This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Well, thank you for a great class yesterday. I appreciated all the questions and the comments and... your willingness to play, and I hope we'll have more of that today. That's my intention. And thank you again, Reverend Greg, for asking me to teach this class. So what I am intending to do with our time today is I'm going to do a brief summary of yesterday, and then I want to ask... Whatever questions you have, if anything feels unclear from yesterday, I'd love to hear what that is and see what we can do about that.

[01:04]

Then we're going to talk about skillful means and conflict. And then my plan is for us to have lots of time to practice. So hopefully you brought your worksheet, even though I forgot to remind you this morning at WorkCircle. And... and see if you might want to come up and take the seat with me, and we'll practice together on whatever your conflict is. And as I said yesterday, I will play you or your conflict partner, whatever will be most helpful. So just turn that in the back of your mind, but I won't put pressure on anybody. It's purely voluntary. So yesterday, we talked about what does meeting conflict with compassion mean? And the overall understanding or teaching that I have about it from experience and observation is that it means inclusiveness.

[02:16]

It means that when we're in conflict, I include... my experience and my feelings and my perceptions. And I also am curious and include yours. And our shared purpose or intention is to really understand each other. And it's from that place that we hopefully find a way to address our conflict, hopefully resolve it, or we may realize, you know what, we need to live with this conflict. because we just have really different views. No problem. No conflict. So that is the frame I would like to continue using for the class. And then we talked about one of my favorite topics, and you guys got an A-plus for coming up with examples of... spiritually bypassing conflict.

[03:19]

And one of the things I learned from you yesterday is that it probably would have been helpful if I had defined what I meant by that a little bit more. And what I mean by that is when one applies a teaching in a way that enables avoiding a conflict. or sweeping it under the rug. And the examples you came up with were, everything's empty, there is no conflict. Or, I practice compassion, I wouldn't want to add to this person's suffering by saying, you know what, there's an issue that I feel we need to address. So we talked about that. And then we talked about... the teachings to conflict and that emptiness and understanding that, you know, as we experience in meditation, feelings, thoughts, perceptions come up and they pass and they need to be taken care of or attended to when they call out to us.

[04:33]

And that's our practice with conflict. And one thing I mentioned in working with Asanga at City Center that needed some facilitation around conflict is I was really both amazed and moved by how, you know, my role primarily was to help the people in conflict really understand each other's experience and point of view and feelings and notice how they were positioned. And when they understood each other and they understood kind of their perceptions were incomplete, they were able to resolve their conflict. It wasn't quite as neat a process as it might sound, but ultimately they became closer. And that's the promise that conflict holds. And my view of conflict is that it is an opportunity for because something wants to happen.

[05:35]

There's different views. You've changed. Your conflict partner has changed. You have a different way of approaching a situation. And so you bump heads, and there's the opportunity to understand each other and hopefully get closer and attend to a relationship that needs to change or a difficulty that needs to be resolved. And we also, yes. Reverend Greg. Yeah, I have a question, curiosity around you use the language, there's something that wants to change. Or happen, yes. Something that wants to happen. I get that. And then you also use the language something that needs to be resolved. So there's a tension or a dynamic between doing and non-doing or between doing and allowing.

[06:44]

Yes. When do you, I mean, it's a theoretical question which I don't really care for myself. So maybe I'm not looking for an answer. Oh, that's great. Maybe how do you explore when something needs to be fixed and when to trust fixing, healing? That happens. I've seen so many times, actually, people staying in the valley, they keep bowing to each other and, by gosh, And I don't know how that happened. So, yeah, when do you need to fix things? Or how do you explore the sort of tension of when to fix it and when to trust healing? I love that question. And maybe not surprisingly, my answer would be by paying attention.

[07:55]

Because when something wants to happen... it doesn't necessarily mean that the response is to resolve it. It means to explore what is it that wants or needs to happen. I have an issue with you. My feelings feel hurt. We have a disagreement. Maybe we just have a personality conflict and we keep running into each other. And so the first... is really to acknowledge that together and say, well, what is this about? You know, how are you feeling? I'd like to let you know how I'm feeling and what does that tell us? What does it point to? And I've seen situations exactly what you're talking about, Greg, where you get that out into the open and somehow the conflict melts or resolves itself.

[08:57]

And then sometimes you get that out in the open and there needs to be some pretty deep discussion and agreements and follow-up. So I think it really depends on what is pointed to as you flesh out what's the problem, what's the conflict. Yeah. But that's a great question, and I was talking about yesterday, quoting my late teacher Darlene Cohen, you can't just whip out a policy and say this is how I'm going to deal with conflict. It is, I think, one of the most alive practices there is, and it's completely dynamic. And so the more you discuss and engage and reveal, the more there is to notice and respond to. So maybe we'll have both examples when we start to practice a little bit.

[10:01]

And yes, any other questions or comments? It seems to me that often the reaction to a situation of conflict, sort of friction between people, is to say, well, that person, it's not worth my time or my energy to deal with this. this problem, this conflict, I'm just going to exclude that person from my relationship. So ignore them, stay away from them, take another path, or encounter them, whatever. So how do you make me you as a delusional person? Thank you. Oh, I'm self-identified. It's okay. It's okay. How do you go from someone who might naturally say, oh, this isn't worth my time, this isn't worth my energy, to someone who says, no, I'm going to do something about this, or at least I'm going to try and think about this.

[11:13]

So maybe there isn't nothing. Well, the first step is embedded in your question, which is you need to know what your tendency is. And in fact, the last thing I wanted to just review from yesterday is we had talked about how important it is to know what your style, what your orientation is in general, and especially in conflict. And being that we're here to practice Zen together, I use the classic examples of or approaches of greed, hate, and delusion. I would say it's a hate type, aversion, who would say, well, this isn't worth my time. I'm just going to cut this person out. So I think that it takes some internal practice of really becoming intimate with your style or your tendency and asking yourself, does this work for me?

[12:16]

So we're all practitioners. Does this fulfill my vows as a practitioner? vows of compassion, vows of speaking and acting in ways that are beneficial and not causing harm. Some harm is subtle. And really knowing yourself, you know, taking that backward step. And then really setting an intention, how do I want to practice with conflict, for example? do I want to sweep it under the rug, cut someone out, avoid that individual? I would also observe, is that an effective way of dealing with conflict? Because my experience is that anything that I sweep under the rug, magically, it goes from being like a cockroach to a mouse to an elephant.

[13:24]

So it generally backfires and makes itself known and becomes something I need to deal with. And usually it's in a much messier way than if I had dealt with it in the first place. At least that's my experience. So, yes, Beth. As an aversive. Really? Yeah. I would like to make a distinction between sweeping things under the rug and allowing for cooling off periods. Very important. Because, at least for most aversives I know, if we take things on in the heat of the moment, we do a lot more damage than if we give them space. think it's very important to take time to you know attend to your feelings and your reactions and sort them out and and know how you want to engage and I think that's very different than sweeping something under the rug because there is actually a choice there is I'm going to take a little time I mean I do that as a delusion type because I can I can get

[14:49]

pissed off myself, you know, being from Brooklyn. I know it's shocking. And whereas sweeping something under the rug or cutting someone out, you know, you're kind of not planning on dealing with it again. So I think there's a pretty significant difference there. So I would love to see some intention around doing things differently and seeing how that goes, and usually there's fear and anxiety that is underneath, it's not worth my time, I'm just going to cut this person out. Even if I'm a hot-headed hate type, I think most of us have some fear around confrontation and dealing with conflict. Sometimes a way, you know, Various people paper it over is by being overwhelming and coming at someone with anger. And then you don't really need to deal with them.

[15:50]

So that's how I would respond to that question. Yes? Absolutely. We talked about that yesterday. Yeah, some conflicts, you know, one might feel really comfortable... addressing, and some you might want to just sweep under the rug, and some you might be a kind of person where you have a dynamic where you come on hot and heavy. So it's one of the things that makes it interesting and so dynamic, and it's very relational. So if you have a conflict with one type of person, you're going to deal with them one way, and another type of person brings other parts of you out. Other questions, comments, anything... You'd like clarified from yesterday? Yeah, Heather and then Tanya. Just briefly, what comes up for me in hearing the different comments and questions is meeting conflict with compassion and wisdom.

[16:55]

That discernment process of what's space and what's avoidance and or knowing how to to say, like, I need to just take stock on where I'm at with what's going on, and look at my own feelings, or it's like, I feel like these threads of wisdom in the midst of compassion for oneself or each other. So maybe I should change the name of the workshop, too, Meeting Conflict with Compassion and Wisdom. Yeah, I think that that discernment is a companion to wisdom, definitely, and as well as skillful means, which we'll talk about in a couple of minutes. Tanya? You gave an example yesterday about your conversation with other school.

[17:57]

So you couldn't agree on something, and then you said, well, I would like to hear your perspective. Mm-hmm. In this case, yes. But see, you hear the perspective, and you just not agree with this. It just doesn't go away. Well, that is great. Because what you do is you say, well, what I would say, I don't want to say you, is, okay, I would, you know, say, okay, here's what I think you're saying. And then I would say, you know, we have a real disagreement here. Here's my vision for the Abbott's Garden, which I hear is a hot topic around here at Tassajara. And here's yours. And I wonder if there are some other ways we can approach resolving this. Or do we need to go to Greg and Linda?

[19:00]

Oh, okay. Higher, higher. So what I... One of the ways in some situations you can approach conflict a little bit differently is to say, you know, can we talk about the purpose of the Abbott's Garden and how it is designed now? And if we are going to redesign it, what's going to serve that purpose? You know, what do the Abbott's need and what do the students need and what does Tassajara need? And the purpose of that is to continue letting STEAM out of the disagreement and to bring it to a level that adds the dimension of non-personal, of not, this is your opinion and this is my opinion. And in a disagreement like this, ultimately you might need to go to, I don't know, the Abbott's Council or something. Sometimes if your peers in a structured organizational situation

[20:05]

and you cannot agree, or one person is not willing to sort of let go of what they want, then you may need to just go to a different authority. And if there isn't one, you know, then you call me. Or you send carrier pigeon, depending on whether it's practice period or not. Other questions, comments? I love your questions. They are so on point, and I feel like really we're co-creating this workshop together. I was kind of chuckling to myself earlier today because I thought, you know, teachers without students aren't teachers. We're just like, you know, crazy people talking to ourselves. So thank you for being here. So I wanted to talk a little bit about Skillful Means and And then, as I said, I want to have more time for discussion and then time for inviting people up to play with me.

[21:09]

So the skillful means I wanted to focus on really have to do with the Eightfold Noble Path. And is everybody familiar with that? Okay. And I wanted to start with Right View. And for our purposes, what do you think Right View would be? for approaching conflict with compassion and wisdom. Curiosity, yes. Also, we talked about how win-lose, you know, I'm right, you're wrong, is not so helpful in resolving conflict. So right view is remembering our practice is about being... of benefit, not causing harm. And if I want to impose my view or my will or my position on you, that's actually an act of violence, and it causes harm.

[22:16]

So right view and the embodiment of right view, the practice of right view, to Greg's point, is listening. It's curiosity. It is remembering, okay, I am practicing including you in this conflict that we're having and looking at your view and my view. And then we talked about yesterday, there's other viewpoints. There's a viewpoint of our relationship. What does our relationship need, right? What wants to happen? If it is, I see often with organizations that are in a period of change, I mentioned this yesterday, that often that comes out in conflicts that people on staff or who volunteer with the organization have. They almost are expressing the change that needs to happen in relationship with each other. So if they're dealing with conflicts, looking at what's the need of the organization?

[23:18]

What are we expressing or enacting? And our conflict is really, really important. Absolutely. Honesty? Well, that's a... Does anyone have any other thoughts about Right View? Because that's such a great segue into Right Speech. I mean, and we could spend the whole class and several more talking about Right View. So I'm just doing a little overview. And there are plenty of books in the library on the subject. And you can always have practice discussion with Greg and Linda. Leslie, some of the other visiting teachers to, you know, play with these ideas and practices a bit more. So I wanted to talk a bit about right speech, and Linda, you're teaching a class or a workshop on it starting? Okay, so I will help lay a foundation for that.

[24:18]

So I like to frame right speech for the purpose of such a practical class as this in how Thich Nhat Hanh teaches it, which is really four questions to ask. Is it true? Is it kind? Is it timely? And is it helpful? So true, kind, timely, and helpful. Something might be true, or I may view it as my truth, And it might not actually be helpful to the situation or the conflict to express it. It might not be timely to express it. So I need to look at what is true in my experience. And again, kind of...

[25:21]

intertwined with right view what is the truth for the person that i'm going about to have a conversation with because don't you find in conflict often views of what's true are quite different so holding what's true lightly and being open to other views is really important um is it kind i work with um an organization that develops leadership, and one of their ground rules for meetings and discussions is kind, not nice, which I really love. What do you think that means? Kind, not nice. Yes, Caitlin. It might be saying something that the other person doesn't want to hear. It might be uncomfortable to say, but it's coming from a place of compassion. There's a certain feeling in how it's how spoken or received, I think of nice as being like, I just want to say things that sound flowery.

[26:26]

I don't want to step on any toes. I don't want to make anybody mad at me or say anything uncomfortable. Yes, Steph and then Tanya. What comes to mind for me is, like Caitlin said, this conversation, often being kind is saying something that's really painful to hear. It's not pleasant. It doesn't feel good. But speaking one's truth is often the kindest act or like I think of this term that Pema Chodron uses and it's a near enemy of Karuna or compassion, idiot compassion. And it's For example, not wanting to give a child a necessary vaccine because it hurts them, and they cry when they get the vaccine. So that might be being nice, is not giving them the vaccine, but what is kind is to actually give the treatment. So even though it doesn't feel good in the present always, it's being kind is often the capacity to have a larger view on what's actually useful.

[27:30]

Yeah. Agreed. Tanya? You may as well. It's... I think the intention is different. Nice is being socially appropriate and wanting to be liked. And kind becomes kind. Greg? Kind recognizes connection and nice risks separation. Yeah, it's a great definition. Yeah, kind doesn't really get to the heart of what's happening. I mean, excuse me, nice doesn't get to the heart of what's happening. And it is about making the other person feel okay, kind of the status quo, keeping things comfortable, as opposed to, you know, absolutely, Steph and Caitlin and also Tanya, Greg, maybe bringing something up that's going to be really painful, probably for both of you.

[28:31]

But it will help surface what needs to happen and what wants to happen. And ultimately, you know, my hope for dealing with conflict is always there'll be a closer relationship. And I do see that over and over and over. So is it true? Is it kind? Is it help? Yes. Is it necessary? Necessary. Isn't it one of them? Well, one of them is, is it helpful, which I think might be a close cousin? Yeah. I co-lead a LGBT group that has its roots, was founded by a Zen practitioner and a Vipassana practitioner, and the Vipassanas are always saying, you Zen people, you have so many lists. That's what I say. We all have lists.

[29:32]

That's right. That's right. Now I lost my train of thought. Oh, okay. So that's okay. So is it helpful? Is it going to serve the relationship, the conflict? And is it timely? It may be... True and kind and helpful. What happens if it's absolutely the wrong time? Usually kind of blows up and then you have another little sub-conflict to deal with. And I wanted to actually give an example of this because I don't know how many years ago it was, but I went to, it was after I was ordained, and I went to my first Soto Zen Buddhist Association meeting. And I was feeling, very good about myself, apparently, and they were talking about organizational development. And I apparently raised my hand and talked for longer than I realized.

[30:40]

And so when I drove back with my friend and I, she said, you know, I think you were praising self above others. And really gave me some difficult feedback. And I felt very embarrassed because here I am a coach and I work on organizational development. And I, you know, I protested a little bit and then I realized she was right. You know, and what was underneath that, and we talked about it, was I was anxious. You know, I was not in a monastic situation. I was a lay person. doing priest training with my teacher. And I felt like I needed to prove myself. And here was a realm I felt very confident in. And this friend, this Dharma sister, was really very skillful.

[31:41]

And she was kind. She said, you know, this is probably going to hurt. And it was her observation, what she felt was true. And it was helpful, even though I did not like it. And it was really embarrassing. And her timing was good because I had already had coffee. It was a morning. And we're very, you know, to this day, really, really good friends. And I trust her because I have to say she's had occasion once or twice since then to give me similar feedback. And so I appreciate that because I need that mirror, you know. So I also wanted to relate right speech, right view, and right action. To your point, you know, what action do I take when I'm in conflict with someone?

[32:42]

Do I say, oh, it's not worth it, you know, I'm just going to cut them out? Do I... Do I act with myself first, you know, discern what am I feeling, what needs to be attended to? And what is my action based on? Is it based on our practice and our vows and our commitment, which I think, you know, I love quoting the Dalai Lama, my religion is kindness, you know. I don't think it's kind to cut someone out when I have an issue with them. when there's a conflict between us, and there's a potential of resolving it and hopefully becoming more deeply connected. And the last thing I wanted to touch on was simply mindfulness, because mindfulness practice in conflict, dealing with it with compassion and wisdom, is essential, because the undercurrent

[33:44]

of what we've been talking about is being aware of what's happening with me, being aware of, I want to include this person. I want to include our relationship. If it's an organizational frame, what needs to happen? How do we take care of the organization? How is what's happening with the organization, with the work situation being reflected in our conflict? Because nothing happens in a vacuum. So questions, comments before I invite you to take a seat and play with me? Okay. So anybody have a conflict they would like to practice with me? Engage me with? Could be a current one that you're wrestling with or something you wish you'd done a little differently a while ago.

[34:50]

Should I give you a few minutes to reflect on it? What? Please. Actually, I want to really thank you for listening to the class. It was very, very helpful for me. It was very helpful because living here, living here, you can write to you or something. But just looking at the conflict with compassion, it gives different feeling. Oh, I'm so glad. Looking at it, you know, so not... You know, yeah, conflict is inevitable because we're human.

[36:00]

We're different. We have different opinions about things, different experiences, different perceptions. So, you know, no matter what we do, there's going to be conflicts. And I think to... turn toward them, and really use them well. It holds such potential. I really learn about myself when my friend gave me that feedback. I could have argued with her and there could have been a tremendous conflict. She had a conflict with how I was conducting myself and being open to that For me, it was really, really helpful. Yes? If I said it was too hard to touch, it means I have to come up here. So how long, you know, 10 after.

[37:03]

How long do you want? Well, let's just go. How long do you want to grill me? Let's just go. So give us context and tell me. So I... I feel like you are a very popular person. And your smoking makes smoking look popular. And I have a big problem with that. The shingy says, smoking is discouraged at Tassajara, but it doesn't say how. And frankly, I think I want to discourage it by... No, I won't say that. I've got feelings that are stronger than I know what to do with about this.

[38:10]

One question. Yeah. Are you my teacher? Are you a fellow practitioner? I'm a fellow practitioner. Okay. But I'm also the Tonto. I noticed. Well, I can't stop being the Tonto. Yeah, I get that you've got a lot of feeling about this. Yeah. You feel like my smoking is encouraging other people to smoke? You think people are picking up the habit? I know that people have picked up the habit. And I... Even one person is too much. Well, you know, people... I mean, I got to say, Greg, people are adults here, you know. And we come here to know the self. So... You know, I don't see where I should be responsible for people picking up smoking.

[39:11]

I mean, that's their choice, right? I'm not telling them to. Yep. That's right, Lisa. So are you telling me that you want me to just stop? You said you want to discourage it? I mean, I'm not sure what's happening here, Greg. nothing would make me happier than if you stopped smoking. But I don't think that's going to happen. It's a very powerful addiction. What I would like is for people to just use the smoker's area as a place to manage their addiction rather than a place to hang out, socialize, create clicks, and make it attractive.

[40:14]

Okay, so I think what you're asking me to do is smoke my cigarette and leave. That would be great. So do you observe me hanging out and like holding court? You started by saying I'm popular. I have to say that I had a reaction to that, but I'm... Trying to deal with it. Okay. Yes. Thanks for asking. Okay. That's my observation. And you think that that creates clicks here at Tassajara? Yes, I do. In fact, somebody once told me that high school, watching a documentary about... Smoking and drug use and peer pressure. They never experienced any of that in high school. But when they came to Tassajara, they experienced it.

[41:18]

Seriously? Seriously. I have been told that. That's not something I made up. I have been told. I came to Tassajara and I experienced peer pressure. Yeah. Well, I have to say, you know, smoking and talking goes together, you know. Yeah. Like peanut butter and jelly. Yeah. Gamacio and tofu. Yeah. So I feel like you're asking me to give up a lot. Yeah. That could be. I am remembering our practice's renunciation. Mm-hmm. Um... So I'm willing to do this, and I don't like it, I have to say, because I enjoy hanging out and socializing in the pit. So I think that I actually need help.

[42:20]

I'm here for you. Okay. I'd also really like to help you quit. Okay, one thing at a time. Okay. But I think that when I get there and the whole act is very relaxing, I think that I'm going to need some kind reminders. I mean, I am here to support Tassahara, and I don't want to create cliques in a high school kind of atmosphere. But I do, you know, I have to say I also have a lot of resistance to giving up, you know, truthfully a part of Tassajara that I really enjoy. I don't know what to do with that, Greg.

[43:25]

I feel like you're asking a lot. Could be. Yeah. So, I'm asking, could you be up for that? And now I have to say I feel kind of silly because we are, you know, talking about a sticky light with a match. Okay. I am willing to try. And I appreciate the conversation. And so I will try. And I need your support. You have my support. Okay. Okay. Gee, that went great. Well, we could play it another way. Yeah, I know we could, but maybe someone else wants to take a chance. Maybe it's somebody else's turn. Yeah. What's that? Anyone else? Oh, she said she has a question.

[44:27]

Oh, yes. Sorry. I'm going to call you back if there's no one else and give you a harder time. allow you to practice your conflict with compassion skills. Well, Greg brought something up that is very personal and I got a little bit defensive at the beginning and asked him to explain himself a little more. about the impact on Tassajara of having these kind of cliques. And it sounds like I'm someone who's viewed as a leader, and you use the word popular. So what I see as happening is Greg needing to present this and keep the discussion alive in a way that would encourage me to look beyond...

[45:30]

kind of addiction and gratification of holding court. Is that a fair assessment, Greg? And I guess I decided to be nice to you. Because I think in reality, probably there would have been a lot more defensiveness and hostility, and you probably would have needed to really stay with, you know, can we come back to why we're here? that we're practitioners, and can we look at the impact? I should have been a lot harder on you. Wow, I must be a little... You want to give someone a... That's right, yeah. Does that answer your question? Yeah, so your focus was... Was it your focus to make Greg feel better? Like, confronted you that what you do doesn't feel me... doesn't make me feel good. And I blame you for that. That's the way I do it. From me? Yeah, I mean, why should you feel obliged to satisfy Greg's demand?

[46:38]

You know, that's interesting, because what I heard was Greg bringing up this habit and practice, you know, in the context of its impact on Tassajara, that it was encouraging other people to smoke, that it was kind of... kind of encouraging cliques and, you know, exclusionary behavior. So that's what I heard. And what it reminded me of is, well, why am I here? Why are we here? I think it's both and. I think it's a lot of merit to what Tanji says too. She feels better. What's that? She feels better now. Yes? You know, just one thing... In that exchange, when Greg said to you, that you go up to the, it's no longer the pit, but the cave, or whatever it is now, I don't know where.

[47:40]

Did you say the cave? The cave. Land of Shea. Land of Shea. And deal with your addiction, and not socialize. And... Not only because I'd be surprised that someone, because telling someone to deal with your addiction is kind of a heavy, is a heavy thing to put on. Especially when you're not talking about something that is illegal. It's condoned by federal law. But then also that you didn't react to that as I would imagine. I mean, it was something sort of internalizing that. Rather than saying, you know, my addiction is my business or something like that. So, in a way, one could say nicely that you were being nice. One might say kindly you were doing something else.

[48:44]

Or that the other person was doing something else. And in the end, is that conflict resolution or is that submission? Well, I guess the way I related to what Greg said is it is an addiction. You know? It's a researched and demonstrated addiction. And I guess that's what I meant when I said I could have been a lot tougher and reacted. And I probably should have, but oh well. Greg's glad that I didn't. I think also in this case it's interesting if you're not a smoker... you might have, I mean, I'm sure you have certain beliefs or attitudes, your own opinions about smoking that would inevitably come into this conversation. I don't know. So I, like if you also have the belief, you're role playing somebody who smokes, but if you have the belief that smoking is harmful, then. Well, it's true.

[49:45]

I do think it's absolutely. Sorry, any smokers. I think it's disgusting. Yeah. So I think for me, it's, That's what I was hearing. I imagine that if you were a smoker in that situation, I don't know, it's hard to speak your truth given the belief you have. Well, you guys are really trying to explain why I was a little wimpy in this role play. I appreciate it a lot. And I think someone should come up and play brag and we should do it again. Okay, but you have to remember, Tanya, to practice your conflict resolution skill. Okay. The same thing? Oh, no, no, no, same, exact same thing. Okay. I feel you're a popular person here.

[50:45]

Don't know why. I cannot say I approve your addiction. Smoking addiction. And I also do not appreciate the fact that you hang out with people. And I feel that you're reinforcing this damaging and disgusting habit in other people. That's the way I feel. Okay, well... You know, you're entitled to your feelings, and it's my business. It's my smoking, so I, you know, I don't know. We share this environment, and it's your business in your private quarters. But as soon as it comes to socializing, it becomes not quite your business, but ours as well.

[51:49]

Well, you know, we have our designated area for smoking, and that's where I go. My permission. Is that true? Is that true, Greg? Now, come on, you've got to stay a little. I go there, and whoever else is there, you know, that's causes and conditions. So, you know, I don't control them. They make their own choices. And, of course, we're going to talk while we smoke. That's what you do. So I don't understand your issue. I think you should be talking to them, not me. Because I see my role is to encourage good choices here, not bad ones. So I want to see if it's possible to convince you to take a different look at your habits and how you spend your free time here at Tassajara. don't know I mean free time is free time I mean if I were smoking in the kitchen or you know in areas where you're not supposed to smoke I can understand you know you're bringing this up but I you know it's not like it's completely prohibited we have the area and that's where I go so I you know I just don't see where it's your business Greg I heard you priest sorry

[53:15]

And one of the vows, or our intentions, is not to cling. And you keep reinforcing this addiction. How do you feel about that? Well, I... Boy, I got nothing. Let's see, how would a smoker respond? Can anyone help me? Yeah. I was just thinking for some reasons asking, have you ever been a smoker? Have you ever been addicted to cigarettes? It's not, you know, it's not something. How can you talk about it if you haven't done it? Hmm. Asking Greg. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and apart from that, there are so many addictions. Like, it's just one of you. So... He's getting really twisted around now. Yeah, it is. So I think I want to just wrap this up so we have time for one other.

[54:17]

But I think the point... Oh, forget that. You know, from a conflict resolution point of view... I'm attacking you right now, right? You are attacking me. What I want. Right. What is your focus in going to... What do you need to focus when someone does this to you? Um... So if I am wanting to protect myself and be defensive, that's what I'm going to do. And I was actually taking that posture. And I think with you in your role, I think it's really up to you to be skillful in how you approach this conversation. So what I was going to – the comments I was going to make – is that if someone is getting defensive and attacking back and telling you you're wrong, it's important to hear them and to say something like, I know that it's a really tough habit, and I know there's socializing that's sort of built around it,

[55:35]

But I'd really like to talk about this from the point of view of why we're here in Tassajara. I don't want to guilt trip you, but you are a leader here. So am I. And I would just like to see if we can agree together on how you can, you know, as long as you have this habit, hold it in a way where it's not harmful to other people. And what I observe is harm around other people picking up the habit, which we know kills some people, ultimately. And I see it encouraging cliques and special kind of relationships. So I just want to ask you to consider, as a practice leader here with me, to relate to conduct your habit differently. so that we can support Tassahara in the way we're committed to.

[56:36]

So ultimately, to resolve conflict, meaning coming to some common place? Well, I would hope so. But I think what's really tricky about this situation, and I grew up with very committed smokers, is that my mom, I love her, may she rest in peace... was someone who would proudly light up in a restaurant when you could still smoke in restaurants while everyone else was eating. And, you know, she really didn't care about that, even though to me that is the definition of just, you know, being really rude and not caring about other people. She did change later in life. So approaching it in a way to resolve a conflict is you need to hear the person. And you need to find, you know, what do you have in common? Like, how can you be conflict partners and allies?

[57:40]

And I think to try to get someone who's addicted to cigarettes to stop is a losing proposition. I really do. I do think talking about why we're here and together, how do we lead Tassajara? Or how do we support Tassajara if it's not a practice leader? I mean, that is the route that I would take so that we can be kind of figuring it out together. Okay, Greg, and then what's your name again? James. Finding the third story that includes both. Yes. So there's your need, there's my need, there's the relationship need, the organization need. Even something that's so polarizing. Yeah. And I am over 20 years old. Good. So you can speak. So I would actually not attack the addiction, even though it would be tempting. I wouldn't criticize the person.

[58:41]

I wouldn't do any of that. I would just say, can we talk about your smoking and how it's affecting the community? I know that's a habit you enjoy. And I think that there are some impacts on Tassajara that are not helpful, or however you would say it, Greg. That's how I would approach it. I think to get personal, to get critical, you're just going to have an escalating conversation. Yes? Yesterday someone asked a question you said to hold for today, which was in conflict. the difference between conflict between two peers and peer and authority. And it seems that we were... Peers. Especially at the moment when I am a fellow practitioner and the tanto, you could see right away there was a shift in your attitude saying, oh, how do I... So how do I... What attitude do I take in front of someone who is clearly an authority...

[59:51]

In relationship to me. If they are in a higher position of power than you. Well, you know, it's important to be aware of what the consequences might be. And are you willing to pay them if that comes to pass? I work with people a lot in work situations who are dealing with supervisors or higher-ups. And you need to know what your bottom line is, what's most important to you. And I do think if you're talking about someone in authority, it's really important to have, I think no matter who it is, having a mutually respectful conversation is essential to conflict resolution. And I think it's also essential when you're dealing with someone in an authority position. And I think you need, yes. And I think you need to be really aware of what the dynamics are, what the positions are.

[60:53]

Again, you know, what's most important to you? I mean, I've worked with people who say, I do not care what happens. I need to tell what's true for me. And if I get fired, I get fired. And then there are other people, you know, we'll talk about what's the most extreme thing that can happen. And when they realize... I could get fired, I could get demoted, I could lose this relationship. They're not willing to risk that. And so that kind of awareness is really essential to making a conscious choice. Linda? In my written communications, when there's something that I'm in strong disagreement with and there's a hierarchical relationship, and I have a chance to read it over, I've learned this from doing it in written form, I've noticed that it's really helpful to do it, to ask genuine questions. Like rather than making any assumptions. But to say, you know, you talk about feelings and questions.

[61:55]

I'm concerned about this. I'm wondering about this. This is what I noticed in the past. But it gives me time to really think through that. In person, it's much harder unless I've really thought through that. But if I'm actually sticking... to what I know and what I, you know, which includes my own experience, what I've observed, what I feel, and to try to get out of what I think and actually have, you know, questions, then the person tends to be less defensive, although maybe still somewhat defensive because I'm poking at something, I'm concerned about it, but they usually come forward a lot more because they feel like they really need to provide some kind of answer, right? You know, it's not... It's not so charged. There's not an additional charge coming from me. The charge is just coming from the question. Yeah, I think that's a really skillful approach to ask questions and find out more about what is going on with the other person and the context of the situation and how they perceive the situation.

[63:02]

Right view. Huh? Right view. Right view. Yes, thank you. I mean, it's so easy to say. you went down to the pit so that you can smoke, or whatever it is. It's like, I know that you did X, Y, and Z. Yeah, we know where that line of questioning leads. I did not. Jackie. Yeah, along those same lines, to me, a lot of conflict resolution has to do with fully hearing the other person that seems to be in a situation like this. I think a lot of smokers feel ostracized by non-smokers. And so going down to some place to hang out with other smokers and feel like you are an okay person. So there's a need that needs to be recognized that's actually real. Well, we're again over. What? Well, I'm going to talk to Reverend Greg about maybe coming back at the end of August, if there's space, because I think it would be fun to continue the discussion, and I want to follow up on all these practice discussions I've had.

[64:16]

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[64:37]

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