This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good morning. Am I all technologically okay? Okay, good. Okay, thank you. Is that any better? Okay, good. Please do wave if you need me to speak more strongly. It's good to be here with you all here in the Zendo during this practice period. An honor.

[01:02]

to speak with you at this time, the practitioners here, as well as the residents in attendance, as well as I'm looking at the white dot in front of me, which I think communicates to the folks who are tuning in electronically. I'd like to speak about two things today. One is the location of our practice. Where our practice finds its home. Where it is located, where it operates. Where it comes forth. And secondly, about measurement.

[02:07]

More specifically, non-measurement. More specifically, non-measurement of the progress of our practice. Those two things. About a little more than 50 years ago, in April of 1970, Suzuki Roshi gave a Dharma talk. And among the things that he said in that talk, he said the following. What is important is not the teaching, but the character and effort of the student.

[03:27]

This is the most important point for Zen students. Any teaching... can be a good teaching for you. He said that, and then a little bit later in the talk, he also said, and I'm mentioning the second thing because it's connected to the first one. He said also, as much as possible, listen to your inner Rejecting useless things. Devote yourself to and listen to your inner voice. Then you will see someone who is great in the true sense.

[04:38]

Without this kind of spirit, and he was referring to the spirit of character and effort, and to the spirit of listening to your inner voice, without this kind of spirit, it is almost impossible to study our way. So the very first thing he says that I'm quoting is, what is important is not the teaching. The teacher, in this case, Suzuki Roshi, was teaching that what is important is not the teaching.

[05:49]

There's some irony. There's some irony in this. And also we know that, you know, Suzuki Roshi came to the United States in 1969 and died in December of 1971. And what did he do during those 12 years? Well, he did a lot of teaching. He did a lot of teaching. Of course, not just teaching, you know, teaching like this. Teaching by what he did and how he was. And teaching this way. With the mouth. I think when he said, what is important is not the teaching, he was mostly referring to that kind of teaching.

[07:01]

So, you know, no small degree of irony in this statement, which makes us wonder, well, what did he mean if he spent his life, devoted his life to teaching for him to say at this particular time? He said many other things. things at other times. But in this particular talk in April of 1970, he said, what is important is not the teaching. Something else is important. The most important thing. I wanted to add a word. to Suzuki Roshi's words, the word attitude. So what is important is not the teaching, but the character and effort, and I would say the attitude of the student.

[08:12]

And by student, we mean practitioner. All of us here, all of you watching on Zoom, Anyone who takes up the way. Whether you've been practicing Zen for 50 years or whether this is the first Dharma talk you've ever heard. Those are the students he's referring to. Us. We. Practitioners. So I want to take this seriously. Take what he's saying seriously, which he recommended.

[09:17]

He recommended it so strongly that he took his own advice as well. In another talk he gave, some other talk, not this talk. I don't remember when it occurred. But at the end of the talk, he said, oh, this was a pretty good Dharma talk. I should listen to this Dharma talk. Illustrating the spirit that he is talking about. The spirit of effort and character and attitude. So when I read this in the book, Not Always So, a compilation of Suzuki Roshi's Dharma Talks, Not Always So, that Ed Brown edited, you know, my first response was, what is important is not the teaching?

[10:33]

What? You know, what was that? I thought the teaching was, that's what we think, is that the teaching is really the important thing, right? That's why you want to hear my teaching today and Michael's teaching and Linda's teaching and Fu's teaching and others as well. We want to hear the teaching because the teaching is really the important thing. We think there's something called Zen. And then... Zen is comprised of certain knowledge that is possessed by teachers. And then they teach you about Zen. And then you learn about Zen. And then you have an awakening or something, some big thing happens. And then after that, things are much better.

[11:35]

That's what we usually think. We think the teaching is here and we're down here making an effort. Kind of getting a little funny echo on the machine here. Is it still okay back there? I don't mind getting an echo as long as I'm curable. Okay. So we think the teaching is here and that our effort is to go toward the teaching. And then we make an effort to get a hold of this teaching like that. But what Suzuki Roshi is saying is like this, the other way. What is important is not the teaching, but the character and attitude and effort of the student. A kind of radical reversal of our usual understanding. This is like, you know, in common parlance, this is like our usual way is we usually think what's important is the content.

[12:50]

And then the process is subsumed under the content. The process is how you get the content. The content is really the good stuff. And the process is how you get there. He's saying, no, no. The process. is actually the important part. That's why I think of this teaching of Suzuki Roshi about how what is important is not the teaching, but the character and attitude and effort of the student. That's why I think of it as long haul practice. This practice is good. For the long haul. More or less. From now. Until forever. Otherwise known.

[13:51]

As the moment of our demise. Personally. That's forever. As far as we know. Because. The sense in which he was talking about teaching, the teaching that is not important or not as important, what's not important, was a teaching that you can get a hold of. There's before I knew, then I knew, then in the past I knew. Past, present, and future. There's then I got it, and now I have it. He's emphasizing something else. And it needs to be said. In some sense, yes, that's true. In some sense, there is a teaching. And it is important.

[14:53]

And we do make an effort to understand it. ingest it, and live it. Yes, of course. But his emphasis is on ongoing practice. Long-haul ongoing practice is ongoing effort and cultivation. of our attitude and development of our character. It's ongoing and long haul because it's not as though you can say, oh, well, that's done. Now, oh, that's done. What's next? It's never done. It always needs to be, it needs new circumstances for one thing, and also it always needs to be

[16:07]

Revived. It's only alive when we do it, when we practice it. So it's continuous. Continuing. The talk said, not always so. Suzuki Roshi didn't give titles to his talks, but the title that Ed Brown gave to this talk, Ed, I think, was the person who gave those titles, was Sincere Practice. And in the course of this talk of Suzuki Roshi, she talks about various aspects of sincere practice. But I think this is a key part of sincere practice. This effort and character and attitude

[17:16]

So that's the first part. Oh, not quite. So what is important is not the teaching, but the character or effort of the student. This is the most important point for Zen students. And I realized many of you, most of you, almost everyone, I'm sure, if not everyone, is familiar with Suzuki Roshi's talks with either having listened to them or read them. And as you know, one of his expressions was, this is the most important point. And he says it about this, and [...] he says it about this.

[18:37]

He says that about lots of different things. He'll say something, and he'll say, this is the most important point. Which, from the perspective of measurement, doesn't make any sense. If this is the most important point, then this also can't be the most important point. This has got to be less important, because this is the most important. That's how we measure things. But our practice is not constrained by measurement. Well, that's not exactly accurate. We live in the world of measurement. Of course. We have to. We have to. You know. My voice has to be a certain measurement of decibel level in order for you to hear me.

[19:39]

And I know that. And that's important to know and to live according to those measurements. But it's not complete. The world of measurement, the trap, the prison of measurement is when we think that's the entire world. We course in the world of measurement. That's fine. We have to. There isn't any other world for us to course in. But how it is to course rather than be imprisoned by is to understand the world beyond measurement. So I know in practice period you're studying the Sando Kai. That's what the teaching of the Sandokai is. The teaching of the Sandokai, the merging of the world of measurement and the world of non-measurement.

[20:45]

How they are one world. So he could say, this is the most important point. And he did, quite freely, many times. Because this is the most important point, and this is the most important point, and this is the most important point. No contradiction. So a little bit later in this very same Dharma talk, as I said at the beginning, he says.

[21:53]

As much as possible, listen to your inner voice. As much as possible, listen to your inner voice. Rejecting useless things. He doesn't specify what things are useless. But I think we know. I think we know what the useless things are. Rejecting useless things. Devote yourself to and listen to your inner voice. Then you will meet someone who is great. Then you will see someone who is great. In the true sense. So.

[22:53]

You know, listening to your inner voice. It's kind of a cliche. You know. Kind of a cliche, don't you think? I was. It reminded me. Quite a while ago, a few years ago, I was having a conversation with someone, a one-to-one conversation, a very deep conversation. And the person was telling me about their life and their suffering, as we are wont to do. a good thing to talk about. And I offered some comment. I don't remember what my comment was.

[23:58]

And the person said, well, thanks, you know, what you said could have been, you know, like on a long airplane flight when you're chatting with your neighbor, you know, your neighbor could have said the same thing. which was a very elegant put-down of what I was saying. She was telling me about this very deep stuff, and I made this comment, and she was basically saying, you know, pretty superficial. Anybody could say that. Not very profound. So I've enjoyed that. I think of that, oh, somebody on an airplane could tell you the same thing if you're on a long flight. So, but I don't think, you know, when Suzuki Hiroshi said this, actually in 1970, it wasn't a cliche.

[25:01]

And of course, cliches become cliches because they sometimes, you know, contain something very important, profound for us. He was saying it. Oh, so he grabbed this from the culture. You know, it was flowing through the mainstream or not really mainstream culture, but flowing through the San Francisco Bay Area culture. You know, listen to your inner voice, you know, follow your inner promptings, et cetera. And he grabbed it out of the ethos and turned it. Turned it to indicate the location of our practice.

[26:14]

Listen to your inner voice means this is where the practice is. I don't mean, for me, this is where the practice is. I mean, you all need to do the same thing. This is where the practice is. In there. In here. Not out there. This is an echo of character. And effort. And attitude. As character and effort. And attitude are here. In here. They're. They're what is important. The most important. Rather than teaching. That is out there. Teaching as. Out there. So our practice is very. Very. Very. Very subjective. There's just one subject. I. Me. You.

[27:16]

And. The other flavor. The other flavor of. What Suzuki Roshi is saying, listen to you as much as possible. Listen to your inner voice is. How shall I say it? In the traditional teaching. One of the traditional. expressions of the teaching according to Edward Conze, who was a brilliant scholar and teacher, no longer alive. But I remember reading one of his books.

[28:33]

probably about 45 or 50 years ago. And it impressed me. And according to Dr. Konzett, there are five cardinal virtues in Buddhist practice. And the first of those is faith, confidence. In Sanskrit, it's Shraddha. See if I can do the others. Faith, confidence, vigor, energy. Enthusiasm. Mindfulness. Samadhi. Concentration. And. Wisdom. Are the five spiritual faculties. The five. Cardinal virtues. The most important thing. Again. So. And usually this first one, faith, confidence, shraddha, means believe in the teaching.

[29:46]

Believe in Buddhism, so to speak. I always wondered about that one. Famously, Shakyamuni Buddha, said at the end of his life, don't believe in Buddhism. Rather, he said it somewhat different than this expression of Suzuki Roshi, but he said rather, or at least in the tradition as we have it, Shakyamuni Buddha said, rather examine things in your own mind, in your own heart, and if they're true and good, then act in that vein. And if they're not, then don't. Actually, that echoes listen to your inner voice. There's an echo there from Shakyamuni Buddha's apocryphal last words.

[30:53]

So the traditional meaning, I believe, is to have faith in the teaching. But again, Suzuki Roshi, by saying, listen to your inner voice, he's talking about faith in you. Faith in each of us. This is very helpful. This is very useful. This is encouraging. Especially if... How should I say? Especially if we... We don't have that faith. Especially if we are self-doubt. Self-critical. Find ourselves not good enough. Not enough. Not good. Did it wrong. Again. Critical or highly critical or extremely highly critical.

[32:03]

Some of you may not have this problem. Good. But in case you do, Suzuki Roshiya say, listen to your inner voice. Have confidence in yourself. Have faith. Something he didn't say, but I think is an implication, is, of course, If I listen to my inner voices, if you listen to your inner voices, well, there's all kinds of stuff that's going on there. Some of it not so savory, not so good. So I think listen to your inner voice also implies, or I would add, listen to your inner voice called

[33:09]

Bodhicitta. Bodhicitta is. Bodhi is awakening, same root as Buddha. Means to wake up. Chitta means thought. I'm not sure, but it may also have some implication of like a direction, a leaning. Like a tropism, you know, like plants are heliotropic. They lean toward the sun. When the sun's over there, they go that way. When the sun goes over there, they go that way. So I think of our bodhicitta and our inner voice and our inner inclination as inclined toward wisdom, inclined toward prajna, prajnatropic.

[34:30]

Again, to be realistic, That's one inclination. There are other ones that go in different directions. When Suzuki Roshi says, listen to your inner voice, he means, listen to that prajnatropic inner voice, that innate wisdom-seeking, way-seeking mind. Some weeks ago, Jiryu here gave a talk. And at one point in his talk, he was kind of joking a little bit about how little instruction there is in practicing Zen. And of course, there's a great deal of instruction. There's a great deal of instruction. There's a great deal of teaching. There's all of that. But... There's an emphasis on prajnatropism.

[35:51]

There's an emphasis on eliciting, eliciting and encouraging our wisdom, your wisdom, each of your wisdom, each of your prajna. That is there, innate. very optimistic picture of human being. Innate ability to turn toward the truth. And our practice and our teaching, yes, it's very specific and it has this part and that part and, you know, five cardinal virtues, etc., etc., etc., etc. But also, fundamentally, it's all different ways of bringing forth Bodhicitta, of arousing our way-seeking mind and encouraging our way-seeking mind. Then you will see someone who is great.

[36:56]

Such a curious thing. Why will you see someone who is great at that point? Because you're wearing Bodhicitta glasses. If you're wearing Bodhicitta glasses, then... then teaching is great teaching. Any teaching is a good teaching for you. With bodhicitta glasses on. With way-seeking mind energized. Brought forth. So I also wanted to speak about, as I said, measurement, which I think is connected to this.

[38:10]

And mostly I just had two stories about measurement. The first one, Maybe apocryphal. I'm not sure if it actually happened. But it had to do with. A man who's no longer alive person. Whose name was Kobun Chino. And he was a Japanese Zen priest. And he. Assisted. Was an assistant to Suzuki Roshi. sure the exact dates, but in the late 60s, well, not in the early 70s, but in the late 60s, maybe into 1970 or so. Anyway, the story goes that, I just heard this in the last year or two. The story goes that, so he was a Kyudo master, archery, Zen archery master.

[39:13]

And There's a retreat center near Big Sur called Esalen. Some of you know of it. And the folks at Esalen asked him to do a Kyudo demonstration. Zen archery demonstration. And Esalen is, I haven't been there, but I pictured it many times. It's right on the coast. Some of you probably have been there. Right, right, right on the coast, like including the rocks that are, you know, just a little bit further is the Pacific Ocean. And very dramatic and beautiful in a northern California style, northern coastal California beautifulness. So he went down there and, you know, was going to do this demonstration and he set up the target.

[40:21]

you know, on this cliff with the Pacific behind him, behind it. And then he stepped back and then drew his bow and then aimed it up and let go. And predictably, the arrow flew The arrow had absolutely no relationship with the target, the so-called target. Arrow flew into the air over the edge of the cliff and landed in the Pacific Ocean. And his comment was, can't miss. So. Again, in the Sandokai, we say, how does it go?

[41:23]

Phenomena exist like box and lid fit. Principle accords like arrow points meeting. So this is the, you know, when you visualize, you know, arrow points meeting is so extraordinary, you know. Imagine shooting two arrows and they meet like that. So this is another version of arrow points meeting. We can talk about arrow points meeting, but also arrow points meet the Pacific Ocean. Arrow points, that's also how principle accords. That's also... The absolute. As vast as the ocean. As unlimited. That's a can't miss.

[42:33]

Non-measurement. And it's not measuring. Well, how close did I get to the bullseye? That's our usual target. Is the bullseye of the target. But this is a different target. The Pacific Ocean is a different target than a bullseye. The universe is a different target than some restricted version of who you are. That's one story. The other story is also about measurement, is not apocryphal. I know that because it's happened to me. And it involved another person who had been sent to help Suzuki Roshi, a Japanese Zen teacher named Katagiri.

[43:39]

Dainin, Katagiri, Dainin means great patience. And I had a one-to-one interview with him at one time. I think it was before 1969, because it was back at Sokoji before Zen Center. Some of you don't know what I'm talking about, but some of you do. Before Zen Center moved to 300 Page Street, we were on Bush Street. That was where Suzuki Roshi first was when he came to the United States on Bush Street in San Francisco at Sokoji Temple that used to show samurai movies on the weekend as a fundraiser kind of a thing. So I had Doka-san with Katagiri Roshi, at that time Katagiri Sensei, behind the movie screen somewhere.

[44:45]

It was a room that was dark. I don't remember so well. However, I do remember, you know, 50-plus years later, again, because it was very meaningful to me. So we sat down, and I was very nervous because here was the Zen teacher. I'm mentioning that because maybe when you meet with a teacher, you feel a little nervous. It might happen. I was very nervous. I didn't know what to say. What do I say? I don't have any questions. I don't know enough to have any questions. Even. So we sat there for a few moments. And then he asked me a question. Which was helpful. He said. How is your Zazen? And I said. Pretty terrible. And he said.

[45:49]

Oh. pretty terrible, is pretty good. That's the story. I found it very encouraging that he would say that. So one interpretation of pretty terrible is pretty good, is a measurement interpretation. Your measurement is pretty terrible. My measurement is pretty good. That's pretty good. I'd rather have his measurement than mine. Mine was painful to me. But in another way... It's like shooting an arrow into the Pacific Ocean.

[46:53]

In another way, I don't know if he meant this. Or I don't know if he meant this consciously. But also, pretty terrible is pretty good can also mean throw away pretty terrible. Throw away pretty terrible, throw away pretty good. Throw it out the window. Just practice now. Just practice with what you've got now. Whatever it is that you've got or don't got. Which... is a way of saying ongoing effort and develop character and cultivate attitude and listen and arouse and awaken to ways-seeking mind.

[48:11]

The mind that seeks the way is already awakened. That is awakened mind. Never mind measuring. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our programs are made possible by the donations we receive. Please help us to continue to realize and actualize the practice of giving by offering your financial support. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving. May we fully enjoy the Dharma.

[49:12]

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