's skill, could hit a target at 100 paces, is from the house of Yang. So this old... bow, you know, like bow and arrow floating on the waters and shadows, kind of like the fishing poles are broken, that feeling.

[15:03]

Anyway, waves come, wind quiet, speech is at rest. Okay, so here we go for these last paragraphs. Oh, Buddha's birthday, thank you, thank you. So many of you know that, is anybody not familiar with Buddha's birthday story? story of Buddha's birthday. Everybody's familiar with Buddha's birthday. Not so familiar? Yeah. Just briefly, Queen Maya, Buddha's mother, had a dream of a six, a white elephant, a six-tusked white elephant that entered her side in the dream and that was kind of her dream of conception, actually. She was pregnant with this child and just briefly, she left her husband's palace to go back to have the birth at her own home and it was a kind of walk to get there and on the way she went into labor and had the child at, Buddha was born in Kushinagara, right?

[16:24]

Excuse me, Kapilavastu. How do we chant it? Buddha was born in Kapilavastu. I think the Lumbini gardens are in Kapilavastu, maybe? Anyway, these gardens with trees and she gave birth standing up, holding onto a tree. The tree, you know, Buddha was born with this tree, enlightened under a tree and died between the two solid trees. So trees are, sat under trees. So she gave birth standing up and he came out of her side rather than the usual gait. And there were all sorts of wonderful signs. Warm and cool water flowed from the sky to wash him, the baby. And the baby stood upright, right away. And one hand pointed to the heaven and the earth and and took seven steps and said, I alone am the world honored one.

[17:28]

I think they do. I think they do, actually. I alone, I alone, alone am the world honored one. So this is kind of a koan. And flowers came down from the sky, and beautiful music, and everything was peaceful, all was calm, all was mild. And then seven days later, Queen Maya died, and that's when her sister, Mapa Japati, who had also given birth, and was a nursing mother, actually took the Buddha and foster mothered him, as well as being his aunt. So for the ceremony, we do have a baby Buddha that we, because these waters, cool and warm water came out of the sky, we get to wash the baby Buddha with sweet tea, and there's flowers that are on the pagoda where the Buddha is that shows the flowers that fell, and it's,

[18:43]

springtime and flowery feeling and Sashin is over and will chant and circumambulate and have a grand old time right here in this inconceivable place. So there's more things about the Buddha's birth but there are lots of auspicious signs and He was either going to be a chakravartan king, a wheel-rolling king, or a teacher, a great teacher. That's what the kind of soothsayers saw, the people who kind of could see. Okay, so here we go for the last paragraphs. It is not the case simply that there is water in the world. within the world of water, there is a world. So this is playing with the meaning of the word water here.

[19:46]

And water, as we've seen, water is another word for the reality of all existence, interconnected reality. So he's saying it's not the case simply that there is water in the world, which is our usual thought. We've got water and it's a glass of water or a stream in the world. He turns it to within the world of water, within the whole interconnected universe. There is a world in there. Within there is what we conceive of as world. So it's this flipping. And this is true not only within water, Within clouds as well, there is a world of sentient beings. Within wind, there is a world of sentient beings. Within fire, there is a world of sentient beings. Within earth, there is a world of sentient beings. Within the Dharma realm, there is a world of sentient beings.

[20:50]

Within a single blade of grass, there is a world of sentient beings. Within a single staff, there is a world of sentient beings. So this world of sentient beings is... this, the entire world, the entire universe in the ten directions is this world of sentient beings and this, you know, within a blade of grass or within a drop of water, this echoes Genjo Koan, of course, you know, within a dew drop or within a drop of water, whole worlds are there, right? And Naomi was telling me about doing her scientific research with, what is it again? Plankton. Plankton and the worlds upon worlds that you can see as the microscopes get more and more and more powerful. And there's whole departments who work with microscopes of a certain strength and then there's the ones that go deeper and deeper.

[21:51]

And she has pictures of these beings, these sentient beings that live in this water that that are incredible. In fact, she's going to do stuffed animals in the shape of these beings, right? Or you're thinking about it. So, and, you know, Dogen speaks this way from not having electron microscope, you know? He speaks this way from understanding and through practice realization the In each grain of sand there is a world. Each thing interpenetrates every other thing. Huayin teaching, Avatamsaka Sutra teaching. And so each part of the universe is connected and includes every other part, you know, this empty of own being and full of every other being.

[22:55]

And we can, you know, that way, you know, reflecting and investigating, practicing how it is that each thing opens up into everything else and interpenetrates and doesn't hinder. So in this litany, in the good sense of the word litany, he mentions all the elements, you know, and, you clouds, and in the Dharma realm, there's a world of ascension beings. And then this single blade of grass, let's see, single blade of grass refers to working in the world in our daily lives. So within a single blade of grass, there's a... This is like the opera, you know, there's that koan. Buddha was walking and he picked up a piece of grass and said, right here I make my, you know, spiritual... What?

[24:06]

Sanctuary. Right here. You know, he pulls a piece of grass, right here is the sanctuary. So this blade of grass is our working in the world or... daily life activity, single blade of grass. A single staff, within a single staff, there is a world ascension being. Single staff is referring to Zen master's teaching staff. So within the teaching, there's a world ascension being. There's untold worlds, and also the staff of a practitioner, a traveling monk, a traveling practitioner who goes to different places and has a walking staff. So within these staffs of practicing and teaching, there's a world of sentient beings, universe. So the world of sentient beings covers the universe, literally

[25:09]

Scientifically, you might say, but also because each thing includes every other thing. This often is Indra's net. At each place where the netting crosses, there's a jewel, and that jewel reflects every other jewel in the net. It's all connected and reflecting each other in one. So this is celebrating that. And wherever there is a world of sentient beings, there inevitably is the world of Buddhas and ancestors. The reason this is so, we should study very carefully. This is Dogen again asking us to investigate, study the Buddha way. The world, wherever there's sentient beings, there's Buddhas and ancestors. Sentient beings and Buddhas and ancestors are not two.

[26:09]

And we have our tendency to divide that, samsara and nirvana, sentient beings and Buddhas, dichotomies. And this is, wherever there are sentient beings, that's where Buddhas and ancestors are. And in our practice, we, through our own practice and the way we view things, the way we practice and create our life, we see either the world of suffering and samsara or the practice realm of practice realization right in the midst of samsara. Samsara doesn't hinder us, lotus and muddy water image. It doesn't stop us. It's we practice. depending on our practice and attitude and intention and precept study, we create, right in the middle of samsara, a Buddha field with our practice.

[27:15]

In this way, water... is the palace of the true dragon. It is not flowing away. So in this way, meaning this way, we're talking about water as, you know, this world, you know, there's a world within water, this water of reality, water of Buddha Dharma, water of... So in this way, water is the palace of the true dragon. It is not flowing away. The true dragon, many of you probably know the story of the true dragon. Dogen cites it in different places, including Fukan Zazengi, right? Do not be suspicious of the true dragon, so the true dragon in Fukan Zazengi is like the real Zazen practice, and the true dragon story is the Chinese who loved dragons. Oh, he loves dragons so much and collected carved dragons and had paintings of dragons all over his house.

[28:33]

And a dragon heard about this. Ooh, this man really loves dragons. I will go and visit him. How surprised and happy he will be. And the dragon came to this man's house and he was frightened out of his wits and ran away. The poor dragon. Oh, I thought he liked dragons. So this true dragon is kind of a metaphor for You know, people have lots of ideas about practice. Ooh, I love practice. Ooh, Zen. Zen. I want to study Zen. And then you say, okay, follow the schedule, you know. And it's like, oh, I'm not sure I really want to practice Zen. I think this happens. You know, people have big plans. Big plans, Reggie. That's a children's story. about Reggie, who had big plans about a sleepover, all the stuff they were going to do. It's kind of like that, big plans about our practice, and ooh, I should be a hermit maybe. And it's like, just follow the schedule.

[29:36]

Can you come to Zazen? So in this way, water is the palace. We know that dragons live in palaces. Water is the palace, or this water of the... reality of all beings is the dwelling place, is the place for the true dragon or the true person of the way, the true zazen. And it is not flowing away. So flowing away, if we say, well, water flows, that's it, water flows, that's how it is, water flows. that it says later, right, that's an insult. If we regard it only as flowing, if we have this tight understanding of what practices or water is, the word flowing is an insult to water. It is like imposing non-flowing.

[30:38]

It's same, earlier it talked about if you say that the mountains aren't walking, that's a kind of insult to the mountains to say water is flowing. is an insult. It is both flowing and not flowing. Dogen was talking about water flowing and the way water moves and descends and ascends, that whole section of it goes up, it goes down, it takes all these forms, it's flowing. But if you get caught and say water is flowing, is flowing away, that's not the true dragon. You can't say anything about it, that's only that. So it is not flowing away. The palace of the true dragon, even though the fish and the dragons who lived there, they don't see it flowing away, right?

[31:41]

This is where they live. And there's some You know, this quality of, you know, the only thing that's, how does it go, the only thing that you can say is permanent is impermanence. You know that? So the only thing that you can say about impermanence, which is this flowing away, is that it's permanent, right? So it's not flowing, and it's flowing. It's flowing and not flowing. You can't land either place. And this is the dwelling place of the true dragon. And the true dragon is like the true Bodhisattva, true person of the way. Let's see, Bielfeld says in the true dragon story, Dogen, in Keisei, Sanchoku, and Nam, sounds of the valley streams, forms of the mountains, that...

[32:43]

fascicle in which is embedded the ehekoso, hotsuganmona. What we chant is within that fascicle that was pulled out to make the ehekoso as one piece. Bielfeld says he criticizes those who, though they meet the true teacher, do not love the true dragon. This is because people do not seek the Dharma for the sake of the Dharma, for just the Dharma's sake. And when they see the true dragon, they doubt the true dragon. So he brings this up in case, say, san shoku, if you want to look more into the true dragon and what Dogen has to say. So then, again, if we regard it only as flowing, the word flowing is an insult to water. It is like imposing non-flowing. So we have to always remember these two virtues, non-flowing and flowing.

[33:46]

And if we get caught in one, even though you say, but it's true, it's not quite true. It's not always so. It's true provisionally. So to always remember it's true provisionally for this circumstance, but not quite, not always. And then this, water is nothing but waters. real form just as it is. Now, this real form just as it is, he spoke about earlier, and I think it was one of those things where it just seemed like kind of too much, but I'm going to bring it up today. It has to do with that whole section on the ten suchnesses, remember? The ten suchnesses that are the reality of all existence from the Lotus Sutra. And it also reverberates as an operatic theme with Dharma transmission and the Buddha giving Dharma transmission to Makakasho.

[34:49]

So I'm going to try to pull those two together around this. Water is nothing but water's real form, just as it is. So real form, just as it is, is a translation of the first... words of the ho kyo zammai, nyo zay no ho bu so nifus. Nyo zay is just as it is, or nyo zay no ho is the dharma, or it's a possessive no ho is dharma, so the teaching of thusness we translated, or the dharma of thusness, nyo ho, nyo zay no ho. Nyo zay is thusness, and is the true reality of thusness. Now the true reality of thusness, water is nothing but water's real form just as it is. And this comes from when the Buddha and Makakasho had their Dharma transmission.

[35:53]

The Buddha was on Vulture Peak and he picked up a flower and he twirled the flower. and Makakasho was in the assembly and the Buddha winked. He twirled the flower and winked and Makakasho smiled. And that was the Dharma transmission. And the Buddha said, I have the true Dharma I treasury, the marvelous mind of nirvana, or the fine mind of nirvana, the subtle Dharma gate, that shows the true form of the formless, true form of the formless, true form of the formless is the true form of all existence, or the reality of all beings, or real form, just as it is. So right within this dharma transmission ceremony, he says, I have the true dharma I, the marvelous mind of nirvana,

[36:59]

the subtle dharma gate, the true form of the formless, independent of words and letters, and transmitted outside verbal teachings, nonverbal communication, I entrusted to makashapya. This was their dharma transmission. I entrust what? The true form of the formless. The sho-ho-ji-so. And that's this real form. just as it is, is water. Each and not only water, but each thing, each element, each being. Just as it is, water, just being water, is nyo-ze-ji-so, the real form, just as it is. The true form. So, ji-so is this part of this long

[38:00]

Also, it's part of the long name of Shobo Genzo, which is this, this is what the Buddha said, the true Dharma eye treasury. The Shobo Genzo is the eye of the true Dharma, treasury of the true Dharma eye. So the name of Dogen's masterwork is reverberating and resonating with this transmitting of Dharma, of Shakyamuni to Makakasho. That's what he said to him, and that's what he, that's what Dogen is saying. That's all these fascicles. I'm transmitting to you, you know, the true form. This is what has been transmitted from teachers to students, the true form just as it is. So Dogen is saying that this water is nothing other than thusness and this Nyose,

[39:03]

true form that has been transmitted. So that's all in there with this water is nothing but water's real form just as it is. Water is the virtue of water. It is not flowing. Just being water as it is, it's not simply flowing. It's flowing and not flowing. This is its true form. In the thorough study of the flowing, this is the ten suchnesses, yeah. In the thorough study of the flowing or the not flowing of a single drop of water, the entirety of the ten thousand things is instantly realized. So we can see how that can be now, right?

[40:05]

If, you know, each thing is the reality of all existence. So in the thorough study of the flowing or the not flowing of a single drop of water, the entire myriad things in the ten directions is instantly realized is genjo, this genjo again. And it's not... theoretical about what drops of water only. It's also talking about each of us is also, you know, flowing and not flowing and manifesting completely the entire reality of all existence. The entirety of the 10,000 things. And this reminded me of the Zen Mind Beginner's Mind little chapterette. of Nirvana, the waterfall, you know, in a single drop of water the entirety. So you've got these waters within which the entire universe opens out, it's connected with everything, and sentient beings, endless sentient beings.

[41:16]

And when Suzuki Roshi was sat in Yosemite looking at, I think, was it Bridalville Falls he was watching? And he saw that they were drops of water that were falling so far, they have such a far way to go, and how difficult to fall so far and to be separated. And then they get to the bottom and they enter once again the water, the stream, and how happy they must be and relieved. So this quality of our own lives that we you know, we're, we feel and function, you know, as independent drops of water and we fall far and go through all sorts of things. It's difficult and vanished in an instant, you know, emptied in a flash, a spark from a Flintstone, you know, 40 years over in a flash, you know, of practicing.

[42:22]

So each thing is like this, you know, and it's flowing and not flowing. Although it's just a drop of water that will vanish, it takes its own dharma position completely as its own drop. This also reflects Genjo Koan, right, when it talks about the moon reflected in a puddle an inch wide or even in one drop of water. The whole phenomenal world is reflected, the whole vast moonlight is reflected in a drop of water. This is a similar way of speaking about this. Two drop on the grass. So within this dewdrop is the boundless eternal awakened moonlight mind and it will vanish in an instant.

[43:26]

So this complete impermanence and complete permanence or this eternal, this is back to the first sentence of our San Sui Kyo, you know, the present moment manifesting the ancient Buddhas. So it's coming back to this theme. This section is like the conclusion. So he's asking us to deeply study and realize this. And when we do, studying one thing is mastering it, wholehearted.

[44:33]

Here's the place, here the way unfolds. We can study right here who we are. We just take one thing to study it, and all the 10,000 things are there. And the question to us is, you know, we've been studying this sutra all, practice period, and has it come home? Does it come home? How will I express these virtues of mountains and waters as mountain, as water, as not different than mountains and waters, as a mountain person or a water person? And we start, we don't have to go off. We start right here. It's all here. We can start right with ourself to study ourself. And it can be actualized. Kaz says, when you investigate the flowing and not flowing of a handful of water through experience,

[45:40]

experience of all, no, thorough experience of all things is immediately actualized. When you investigate the flowing and not flowing, both the virtues, in a handful of water, it doesn't have to be this big grand thing. You can take anything and study the virtues. All things are immediately actualized, Genjo. Among mountains as well, There are mountains hidden in jewels. There are mountains hidden in marshes. Mountains hidden in the sky. There are mountains hidden in the mountains. There is a study of mountains hidden in hiddenness. So this word hidden is zo, and it's the zo of shobogenzo, which is often translated as treasury, the treasury of the true Dharma eye. Shobo-gen, the zo of the Shobo-gen, the I. So a treasury or a storehouse or a place where things are, you know, where you put something to store it.

[46:56]

And there's the different translations. Nichijima says containment. Mountains, you know, contained. In Jules, Clary says concealed. There's a study which conceals mountains in concealment. Cause use is hidden. So this, you know, I mean, there's various things people said which I can let you know. For example, there's marshes, there's some... where there was a mountain hidden in marshes, and when there was a mountain hidden in the sky, where there was a mountain, Mount Sumeru was filled with jewels, so there's a mountain hidden in jewels. So I think there's a kind of literal themes or resonances with other things, but

[48:04]

You know, taking mountain as existence of all things and within a jewel there is all things are realized, all things are there within anything. So taking these particular objects and within it, penetrated by it, is the existence of the reality of all things. There's a mountain hidden in ourself. There's a mountain hidden in each of us. the interconnected life of all beings. Each of us is that. It's right there within us. We are it. And Okamura Roshi says, within our practice, Buddha is hidden. That means Buddha is stored or treasured within us. within us and we are treasured and stored and concealed and contained within Buddha. So this, you know, it's hard to pin it down in a kind of, it has a flowing quality of this inner penetrated reality that's kind of inconceivable.

[49:22]

And within each thing we do, there's a mountain within each activity. All things are there. And old Buddha has said, mountains are mountains and waters are waters. These words do not say that mountains are mountains. They say that mountains are mountains. Therefore, we should thoroughly study these mountains. When we thoroughly study the mountains, this is the mountain training. Such mountains and waters themselves become wise men, wise people and sages. So this is our final paragraph, which, you know, just spending some time with it and reading the different commentaries. This is like an opera is bringing up and reverberates with other Zen masters, Chinese Zen masters, who have said similar things. There's two in particular.

[50:27]

One is our old friend, Master Yun Men, who said, the east mountain walks over the water. Remember that? Way back in February or whenever. Yun Men came into the Dharma Hall one day for formal instruction and said, you monks must not think falsely. Heaven is heaven. Earth is earth. Mountain is mountain. River is river. Monk is monk. Layperson is layperson. And then he said, all monks, don't be lost in fantasy. So, you know, we don't know, was Dogen, you know, Yun-men is in the Mountains and Water Sutra, maybe he was bringing up this thing that Yun-men said, mountains are mountains, rivers are rivers. And Okamura, actually I wrote this down, Okamura said, after all of these discussions about virtues of mountains and waters, what Dogen now is saying here is mountain is just mountain and water is just water.

[51:34]

Then he says, he is an outrageous Zen master. That's Okamura Roshi. So yeah, after this thing we've been studying, he comes back to mountains are mountains and water. It's not to say that mountains are mountains, but we should thoroughly study, you know, that mountains are mountains. So the other Zen master who used this is qing guan wuxin, qing guan wuxin. And this is maybe more familiar. This is a pretty famous one. I heard this way long ago when I first started practicing. He says, 30 years ago, when I had not studied Zen, I saw that mountains are mountains and waters are waters. Later, I intimately met my teacher and entered this place. I saw that mountains are not mountains and waters are not waters.

[52:37]

Now I have attained the place of resting. As before, I simply see that mountains are mountains and waters are waters. You know that one? You've heard that one? It's, I think, really famous. So in this first one by Yun-men, you know, he's saying to his monks, don't be delusional, don't have disordered perceptions, don't have fantasies here. Mountains are mountains, monks are monks, heaven is heaven. What does he say? River's a river, earth is earth. layperson is a layperson. Don't be lost in fantasy. And to me that was, don't get caught up in all of our karmic thinking about what someone is. Stay very simple with a kind of a don't know mind. It's just, this person is a person. The sky is sky. And without any additional stuff, heaven is heaven.

[53:40]

And just within that, as we've just said, everything is there. We don't have to slather it with all of our opinions and perceptions, what we think, and then hold to that and get in fights and put down other people. And because we, you know, if we're just studying sky is sky, everything's included there. So I think this is a meditation instruction, too. Don't be lost in fantasy. I was talking with someone who basically was just giving over to fantasy. You know, they knew what they were doing and they were just going to give over to fantasy. So we can do that for a while and then I think we'll get tired of that because we're mountain and river people, mountain and water people who want to be in alignment with the true reality of all things. So we get tired, I think, of being lost in fantasy. So this other one, you know, this, he first, before he was introduced to Zen, before anything, before he studied Zen, we have our assumptions, mountains are mountains, waters are waters.

[55:03]

We just think we know what it is. And if somebody were to say something different, we'd think they're crazy. And then he starts to study intimately. and enters this place. And he realized, you know, kind of like Heart Sutra, like Prashnaparamita language, no eyes, no ears, no nose, no mountains, no waters. If you study, you see that there is no abiding self. There is no mountain solid thing that I know what it is. And you have this wisdom language that says, no, no, no. There is no thing, the way you think of it as a thing, substantial and solid and all settled. Not quite. And then later, now, and people can get stuck there in the no, no, no, in the emptiness. But then we come back down from the mountain.

[56:08]

Now I've attained the place of resting. And as before, I can see them again. They are mountains are mountains, and waters are waters. He's not stuck in a kind of emptiness thing or stuck in solidity. He sees them as the true suchness, the true form as it is, which includes both virtues, right? So, you know, how do we... see the true mountains, the true form, which is no form, which is form. These words do not say that mountains are mountains. They say that mountains are mountains. So this is a kind of koan for us. What does Dogen, why does he say this? The mountains aren't what ordinary people think. They're

[57:10]

you know, the mountains of the reality of all existence, the waters of the reality of all existence, the waters and mountains of Buddhadharma, can we see? We can see conventionally. We understand when people are talking about mountains and the solidity and we understand that, but we're not stuck there. It's the mountains and waters of Buddhadharma. So were liberated from being stuck in either. That's the third mountain. It's our mountains and waters are waters. It's leaping clear, you know, of the many and the one. It's not being stuck. And this, just like an opera, kind of goes back to, you know, the East Mountain moves over the water was what Yun-Man said in response to this question, which, if you remember this discussion Okuma Roshi didn't like the translation, where do all the Buddhas come from?

[58:16]

Do you remember that? He felt that that wasn't what was being asked, that the character Sushin, I think, meant what place are all the Buddhas liberated from? Are they liberated from their Buddhahood? Do you remember that? It was a discussion of not, you know, letting go of the attainment, attaining Buddhahood and letting go of the attainment. That, he felt, was the monk's question. Where is the place... that Buddhas are liberated from their Buddhahood, go beyond Buddhahood, leap clear. Now this was a discussion of Vokumar that I really, really appreciated. So I don't know if I can do it justice, but it really came home to me as what is our practice now, having studied this and been kind of imbued or saturated, soaked with the virtues of flowing and not flowing, peacefully abiding in our Dharma position and constantly walking.

[59:23]

What is the practice there? How do we not revert back to I know what mountains our mountains are? So Okamura brings up just the practice of shikan or shikantasa or just sitting or the practice of just doing, which Dogen is very, very important in Dogen and Ru Jing, shikantasa, just sitting, just sitting, 100% just sitting, or all the admonitions about just doing what is in front of us, just, and with guest season coming up, you know, this was, You know, here we have this practice. We're not going to be sitting as much. We're going to be doing lots of activities, Samantabhadra. And can we simply just do each thing, just clean the cabins, just empty the waste paper baskets, just, and in that just doing it 100%, everything is there.

[60:29]

And we can be at rest. in our Dharma position, our role this coming summer, our role in our life, this being whatever we're doing. Can we just be this person? And as we know, just this person is the entirety. Everything's there. So, you know, our suffering of not being someone else or something else or unable to accomplish. If we can 100% do exactly what is in front of us with sincerity, with the virtue, the virtue of flowing and not flowing and sincerity, everything's there. And we can't stay put because we're constantly walking, but we can rest in wherever we are, whatever... whatever job we have, whatever family we have, whatever the challenges and problems to rest and completely do it, shikan, just do it.

[61:42]

So Ogrimura feels like this is the kind of final answer to Dogen's quest. You know, if we're already enlightened, why do we need to practice his practice? deepest question that sent him off into practice and asking teachers, sent him to China. Okamura Roshi feels like Dogen in this fascicle most clearly states how it is that just sitting or just doing one thing, just chopping vegetables, just this. is the entirety. He feels in Mountains and Water Sutra with the two virtues of flowing and not flowing is this complete kind of how it is that just doing one thing is everything. And I really got a feeling for that as I was reading this commentary.

[62:44]

So we have these kind of contradictory, dichotomous, dualistic qualities that we feel and yet they're they get united in just doing exactly what we're doing 100%. Wholeness of practice, wholeness of realization, right? So, yeah, Okamura says, out of all of Dogen's writings, and he, out of, you know, anybody he has, in this day and age, I think, has studied Shobho Genzo and Dogen's and translated and worked. He says, out of all of his surroundings, he puts more energy here to explain how it is that we do shikhandasa, or that's our practice, or shikane, anything. And along with that, and this comes up all the time, I think you've heard it in many Dharma talks, where someone will say, well, if just this is it,

[63:49]

then if I just do anything, then that's it. If I just, like in that question to Suzuki Rush, if I just eat all the time while I'm working in the kitchen, then that's Buddha too, right? That's the entirety, which is, I think, and I've heard it many times, you know, it becomes an excuse for us for I want to do whatever I want. It's different from Dershang, who said, I'm not going to go to a monastery. I want to do what I like. Doing what he likes, after 30 years of practice with his teacher, Yaku-san, and doing what he likes is totally in alignment with Buddha Dharma. Doing what he likes, we don't have to worry about Dershang, that he's going to make trouble. When he says, I want to do what I like, What I like is suffused with the precepts and Buddha Dharma.

[64:56]

That's what he likes. Somebody else might say, anything I like to do, that's Buddha Dharma. And it's just an excuse for self-centered activity and making one's own schedule, and I want to do it my way, and don't tell me what to do, because anything I do is Buddha Dharma, right? It says right here. And this is where you can take the Dharma teachings and you can distort them with self-centeredness. And I think it's Eakin Roshi in Mind of Clover, when he talks about the precepts, says, you know, Mara can speak Dharma, can speak Dharma words, but for Mara's own purposes, you know. So things can be distorted and you can take... Dharma things and they become poison. So that's why it's so important to be practicing the precepts, whether you've received them or not, to be aware and practicing the precepts and studying the teaching rather than pulling out a little snippet like everything's Buddha.

[66:09]

Oh great, then I can do whatever I want. Or everything's empty. That's another one. It's all empty. There's no self there. There's no abiding self. And Judy might remember this when we were in Columbia. I've told this story. Columbia, South America, we had just, the delegation, Buddhist delegation, had visited Comune Trese, this place where they had the paramilitary had come and done unspeakable things and killed people and killed their children and taken people away, disappeared people and they were meeting with us and telling their stories and sobbing and crying and we were crying and it was really very, very intense and moving and from there we went to this Buddhist Sangha in Medellin and We talked about this delegation, what we had been doing, and that we had met with this group, mostly women, mostly mothers, and how, you know, intense it had been.

[67:22]

And one of these practitioners said, raised his hand and said something like, but it's all empty anyway, you know. And I remember I had this, it was like an adrenaline hit, you know, I just had this. thing rise up in me and my heart was like just pounding. It was like, because there was the teaching of emptiness, great wisdom beyond wisdom emptiness, being applied in a way that made it poisoned, made it cruel, made it, I don't know, made it not Buddha Dharma actually. And I think I could barely answer them. I don't know if you remember, Judy, I was trying to speak in a measured tone to kind of... I didn't know this person, their teacher was there. I wasn't... But I tried to speak to this point of using emptiness teachings or dharma in a way that is hurtful.

[68:33]

poisonous and isn't grounded in the full teachings. It's taking a little snippet, using it to support your own way, kind of. And Okamura, there's a long section that I didn't study that much, but he brings up the way Zen and War, the way during the Second World War, some Zen teachers, some of you have read that book, Zen and War, used dharma and emptiness for people to go out and there's nobody there really, you just kill. So there's these teachings, we have to be coursing in the precepts, coursing in Buddhadharma, and thoroughly, just like Dogen says over and over, thoroughly study, not just take a little snippet and use it, investigate over and over again, consider, reflect, ask about the teaching, check out our understanding, or it is a disservice and can be dangerous, really.

[69:47]

And there he says it, when we thoroughly study, The mountains, this is the mountain training. When we're thoroughly studying this way, that is our training, that is our practice period, that's our practice realization. And then, do what I want in the context of Buddha's teaching is in alignment. Such mountains and waters themselves become wise people and sages. So the wise people and sages appear in the world embedded with, imbued, not even imbued and embedded, they are the teachings. express in all their actions these teachings.

[70:56]

The mountains and the sages become one, disappear into each other. And that is the last line of the Mountains and Rivers, Mountains and Waters Sutra. Thank you very much. Yes, I really do thank you for your attention and participation in this. And may we continue to study this. So it's 11.30. I was hoping we'd do some walking this morning, but also since it is the last lecture, are there any comments or any? Yes, Rachel. I don't think the Dharma is distorted. The Dharma itself is the Dharma. I think people take what they distort, their understanding is distorted, so they take things and use them in ways that aren't in accord with Dharma.

[72:09]

The Dharma itself, I don't think, can be distorted itself. And the Sangha You know, there's people who can make, in a self-centered way, have their own precepts or their own guidelines and be in Sangha life. And I think it makes difficulties. It makes troubles for people. It causes unhappiness. The Sangha itself is not... What word did you use? Corrupted. Sangha means the harmony of all, bringing harmony. But people can be corrupted and make difficulties. So that has to be addressed.

[73:13]

That has to be identified and cared for, you know, because human beings are human beings. You know, our last precept about slandering or abusing the three treasures or disciple of the Buddha does not disparage, you know, the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha, the three treasures, aren't really touched by that in a certain way. But the precepts are for us, and when we do that, the karma of that or the effect of that can be very harmful to oneself and others. But the actual dharma or the Buddha or the sangha itself, it actually is not

[74:14]

changed or abused. The Buddha isn't abused. Awakened life isn't abused. But the person itself has an abusive mind, you know, is in an abusive state themselves or disparaging state themselves as they do that. Yeah. I misguided. Well, then it wasn't the real dharma because it was the story. But I'm not sure. Yeah. Well, I think we have to take refuge over and over and over again because the first time we take refuge, you know, we may have wild ideas about what it is, you know.

[75:17]

there's still that way-seeking mind that took refuge. And then we let go of, and then it's maybe more full and more full and more full until we become the mountain. So I think, you know, I'm so happy that we recite, we take refuge, we take refuge morning and night, right? During practice period and during the summer, right? we keep it in service, we take refuge, but at night we do the buddhamsarana. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so it's, we continue to take refuge, we continue to bow, it's not, okay, once and for all, it's, it's a practice, it's daily, it's moment by moment we can take refuge. Mike, Heather, you had your hand up, too?

[76:18]

Yeah, but I've been talking a lot, so... You have? Well, I'm... Mike, how tall are you, Mike? Six-four. Six-four? So picture Huangbo at seven feet. It's like... Let's go ahead. Wow. Wow. I just wanted to thank you for your initial comments. I was going to think you clarified something that anyone who has come into a spiritual community or Zen center has thought about it sometimes, and that has to do with the reaching out. And, you know, we talked yesterday about that a little bit in regards to being free around not having people, you know, try to get something from you or get you to do something. But the warmth has to be there. You know, the warmth is kind of like the man... of being treated. If it wasn't for the manner of like, you know, Jeffrey Schneider, Laura Burgess, Amanda Girard, and City Center, you know, I would have, you know, a bit like, well, does anybody care?

[77:27]

You know? So the manner was, you know, was like, hey, we accept you. It was different than a religious prerequisite to be accepted. Or I can feel there's a subtle undertone, but Michael hasn't seen a rock with him yet. So we've really kind of come treated that well. Or he doesn't really, you know, say that he's got some sort of idea about being at least one day. So he's in this other category, you know? Yeah, you did not feel that. Yeah, and there's no real pressure. Well, you've been around here for a year and a half now, and you haven't started talking about some of your walkthroughs. There wasn't a religious prerequisite for me to come to action. And that's what I think is so important, is that... the people are allowing to grow in their own space, you know, but if it's without the, without the warmth, also for the way that Ryushin, when other people, you know, reached out to me, it's, you know, maybe it would have been a cool place on how long it would have stayed.

[78:29]

Yes, yeah. Thank you for that. You know, when you name those names, I had this, it was like, these bodhisattvas have been named and, you know, Diana Girard, you know, it's like these practitioners, you know, I really felt them as these presences that I trust, you know. Anyway, thank you for that comment, yeah. And for some people, they couldn't even pick up on that welcoming vibe, that warmth, that they need something more. They need an actual... person coming up and saying, I'm so happy you're here, or whatever. People need different things, but I appreciate the points you're making. Heather? My comment is about the people who say, well, I can do whatever I want because it's food and nature and everything that I need. Yeah. Well, it just seems like we should be paying should, not like should, but looking at what the result is of your action, because...

[79:30]

emptiness can't resist without form. So there's all these forms that actually bleed, that actually hurt, that actually cry. So just to say that because there's not an abiding Heather or Linda Ruth, does that mean that that being isn't harmed by your action? So I don't see how can you eliminate the form to say it's just emptiness. That, to me, is a really distinct note. whole teaching. And then I think a little bit where it arose when you were saying that was just how some people distorts, you know, Jesus' teachings, you know, excluding people who are gay or lesbian or excluding this person. And I was like, don't Jesus like hang out with the lepers and the prostitutes? What am I, what are you missing from that? Just because it's mentioned twice or something in the Bible. So I think it's just like

[80:30]

The slithering out, taking out, like you said, what they want to validate their, the way they've been conditioned to hate or to exclude it. I don't see, I guess this is hard to sort of understand how we can say, well, everything's empty, so therefore I can just go around and agree. That's not what it's saying. It's like, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think people... I think we all tend to do one-sidedness. We have to be self-correcting. We have to see it. We have to feel it when that's being out of alignment. How do we hold and express these two things in every moment really is what I think this is asking us to do. It's a tall order, but there's nothing else worthy of our life. giant efforts into being one-sided feels, you know?

[81:34]

So it's, but yeah, but people do speak that way. I mean, not, so I'm going to go out and hurt people, but I mean, I heard this person say it as their response to the world, you know? So we need to be aware of that when it's, when we're doing it in the different degrees we do it, and and not fall for it. It can be very, especially charismatic people who use, people get caught up in it. It's interesting because it seems like the more I practice, the less heather arises and therefore the less separation arises. So I obviously don't understand. I think to me it's like the compassion arises more than the separation. the compassion arises the more I practice rather than a separation.

[82:36]

So having an understanding of emptiness, compassion arises more than when I go out and conquer the world because everything's empty, so I'm just going to chop everything down. Well, there's a term called Zen sickness, which you probably heard, where people, the compassion... there's some emptiness glimpse or whatever, and they get kind of caught in that. So you know about that, I think. And what do they say? That's the hardest spiritual illness or whatever, malady, to cure. Because anything you say, well, it's all empty. You know, it's very hard to work with somebody who's caught in that. Yeah.

[83:37]

We have, let's see, we have Jane over here. We have Shoto and Linda. We have John. We have Ki. We have after King King. We have lunch. Mine's really short. Okay, I'm gonna go this, Jane. Yeah, this is kind of a continuation of this conversation. I'm just thinking about the Tibetan people who have suffered so much in situations in China and how compassionate they are, many of them, towards their tortures and that kind of thing. And so I was thinking about this whole teaching, why there could be emptiness, that It also could be used in a positive way when you're in a situation, but when you're looking at other people in the curriculum, rather than thinking about what you could do yourself, as a way of not picking up this, he did this to me.

[84:53]

Yes. But rather to give yourself the space to... encounter people who are cool. Yes. And I think keeping the two virtues in mind, you know, it's not everything is empty, it's all things are flowing and not flowing. So I think that to me, from this sutra, maybe that's what I take as the practice, is this. bearing in mind, too, and not getting stuck in either. Yeah. Okay. Linda, and then Shoto. Along the same lines, someone once said to me, I think maybe it was R.H. Blight, if you're me, then I know what you want, which is, of course, what I want. Right. But if I'm you, then compassion flows inside others' flows.

[85:58]

I'm going to have to ponder that. It's kind of a very everyday way of putting it. If I take emptiness as it's all my point of view, then that's nihilism. But if emptiness, because of emptiness, everything matters, everything is interdependent, therefore everything that I do has a profound effect because you can't separate it out rather than everything's cut in pieces, everything's interconnected. I'm intimately connected with you. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Shoto. So it seems like there's time issues. I will skip the story. I'm talking to my original question. OK. Sushin, I think it was, the place where Buddhists all come from.

[87:04]

Could you say again Okoro Roshi's actual translation of it? I have just a memory of being so excited about that. The character Sushin in colloquial Japanese means where you're from, but the actual character, kind of idiomatically, so it's translated as where do all the Buddhists come from. that's the usual translation. But he says the Sushin is actually where you come, where you come out or where you liberated or emancipated. And it's used in Fukanzazengi playing at the, at the threshold, but not. Right, right. It's that emancipation. So, and it, so he feels that the, Better translation is, where are all the Buddhas liberated or emancipated from their Buddhahood? Where are the Buddhas liberated?

[88:05]

They're already Buddhas, so where are they liberated from their Buddhahood? And that's how he... John, a short question. Yeah. Yeah, this is actually not even a question. I was thinking about the merit badges, and I thought, if we could have a picture, like an illustration of Odiyama's face, smiling... This is very holy. I just want to mention one... Oh, Erin. I just wanted to acknowledge that every lecture and every class, you very kindly use the term we when you're talking about... studying and going through the sutra. But actually, I think you've done all the work. I've been working so hard to present this sutra to us. And I visited you in your accounting lots of times with you sitting there with all these papers and these various things.

[89:12]

And so I just wanted to give you a big appreciation for making it through a whole sutra and to be doing all of this research for us and presenting it to us. Thank you. Thank you very much. I really did mean we, though. Yeah. Thank you. It was actually the joy of doing that thorough a study, you know, and that slowly. A number of people have said that, you know, sentence by sentence. And we don't have often or give ourselves the time to do that kind of really slow down enough and take something that slowly. And I can... I can't do it at Green Gulch very easily, but you can do it at Tassara. So I feel very, very grateful. Yes. Oh, a key. Sorry. Yes. What, what? Are you sure, Key? You're sure?

[90:14]

Okay. I just really feel I have to mention one other thing, which is something Tia told me. You know, Tia was in this very bad... bike accident, some of you know where she, on Geary, if you can picture Geary Street in San Francisco, she doesn't know exactly what happened. Her teeth were broken, her face was terrible, and she was on the ground, and who should appear but our very own Heather Gee. And Heather said to her, Tia, it's Heather, and I will stay with you, right? I will be with you. That's what she told me. Yeah. Anyway, the improbability of, if you can picture Geary, that your very own Dharma friend and sister would be right there. And Tia said, once I heard that, I could just relax.

[91:15]

And, you know, went in the ambulance. But I just wanted to acknowledge that, that it was... How that happened, it's inconceivable, and what a huge difference it made to her, and what a huge difference it would make to anyone to just say, I'm here, and I'll stay with you. So I just wanted to let people know about that. Okay, thank you very much. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge. and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[92:03]

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