It's on. Yeah. I can hear myself. Can you hear me? Great. I see many familiar faces, and for those who don't know me, I'm Timo. I'm living here at Wingull since quite a while. I'm a priest in training, and... I was invited to give here a second talk. And I thought I might feel a little bit more calm giving the second talk than the first one, but I think I don't. But it's great to have such a big audience. So I want to talk Today I want to start with one of my favorite characters, a quote from Vinnie the Pooh.

[01:58]

I know it's not a children's program, but I think if you get at my age or age older, then it just gets, you get closer to children's stories again. So I sneak out in the evening sometimes when my kids are in bed, I have a four and a six-year-old, and read their books. Can you still hear me in the back there? I should speak up a little bit. Yes. Thank you. So the quote from Vinnie the Pooh is, say, Pooh, why aren't you busy? Oh, because it's a nice day, said Pooh. Why ruin it? But you could be doing something important. I am, said Pooh. Oh, doing what? Listening. So that will be the talk of the day.

[03:01]

I'll talk something about the important thing, listening. And you get the pleasure to listen to. I mean, after I decided for the Pooh story, I thought like, well, how about I interview my four-year-old about listening? and see if she has something as philosophical to say as Pooh. And when I asked her, she immediately responded and said, oh, listening is when I go out on the street and no grown-up is with me. And I thought, hmm, it's more what I call not listening. You probably didn't listen to me. That's not what I said. But I actually felt a little bit disappointed. I mean, first, because it didn't sound so philosophical to me. And secondly, also because I felt like, oh, is that what I transmitted to my daughter in four years about listening?

[04:10]

Like, you obey your dad. Anyway, so. I first didn't think about presenting that year. But anyway, I went to my son, who is six years old, and said, well, I'll try it with him. And I asked him, what is listening? And Miro, just look at me. And I said, oh, I don't ask you anymore. That's good enough for me. Maybe it wasn't so bad at all, and maybe it my daughter will learn in the next two years a little bit more about listening. Anyway, the whole idea about, I mean, talking about listening came to me during a workshop I did, I don't know, it's now two weeks ago.

[05:11]

It was a group or the offering was made from a center of in understanding of conflict or yeah understanding in conflict and I was so fortunate that people from Green Gulch were invited to participate in this offering so I did and it started already with when the goal was presented it was said like well the goal of this mediation training in parties who are in conflict with each other is not really to solve their conflict. The goal for these parties who usually, it's a training, maybe I should say that, it's a training for people who offer mediation for parties in conflict who do not want to go down the legal road.

[06:14]

So the goal of this training was to help the people understand their conflict rather than to solve it. And so how we learned that or how we approached that was that we had, I think I need a sip of water here, that we had role play. So there was always like three people, two opposing parties and a mediator sitting in a triangle. And I think there were two themes which come up for me as the most important part of this whole exercise. I mean, one is like the two parties who play to be in conflict wasn't aware that it could be so much fun to play to be in conflict with somebody when you are not really in conflict with somebody.

[07:16]

And the second part is that you could say the most important or the only crucial function of the mediator in this whole play is to have the parties feel like somebody is listening to them. There is no other skill required, at least to my view, than Just being with the parties and providing that feeling that you are listened to. The question which comes up for me is like, how is the mediator providing that feeling?

[08:36]

I mean, one is like, you really listen, whatever that is. And I'll talk a little bit more about that. And the other part is like, you demonstrate to them that you are listening. Like, they tell you something and you... what they call, loop back what they said and ask, is that a correct understanding? Yeah. So, I'm just going to tell you a little bit about my feeling of how and why that listening felt so important. We did one of the exercises where one of the people was just asked to tell his life story about how he came here, and we had eight minutes for that.

[09:46]

So people could tell the life story, and the other person was just listening to the story. And then afterwards, people were reporting about that. And the amazing part is, like most people said, this was so unbelievable. I did not experience that for a long time in my life. There was somebody there who was just listening to me. He had no other agenda than just listening to my story. And... People felt that was an amazing gift, which they did not experience much in their lives. I think somebody said, like, oh, there is a survey done where people are asked if they are good listeners and if other people are good listeners. And it turned out most American people feel like they are good listeners. And most Americans don't think anybody listens to them.

[10:51]

So maybe I want to say that because this week is Thanksgiving. If you want to make a surprising present to somebody and you don't have a present yet, I think if you meet a family member or whatever and you just give the gift of listening to somebody, I think that will be amazingly appreciated. Or you can try it out. So what that does, you might have felt already, it's just like you give the person the feeling that, oh, he's worthy. He's worthy of listening, and if I'm listened to, I feel appreciated. And if I feel appreciated, I can relax. Like now, I mean, I can relax.

[12:03]

since you listen to me. And what that does, if I can relax when you listen to me, it's like, oh, I can listen to myself when I present the story. It's not like I present a story and I have to defend it or whatever. It's like I present a story and I can see, oh, what sort of story do I have? And when I'm done with that, then I'm ready. maybe to hear the other person's story. And this is the whole process of this taught conflict mediation. I am listened to and therefore we have a mediator. And then maybe I can become ready to first see my own story and then listen to the other person's story. And at least in this setting, It's not so much or it wasn't at all about dropping your own opinion at this point.

[13:08]

This was actually the more unencouragement. Don't encourage the people at this point to drop their stories. Just let them listen to the other's story. Let them be how they are and let them listen to it. I want to go maybe to talk a little bit more about challenges. What does prevent us from listening? And one part, of course, which comes up in my mind often is just time. I don't have the time. I remember I was preparing this talk and I felt very anxious or whatever that I didn't have enough time to prepare this talk. And then, of course, just in the last... hours where I felt like now I have some time. I get a phone call. I said, oh, and the person was from a family person.

[14:11]

I said, oh, I just, I'm in trouble. Can you just listen? I need to tell you a story. And I said, you know, it's really bad. It's a really bad time now because I'm just preparing this talk about, and I stopped. And I said, yeah i think i have time to listen to your story and i felt it was a very important time and i learned a lot and um yeah anyway so so time is one um the other one is that we often just when we talk of course we think already about our response or we prepare and we filter so i think I have here a nice quote from a smart guy who said, most people do not listen with the intent to understand, they listen with the intent to reply. And that is what happens to me, too, very often. And so part of the reply preparation is, of course, like, oh, analyzing what he said and what am I doing next?

[15:19]

and seeing that through filters. Actually, in the meeting when we were in that training, there were, of course, lots of lawyers there because lawyers move into this alternative form of mediation. And they said, you know, when I listen to my clients, I'm just like, I'm just hearing whatever is applicable to the law. The rest is just noise. And I felt like, yeah, that's what we think about lawyers, but it's not so much that... I'm doing so much a different thing. I always have my filters too on what I'm hearing, even for my kids or whatever. And so just to be aware of that. And I'm not saying that this is really a wrong method to have the filters because it might feel overwhelming. But I think we all have that intuition that This is not really what leads to understanding of the other person, of the self, what's going on.

[16:25]

So I'm moving a little bit into the methods of listening. What is good listening? What is right listening? And when you look into the... I mean, in Buddhist scriptures, like... Eightfold Path, Six Perfections. There's something about right speech and right concentration. There's not really right listening there. I thought, hmm. Anyway, but what would be the Eightfold Path without anybody listening to it? It's like the teaching. doesn't need to even bring it up. There's no teaching. There's no teaching if there's nobody who listens. What does right speech mean if there's nobody listening? We don't need any right speech there.

[17:30]

So I feel like right listening is just embedded in that whole teaching. It's the basis. Like the whole teaching is begging for somebody to listen. So since I didn't find much of really, what do you say, the traditional Buddhist sutra text about that, I went more to the, I looked more for contemporary quotes. And one of the quotes I want to read is from Thich Nhat Hanh. And he says, Deep listening is the kind of listening... that can relieve the suffering of the other person. You can call it compassionate listening.

[18:32]

You listen with only one purpose. Help him or her to empty their heart. Listen with only one purpose. Help him or her to empty their heart. That's the only agenda which he suggests us to have. It's nice for us to have an agenda. But that I think is a very helpful one of having no agenda while listening. Another quote I want to mention is from Suzuki Roshi. He talked about listening and found a quote in his talk from 1962. And his quote from listening was, and when you listen to someone, you should give up all your preconceived ideas or some subjective opinion.

[19:42]

And you should just listen to them. Just observe them. That is how we communicate with each other. Very little emphasis is put on right or wrong or good or bad. We just see things as it is and accept things. Just give up all your preconceived ideas. But how about if we talk to somebody who has really strange opinions and who might not even be our favorite person. I wonder if I just listen to such a person and I give up my ideas, maybe I would turn into a person who would be just as strange as him.

[20:51]

That can be pretty scary. I mean, we probably all know such people who are like, oh, no. Not with this one. Anyway, that is a suggestion. And we probably all feel like, even if you say, oh, There's no way around it, really. If we want to open the other's heart, there's no way around it. And maybe one of the really scary parts of it, yeah, one part is like, oh, I could become like the other person or implicit or whatever.

[22:01]

And the other part is like, who am I if I give up all my standpoints while I'm listening? Do I even find myself afterwards back again? I think I experience that to enter that place of Not knowing about who this person is here, standing here, who this person is, or is there even two or one. To stay in that place while listening is maybe the most challenging part and the most rewarding. Anyway, I want to go on with a quote from Suzuki. He continues to say, like, so as a listener or a disciple, it is necessary to clear up your mind from various associations or preconceived ideas or your own intention or your own habit.

[23:08]

And then he says, so that is why we practice Zazan and clear our mind related to something else. in case you're practicing Zazan and were always wondering why, one answer is here. It helps you to become a good listener. A listener who can reduce suffering. Practitioner Tan presented it. And why is Zazan a good practice? I mean, when we sit Zazan, I think we learn to let go of our opinions. I think we learn to get patient with whatever comes up. And that prepares us to be a listener. And maybe what I just mentioned, just to get comfortable, to get comfortable to sit in the not known.

[24:26]

So we heard like zazen prepares us for listening and that might be not surprising. It's not surprising because we maybe could just put it the other way around. Like zazen is, or seated meditation, what we call here zazen, is nothing other than listening. It's just like sitting here and listening say, to the cries and the joys of the world by sitting and letting all the things come toward you, letting them all tell their story. With only one purpose, you sit here and you listen to all the things coming forth to allow them to open their heart. filtering, now adding, now anything.

[25:45]

In this way, you could say our Zazen is listening is just a natural expression of our connection to all things. And for that, We need to be still, or we need to be upright. And that's exactly the posture we have in our meditation sitting. And as Doban says, this zazen, this posture is not dependent on sitting or lying down. So listening is not something we need to do. It's just something which we need to allow.

[26:54]

And if you think you are a good listener, you can test it. You can sit in seated meditation and see if you can listen well. And if you think you're a good sitter, you can just test it and listen to a person and ask him maybe afterwards, just to see if he agrees, she agrees, they agree. I want to spend the last part of my talk about listening to the Dharma.

[27:54]

And I might have and you might have sometimes a story, oh yeah, there are two things, like there's listening to a person and there's listening to a person's story and then there is listening to the Dharma. But the Dharma, the word Dharma has Many meanings. And one of the meaning is reality. And in this meaning at least, which is good, which helps me to remind myself, this is not like, oh, this is not the teaching of the Buddha. Yes, this is the teaching of reality, no matter what I am listening to. And if we treat people like that, oh, this is the Dharma, I'm listening to the Dharma when I hear that. Maybe that helps us to not put them too much in boxes, to not needing to filter out as much to defend ourselves to what we hear.

[29:03]

So you might have realized at the beginning of the talk, actually, we are chanting Let me just try. An unsurpassed perfect and penetrating dharma is rarely met with even in a hundred thousand million kalpas, having it to see and listen to, to remember and accept. I vow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words. What I'm often struck with when I hear that is like, why does it say it's so rare? It's like, it says, is rarely met with in a hundred thousand million kalpas. And I don't know if you know what a kalpa is, but I like that one.

[30:14]

picture which is presented I think in one of the sutras is like one kalpa is the time you need when you have a rock which is like seven miles by seven miles by seven miles and with this rock you wipe over with a very fine cloth one time in a hundred years and one kalpa is over when this rock is is decayed just by brushing the cloth over it one time in a hundred years. So that's one culpa. And we mentioned here 100,000 million of those. That is amazing. And then it says, then it says, having it to see and listen to. And actually, if you look in the original translation, not that I can, but I've read that somewhere, the original translation is, now we see and listen to.

[31:25]

And that's what we chanted, just to remind you at the beginning. It's rare in a hundred thousand million kalpas, but now we see and listen to. How could that be? for sure not because I'm sitting here and talking. What I came to like, just say like as a view, is like the rare thing about listening to the Dharma is not that the Dharma is so rarely popping up, the teaching. It is the now part. Now we see and listen to The Dharma can be only heard in the now, and that is where we are so rarely. And in that now, we taste the truth of that Tathagata's word.

[32:34]

When was it? Anyway, thank you very much for listening so well. I feel much more relaxed now than I found at the beginning of the talk. Intention equally.

[33:08]

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