This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good morning. Happy Equinox. Today is March 20th, official turning of the season. equal night, right? Equinox, day and night equal. It seems like March came in like a lamb and is going out like a lion. You familiar with that expression? When I was in second grade, our teacher in my class In the month of March, we had a calendar, and each day we were supposed to put a lion or a lamb on the calendar, depending on what the weather was like.

[01:10]

At the end of the month, we decided whether it came in like a lamb and went out like a lion or came in like a lion and went out like a lamb, or maybe just mixed opinion. Anyway, it sure was fun moving furniture in the snow. on work day that was a gas today I want to try to talk about Zen Zazen and that's something that's hard to talk about and I might try to work my way around to it in a roundabout way and we may not get there or you may decide we never got there that's possible I am going to talk about lambs and lions first I want to thank and acknowledge

[02:28]

teacher, Sojin Mel Weitzman Roshi. And to say that this talk, any talk, is just to encourage you in your practice. And I'd also like to thank the leader of this practice period, our beloved Abbas, Agent Roshi Linda Ruth Katz. I've really been appreciating her teachings. I've really been appreciating studying the Mountains and Waters Sutra. So I wanted to begin by reading you something. a little bit of teaching from the old school this is from the Pali Canon the book of the fours from the book of the gradual sayings the Anguttara Nikaya the lion monks the lion king of beasts

[03:59]

at eventide, comes forth from his lair. Having come forth from his lair, he stretches himself. Having done so, he surveys the four quarters in all directions. Having done that, he utters thrice his lion's roar. Thrice having uttered his lion's roar, he sallies forth in search of prey. Now monks, whatsoever brute creatures hear the sound of the roaring of the lion, king of beasts, For the most part, they are afraid. They fall to quaking and trembling. Those that dwell in holes seek them. Water dwellers make for the water. Forest dwellers enter the forest. Birds mount into the air. Then monks, whatever Raja's elephants in village, town, or Raja's residence are tethered with stout leathern bonds, such burst and rend those bonds asunder. void their excrements, and in panic run to and fro.

[05:00]

Thus potent, monks, is the lion, king of beasts over brute creatures. Of such mighty power and majesty is he. Just so, monks, when a tathagata arises in the world, an arahant, a perfectly enlightened one, perfect in lore and conduct, welfareer, a world knower, the trainer unsurpassed of men and women who can be trained, teacher of devas and humankind, a Buddha and exalted one. She teaches Dhamma, such is the self, such the origin of the self, such is the ending of the self, such is the practice going to end the self. Then monks, whatsoever devas there be, long lived, lovely, and become happy, for a long time established in lofty palaces, they too, on hearing the Dhamma teaching of the Tathagata, He says,

[06:24]

is a tathagata over the world of devas and humankind. Of such mighty power and majesty is she. So that's some core stuff, right? That's the fear. Fear of loss of me. No more me. You could call it fear of death. But you know, some religions have taken that into account. They'll say, oh yeah, you're going to die, but there'll still be something. Don't worry. stuff.

[07:42]

I was at Sashin in Hokyoji in southern Minnesota. And it was summer, August. And the property, the grounds there are very pretty. This is Katagiri's temple. It's where Category Roshi's monument is. We have some of his ashes up here on Suzuki Roshi's ashes site, but his monument, his ashes are at Hokkyoji, a beautiful memorial site there. But on the property, it's basically cleared fields. That's where I met John. And you could camp out in the sashim if you wanted to. And then there's a place where going uphill, the clear fields, these are the hills that sort of compass the Mississippi River.

[08:54]

Same neck of the woods that Linda Ruth comes from, actually. Going uphill, it's just the field ends and there's woodland. actually heavily forested, like paper birch and aspen and alder. They're very, very thick forest land. And close to there, they had these outhouses. So I was walking there, and it was dark night. I had my flashlight. I was walking along this border, and I was looking into... You couldn't see anything into this woodland, this forest. And all of a sudden, something growled at me. I had no idea what it was. Dog?

[09:57]

Wolf? Bear? Sasquatch? I mean, it was loud. And it pretty much... scared the you-know-what out of me. Which is, I guess, where they got that expression, you know, the Raja's elephants. I can relate. It was very scary. So, a great teacher, Pema Chodron, wrote this book, very popular Buddhist book, called The Places That Scare Us. That's where practice occurs. Talk about facing your fears. This very core fear. By the way, when I first read this teaching from the Pali Canon, my

[11:08]

my initial response to it was, oh, there used to be lions in India. I thought India only had tigers. And it turns out, there still are lions in India. Naomi's nodding her head. I looked it up. The Asiatic lion, also known as the Indian lion, is a subspecies of lion. The only place in the wild where the lion is found is in the Ghir forest of Gujarat. In 2010, the Gujarat government reported that 411 Asiatic lions were sighted in the Ghir forest, a rise of 52 over the last census of 2005. And what does that make them, Naomi? Charismatic megafauna.

[12:15]

Major charismatic megafauna. So, thinking about facing your fears, I want to say, I was saying... I was really appreciating, I am appreciating, Linda Ruth's teachings on the Mountains and Water Sutra, but I've been missing the stories. In previous practice periods that our Abbas has led, sometimes in Dharma talks she would regale us with stories. Like, for example, Peter Pan, I remember, she talked about Wendy and Peter Pan, and One time she read us the little engine that could. And she's spoken about Demeter going into the underworld. And I can't remember what else.

[13:18]

But so I thought I could tell a story about a sort of archetype. You could say a Jungian archetype of facing fear, which is the story of St. George and the Dragon. This is a kind of seminal legend. Not exactly myth, legend. You know, it's in that territory. There are many, many versions of this story. And it's probably got its origins from, you know, way, way back. Maybe there was, maybe there wasn't such a person as St. George. is definitely parallels with the Greek myth of Perseus and Andromeda. And even before that, there is a Babylonian story of a guy who faces a dragon and conquers it.

[14:22]

So it's a sort of, you know, like I say, seminal archetypal story. the most common version it's also set in different places some people have it as happening in Libya there's of course St. George is the patron saint of England and there's a town in England that claims that St. George was a knight in that town who conquered the dragon there and there's even speculation that that dragon might have been a that escaped from the menagerie of Richard I. More charismatic megafauna. But the most common version has it that there was this dragon in this village, say in Libya, that was a small kingdom.

[15:32]

And the dragon... envenomed all the countryside, meaning it was a real pest. It made the countryside venomous. It was very difficult to live with this dragon around. And so the people bargained with the dragon. And in order to keep it under control and keep it at bay, they started feeding it and they would feed it to sheep or lambs if you will every day the dragon had to be fed but they started running out of sheep and when they ran out of sheep they started feeding the dragon their children one by one.

[16:34]

I don't know if there's every day like I say there's a lot of versions of this story but yeah basically they ran out of sheep and they started feeding the dragon their children and the children were chosen by lottery and at one point The lottery fell on the king's daughter, the princess. And the king was terribly distraught. And he said, I'll open my coffers. I'll give you all my gold and silver. I'll give you my lands if I don't have to give up my daughter. And the people said, heck no. No justice, no peace. We're the 99%.

[17:37]

We have to do it. You have to do it. So the king said, okay. And they took his daughter and they dressed her as a bride for some reason. And they left her where the dragon would find her. I guess the usual dragon feeding place. And about that time, along comes George. Hi, George. Think of George as like a guy who works in a video store. Hey, George. Here comes George on horseback. And he says, what's going on? And the princess says, get out of here. Save yourself. And George says, no way. What's going on? and then he sees the dragon coming to get his meal and of course this one guy on horseback all by himself faces the dragon alone and this is a very popular subject in

[19:03]

medieval and Renaissance art, I think because of the dynamism of the composition, you know, either with a lance or the sword. It just represents courage. Having the heart go forward and face this terrible thing, you know. You're going to be sushi. It's a dragon. It's going to eat your horse first, and then it's going to eat you. But no, of course, George, well, there's a lot of different versions. In one version, George gives the dragon a grievous wound, and then he takes the princess's girdle, puts it around the dragon's neck, and leads the dragon into the town, and converts all the citizens to the Christian faith. But in another version, at first, George is defeated by the dragon.

[20:19]

In his first encounter, he's defeated by the dragon. And I know you might be thinking, how is somebody defeated by a dragon and not like eaten or at least seriously maimed? Good question. He ran away. I mean, the legend says George retreated. He ran away. Right? Pretty good instinct. They call those chemicals fight or flight. So George ran away. He failed, right? He failed. He was defeated by the dragon. And so he wanders down to the river to meditate and pray over his challenges.

[21:29]

And he takes off his armor. And he causes his armor to be melted down. He takes his armor off and he melts it down. And he has an armorer fashion his arms, his armor, into a box. Takes that metal and turns it into a box. And in that metal box, he puts all his fears, his doubts, and his lack of faith. And then he goes back unarmed and instantly defeats the dragon. I think they were playing go, actually. It's possible. Anyway, that's how the story goes.

[22:31]

He defeats the dragon unarmed. So... I really like that story because I think that's kind of a Zen story. It's intuitive. It's intuition that looks kind of counterintuitive. First, take off your armor. It's like Jesus of Nazareth saying, love your enemies. Love who? They're my enemies. You don't love your enemies. They're my enemies. That's what enemies are for, is to hate. Everyone knows that. Two thousand years later, people still can't cop to that one. Yeah, so it's... George's intuition is to take his armor off first. And then he makes this box.

[23:34]

The Shuso spoke very eloquently about... containers, you know, practice containers. It's not like his fears, his doubts, and his lack of faith were going anywhere. It's not like he had to get rid of them. He's just going to set them aside and put them in this box for now. He's in a practice container, right? In Buddhism, I don't I'm not an Abhidharma scholar, but we would call these kleshas, or unwholesome mental factors. In the Abhidharma, these are taken into account. And forgive my Sanskrit as well. I don't know if I have this right, but pratiga, vikitsa, ashradya, unwholesome mental factors.

[24:38]

They're just things that, you know, If you're a human being, you're subject to having. That's all. No big deal. So, FDR was wrong. FDR was President of the United States for four terms, 16 years. And he's most famous for having said, during World War II, nothing fear but fear itself when I say he was wrong I mean I disagree you don't have to fear fear itself okay there's fear here's me sitting here's my fear I have it in this nice box here I had the armor make this nice metal box

[25:40]

It's not like I'm stuffing it away or hiding it. I know where it is. It's here in this practice container with me. Here I am sitting. Here's my fear. Here's my doubts. Here's my lack of faith. I acknowledge them. I don't deny them. But I don't have to get spun out over them either. Oh, hello, habit energy. Hello, unwholesome mental factors. All right. So, yeah. You don't really have to fear fear. You don't have to fear failure. Okay, you know, George, that was it. Or was it? He's defeated by the dragon. He retreated. Okay. Fail, epic fail, right? All right.

[26:41]

That's what's happening. You're fired. 20 years I gave my life to this business. Throwing away like a piece of garbage. Wow. Or you lose a loved one. I can't go on. Right. You can't go on. compassed about with the Self, compassed about with that Self. But yet something's got to give. So Shogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, who was very close to Suzuki Roshi, and also some of his ashes are up at our ashes site.

[27:51]

In his very famous book called The Myth of Freedom, he says, the lion's roar is the fearless proclamation Any state of mind is a workable situation. You are the lion's roar. What is it that thus comes? It's you and [...] you. You take your Dharma staff and plant it in the soil of Kasahara Canyon. Any state of mind is a workable situation. Workable how?

[28:57]

That's my teacher's dharma. That's Sojin Roshi's teaching. How? How we do this. The Sutra of the Lotus Flower of the Wonderful Law, the Lotus Sutra, does not say that a sentient being can fathom the reality of all existence. And it does not say that a Buddha can fathom the reality of all existence. And the Lotus Sutra does not say that among the various ways that the reality of all existence can be fathomed, a Buddha together with another Buddha is one of those.

[30:12]

No. No, no, no. The Lotus Sutra says, Only a Buddha, together with a Buddha, can fathom the reality of all existence. It only happens in relationship. A dear friend of mine, Karen Dakotis, who's going to be coming for this great assembly session we're planning for the end of April, here, as a longtime student of Sojan Roshi's, and she lives on an ashram in Montana. How cool is that? And it's actually, by all accounts, I don't know a whole lot about it, a pretty successful intentional community. Like Tassahara is a pretty successful intentional community.

[31:17]

And she told me that on the ashram, they have a saying when there's conflict and disagreement. And the saying is, would you rather be right or would you rather be in relationship? Well, for the record, I'd rather be in relationship. I've had it with being right. I'm not talking about being upright. I'm all about upholding the precepts and ethical behavior, but this, I'm right, which includes, you're wrong. Forget it. Trungpa Rinpoche used to tease his students about this. He used to say, you just, you want to be on the good guy side. You want to be over there where you're safe, you know.

[32:19]

Or you know you're right. Yeah. No, I've kind of had it with being right. I feel like maybe we're in a recovery program. Hi, my name's Greg, and I'm right. You're supposed to say, hi, Greg, welcome. Oh, well, whatever. This meeting, this relationship, is something that I feel Tassajara truly, truly excels at. When Carolyn Cavanaugh, my dear friend Carolyn, was shuso here,

[33:23]

in her Shuso Wayseeking Mind talk, early on in the talk, she expressed her appreciation for Tassahara about how people come around and meet again. You know, it's a small valley. It's a small practice container. And it's a very powerful practice. You can think, oh, I know all about that person. I'm not talking to them anymore or not having anything to do with that. And, you know, it just may not hold up. It just may not work. I've seen it happen over and over again. I'm not saying it's guaranteed. But it happens a lot.

[34:26]

It really happens a lot. And I share that appreciation with Carolyn. So maybe I'm creeping back to Zazen. Because that's my theory. besides the fact that it's a very small valley and it's a small practice container, is we're doing all this zazen. Did you see the article in the Chronicle recently? Anybody here see that? Read it? They made a little error in their fact-checking, I noticed, because it said that the monks at Tassajara meditate for 14 hours a day? And I said, uh-uh.

[35:30]

The monks at Tazahara meditate 24 hours a day. Yeah. And we're cultivating bodhicitta. And the relative qualities of bodhicitta are friendliness and helpfulness. Again, I'm not saying that's a sure thing, but that's what I've noticed. I'll say that. So this zazen It's so hard to talk about. I think a little while ago, Linda Ruth said something about, can you give a Dharma talk without quoting Suzuki Roshi?

[36:44]

Oops. I can't resist. Because this quote is a little bit, a little off the wall. Yeah. Kind of interesting. I've thought about it a lot. This is from a Q&A that Suzuki Roshi was having during a seshin in 1965 at Sokoji Temple. And they recorded all the questions and answers. And in the course of that, Suzuki Roshi says, so you know, to sit... is to live in invisible, big world. So sooner or later, we may die. And we go to the same place when you sit. And people that I've shared this quote with, quite often the response is...

[37:50]

Oh, heck no. Me, the same place when I sit? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah. Wouldn't that just about make you want to avoid your excrement? No. Not that. Not where I go when I sit. I don't think he's talking about your subjective experience of zazen. I think he's talking about something more along the lines of, when even for a moment you express the Buddha's seal in the three actions by sitting upright in samadhi, the whole phenomenal world becomes the Buddha's seal and the entire sky turns into enlightenment. Because of this, all Buddha Tathagadas, as the original source, increase their Dharma bliss and renew their magnificence in the awakening of the way. Furthermore, all beings in the ten directions in the six realms, including the three lower realms, at once obtain pure body and mind, realize the state of great emancipation, and manifest the original face.

[39:06]

At this time, all things realize correct awakening. Myriad objects partake of the Buddha body and sitting upright, a sovereign under the Bodhi tree, you immediately leap beyond the boundary of awakening. At this moment, you turn the unsurpassably great Dharma wheel and expound the profound wisdom, ultimate and unconditioned. Isn't that your experience with Zazen? Well, maybe not, but maybe so. I think this is Dogen Zenji's attempt express in words that which is very difficult to express as I said at the beginning of this talk his attempt to express in language what's really happening what's really happening when we come to our cushions

[40:22]

You expound the profound wisdom, ultimate and unconditioned. You do. What is it that thus comes? It's you. You are the lion's roar. You are the fearless proclamation that any state of mind is a workable situation. Any state of mind in zazen, any state of mind in relationship, any state of mind, period, it's workable. It's treating others as part of your own body because they are.

[41:48]

Well, I think that's pretty much the gist of what I wanted to say. I hope it wasn't too confusing. Lions and lambs and dragons and charismatic megafauna and friendliness and helpfulness. Friendliness and helpfulness. Sashin is coming up. practice period is drawing to a close. I've been trying not to talk about it or think about it, but there you are. So please treasure these days, these moments. Don't get distracted.

[43:07]

thinking of a future moment to be present in or some really good advice for Sashin the same Sashin that was happening in 1965 these transcripts you know they're all in the library by the way all these transcripts are in the library and actually there was several transcripts for this particular day July 30th, 1965. And the first one looks like this. And it says, during meditation before breakfast, Sesheen Lecture, Lecture A, Sokoji Temple, San Francisco. Don't be bothered by your mind. And then down at the bottom it says, Source, City Center original tape.

[44:17]

Verbatim transcript by Bill Redican and Judith Randall. Aww. So, I can't touch that. That's my best advice for Sashim. Don't be bothered by my talk. Don't be bothered by your mind. But I'm wondering if you have any questions. Yes. I guess what I was trying to get at with that story of St.

[45:20]

George that I like so much is, you know, he went to work. First, he took off his armor, right? First, let's just, we don't need to defend so much, right? So it's counterintuitive, but become more vulnerable. open to it. And then, you know, it's like he didn't have to get rid of the botheration. He didn't have to, like, make it go away. He did, like, you know, put it in a box, maybe just temporarily. But the way, you know, what I get out of that is... sitting with it. Letting things unfold on their own.

[46:21]

Not to say there aren't things you can do. There's many, many, many teachings about working with these unwholesome states of mind. But for me, I think 99% of it is willingness to acknowledge and be with, okay, hello habit energy, there you are. Please sit with me. I'm not going to try to make you go away. I'm not going to try to fix it right now. Let's just see what comes forth. And... The relationship, you know, I was speaking of relationship in terms of people relating to each other.

[47:23]

But it's also relating to the various parts of yourself. Working in relationship. As Hoi Nang, the sixth ancestor, says, save the sentient beings in your own mind. So it's an openness to being in relationship. with the various parts of yourself, the parts that are suffering. We want to make them go away. But you might not have had much success with that one. Something like that. Heather, then, keep. Good point.

[48:28]

Why not? And by stepping out of his armor, which he thought was going to protect him, he actually became more intimate with himself and, like you said, strode ahead with his heart open to the dragon, which seems to me is a little bit like the Wizard of Oz, you know. So when my question sort of comes up, He was able to step out of the armor. I think a couple of questions arise for me is, one, sometimes it's hard for us to see the armor because it's so shiny.

[49:34]

For me, it's really dull because it's been around for so long and we start paying attention to it, it gets shinier and we're able to see it more. But it seems to me like when there's a lot of identification with these parts of ourselves that something we know about, something we don't know about, how is it that we're able to unpack you know, how is it able to sort of allow fear to dismantle so that we don't identify with this armor? Because I think it's the identification that keeps, seems to keep that armor on is this identification with these mental faculties. So, would you speak a little bit about how one goes about disidentifying all these mental faculties? Whether, I mean, whether they cause the suffering or not, but I guess the suffering ones are the first ones to pay attention to. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think it's a process of discovering that we don't need to. Situation after situation.

[50:36]

And, you know, how you do that. I was pointing to him at talk for me. This kind of practice is excellent for it. Because. it'll force us into situations where it just seems totally untenable but I'm actually still breathing I mean that happens to me in Zazen I can't go on or I can't sit Zazen and then lo and behold I haven't actually run out of the room I'm still breathing. Oh, so I guess I didn't need to believe that. Over and over again, discovering what you don't need to believe.

[51:39]

Something like that. continue to believe that other people are responsible for our mental states, especially our uncomfortable mental states? Well, I don't necessarily believe that what I say is true, because, you know, I'm in recovery. And I don't necessarily... What did you say? How can I go on believing that other people are... states yeah yeah I don't believe that other people are responsible for my uncomfortable mental states in fact I'm trying hard when I notice that I'm believing that other people are responsible for my uncomfortable mental states I'm trying to make my practice to identify those uncomfortable mental states see them clearly

[52:53]

Sit with them. See them for what they are. Oh, uncomfortable mental states. There you are. There's a long list of them. Happy Dharma is a lot of fun. Pratiga, Vikitsa, Ashradja. You know, it's not like good or evil. It's just uncomfortable mental states. You know, probably don't want to cultivate those. I don't believe that other people are responsible for my uncomfortable mental states. Uncomfortable mental states may arise in interactions with other people. And then I study that and practice with it. That's my intention. So St. George runs away and leaves this place.

[53:55]

Which I think probably takes a while. And we come up upon this in small and big ways that we are taking this time to melt down our armor and build a box. But dude, there's a dragon who's going to eat a princess. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe the dragon had to beg for best three out of five. I don't know. Sometimes there's the dragon and there's the fear and there's a need for immediate response. immediate action you just do I guess I'm thinking of the fire I was in in 1986 when the place I was living in

[55:27]

blew up because people were making fireworks there illegally. They were making black powder, and it blew up the building. It was one of the ten biggest fires in San Francisco history. And it just went from peaceful mourning into a war zone like that. And many people did, just regular people, you know, who were doing their jobs that morning, who were at work making furniture or art or whatever it was they were up to on that particular morning, suddenly were doing these incredibly heroic things, left and right, pulling bodies and helping each other out of the building. It was quite amazing.

[56:33]

And we have that, actually. I've seen it with my own eyes. We all have that. We have that capacity. Like when you have to do something right now, is that what you mean? go take care of this thing that relates to me rather than take care of this thing that relates to you because I want to build a box and put my fear in it I don't want to face this immediate experience I don't think you get sainted for that yeah there's potential for negligence there yeah I think you know when the building blew up

[57:51]

in 86 that nobody was saying, okay, let me just go change into more comfortable shoes, right? They just, they went with it, whatever shoes they were wearing, or, you know, I need to put on protective gear, whatever. Now, of course, on our fire crews, we train. We have the immediate response crew, and then we have the people who do, you know, do have to get into their suits and their boots and be the pump crew and the hose crew. So, maybe bodhisattvas have something like that going on, too. You know? In the mind of the bodhisattva, there can be an immediate response crew, and then, you know, later on, the hose crew and the pump crew come in. But to just... a step back to not meet.

[59:06]

Well, if that's what you have to do, that's okay, but I wouldn't consider it optimal. It did say he was defeated. I don't know. I don't know about that part. Curtis? Question about maybe discernment. It seems that when fear arises, it can tell us a lot. It's a powerful information. It can say, look, there are these things that I'm holding on to that I'm afraid to lose. And also say, look at this situation. complex web of things that it tells us about. And it seems to me that sometimes the work isn't all on our side. That if somebody, for instance, is in an abusive relationship, that the fear isn't just telling, well, I should work on my fear of being beaten.

[60:18]

Like, I should be so attached to not being beaten, for instance. I think that that's irresponsible, unhelpful. And that if somebody's in a relationship that's caustic, abusive, that there are certain kinds that may look like being right. That the alternative isn't always just that relationship is good and that we can eat whatever we need to in order to maintain being in this wonderful thing. Because sometimes they're not so wonderful. I agree with that. It's a question of skill and means. What's the appropriate response? I do recommend reconciliation.

[61:19]

I do recommend working with in the short term retreat might be the appropriate response in the long term we all have to live with each other and treat each other as parts of our own body Yes, Marsha. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[62:27]

She does. She says, save yourself. Thank you very much. That's exactly right, you know. I mean, in the story, she says, when he comes riding by, first thing she says is, get out. happens until it's the king's time. So there's just this kind of horror.

[63:27]

And presumably the story is really about internal archetypal work is. But Sajin's question brought it up at the external world. And so the question for me is, what does this defeat consist I mean, I haven't read the stories. I've seen a picture. But did they make friends with the dragon? Did they persuade it to channel its energy otherwise? We assume that St. George took that a sort of float. But is there anything in the story about what defeated the dragon and his niece? That's up to you. And it's been retold in many modern versions as well, where the dragon defeats, say, George, where the dragon is tamed, where the dragon is the same one and George is the crazy one, where the princess is the hero, where they just

[64:53]

play each other in a match of go, best three out of five. Yeah, so, you know, being an archetypal story, I think it's up to you to take, you know, what do you get out of it? The business about how they just kept feeding him sheep and then children until it was the king's daughter. Kind of brings up for me what Curtis was saying about, you know, staying in an abusive relationship. and not doing anything. I'm going to just keep feeding this dragon. And we do that. We feed our dragons. Just to keep them at bay, we throw them a little something. Throw them a little something over and over again until it becomes untenable. I guess I sort of think that Sashin is a good way of making the... situation become untenable rather quickly?

[65:58]

Maybe Sashin is starving the dragons? I don't know, just a thought. Ino-san, what's the true dragon? You are the true dragon. Thank you. I see it. John. I wonder, in your position, being Tanto, you have to, you know, I would imagine it'd be easy to see. I mean, for me, I would see others as like I have to control them or try to get them to do the right thing or something. Do you practice with Do you have that come up?

[66:59]

I do, I do. I tried to take up Suzuki Roshi's teaching, which he famously said, it's in Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, you could look it up. The best way to control someone is to encourage them to be mischievous. So I'm trying to take up that practice. I'm trying to make it my practice to see everyone as Buddha, actually. I actually wrote that down as my practice intention for this practice period. So I'm really trying to do my best to see what comes, what's arising, how people are behaving, practicing,

[68:23]

as Buddha activity. It doesn't mean I'm not also trying to take care of the forms of this temple, but actually, you know, with a mind of not controlling. Kind of, you have to hold up both sides. It's the way I see it. Naomi. Thank you for your talk. Thank you for managing to find several ways to bring up charismatic . I heard a suggestion of cultivating helpfulness to be helpful.

[69:29]

studying being helpful. And I'm not sure that I know what that is or I want to do it all the time. I find that pretty often what I think is helpful isn't. So what is helpful? There isn't a thing called helpful. It's your activity. It's activity that's informed by your vow, your strong vow. And then practicing with each other, practicing in relationships,

[70:42]

You find out. It's like my exchange with the abbess in the shosan ceremony. I said, what does it mean? What did I say? Entrusting ourselves to the sangha. What's that all about? That's what I said. And she said, they will train you. we will train each other we will find out what is helpful and it may change because they do all these dharmas you know they're all marked by emptiness it turns out so there isn't a thing called helpful but there is helpful activity I think so Well, that's the way I see it.

[71:46]

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like I said, you know, treating others as part of your own body, which circles all the way back to those devas getting scared and quaking, you know. Oh, we thought we were permanent, separate, stable. We're not. But it's good news, too. Yes, Aaron. Oh, I thought perhaps that you were

[73:23]

sharing what your subjective experience of Zazen is. Danny. I'm sitting here feeling like Me too. It's so complicated, but I guess in a way I'm glad that response, although it's so complicated, but I'm just gonna throw it out there, that I'm glad that the response to Hitler was not, there wasn't a single response to Hitler, I understand, but, well, let's take some time to take off our armor and cultivate this courageous defenselessness

[74:53]

So there's one example which I'm holding in my mind. And then on the other hand, I have the example of Gandhi who, in a different situation, and that's, again, this is a different situation, I think maybe there's a key in there, that he had cultivated a kind of arm of this courageousness. And that was the right response to liberate India from England. And then I think of Martin Luther King, and often in his speeches he would say, if you don't fear death, then there's nothing they can do to stop us. And he went Yes, he did.

[75:56]

It's complicated. I think that kind of resonates with what Curtis was bringing up for me. It's a question of discernment. How do we practice with this? It is complicated. and it requires our careful attention. Please don't be fooled. Don't fall for a fairy tale about compassion. Well, Perhaps this has gone on long enough. Tomorrow is another workday. And I spent too much of the last workday overthinking this talk.

[77:07]

Tomorrow, the work leader says he's going to let me fire up that hydraulic log splitter. We'll see what arises. Thank you very much. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[77:52]

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