This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. The Satipatthana Supta. People have never heard of that. Can I put up both hands one? I don't know. So most people have? Satyak Bhatana Sutra is one of the primary or foundational sutras in the Pali Canon describing the process of mindfulness. It could be translated as the path of mindfulness or the process of mindfulness. Just a few general comments about it.

[01:01]

It's not very long, and I'll read through as far as we get. I'll read through it and then we'll discuss it. Think and note about it is, you know, in the Soto tradition, the Soto Zen tradition, we talk about Shikantaza, you know, just sitting. just sitting being the foundational practice, the essential practice, and the expression of this tradition, the expression of awakening, of being the moment. And in many ways the Satipatthana Sutta, to my mind, maybe a controversial statement, instructs on how to bring forth, how to express, how to be Shikantazo.

[02:07]

When you look at the Zen literature, you don't see a rich detailed process, and maybe by design. Maybe in the Zen literature the notion is not to fill us up with some sense of progression, some sense, okay, it should happen just like this, but give it a more poetic expression, whereas the Satipatthana does indeed give it a progression. It does give it a particularity. I mean, I think it's fair to say you can read it as, okay, start here, do this, then do this, then do this, and work through these phases. So that's one notion, that sense of detailed progression. Another notion that comes out in the Satipatthana is, it repeats itself.

[03:20]

The structure of it was designed to be memorized. So there's a kind of a repetition in the structure of the sutra. And there's a constant refrain, see it when it's there, see it when it's not there. See it arise, see it fall away. Developing a matter-of-factness about what's going on. Okay, and I am going to, this is the direct path of realization by a monk, a German monk who lives in Sri Lanka called Analeo. I'm going to refer to that with some cross-referencing to this version of the middle-length sayings by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi.

[04:23]

I recommend this book. I think it's terrific. I think very even-handed and very well detailed in its footnotes. So like all the sutras, it starts off, thus have I heard. This was, the story is the sutras were recounted by Ananda at the First Council after Shakyamuni Buddha had died. Ananda had a memory that allowed him to remember everything Shakyamuni Buddha had said. So after, he recounted them and they were, actually, initially they were brought into an oral tradition. They weren't written down because that was not the process of the time, for we think about 300 years. Thus have I heard. On the occasion of the Blessed One was living in Kuru, Kanti, at a time where the Kuru is called Kamasadama, supposedly near Delhi.

[05:33]

There addressed the monks, he said, Monks, Venerable Sir, they replied, the Blessed One said thus, Monks, this is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the surmounting of sorrow and lamentation, and for the disappearance of dukkha and discontent. for acquiring the true method for the realization of nirvana, namely the four satipatanas. What are the four? Here, monks, in regard to the body, a monk abides contemplating the body, diligent, clearly knowing, and mindful, free from desires and discontent in regard to the world. In regard to feelings, he abides contemplating feelings, diligent, clearly knowing, and mindful, free from desires, discontent in regard to the world. In regard to the mind, he abides contemplating the mind, diligent, clearly knowing, and mindful, free from desires and discontent of the world. In regard to the Dhammas, he abides contemplating Dhammas, diligent, clearly knowing, mindful, free from desires and discontent in the world."

[06:45]

As you read the body of the sutra, you see that even though those seem like emphatic or absolute terms, free from desires and discontent, as you read the body of the sutra, you can see that really what's being suggested is that enough settledness to be able to start to pay attention to what's going on rather than being lost in it. And how much settledness is that? This is really a yogic question. This is a question you explore in your own being, realizing that the process of practice is an experiential practice, an experiential process, and not simply accumulating facts. What does it take to notice what's going on rather than being caught up in it?

[07:55]

This is the way, part of the equation of Shikantaza, the equation of Zazen. What is the alchemy of settling your being enough so that you can notice the thoughts, the feelings, physical sensations, the traits of mind, rather than spinning off in them. And for the most part, even though Shikantaza might seem like it has a singularity in its own way, It's more if you think of the word samadhi, it means continuous contact.

[08:57]

Well, how continuous? That you notice every single thought moment, each thought moment being about a third of a second? Or that you notice, you know, one out of six? so that every other second there's a moment of awareness. In contrast, you notice one out of a hundred. So you have a moment of awareness. What about, I don't know, what would that be? Every five minutes. Every five minutes. So the Saitiputtana lays out the progression. It sort of says, implicit in its processes, it says, okay, here's a good place to start, and here's a good way to start. And then as you practice this, you can move into this, and then as you practice this and this, you can start to move into this, and as you practice this, this, and this, then you can start, there's enough of a foundation in settledness that you can start to engage in a matter-of-fact, attentive way to the complications

[10:14]

of human consciousness. And maybe not surprising, not surprising to me, the place to start is in the body. And sometimes in the early suttras, physical sensations are listed first, and then sometimes the breath is listed first. Sometimes Preparatory practices. When I was practicing in Thailand, I was taught two preparatory practices. Well, three. One was, everything changes. So as you walk around, every person, everything you see, you say to yourself, this person, this thing is subject to change. It will disintegrate and no longer be.

[11:16]

And then another practice was the parts of the body. The body is made up of constituent parts, and then there's a list of parts, and you analyze them. And then the other one was the desire causes suffering. If you desire, you suffer. Keep those three in your mind. So that's one. Another one is attention to the body. And then the satipatthana, attention to the breath. And here's how it's described. And how, monks, does he regard the body, abiding contemplation of the body? Here, gone into the forest, at the root of a tree or in an empty hut, he sits down, folding his legs crosswise. body erect, establishing mindfulness in front of her, breathes in mindfully, breathes out mindfully. Breathing in long, she knows I breathe in long.

[12:22]

Breathing out long, she knows I breathe out long. Breathing in short, he knows I breathe in short. Breathing out short, he knows I breathe out short. He trains thus. I shall breathe in experiencing the whole body. He trains us. I shall breathe out experiencing the whole body. He trains us. I shall breathe in calming the bodily formation. I shall breathe out calming the bodily formation. Just as a skilled turner and as apprentice, making a long turn knows I make a long turn, and when making a short turn knows I make a short turn. So too. Breathing in, knowing, This is a long breath, breathing out knowing this is a short breath. So you sit upright, and then you just notice the breath, just as it is. That's the point, the initial point of contact.

[13:23]

How is the breath being experienced in the body? Noting and acknowledging. And as the mind's less settled, the noting and acknowledging has more of a cognitive function. And then as the mind is more settled, it's more of a thoughtless acknowledging. When there's more settledness, there's experiencing it. So you just kind of track the experience. You don't bother generating some words or articulations to acknowledge it. Okay? You've all mastered that, right? And then the way this sutra is set up, you have the instruction, and then the next part is a little bit like, and here's the good stuff that happens when you follow this.

[14:26]

Here's the insight. As you get into this, here's what becomes apparent. The whole sutra is built like this. Okay, do this, do it like this, and here's what becomes apparent. In this way, in regard to the body, he abides contemplating the body internally, or he abides contemplating the body externally, or he abides contemplating the body both internally and externally. Or he abides contemplating the nature of arising in the body and contemplates the nature of passing away. Or he abides contemplating the nature of both arising and passing away. Or mindful that there is a body is established in him to the extent necessary for pure knowledge and continuous mindfulness. Okay. This is probably one of the most difficult parts of the whole sutra.

[15:35]

So, unfortunately, it comes at the start, this notion of internal and external. You know, when I was looking at Analeo's notes and Anamalo's, Anamalo's and Bhikavodi's notes. What is it? contemplate internally and what is to contemplate externally. And they both referred back to the original Pauli text and said that the internal, the word used for internal is the literal notion internal and the word used for external is more the literal word, you know, like this and that, this and other. but I'm going to offer you my own notion. Because as the sutra goes on, you know, and then it's talking about, well, be aware of the feelings internally, be aware of the feelings externally.

[16:45]

So then it's like, be aware of someone else's feelings. Think, okay, that's possible. But then it says, be aware of the thoughts and notice the thoughts. Then it says, be aware of the thoughts externally, you know, and then it's like, well. Do you have to be telepathic to do that? I'd offer you this notion, that as we engage experience, it takes on a sort of unformulated expression, you know? When you feel Your spine, you know? And the direction of your attention is feeling the spine. It's all like it goes beyond the words. It goes to just sensation, just experience.

[17:47]

Now when you engage the world, it takes form, it takes expression. It takes shape, a little bit like emptiness, form. And if you think about the basic Buddhist teaching of dependent co-arisings, the notion of self and other is in Buddhism a contrived or arbitrary or expedient means. you know, like when you look at modern science now, you know, when you look, when you see that the occipital lobe that participates in creating a vision, a notion of something other being seen, you know, the majority of the activity in creating it is not what comes in through the sense object, the eye, it's the activity in the brain.

[18:53]

So in other words, what you're seeing now, you are contributing the majority of the experience through your own internal neurological activity. So to say what you're seeing is separate other from you is not accurate. Now to say that it's perceived as an external event, to say that it's different from the unformulated sense experience when you attend to the internal. So that's my notion. That's my proposition. First of all, was that clear? Was that clear? Or are you afraid to say, absolutely not? So you're saying the external event that we're perceiving in regard to once we get to the stage of being aware and in touch with other people's thoughts.

[20:01]

Yes. And this seems like an ESP sort of ability that we could talk about things like that because it's just our perception that we're viewing something external. And so you're saying it's possible. It's seeing it externally. I am saying that the instruction is not so much, the instruction is more like this. Experience it as a fundamental experience or sensation. Experience it as a formulation. Well, the sutras is one, the other, or some combination of both. So there is something there to be perceived if you have gone through the previous preparatory stages.

[21:08]

Yeah. Well, it starts right here with the body. So experience the body as sensation and experience the body as a formulated entity. So if you notice, you pay attention, we're experiencing sensation, and then we're formulating, oh, my knee is hurting. Well, there's a sensation. My knee is hurting is a formulation generated in the mind. My knee was hurting, and I just think it's my knee, and you're over there, and you don't see us as separate. there is, and I'm having this emotion that my, you know, this pain, you know, through the preparatory, you know, stages we already moved past, having done those, you would be aware in some way or another of my pain. No, no.

[22:08]

I think you're missing my point. What I'm saying is this thing of internal and external is what's experienced as sensation, and what's formulated. Not necessarily, I mean, you may have some notion from what's coming in through your senses about an external object called me. But from Buddha's teaching of dependent core arising, you are participating in the creation of that external object. And I'm saying, That's how we can be aware of it, because we participate in its creation. How does that awareness manifest in the second sutta? Well, it manifests as we go through this progression of experiences. The first one is the body. And what I'm saying, the interpretation I'm offering, because, like, how do you experience the body externally?

[23:14]

And I'm saying, The way it makes sense to me is to say, experience it, a sensation beyond words and ideas, and then experience the way it becomes formulated into existence. Like, my knee hurts, or my posture is not straight. So, in a way, it's a make contact with what's going on, and then notice, you know, is it raw sensation, or is it a more complicated notion, my posture is not straight. I mean, there's a me in there, there's a notion of straight, and there's a notion of not straight, you know, what should or could be happening or not happening. So noticing it all. That's what I'm saying.

[24:18]

Okay? Any other, yeah, go ahead. The movements were the body, the feelings, the mind, the thoughts. Yes, that's correct. In a sentence or two, the dharmas then are like, would that be like our samskara? It's a progression. The first one would be the hindrances. Then the second one would be the aggregates. Then the third one would be the sense fields. And you can think even that of as a progression. First thing, get in touch with the way you get agitated. And then as you get in touch with that, then you're more available to experience your being in a more fundamental way. Forms, feelings, perceptions, impulses, consciousness. So what they say, like this form, body, feeling, thought, is this the same or analogous to...

[25:21]

feeling, sensation, perception? Not exactly. Not exactly. There's a similarity, but it's not the same. And it comes up in different places here. You hear a list and you think, oh, is that the same as that list? And it's close, but not exactly. Any other questions or comments? The Buddha advises us to breathe in, calming the body. Breathe out, calm the body? Well, let's see. The Buddha says, know that it's a long breath, know that it's a short breath. Breathe in, experiencing the whole body. Breathe out, experiencing the whole body. Breathe in, calming the whole bodily formation. Breathe out, calming the whole bodily formation. Yeah. It seems like very specific yogic instructions. Yeah. Calm the body. Yeah. Is that what you call a shamatha?

[26:22]

Is that shamatha? It's a preparatory phase of it. Well, I guess it is. If you just continue that, shamatha will develop. What's the place of reality in this? I'm thinking of an example where we were suddenly hit by a car from the back yes okay okay i feel my body and i can think of how i'm formulating the idea i was just hit by a car from the back you know i think that because there's a lot of cars here and it's feeling um but it like I'm wondering what this is saying about actual reality here, if there is one outside.

[27:28]

There's not a reality independent of what's arising in the moment, if that's what you were asking. Yeah. So then how can my mind have... formulated this reality if it didn't even know it was about to happen when it happened? It participated. I mean, it's different to say dependent co-arising. So the many factors together create the moment. So is there some reality in the outside factors? Well, to go back to your description, you know, there's some sensation, intense, painful sensation arises, and maybe in that moment your mind gives rise to the formulation struck by a moving vehicle.

[28:38]

I mean, that's what we do all the time. We have raw data. and then we create a formulation. Or we don't. I mean, if you ever watch yourself, say something like hearing a sound. If you hear a sound of a blue jay, you probably might barely notice. Now, if you hear a sound that your mind can't categorize in an immediate casual way, Usually it catches your attention. And it usually will have some flavor of curiosity or concern. What's that? Curious or what's that? Is everything okay? Was that something terrible just happened? So our mind, quite naturally, without much volition, formulates.

[29:50]

And this first one is saying, okay, well, engage the breath thoroughly enough that the capacity to pay attention starts to come into being. And if you go back to what I was saying about Shikantaza, just sit and experience what comes into being. I mean, I think there's a very active question, like, well, does that require some deliberate preparation or not? How would you answer that from your own, as an experience? who exist, I have to have heard it. My other question is, Shikantaza, just sit and experience what's happening, right?

[30:56]

And I'm asking, does that require a deliberate preparation or not? And from your experience, yes? How would you formulate the deliberate preparation? I think it would be interesting the way they formulated there, the extent... bare awareness and consistent mindfulness. There are two parameters there. Enough that you just feel this bare awareness of the body, not a lot more than that you want to identify with it, but also enough energy that you can stay with it. And I feel like that's the decision that you can have with it. There can be a sort of complacency in sitting. You can still I know you're aware that there's a body but it's so easy to just move off into thought. And if there isn't some sort of decision that vigilance of some description is necessary, then it's hard to actually be with the experience.

[32:01]

Okay. Thank you. Anyone else? Let's go ahead, Brandon. I heard my questions from you actually. So he said to me about... at making a decision about thought and going off into thought. But we're also kind of familiar with the idea that the mind thinks, and the mind thinks as much as anything creates sounds. So I wonder how much decision we have, even if we notice that I've decided to follow a thought pattern, how much have I really decided to follow that thought pattern? What's your answer to your own question from your experience in doing science? Okay. Can you see how when you frame it like that, what's your answer from your experience?

[33:09]

It sort of draws you back to this notion of practice being an experiential process. You can formulate all sorts of magnificent and well-read ideas, but if there's no linkage to that, what's going on for you, I mean, they're just, in some ways, they're not so helpful. You know, it's much more helpful to keep linking your processes of thinking back, your ideas about practice, back to your experience of practice. Well, that's how the experience happens. but then letting that inform your ideas about practice. Like saying to you, well, what happens when you do zazen? And how is it? Does that work? What do you do?

[34:10]

What happens? And what about that? Not to sit there analyzing and thinking about your practice, but... Satipatthana is saying, in developing an attentiveness and a noticing, you can be informed in a way that can guide how you're practicing, how you're making your effort, and how you're relating to what comes up. I remember sitting in Sushi one time and hearing what I told him she was teaching. talked about, one of the students was saying, he had been talking about Shikantaza, that it was actually a very, that if you weren't actually, that there's some right effort to sit in Shikantaza actually was somewhat of a difficult thing to actually achieve, or not even achieve, but to actually arrive at.

[35:20]

And it reminds me of times where I think that I might have tasted that have been when I actually explore surrender. Like whether it be to the sound of the balloon chase. Usually I'm not able to do it to my whole experience of all the senses. But if I choose one thing, like for me sound is a big thing where I like to just open up to sound and follow it and get myself to to the sound and a lot of times to the location, or feel into where sound comes from, where it is, what it is, in my experience. And from that, I'll find that I can kind of all of a sudden end up at a place of bare awareness where sound is coming from. And what that brings up for me is that, you know, in learning theory,

[36:24]

They say there's different primary ways we learn, and then some people are more visual, some people are more auditory, and some people are more tactile. And to me it says something about just the way we're constructed, the way we're wired as a person. Certain modes of experience are more accessible to us. And for some people it's auditory, and for some people it's visual, and for some people it's tactile. And I would say knowing that about yourself, not to say one's better than the other, just to say, how is it for you? What's a skillful means in working with who you are? And as you pay attention, you discover something. So in that example of opening to the auditory, And by the definition I was offering, and I am saying it's in contrast to both of these learned and well-read persons, the example I'm offering is that the unformulated sensation is the internal.

[37:45]

So you open to the sensation that arises at the sense object, the sense door, auditory. And then, usually, you know, there's degrees of formulation, you know? I mean, you can have an auditory experience and just formulate a sense of space, you know? You know, that sign was over there, and that's not even, you know, a formulation. That's just an without words, creating a sense of space. Or you can say, oh, that sounds like a blue jay. It's a juvenile blue jay. It's just squawking because it's a time of year when they're starting to whatever. So they can be whole degrees of formulation. And I'm saying that's creating an external. And these can actually arise and cease, maybe in a way...

[38:53]

I mean, is there a place where they ever meet? The internal and external? Yeah, sure. I mean, when we're quite settled, you know, we can notice, you know, there's kind of this, this relatedness, you know, signed, squawk of a blue jay, you know? And you see, oh, this gives birth to this. Can that be called Shikantaza? I would say the heart of Shikantaza is that this is neither something we're endeavoring to make happen or trying to stop happening. We're just being fully present for it as it comes into being.

[39:59]

And I would also say, very interestingly, when you look at the Satipatthana Sutta, you see, oh, there's a very... Because the Satipatthana Sutta says, notice when it comes into being, notice when it goes out of being. It doesn't say, make it happen. It doesn't say, stop it from happening. But it does say, and it feels to me like we have to... So I have to keep coming back to noticing from being lost in the formulation. Yeah. And is that shikantazo? No. And that's why I would say shikantazo is a koan. You're constantly, I mean, if you have a fixed idea, it's this. You've sort of disconnected from an alive process. And I would say that the Sadi Bhutan is also trying to create this alive process in your sitting. You know, that sitting is an alive process.

[41:02]

It's not some, here's a formulation, you're trying to impose on your being. And then you just plug away with what you're trying to impose. It's much more, you're refining what it is to open up to what's happening. Well, let me read that refrain again. So you have the instruction, then you have the refrain. In this way, in regard to the body, she abides contemplating the body as sensation, contemplating the body as formulation. Abides contemplating it when both are coming up. Abides noticing it coming up, abides noticing it going away. mindful that there is a body to the extent for bare knowledge and continuous mindfulness.

[42:12]

So that this noting the body helps to create a basis for attentiveness and awareness. And then the next formulation is to, can you keep that kind of physicality as you go through all the activities of the day. And then it lists them, you know, when you're walking, when you're standing, when you're turning, you know, when you're using the toilet. And I would say this is one of the basic practices, you know, to stay in your body as best you can. And so in Zen we emphasize posture. If you think about it, we emphasize physicality in a whole number of ways.

[43:17]

When we enter a space, we do it intentionally with our feet, with our hands, with our whole body. We bow before we sit down. We bow when we stand up. We bow when we meet somebody. ways of connecting to the moment. We bow before we go into the toilet, the bath. It's just the same thing. In this way, in regard to the body, abiding, contemplating the body internally, externally, both internally and externally, abiding the nature of arising, contemplating the nature of passing away, both arising and passing away. A mindfulness of body. Necessary for bare knowledge and continuous mindfulness. And abiding independent, not clinging to anything in the world.

[44:18]

That too is how in the body to regard contemplating the body. It's like letting the physicality of being be the anchor, and then everything else just comes and goes. And then, yes? What did you say about the body as anchor? Is there also a feeling, this body is not me, but his body kind of an object of concentration? Well, it's not exactly an object of concentration to be specific, but it's an object of awareness, helping to sustain the practice of awareness.

[45:30]

And we could do that identifying with it or not? I think it's my question, is there a way to do that without identifying with it? Well, it's saying, you know, to use the formulation I was using, when it's a sensation, there's just sensation. There's no formulation, me, you know? And then at other times there is a formulation, like, I mean, there can be a physical formulation of us in a room. Someone told me once Thich Nhat Hanh was leading a trip, I think it was a trip to Vietnam, and he paired people up and he said, here's the way I want you to think. I want you to think that you have two bodies. This is one body and this is your other body. And take care of both of your bodies. What a beautiful formulation. I'm not one body, I'm two bodies. So it's a formulation, right, whether it's a singularity, and I think we do.

[46:41]

I think we sometimes have a sense of us. Okay. And then the anatomical parts. I'll read it. Again, monks, reviewing the body from the soles of the feet to the top of the hair, enclosed in skin, with as many kinds of impurity thus. In the body, there's hair heads, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, liver, heart, diaphragm, spleen, lungs, bowels, mesentery. What is mesentery? Thank you. contents of the stomach, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, grease, spittle, snot, oil on the joints, and urine.

[47:50]

Just as though there were a bag with an opening at both ends, full of many sorts of grains, such as hill grain, rice grain, beans, millet, and white rice, A man with good eyes were to open it and review it as such. This is a hill of rice, beans, etc. So should one view the body. In this way, contemplating the body, internally, externally, both internally and externally, abides in the nature of what's arising, of what's passing away in the body. Mindful that there is a body is established in him to the extent of a bare knowledge of mindfulness. And here's what I think the point of it all is. abides independent, not clinging. This is to how to regard the body. We cling to a body image. I have a beautiful body, I have an ugly body or whatever, but some sense of our own physicality, so just to break it into components.

[48:59]

The body begins to be broken down into wrists and parts. Maybe not all of those things and things we consider as being part of the body that we embrace. Yeah. This part here is an inter... Then this one and the next couple. They have an interesting flavor of how in... early Buddhism, non-attachment was established. It was considered to be, like when I was being trained, that was kind of like the first thing. Okay, impermanence, loathsomeness of the body, parts of the body. Then a similar strategy continues. Again, monks, he reviews the same body however it is placed, however it is disposed, as consisting of elements.

[50:08]

Earth element, water element, fire element, air element. Just as a skilled butcher or his apprentice who had killed a cow would set it up into pieces, thus he reviews the body. Again, to create this notion of nothing to cling to, nothing to become attached to. And then the next one is the decay of a corpse. You said non-clinging and independent? Yes. Your awareness is independent? No, the sense of non-attachment, not dependent upon. The non-attachment is independent. Not dependent upon... your sense of how this is. Yes. So they're closely related. You're not attached to it and your experience is independent of whether you think it's good or bad or whatever.

[51:15]

And you could say these things have degrees. You could say, well, what you're trying to do is not obliterate your sense of a beautiful or ugly body. but just not be so hooked by it that when it comes up, it's taken as an absolute truth. Because you see, as mindfulness develops, what you're really trying to do is notice these traits. Oh, a persistent thought for me is that my body is beautiful. Persistent thought for me is that my body is ugly. Or I alternate equally between both notions. And then the next section is on decay of a corpse. Again, monks, as though he were to see a corpse thrown on charnel ground, one, two, or three days old, bloated, livid, oozing matter, being devoured by crows, hawks, vultures, dogs, jackals, and other kinds of worms, a skeleton with flesh and bones held together by sinews,

[52:32]

a fleshless skeleton smeared with blood held together by sinews, a skeleton without flesh and blood held together by sinews, disconnected bones scattered in all directions, bones bleached white, bones heaped up more than a year old, bones decaying and crumbling. He compares this body thus. This body too is of the same nature, and it will be like that. It is not exempt from that fate. So when I was training in Thailand, this was considered to be a kind of fundamental practice, contemplation of the decay of the body. Some of it struck me as interesting that it doesn't appear much in the Zen literature.

[53:33]

I don't think I've ever read... I don't think I've ever read anywhere in the Zen literature references to this practice. The Vietnamese Zen is interesting because if you just look at the geographical location, it's close to the part of Southeast Asia where The other tradition is strong. I think of Vietnamese and Zen as having some, some of both, you know, like if you go the whole way over to Japan, you see almost none of this. And then if you go next door to Thailand or Burma or Cambodia, you see this, this is the fundamental practice. And I think Vietnamese and sort of has, includes them both. And you can see that in his teachings too.

[54:34]

And maybe we could say that in this tradition we're relying more on an awareness that senses the body as experience and that senses the body's energy. And in that kind of engagement, discover... discover there isn't something there to grasp, you know, to become attached to, to cling to, to give rise to attraction and aversion. Okay? Then the next section is called Feelings.

[55:39]

It comes from the word Vedana, and it isn't described so well in the sutra, but I think Vedana, there's an interesting distinction between Vedana and emotion. You know, Vedana is the feeling what you might think of as the unformulated feeling that then finds reference in the world, finds reference in our own psychological being, starts to create a story, starts to create, out of its psychological reference, formulated emotion. And then not to say the story becomes before the emotion, sometimes the emotion and then the story. So usually there's some interplay between Vedana, story, and emotion.

[56:50]

And this is... It's funny, in his commentary on Leo says, this is an easy practice. I never find it an easy practice. Because the mind is so quick in creating the story and the emotion, you know. Sometimes going backwards is helpful, you know. Asking yourself, well, what started all this? You know, and then you realize, oh, well, the tone of that person's voice or the content of what they said impacted me and I had a feeling, there was a feeling arising that gave birth to this story and this emotion, or this array of emotions. So the practice is, can you notice pleasant, unpleasant or neutral feeling?

[57:57]

Can you notice pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral when it comes into being, when it's there, when it's gone, when it's going out of being? Can you cultivate this kind of matter-of-factness? This comes, it sticks around, and then it goes away. Sometimes it's pleasant, sometimes it's unpleasant, sometimes it's neutral. And then, so that's the first qualification, the first categorization, pleasant, unpleasant, neutral. And then the second categorization is worldly and unworldly. And something like...

[59:00]

What it triggers, to put it in one kind of language, is about the world according to me and the likes and dislikes of that. What it triggers is the agendas of self. Or what it triggers is the agendas of awakening. So worldly and unworldly, the word for unworldly here, it translates a little bit like renunciation. It's a similar root. And so sometimes it's translated as more that which pertains to awakening. So you might say worldly or spiritual maybe be another kind of term that we would use. So noticing, well, what got triggered in that experience? in that wonderful way when you can have an experience, it can even be a negative experience, but it teaches you something about practice, the formulation that comes up around it.

[60:32]

maybe there's an unpleasant experience, and in that moment, instead of grasping, you let it stay more simple, and you let it show you the nature of how things come up, cause and effect, and then pass away. You can notice an unpleasant experience. You can notice how it agitates the mind. You can notice how it creates an inclination towards certain emotions that are part of your own emotional patterns, maybe create certain associated stories. And when there's awareness, all that can be enormously instructive. You think, hmm, yeah. I don't think that's the first time I've done that. So that's the other distinction that's made at this point.

[61:38]

Notice the basic feelings, pleasant, unpleasant, neutral, worldly, unworldly. Notice their kind of visceral impact as a sensation or experience. And notice how they create formulations. And again, as a matter of fact as possible. Okay, these things come, these things go. That refrain is always in there at the end of the admonition, the insightful admonition. It comes, it goes. Important to notice. Sometimes when your mind's being strongly agitated by something, and it seems so real, sometimes it's helpful to notice that even in your pronounced agitation, there are also other experiences.

[62:53]

No? you're walking to the baths, you're really upset about something, and then your eye catches a squirrel playing with a leaf. For 20 seconds, you just notice that, and then it's back to business. Okay. What was I mad at? So that's Felix's. physical feelings, and then mind. And then the formulation of mind is desire, anger, delusion, greed, hate, and delusion. And then spacious mind or contracted mind. So noticing, you know, Is there desire present or not?

[63:57]

Is there aggression or anger present or not? Is there delusion present or not? And then other interesting formulations. He translates it here as contracted or expanded. You know, that sense where your mind is opening. And sometimes that's part of what comes with the auditory. You know, you get a sense of, a bigger sense of space. Sometimes, and then contracted or not, surpassable or not. Is the quality fully present or partially present?

[65:02]

If you pay attention, you can notice, especially in zazen, you can notice that you're quite saddled, but you're not completely saddled. You're there, you're saddled, but it's not like... I mean, often it's just a reference to your other experiences. You could see that you could be more saddled. Surpassable or unsurpassable. And then concentrated or not concentrated. Okay. So we're going to finish at five. How long did we go? Or should we stop now? Everybody has to have a bath. Let me do this. Let me scoot ahead. and give you the whole thing. So that's the state of mind.

[66:09]

And then the final one is that you've cultivated enough settledness, enough perceptiveness, enough matter-of-factness that now you can just, you, the person you are, with the emotional traits, the physical traits, the constituents of your body and mind can be the learning lab. They can be an illustration of the way of practice and the way of liberation. And then the first thing to notice, is the hindrance, what hindrance, what hinders that matter-of-factness, what hinders that clarity, what hinders that perceptiveness. And then it's the same, it's greed, hate and delusion, and then it's restlessness and worry and heaviness and drowsiness.

[67:15]

And then again you would just look at the matter-of-factly. Okay, that's what comes, that's what goes. You know, you might notice what kind of circumstances do one get triggered more for you than another. Thank you. Without thought, you notice when it comes, you notice when it goes. You're just watching the human condition unfold. Just so happens you are the human condition. And then the next thing to notice is the aggregates. A little bit. Form, the arising, the arising formulation, like the sign, the sight, the smell, the idea. the Vedana that comes up with it, the way it's perceived.

[68:23]

You know, when those two come together, what's the perception? And then, from there, what's the impulse to engage, and what's the engagement that's created on a level of consciousness, skanga? Skanda covers both the formulation of the mental construct and the mental construct. So formulating it and its being. And then the last one is consciousness. So enough matter-of-factness to start watching all that. And you might think that's exotic, but actually you're doing it all the time. No. You're noticing what you're seeing, then you're noticing how it generates associated things. And then to take that down to another level of granularity, noticing the different senses, being attentive to them, just as someone was saying, you know, sitting zazen and just noticing sound, just noticing sight, just noticing smell.

[69:41]

And then noticing the factors. Okay, what supports awakening? And then the last one is noticing the foundations of the path, noticing the Four Noble Truths. Okay, so we have a couple of minutes. If you have any comments or questions about that. And then the same pattern goes through them all. Each one of those, notice when it's there, notice when it's not there. Just kind of an overall question, and it goes back to a statement you made at the beginning, talking about how that's, if I practice with this Sattva Thana Sutta and how it instructs us, there's some expectation

[70:46]

of realizations that will happen if I practice. And I contrast that with when I look at Dogen and a lot of the Zen writings that you kind of enter into a monastic practice with little or no expectation of what will happen when you practice. And to me, I'm just trying to reconcile those things that you were talking about. Can you help me here? Yeah. I think if you come at it with too fixed a notion in your mind, okay, this is what's going to happen, it sort of thwarts this experiential learning process, you know? It's like when we have an expectation, it thwarts and it hinders just being open to the experience and learning from the experience.

[71:48]

And I would say the formulation of the Satyapitana Sutra is saying, and you can come at this methodically so that you don't get stuck in your ideas as to what should be happening. And here's how you do it. Just start noticing your breath. Don't even try to control it or make it a certain way. Then notice your body. And then notice your feelings. And then notice your states of mind. And it has a formulation, it has a methodology. And to me that all that's preparatory before we come to the more complicated notions of, you know, hindrances, aggregates, sense fields, awakening factors. So the question about that is that it seems that there's a lot of detail in regard to things that will probably happen if you engage in this preparatory process.

[72:50]

And should I just, you know, never read that until my stuff starts to happen and then go back and see if it's similar? Or am I, you know, basically setting myself up with a psychological construct of what I'm going to inherit? if I go and do these preparatory exercises. And then, lo and behold, I had these experiences. And I'm like, yeah, but is my subconscious just bringing forth what I thought would happen through going through these preparatory exercises? You know what I mean? And will your subconscious bring forth? Well, yeah. It's a fairly detailed and complex description of what happens if you're going through these exercises of Would there be any danger in really digesting what might happen? Well, I have a couple of answers. And one answer is that part of the methodology of Zen is to construct an environment, whether it's sitting,

[74:01]

or it's an interactive environment that's engaging enough that it draws you out of just being stuck in your mind. It draws you into experience. Think of being a work leader. You think, oh, I'm going to be a work leader. It's going to be like this and this and this. But then you're just in it. Just doing what's next, you know, getting as many people as they need on cabins in the dining room and figuring out how this is going to happen and that's going to happen. And in the midst of the process, you've forgotten about me, the work leader. You're just in the throes of doing. And I would say that's very much the flavor. It feels like I'm, in the Satipatthana Sutta, almost like I'm reading a very detailed experience of a previous work leader.

[75:12]

And I'm wondering whether or not that's going to gene me in regard to what I experience as a work leader. If you think about it, the Satipatthana Sutta is about process. The Satipatthana Sutta does not say, And you're going to have these many angry thoughts, these many desiring thoughts, and these many confused thoughts. The Satipatthana Sutta just says, wherever the heck comes along, notice it. So its emphasis, its particularity, its detail is about process. Well it says you can become aware of this. I mean it's talking about the process and the potential of human consciousness. Yes. But in an interesting way, it's both prescriptive, but only about the process. It's not prescriptive about what will arise. It's prescriptive about how to relate to it. So is the description of the effects that's in the sutra, is that just kind of intended as encouragement then?

[76:26]

I mean, otherwise, why wouldn't it just say, first follow your breath, then notice your body, and then just leave it at just purely, you know, directions? Do you understand my question? Are you asking why does it add in the secondary part where it says, and then this is what will be noticed? Yeah. Yeah, that's a good question. It's... it's helping to orientate you. It's a little bit like saying, okay, now do this. And when you're doing this, watch out for this. Watch out how what arises can be related to. Is that like if you pass the red bar and you've gone too far? No, it's more like If you pass, as you're passing the red barn, you'll notice the barn's red.

[77:31]

More like that, you know? It seems like Michael's question is pointing toward also relating to the teacher. Relating to the teacher? That the, I mean, this is, is this a self-help book? Yes. Or is it good to talk about it? These ideas we might get off on can be reeled back in. When we include the internal and the external, you know? Buddhism doesn't give to the notion of self an abiding, singular, separate being, right? So in our interacting, in our dependent co-arising, of course there will be opportunities to engage and explore and discuss.

[78:44]

And certainly, usually classically when this is taught, you would, like if you did this on retreat, like say you did a 30-day or a 90-day retreat, you would go and see a teacher. And there's some styles of retreat where it's very methodical. You do this until you got to this point. And you just keep doing it. And then when you get to this point, then you move to this practice. So you're very methodical in that way. A lot of the Burmese style, where you go into quiet retreat and not so much else, that's a lot of the style. Some of the Thai style, where you're more living in community and sangha and abiding with the vinya and things like that, it wouldn't be so singular. A little bit like how we do things.

[79:47]

You know, there's this steady theme at the base of our practice, All sorts of stuff happens. And of course, interacting with the teacher would be an ingredient in that. Interaction with your peers and interacting with your elders is also part of that. Yes, go ahead. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. There isn't any. Just this notice of come and notice of go. we were talking about before when they asked is this a self-help book and you said yes and you know it does talk a lot about process and it's also one of my favorite books that you recommended but I also find a lot of descriptions in there that to me seem to be pointing to different awarenesses and realizations that people will have that seem to go beyond just process and see see whatever ends up being for you it's almost like

[80:58]

different types of awarenesses will be cultivated, different abilities to sense other people's, as it seems, emotions is no longer other people's emotions. Now you can, you know, there's some sort of connection to that. You know, this is an experience that a person may or may not have, but it presents the idea that this might be a realization that you have in the future. And it seems that it is a self-help book that goes through. Here's how we set up the preparatory. And then here is what we've experienced before. You know what I mean? Here's how we set up the preparatory. Right. So you've got the... And here's what we've experienced before. Right. For instance, you set up the preparation for how we practice. Then we practice this way. And then when I'm experiencing what... is you know a formulation of self and other all of a sudden i'm not so um aware of being self and other i'm aware of the other person in the sense that it's not separated from me and curious where so you know all of these things come with um a description of what will um

[82:20]

come about or has come about before through building. But only to this degree, Michael, that essentially what it's saying, it's saying in this modality, awareness, mindfulness expresses itself like this. It doesn't go into a particularity. It doesn't say and then you'll have this many angry thoughts or this many confused thoughts or it just says When this is held with modality, a matter-of-factness, a sense of space, a sense of non-grasping start to become apparent. So when you start to have this sense of non-grasping becoming apparent, is this something that was inherent in the process and was going to happen because of the process? Or is it because you read the book and you knew that you were going to have a sense of non-grasping and then, lo and behold, you had it?

[83:26]

Well, there's a good answer. Well, but to me, it would be in contrast to what Dogen sometimes writes about in regard to entering into the moment without any expectation. And to me, this is about putting some element of expectation into the next moments? Even though we all have our own individual traits, there is an array of factors that influence how those traits are experienced when they arise. And that array of factors is the commonality that this process is trying to address. And it's seeing, and you can become astute and aware and skillful about how those factors come into play with the particularities of your

[84:41]

way of being. So there is something over here that's being acknowledged and then there's some in terms of the array of factors that come to bear on individual consciousness with its own unique traits. So we can address how are these traits being related to, but it's not saying, you know, these traits are going to be bigger or smaller or whatever. It's actually quite wonderfully saying these traits will simply be the content of the mindfulness. Here's the process, and these traits will be the content. And when these traits are held in mindfulness, It will feel like this.

[85:43]

Time to go? Okay, time to go. Thank you very much. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[86:22]

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