I have a question. Yeah. I'm still struggling with emptiness and self. I know the words get in the way and I'm floundering. I wonder if it could help me. Yeah, well, the implication when we speak of emptiness is that there is no There's nothing, there's no kind of inherent existence of the self. The self is a process that is created fresh in each moment by all of the causes and conditions of this moment. It's like sometimes the metaphor is used of a stream. Like I remember the question occurred to me, down at Tassajara, I was standing looking at the creek and saying, well, what exactly is Tassajara Creek?

[01:05]

I can point to it and say there's Tassajara Creek, but is it the water? Is it the banks? Is it the rocks? Is it, you know, it's changing all the time. It's always flowing and whatever Tassajara Creek is right now actually depends on everything that's happened upstream, you know. And that's sort of how our life is. Our life is produced by all of the causes and conditions that are coming together at this moment to produce this now as it is. Like you're asking me this question makes me a different person. And so... There's nothing extra there that, you know, I can put a little tag on called this is the self that doesn't change with all the causes and conditions. Because there isn't anything that doesn't change with all the causes and conditions. There's no sort of... Yeah, because of impermanence, everything is changing all the time.

[02:08]

So there isn't any sort of... extra thing here called a self. You know, in Abhidharma, which is the, Abhidharma means literally the higher Dharma, but what it is is the sort of analytical psychology of Buddhism in trying to explain. So they list, you know, all of the elements that create our life experience. the form that is the physical body and so forth, feelings of positive or negative or neutral, sensations of taste, touch, hearing and so forth, perceptions and consciousness. So they list all of these skandhas, all of these heaps and

[03:11]

The meditation practice that goes with that is to see that every aspect of our experience can be accounted for by these five heaps of physicality, emotions, perceptions, sensations, and consciousness. And you can't find anything else there that's called a self. The self is just the combination of all of these elements, but it's not something, you know, there's not something that's blanch, separate from all of these aspects of experience. And that's kind of the way we understand it in Buddhism, is that because of dependent co-arising, because we're all... arising fresh in each moment in response to all of the causes and conditions we are empty of some separate own being because it's this idea of being separate that I think is the point is to recognize that there's really no way in which we're cut off and separate from all other being and

[04:36]

So we have another thought occurred to me. We just do it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm this and not that, you know, like. Like the way in which I used to, I used to be kind of a militant feminist. And I thought of myself as a woman in a very dualistic way. That is, I'm a woman, i.e. not a man, you know. But that part is extra, you know. What I was going to say about this business of being connected with everything, what I love is this, the... vision in the Avatamsaka Sutra of Indra's net where the universe is depicted as a vast net and at each thread where the nets cross, at each place where the threads cross, each knot where the threads cross, there's a jewel.

[05:48]

And every jewel is reflected in every other jewel. And all the jewels are reflected in each jewel. And it's that kind of image that's trying to point out that there isn't anything that, this vast interconnectedness and interdependence of all being with all being that is the understanding of Buddhism. And that's the sense in which we talk about emptiness, that is we're empty of this separateness, this separate, here's a thing here, it's Blanche, and it's separate from not Blanche. I have a couple of questions. One is, could the word God be used in the place of emptiness? Yeah.

[06:56]

Oh gosh, I don't have Brother David's book here. He has... I really recommend if this whole realm of gratefulness appeals to you. I really recommend Brother David's book Gratefulness the Heart of Prayer and of course being a Catholic monk he will place God in there quite handily. I'm not Well, you know, the concept of God has not been big in my life since I've been a Buddhist for long enough now. Because it kind of doesn't seem necessary to me to describe all that is.

[08:01]

But on the other hand, I find complete concordance with these Catholic monks that I've been quoting. And, of course, God comes into that. But, you know, I mentioned that quote at the beginning. I wish I could remember the monk who said it. I really long to see my God. I ask in every prayer. But he can't come to visit me unless there's no one there. You know, he's also pointing at emptying ourselves of our self-concern, you know, of our self-involvement. And Brother David speaks of emptying ourselves all the time. He said the fullness that comes in with gratefulness or prayerfulness can't come in until you empty out this

[09:01]

notion of a small self, a separate self. And of course we tend to cling to that notion of a separate self. The Buddha speaks of it as one of the great sources of suffering is that clinging to an idea of a separate self. Because then we fear for it and we want to protect it. And really it's a process. It isn't a thing. But yes, of course, God can certainly be seen as the source of all. I mean, that's... Anyhow, as I say, you'll find it in... You'll find a good deal about God in Brother David's book as well as about emptiness and gratefulness.

[10:20]

I love it that... You know, that someone like Brother David, who's a Catholic monk, and I, who am a Buddhist, it's very hard. You know, when I go to these meetings of religious leaders from all denominations, Buddhism is the only one that's not a theistic religion. And it's just not... It's so hard for... Because all the Abrahamic religions, Judaism, Islam, and Christianity are all talking about the same God. But different developments, different cultural constructions that happened as time went on in different locations.

[11:28]

But they're all referring to, you know, they're all cousins. That's to me one of the tremendous sadnesses of the struggles between the Palestinians and the Jews because the religious source is the same. for all three of these religions is the same. And that all these wars are fought by all these related religions actually is painful. Embarrassing to ask this question, but I had a near-death encounter, and I didn't have a feeling you... I must have had these feelings you did.

[12:49]

I know I did at the time, but now I have fear instead. And so are these the two polar reactions that you find in the unconscious to... life and death and then can you say anything about that? Well I think that when when we actually can fully enter into our life wholeheartedly it may seem like a contradiction but I think that our fear of losing it is diminished by the fullness with which we engage in it while we're alive.

[13:49]

It just falls away, would you say? The fear just falls away? I think that the more wholeheartedly we engage with our life, the more the fear diminishes. That's my experience. Because there's any room for fear, perhaps? Well, I don't know if there's not any room or whether it's just that... I think what the fear does is actually get in the way of our fully appreciating being alive. And... when you allow yourself to fully engage with your life. I don't know quite how to talk about it, but...

[15:05]

It's sort of like... Brother David talks about it in his book. I noticed he was talking about only someone who's fully alive is ready to die. Which I thought was... Is not afraid to die. I guess, I guess, yeah. There's a poem by Mary Oliver that I like a lot, which is called, I think the title is When Death Comes. But I don't remember the whole poem, but I remember there's a line in it that says,

[16:14]

I want to be full of curiosity. What is it like, that cottage of darkness? And that really appeals to me is, we don't know what death is. Socrates said something like, to fear death, gentlemen, is to pretend that we know what we do not know. When we fear death, we act as if death is a terrible thing. But we don't know what it is. It could be the most wonderful thing. It could be an opening up into a whole new adventure. Because we don't know. It's a big mystery. And none of us are going to know until we get there. so I you know when I read that line in Mary Oliver's poem I want to be full of curiosity I really hope I can be this is a story about excuse me about oh dear famous Russian psychologist Pavlov Pavlov

[17:31]

who apparently had many disciples and they were kind of all around him as he was dying and you know waiting for his final word or whatever and it was snowing outside and one of his disciples apparently went out and brought him a snowball on a plate or something and he lay there looking at the snowball and he said oh so that's how it is I hope I can meet death like that. It's this great mystery that we really don't know and sometimes it's scary to not know but It's a great relief that it's not what we think it is because we're fearing something we're imagining.

[18:44]

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so we can make up all these stories to scare ourselves, but we actually don't know. And when I've been with people who are dying, and I have been with a number of people who are dying most recently, about 10 days ago, for the most part not going to struggle. It's been very peaceful. And they look, I remember the first person I was with when he died was my stepfather. And he looked so pleased and so happy. And I thought, really? Isn't that, I mean he had this, he'd been kind of not feeling well and then a little bit miserable and when he died he had this very pleased smile on his face. That was the first thing that began to take the fear of death, reduce my fear of death, was seeing both that it was very peaceful when he died and that he looked very happy.

[19:50]

He had been becoming sort of an invalid and not at all happy about his growing incapacity. I think he was actually quite relieved. But he had a very, you know, a smile on his face that looks like, oh, finally I got what I wanted. It was really surprising to me. But... Most of the people, the only person I was with who had a struggle was someone who was being very fearful. And as his, you know, as the time went on, his fear began to recede, and then he passed quite calmly at the end.

[20:57]

But for a while he was struggling with fear. Would you say... that fully engaging wholeheartedly in life, that you become more and more, less this small person that you're afraid you're going to lose, so maybe that fear passes them back. What are you saying with that? I don't know what the mechanism is, you know, I can't say that I know what the mechanism is, just that I notice that those people who live their life fully, maybe it's just you feel, well, I've done it, you know, I don't need to hang on to it because I've done it. Let's see what's next. You know, in the Tibetan tradition where they deal a lot with this time of death and discuss it a lot in the Tibetan book of living and dying, their understanding is that the moment of the death of this body is the most auspicious moment for...

[22:27]

Awakening fully to reality so that there is some real effort or intention on the part of people practicing in that tradition to try to be conscious when they're dying. That is to not get doped up with a lot of medication that just puts them out of it. And I have that feeling that I want to have as little medication as possible. Because I'm curious. I don't know what it is. I want to find out. Obviously I'm going to die. We're all going to die. The cause of death is birth. In a certain way. So it's a change. But we don't know what it's a change to. We just know what it's a change from, but we don't know what it's a change to. And obviously the physical body dies, but is there something that continues?

[23:31]

You know, my husband was really concerned about this, you know, and what continues? And so he went over to Nyingma Institute, asked somebody, it's a Tibetan tradition place over in Berkeley, And he asked this guy, and he says, never mind what continues life after life, what continues moment after moment? So he came home with a new question. Well, if there's no abiding self, if there's no fixed self, what continues moment after moment? And is that the same thing that continues life after life? I don't know. But anyhow, that was the suggestion. Whatever it is that continues moment after moment continues life after life as well. Yeah. As you were speaking this morning, you said life was fortuitous, it was a gift. Yeah.

[24:33]

Which makes me wonder about merit. Because if life is a gift, why do we have, why is there merit? And merit is something that comes after the fact. If you look back on it and you say, oh, those things were all meritous. And if you put merit before, it seems to make it an object that separates you from fortuitousness. Well, you know, in Zen, we don't talk about accumulating merit at all. As a matter of fact, you notice the dedication. I don't know if you've ever been here for a service, but if we chant a sutra, we do a dedication in which we offer the merit of chanting the sutra to, well, sometimes to the ancestors and to all beings. Just in case we accumulated some merit by chanting the sutra, we give it away. That's what a dedication is all about.

[25:38]

Or if we chant a sutra... In a memorial service, you know, we dedicate the merit to the person who's just deceased. Or, for example, I do a well-being service every morning. Ever since my friend Darlene got cancer, we started doing, a handful of us started doing a daily well-being ceremony in the city. And, of course, we get a big list of people who are sick. Everybody says, well, why would you add so-and-so to the list? Yeah. But we chant the Enmejuku Kanangyo, the 10-line verse to Avalokiteshvara 21 times, and then we dedicate the merit to the well-being of, and then we list all the people who are ill. But that's sort of the tradition in Zen, is that we do not talk about accumulating merit. We talk rather about offering the merit to all beings.

[26:41]

I'm not a good one to answer questions about merit. What I do think is that by cultivating wholesome qualities and refraining from unwholesome actions just makes life a lot more fun. And it makes life a lot more pleasant just not only for you but everybody around you. For example, I was in this conversation once about anger. I was in this meeting of this inter monastic dialogue with Buddhist and Christian monks at Gethsemane Monastery The Dalai Lama was there with an entourage and then there were monks from Korea and Japan and Thailand and Burma and Sri Lanka and then Catholic monks and then American Buddhist leaders from all of these various traditions as well, Vipassana and Vajrayana and Zen and so forth.

[28:11]

at some point this Korean monk got up and just lit into the Japanese monk for, you know, all the terrible things that Japan did in Korea. And why haven't, you know, why haven't the monks in Japan made the government apologize? But it was very angry and self-righteous kind of a... And then somebody else had upset, you know, well, I've had a lot of experience myself with self-righteous anger and I haven't found it very helpful. And then one of the Catholic monks got up and said, but surely anger is an appropriate response to injustice. And then the Tibetan monks said, no, no, anger is always an affliction. It's never an appropriate response. And it's going back and forth. And Brother David, actually, as it happened, was the moderator of this conversation. And he handed the microphone to Mahagosananda, who was there. I don't know if you know who Mahagosananda was, but he was probably the senior... monk in the Cambodian Sangha and he was out of the country at the time that the Khmer Rouge did this massacre of Buddhist monks.

[29:21]

And he led, at the risk of his life, led peace marches all around Cambodia and in the refugee camps on the Thai border and so forth. Having people chant the Metta Sutta and chant the part of of the Dhammapada about, you know, hate is never overcome by hate, only by love is hate overcome. This is the law eternal. So trying to bring some peace into the conflict there. So Brother David handed the microphone to Mahagosananda thinking, well, And everyone will agree if he knows anything about the response to injustice. I mean, he knows something about injustice, right? So, Brother David took the microphone and he said, when you know suffering, you know Nibbana.

[30:26]

Nibbana is the Pali word that we usually use, the Sanskrit word Nirvana, but it's the same word. And there was just silence in the room. Well, we all sort of digested that. And that was sort of the end of that conversation. But it was a very animated conversation. But on the part of the Buddhist monks, you know, anger is an affliction. It's always an affliction. No good can come of it. When someone asked the Dalai Lama, aren't you angry with the Chinese for what they're doing to your country? And he said, goodness, isn't it bad enough without adding anger? That's pretty hard for us, you know. I mean, this righteous indignation rises up very easily and very quickly in us. But in the Abhidharma, again, in this analysis of Buddhist psychology, it said that the function of anger is separation.

[31:36]

It pushes away. Since the nature of our life is connection, then separation is a real wound in our human life, this pushing away in separation. How do you heal? I would like your opinion. How do you heal self-anger? How do I? Self-anger towards oneself. Oh, anger toward oneself. I think that, you know, feelings are regret. You know, repentance is big in Buddhism. You know, when you do something and you realize, oh, I wish I hadn't done that. To use that energy to cultivate the possibility of not...

[32:42]

not activating that habit again is much more valuable than getting angry at yourself. I mean, I find if I want to allow myself to really be awake and present and aware of what I'm doing, if when I do something that I regret, If I castigate myself, if I jump all over myself and say, you know better than that, you shouldn't have done that. I'm not going to let myself notice as easily as if I say to myself, oh good, you noticed. Now you don't have to do that again. It's important to notice what we're doing. It's important to notice when we're doing something unskillful. But... If we then compliment ourselves for noticing so that we don't repeat the same mistake, we're going to allow ourselves to notice easier than if what we do is jump all over ourselves and call ourselves an idiot.

[33:57]

Or whatever unkind words you use when you get mad at yourself. So I find that... as far as training my mind not to go into those habits of anger and ill will and selfishness and the kinds of things that I want to cultivate, different approaches, I find the strategy of Trying to notice the beginning of the feeling, you know, before it's out of my mouth. That's number one. Try to see the arising of something. It doesn't have as much energy behind it when it's first coming up. And you can say, oh yeah, it's an old feeling. Okay.

[34:59]

Anyhow, if you can catch it before it's actually out your mouth, it's very helpful. If you don't catch it before it's out of your mouth, say, oh, darn. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say that. Or, you know what I mean? So often we say, oh, I wish I hadn't said that. I wish I hadn't done that. It's always after the fact. We're always doing that. As I say, if you respond by being angry towards yourself... and beating up on yourself, it's going to take you longer to notice. So if you really want to notice and actually change a habit that's causing you difficulty, then instead of being angry with yourself, you want to be kind to yourself and say, boy, I'm sorry I did that. I'm glad I noticed.

[36:00]

Thank you for your talk. And you spoke about how Brother David chose celibacy over promiscuity because he wanted to love everyone and know people intimately as part of himself, as part of the connection he felt with all beings. don't choose celibacy. And you want to love everyone. You need the same love. How do you deal with the fact that people respond to that kind of intimacy, that kind of expression of concern or

[37:12]

interest or joy with thinking, oh, they're interested, or he or she is interested in me. You want to be open to everyone. You want everybody to come in and to be there for everyone at the same time. You have to deal with all these levels of emotions and intentions, desires. Yeah, I think that in my own case it's clear to people that that particular kind of energy in my life is promised to one person. And so even if course it doesn't happen to me so much anymore, you know. I'm getting on.

[38:12]

Nobody's made a pass at me in a long time. But I think that you can be affectionate with people without them taking it as a sexual invitation and you can sort of make it clear to someone who comes towards you with sexual energy that it's already promised to someone else. It's not available to you. Well, if it is available, go for it. I don't know. I don't know if I actually don't know what your personal life is like in that sense whether you have have a committed partner or not but I do and so it's clear to me that I'm not available for other sexual encounters so it's not hard to to communicate that if that is your intention

[39:41]

I think that, I do think that the third precept on not misusing sexuality has something to do about trustworthiness in relationships. I guess it's fairly clear that I don't know anything about multiple simultaneous relationships, so I can't say anything about it because I've been married for 60 years, and I can't say that I haven't been attracted to anyone else in all those 60 years, but the one time I did get attracted to someone else, it got very messy very quickly, and I decided I didn't want to do that anymore. I don't really... I realized that I was hurting my... that Lou was my best friend and I was hurting him.

[40:54]

And I said, you don't want to hurt your best friend. And so I just dropped it. And it wasn't that I didn't have sexual feelings for the other person, because I did. But it just felt too emotionally complicated to me to... deal with. It didn't feel right. That's the only experience I have from my own experience. I can't give you any further information than that. interested, at the same time, very scared to ask my wish, if I may, that would be what we call as nirvana, or what I call it as nirvana and bliss, when everything is versus what I resist.

[42:02]

So it's a total two different, to me, it looks like a total different reality, the reality of suffering and the reality of total being, just being. And my way to understand how can I bring the two into one? And I see it as two to just thank you, thank you, thank you. Bring the two into... Yeah. Well, as Zuckiroshi used to say often, samsara and the yavana are one. They're not different. Excuse me, I have to call it, and I want to get this fiber going. is I think if we have some notion that Nirvana is something you know some pie in the sky that where all our desires are satisfied I think it's more that all our desires are quiescent

[43:34]

satisfied with things as it is. That is we're not looking for something that's not here. We're not looking for something else, but just this as it is. And I think that comes from really appreciating what is, really what is right here right now. If we can fully embrace and be grateful for our life as it is then we don't have to look for some nirvana at some later you know out there in the universe or up in the sky or whatever. When we actually come to appreciate what a gift It is to be able to experience this life and all of these beings with whom you're sharing this life.

[44:48]

back down to me of practicing loving kindness meditation in a certain kind of way of just really cultivating a feeling of appreciation for what is and seeing our connection with all beings. Can you help me? I really need help in appreciation of I need help in appreciating pain and suffering. I feel pain and suffering in pain and suffering, and I don't see that. I don't see that. I feel more of no. I'm pushing it away. I don't see the appreciation. I cannot see the appreciation. Well, is that your total experience of life as pain and suffering? suffering just ties in my heart ties my whole being it just crumbles for that I think then cultivating compassion for the pain and suffering that you're feeling and turning your attention compassion means being with suffering so turning your attention toward the pain that you're feeling and breathing with it

[46:36]

with kindness not with not pushing it away in getting rid of it but being with it and taking care of it caring for it where is this pain how can I help it what does it need from me rather than just trying to shut it away but how do you care for it This is what compassion is. Compassion is being with pain. With others who are in pain and with your own pain. With kindness and gentleness and attention and care. This is all I can offer you. It's meditation on compassion. What is it to be with pain, with kindness, gentleness, care, attention?

[47:40]

Breath after breath. Breathing with it and seeing if you can feel some... Because what happens is that we tighten up and there's a contraction. And so it becomes more and more painful. And in practicing with it, we can begin to soften and open. that contraction that happens and make more spaciousness around it. I feel exactly the same way this lady was talking. It's like constant pain being so inside that the heart is just becoming so small. And then pretty soon it's a complete shut up, shut down. And it's a complete... Inside. Yeah. Well, you know, in the traditional meditations on what are called the four, they're sometimes called the four unlimiteds, they're sometimes called the four Brahma Vaharas, or both of the great gods, or sometimes called the four social emotions, loving kindness, compassion,

[49:02]

Sympathetic joy, joy at the well-being of others, and equanimity or even-mindedness. The traditional meditation always begins with yourself. You turn your attention toward your heart in loving-kindness meditation, and you use some formulaic kind of meditation. May I be happy. May I be at peace. May I be free from suffering and the causes of suffering. May I have ease of well-being. But you begin with yourself. And you continue to practice in that way with turning your attention towards your own heart and wherever you feel that tightness. Until you feel some opening. And then you move out to those that are close to you, those that are near and dear to you, may they be happy, may they be free from suffering and the causes of suffering, may they be have ease of well-being and so forth.

[50:10]

You keep moving, always starting here and moving out in sort of concentric circles to those near and dear to you, to those that you're more neutral about, until you can come to the point of wishing well-being to those And it's most difficult for you to wish well. Until you can get to the metasutta, you know, may all beings be happy. All living beings, you know, when the weak are strong. You've probably heard the sutra, you don't need me to recite it to you again. The metasutta is sort of like the culmination of well-being meditation when it's moved out to include all living beings without limit. But it always begins in your own heart. It begins with you. And so that's where I would start. Wishing yourself happiness, ease, freedom from suffering and causes of suffering, ease of well-being, whatever

[51:27]

sort of list of well-being phrases come to your mind that you want to encourage in your heart. Yes? Sometimes Buddhist teachers speak about stories, like stories we create about the world we live in. I'm not sure I understand that concept. Oh. That jerk, he just stepped on my foot, you know. He just shoved himself right in here and got in my way. That's a story, right? And I keep telling it over again. Every time I tell it, I get more and more upset about it. And, you know, whatever it is I'm telling the story about, It happened yesterday in the line at the supermarket, you know, but I'm still ranting about it and still, you know, working up energy around it.

[52:35]

And it's time to let it go now. You know, it happened yesterday. Or, you know, someone says something unkind and you hang on to it for a week and every time you see them you get madder and madder and madder at them. And it happened, you know, or else you're going around saying, boy, I'm going to fix their wagon. Well, next time I see him, I'm going to give him a piece of my mind. You know, that's storytelling. That's building it up by going over and over and over whatever it is. You know, the jerk that cut me off in traffic, you know. What a terrible thing to do. Isn't that awful? I had to put my foot on the brake. the same time I hear that expression of express yourself fully and completely each moment.

[53:58]

How can I express myself fully and completely? When you express yourself fully and completely, you don't have to hold on to the idea of a self. You're just being yourself. Suzuki Roshi said, when you are you, Zen is Zen. But the thing What he's talking about is the you that includes everyone. It's not some separate me, Blanche Hartman, pay attention to me because I'm important. You know, it's just what you're genuinely feeling in your heart right now. Not some old story about who you think you are, but just what you're feeling at this moment. Who you are at this moment. Suzuki Roshi also used to say. You exist as an idea in your mind.

[54:59]

When I have an idea of. As I was saying. When I was a militant feminist. I had this idea. I am a woman. By golly. But it was very. Of course I am a woman. So what? It was, I am a woman in this very dualistic way of not a man and you know, you should treat me as well as you treat those guys and full of some big idea. Or I get the idea of myself as a good mother. And you know, one of the things that is very interesting to me is when I get upset by something, It's very often because the incident that upset me calls into question some particularly favorite idea I have about who I think I am. Like if this idea that I'm a good mother is one of those precious ones that I like, and my daughter says something to me about, you know,

[56:11]

didn't like the way I did that one, you know, anyhow, it brings into question whether I'm a good mother. I can get very upset by it because I'm holding on to this idea of myself. This is one of my little precious ideas about who I think I am. Or if I think I'm very, well, like I feel like I want to promote peace. I really want to be peaceful and loving and something. And I don't I get a really combative idea in my mind. It really upsets me because it really contradicts who I like to think I am. So the things that really upset me are the things that contradict not maybe who I think I am but who I like to think I am. Who I'd like to be. So that's not the self that I think when we say express yourself fully I don't think we're talking about this idea of self as much as genuinely your true feeling on this moment.

[57:21]

Your full response to this moment that comes from your heart is different than expressing some idea of who you think you are or how you'd like other people to see you or some idea you have about yourself. It's two different self that we're talking about expressing, I think. Does that make any sense? So maybe we should go see about... What time is lunch? Oh, I see. We've got a few more minutes. Yes. It's a beautiful Dharma talk about gratefulness and the awareness of being alive and the gratefulness that comes from that awareness. For this awareness, that builds attachment.

[58:25]

I love being alive. I appreciate the people and the life around me. And I want it to continue. And that strikes me as... perfectly natural that all through all of life and all of evolution is eat and be eaten. Every being wants to avoid to be eaten as long as possible, although, of course, it's inevitable. But my question is about attachment and the differentiation of self. It strikes me as perfectly natural that this awareness wants to preserve itself And the more gratitude I feel, the more awareness I have, the more attachment I also have to maintaining this awareness as long as possible. Well, perhaps so. But one possible outcome would be that you recognize your connection with others and so this

[59:34]

A particular preference for this awareness as compared to others maybe can become less sharp as you recognize your gratitude toward others for all that they provide for you in your life. There is this traditional meditation in the Tibetan tradition that everything you have comes to you through the kindness of others. And when you do that kind of, I mean, even like, well, what about that? I made that myself. Well, what about the tools that you used to make it with, you know? You didn't make those. Somebody else made those for you. What about the wood that you used to make it out of, you know? So I think that that kind of meditation, you begin to see that everybody is contributing to your well-being.

[60:34]

All beings are contributing to your well-being, so this valuing this one above all others may not necessarily be enhanced. Because you recognize the interdependence of it all. I was very moved. Someone came up to me after the talk who said that she, and it worries me sometimes when I talk about being so grateful for being alive, if there's someone who's deeply depressed and being alive doesn't feel like a gift to them, you know, it feels like a burden. So I was particularly moved by someone who came to me today. And so it worries me a little bit.

[61:35]

Well, what about someone who doesn't think it's so great to be alive? But this person said to me, you know, thank you so much because I realize that when I'm feeling depressed and when I want to die, then my gift to everyone is to not kill myself. moved by that. And that's so true. I mean, I have a friend who tends to be very depressed, and one of the things I had to say to her, her father committed suicide, and her brother committed suicide. And she becomes suicidal sometimes. And, you know, one of the things I have said to her in those moments is, don't do this to your daughter. Please don't continue this karma. And that's very helpful for her to remember she does not want to do it to her daughter what her father did to her. But to realize that even if you're feeling depressed and right at the moment it doesn't seem like such a great gift to be alive, can you offer the gift of your life to those who love you by not killing yourself when you're feeling that way?

[62:53]

It was something that would not have occurred to me. a great gift to her to tell me that the talk had had that effect on her. Because I sometimes worry about it when I'm speaking. Do I sound like just a Pollyanna? I don't mean to be a Pollyanna. Because I genuinely do find that I really do like being alive. I know that is that I was so glad that I didn't die when I had a heart attack. Depressed like your friend is, so she's not waking up. She's like you were saying in her cocoon and she's just... In those moments, yes. What is she going to do to wake up? Wake somebody up and say, get out of your little shelf.

[64:01]

This particular person is very artistic and one of the ways she gets out of her shell is to make something beautiful, which she can do. Which I greatly admire because I'm not really great at making things beautiful, making beautiful things. But she paints and she writes poetry. She has gifts to offer the world and that's what I try to remind her. Yes. For me, the exercise of surrender seems like an appropriate and possibly incomplete response to practically any affliction because continuing to

[65:04]

whatever it is, simply increases the pain and continues the pain and continues the oppression. So surrender has gotten me through things like addiction and possibly other aspects of my life. So surrendering to the addiction not in the sense of Surrendering to recovery. I think it works. I'm just using recovery as an example. I think it works in any aspect of your life where you are contributing to your own pain for your resistance and lack of surrender. Is that connected with compassion? Surrender, compassion, or surrender? Well, sounds like it might be quite a compassionate thing to do to surrender.

[66:12]

Giving in to ease. get into thinking that when I'm not surrendering, we can easily lose that compassion towards how we're struggling. I didn't hear the last thing you said. Well, I think it's as important to show compassion towards our resistance, not just the surrendering, because then there can be a judgment about what we're not doing. Uh-huh. Yes? Yeah, I was thinking. I have a son who is surrendering to using marijuana.

[67:23]

So I think the surrender needs to be the compassion towards the resistance, because he surrendered to the addiction, and he's feeling guilty as all get up. So I think that, you know, the compassion, the resistance, if he ever reached that point, would be what could heal him. I somehow think that your use of surrendering to the addiction gives... It seems to have given other people... I think what you mean by surrendering to the addiction is, okay, I am helpless with this addiction.

[68:28]

I need to get help. I need to enter... I need some help to not continue this addiction. And you're talking about surrendering to the desire for the addictive substance by just using. So that's a different use of surrender, and I think it's maybe a little confusing. Yes, ma'am, it's time for lunch? It's time for lunch. Okay. Oh, thank you. Thanks. You have until 1 o'clock, and then we have to set up for the ordination. Oh, ordination here, isn't it?

[69:25]

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