This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Here's what I'd like to try to explore together this morning. Sound okay? Yeah. Okay over there? I'd like to try to explore... Maybe it's a shift in consciousness. Maybe it's, as Dogen so frequently says, something gets stirred up, arousing away seeking mind. That in the midst of all the other agendas, intentional and unintentional, known and unknown, that the process of awakening, the process of being present for what's happening,

[01:03]

starts to have agency within our being, that it starts to become a frequently occurring experience, a rousing way-seeking mind. So I discussed this psalm in the first two classes using Dogen's fascicle, Shinjin Gyakudo, and then Then we went into Sushin. And then it was the same material, and then it was completely different. It was completely different because rather than just think about it occasionally in the midst of the usual activities of our monastic day, we delve down into living it, into being it, into experiencing it, on a continual basis.

[02:06]

And then, to use Dogen's nomenclature, those three minds, citta, hriddaya, and vriddha, are constantly being activated. And maybe more the emphasis shifting from our everyday activities, the hriddaya and vriddha, You know, the realm of not just hirdaya, not just our emotions, but, you know, the way we would say wholeheartedly. There is a kind of a center to our being, and that engages wholeheartedly. And then vriddha. That way in which, to use Dogen's phrase again, casting off, you know, chitta mind, there's direct experiencing.

[03:16]

Or you may have heard someone say once, experience the experience you're experiencing. The dropping dime, and there's a different sort of information. There's a different expression of what it is to be alive. It sort of reshapes the sense of self and it shifts the sense of self from a singularity to a plurality in that it's connected to all other being. So we delved on like that, and then Shashin ends. I know much to your chagrin. Don't worry, there'll be more. Much to your chagrin. It's what I'd like to do today, somewhat inspired by Dogen's

[04:29]

emphasis, emphasis or assertion that citta plays a valuable and significant role in this process of gyakido, realizing, learning, studying, some combination of all of that. And so what I did was I made up a bunch of questions for you to answer. I'm going to feed them to you one at a time, and you're going to pair up with someone else, and you're going to answer them. And here's the understanding with which you're going to answer them. What you say to your partner is strictly confidential. You do not repeat it to anyone, not even them. Unless they come up to you and say, what did I say the other day? Attempting to get away to any sort of, you know, I should come up with the right response.

[05:43]

As best you can, go beyond your own notions of how you've internalized that and how you might think What passes is okay in this environment. What you think and feel is a much richer teaching when it's not just in the service of compliance. Not only for you, but actually for all of us. So, if you could, pair up with someone. And this will be discursive. It won't be repeated questions. And if you want to use this space, you're welcome. No, stay in these two rooms, this room and this room.

[06:59]

Because I'm going to keep feeding you questions and you won't hear them if you're out there. So as best you can, if you can face your partner, you are actually going to interact with them. I know we've done a lot of interaction shoulder to shoulder, but this is face to face. Also esteemed in the Zen way. You sat for five days.

[08:11]

This is a series of questions on what did you learn? Can you speak a little louder? It works if I just face this way, right? She was sitting for five days and now... chance to reflect on what did you learn? And here's the first question. I'll say the question and then if it doesn't clear to you, let me try to clarify it. What did you learn about the yoga of joining awareness to the body, to the breath, to thoughts and feeling? That awareness in itself is a yoga. It's a process of engaging, making contact. And then what did you learn about that process?

[09:19]

Okay, is that clear? Yeah? No, it's discursive. One person will speak for about a minute or so. We're going to go through one, two, three, four, five questions to maybe 90 seconds. Is there a little bell anywhere? I will in a moment. Yes, I will. I described awareness yoga means to join you know what did you learn about the yoga of joining awareness to body to breath to mind and to emotions what did you learn about becoming aware of each of those attributes of human life okay

[10:38]

Okay, everybody clear now? So decide who's going first and then I'll ring the bell and you'll have 90 seconds. Okay, have you decided who's first and who's second? So then after you've decided, just close your eyes for a moment and close your mouth. So just pause for a moment after you've decided who's first. And remember, yes, primarily you're responding with citta, but you're also responding with rudaya and vridda. So I'll ring the bell and the first person can start to answer. And you have 90 seconds.

[12:14]

Thank you. So you just finished your thought? Krista, could you tell them they need to come back in because they can't hear from out there?

[13:21]

Okay, and then just close your eyes for a moment. Feel the reverberation that that talking created. And then I'll ring the bell and the second group can start. You need to come back in because you can't hear the bell from out there. Okay. Okay. the second person can talk. That was so funny.

[14:38]

with where it can be done. You know, I feel like, but you're just gonna get over it. You know, like, somebody, that's what it looks like. Like, what do you know? I feel like it's bad about it. I don't know. It's all a good part of it, but we just don't know. Again, just finish your thought and then close your eyes. Okay, so you should have finished by now. Okay, next question.

[15:39]

What did you learn about sustaining the resolve to be aware and returning to awareness throughout the day? Sustaining the resolve to be aware and returning to awareness throughout all the activities of the day. What did you learn about that process? God, God, leave it here.

[16:42]

See, I have a little bit. every day and [...] every day ... [...] Again, just finish your thought and then close your eyes.

[17:44]

And switch roles. I'm telling you that. I'm gonna say what what

[19:03]

This one. [...] Half. Half. Half. The next one is, what did you learn about the dominant patterns of your thoughts and feelings? The patterns of your thinking, the patterns of your feeling that tend to be dominant, the most inclined to repeat themselves.

[20:15]

This is a bit. I'm really glad that there's just that I can't imagine. What? What's your name? [...] and like... .

[21:22]

. . Again, just close your eyes. The dominant patterns of your thoughts and feelings. What did you learn about them? Please begin.

[22:28]

I stayed at the head of the hospital hospital. It was great. Just like, just close it out. Just like, just close it out. Just like, break down, right? Just like, break down, right? Okay, the next one is, what did you learn from those moments of palpable awareness?

[24:04]

What did you learn about that kind of engagement, abiding in that? facilitating that, palpable experiences of awareness. What did you learn from them? Okay, everybody okay? Who wants to know? I don't know. But I thought Jacqueline just told you. and can be felt, can be experienced. Okay. What did you learn from such moments that you had during Sashin? Okay.

[25:13]

Thank you. It's, uh... [...] I think that I got it.

[26:24]

Close your eyes. Experience what's being experienced. Oh, sorry.

[27:49]

Thank you. That idea of what it's on purpose is to get more tools and tools to get more [...] tools. Okay, last one.

[28:57]

What did you learn about attending to and opening to the needs and wellbeing of others? Attending to and opening to the needs and wellbeing of others. Thank you. I'd like to know how it's done.

[30:02]

So, we'll just, as we say, they're just talking. I think that's what we're talking about. That's [...] what we're talking about. Wow. Can I breathe? Anything shines? Obviously. Yeah. I think that there's a lot of fun. [...] I So it's like a project down here as a project.

[31:48]

Yes. Yes. It looks smooth. It's fast. I don't know what you say. Well, it's not my end. I don't know what you say. I don't know what you say. Well, it's not my end. I don't know what you say. I don't know what you say. Well, it's not my end. I don't know what you say. I don't know what you say. Well, that's my end. [...] I don't know what you say. I don't know what you say. Well, that's my end. I don't know what you say. I don't know what you say. Well, that's my end. I don't know what you say. Thank you.

[32:49]

Okay, before we all come back together, just reflect for a few moments on what closing statement or communication would you like to make to your partner and then do it. So this part's interactive. It's not what you can just, we're going to end it in a few moments, so both speak. Okay.

[34:16]

Thank you. Okay, if you could just come to a close and then come back into the main room, please. If you remember the term kanodoko, Kaz Tanahashi translates it as resonating with the way.

[36:28]

Nishijima Roshi translates it as sympathetic communication. And then think, relate that to just talking, engaging with another person, the person you just engaged with. And then contrast it to maybe what we might call a more usual exchange. You know, that... sometimes held within social constraints. You're in an environment where, oh, nice to see you.

[37:29]

How are you? I'm fine. How are you? Oh, I'm fine. Oh, that's lovely. See you later. Or the different modes of exchange. Somebody maybe you know very well and they say, how are you? And you take a deep breath and you go, how am I? Okay, I'm like this. And you give them the unedited edition. Or even you explore within yourself. And something in interacting, something in the Kano Doko can be enlivened by the authenticity, by the thoughtfulness, by the Hridaya, and even by the Vridda, you know, as well as the Citta.

[38:41]

And I wonder if you have... Any observations from so obligingly answering those five questions? Any observations from that process? It seems like a very Western psychological practice. A lot of talking, a lot of engaging in habituated forms that maybe through therapy or maybe through other practices we are tapping into. but it feels a little bit different than what Dogen was speaking. To you. Yeah, right. And yet each of you had the option to answer the question as you answered it.

[39:43]

We could say it's a different medium from sitting zazen, chanting sutras together. We could also say, but of course, We're Westerners. This is whether we know the full extent of it or even agree with it. We are the consequence of the influences in which we've grown up. Anyone else? Yes. It's a good point.

[41:05]

What brought it to my mind was Dogen's emphasis on citta. If you remember me saying earlier that when I first read that, I was quite surprised. I actually had a certain disbelief. And I looked up other translations thinking, no, I don't think that can be right. But actually, from all the translations I've read, it does seem that Dogen is giving citta a... He's validating its role in being who we are. So that's what prompted me to try it on. My experience was a little bit different to this exercise because we did talk, we obliged to your request, but within, what, 10 minutes or 20 minutes, I'm not sure, but I felt like I had more sense of my partner than I have known.

[42:12]

And I, of course, have seen him before many times, and we talked casually many times before. But these 20 minutes gave me so much sense of connecting and knowing. And my heart was just so glad that we had a chance, I had a chance. So, yeah, at the top, for me, the exercise was not so much, the chitta part was, yes, there, but the other parts were much more. poignant for me. The other parts being the Hidayah and the Riddha? Okay, thank you. John? I feel like I don't experience the same sense of surprise that you describe around when you first read that verse by Dovian on the Ephesus on Shih Tso or just underlying its relevance to the process of it.

[43:17]

I'm curious if you could Maybe articulate a little bit more, like what part of you finds that surprising or in what sense? Even to reference Dogen Zenji. Dogen Zenji, he placed a powerful significance on dropping off body and mind. And I think when we say dropping off mind there, To my understanding, in a very significant way, we're talking about dropping off citta. And I would say, probably everybody in this room, when they're doing zazen, if citta is the dominant experience, is thinking, I'm all caught up in my thinking. I need to whatever, to be experiencing more

[44:19]

thoughtlessly. And I would say throughout both the early canon and Zen teachings that you will see no mind, as in no citta, held up as virtuous, effective, and expressive of realization. So, that's what prompted my surprise. Just a second. Tell me if this is off-base, but the act of remembering, that's like cheetah, right? And often, like if I'm fussy in zazen or something, I will like use cheetah to remember someone who smiled and said, oh, that doesn't bother me at all. Or I remember their acceptance and nonjudgmental awareness that they led to me and that it's there.

[45:27]

So is that a way of using citta or is it too much doing? I think of it as a wonderfully messy investigation. You know, you could critique my proposing this exercise and say, but wait a minute, in Sasheen, weren't you quoting Bodhidharma as saying, recognizing? Aren't you asking us to recognize what happened in Sasheen? Isn't remembering it like reconstructing? And isn't that fraught with subjectivity and other things? And that's also part of why it intrigues me. And yet, and yet, I think... Part of the implication here is how does citta become an ally?

[46:45]

Since... if you think about it just in practical terms, our usual consciousness has a healthy or unhealthy dose of citta. So to be conversant with that state of consciousness and to have it as an ally, to have a skillful relationship with it, to engage it. If you think about it, we remember something, say something unpleasant. It's annoying. And then we're activated. That memory is enlivened. The annoyance is enlivened. It's endorsed with attention. But is the prime mover in that.

[47:49]

After a few moments, it's not the only thing engaged, but it's the prime mover. So if you think about it, you say, oh, citta is a very powerful aspect of consciousness. Well, of course it's helpful to draw on it, be skillful with it. Think of our daily ritual, you know. Like that last part where I was saying, you know, attending to the needs and well-being of others, you know, we could say that's the bodhisattva vow, you know, and that's, you know, not to say that's singularly an idea for us, but we chant it out loud. we chant that perspective of life out loud.

[48:53]

So I think in that regard, once we start to look at those kinds of behaviors, we see, oh, all the religions, well, maybe not all, but many of the major religions of the world involve citta in evoking the principles of that practice. Oh, sorry. Michael. I found it very cool to talk to somebody about the experience, really brought the practice home in a way. Yeah. To realize that somebody else goes through something like I did, dealing with a dominant contraction. What should you do with it? How do you deal with it? How do you do it? Because when we sit, we're in a way soft and closed. We're facing the wall, the white wall. And to realize that, oh, we're doing, we really are doing this together.

[50:01]

Yeah. I think it's a great point because when we're all sitting here so wonderfully formal and perfect, and then you look inward and you think, whoa, this isn't so perfect. Yeah. It isn't a big step to think, well, you know, is there something wrong with me? Whereas when we hear each other's experience, that's why I said strict and confidential, you know? Then there's... We go beyond perfection, we go beyond what the exterior might seem to present us, how it might seem to present us, and we hold a more vulnerable and I would say often authentic relationship to what we are and how we are.

[51:10]

And then to share that, I think, creates an intimacy, a trust. And I would say it creates the seeds of the bodhisattva vow. Like often we come out of sasheen and it feels like something has stripped away. We're more... We're more open with each other. And of course, we're relieved, usually. Relieved, Shashin's over. But there's also more space. There's more capacity to give and receive. And then if you pay attention, you can watch...

[52:17]

the reconstruction of a more usual or habituated self. And to use the phrase Kano Doko, it becomes more ephemeral, elusive, maybe less relevant. If you think of those moments in Shashin where you engaged part of the ritual and sort of spoke to you deeply. Oh, yeah, right. To practice the way of Buddha. Yeah. To practice the way of awakening. Any other observations or comments? For me, thinking about how it should definitely be helpful, kind of take it for granted that it's always going to be spinning sometimes out of control, sometimes more out of control than other times.

[53:22]

And I've found that bringing intentionality to your thinking, which is usually for me in the form of writing or talking especially, when you're forced to take all the spinning maybes and what-ifs and all these analyses and then direct them and focus them on... trying to explain the experience with the best words that you can if it's true, then that kind of can help quell all the other flutterings of random jitter. It's like using it in a direct way kind of allows you to drop it. Yeah. And that was why I brought in Kano Doko as the best interaction, you know? being asked to speak our truth to someone else and listening to someone else, that exchange can be evocative in a positive way.

[54:24]

You know, it can be Kano Doko. And it's immediately transformative. It's immediately transformative. Yeah. I think in a short time, you kind of feel how the dialogue kind of comes together, like two persons come to intimate. interaction with this engagement. I really appreciated my interaction with the constraints of not knowing what the question was going to be and then immediately having to answer it. So there was a certain type of spontaneity. And I'm seeing this person in front of me. really trying to allow myself to be as spontaneous and open as possible and see what that felt like as a speaker or when I was listening. In some way it's kind of like sitting, like you just never know what's going to pop out from that unconscious mind or something like that.

[55:30]

So that's really different. Just noticing how when I'm in some other interactions I might be planning more what I'm going to say or making a story. Exactly. I once did a day-long session with someone who was renowned for this. He volunteered it for our non-profit, Zen Hospice. And it was about planning our future. So he did all these exercises. And then in the middle of the afternoon, he says, okay, now you have five minutes to plan your future. And I was thinking, five minutes? And then... He took out a chalkboard and then he said, okay, what did you come up with? And he wrote all this stuff down. And then I think he just took a photograph of it as he'd written it. And five years later, we reviewed it. And each one of those had been relevant in the last five years.

[56:32]

And actually, beautifully, we had accomplished many of them. So it's very interesting, you know, how sometimes less is more. It's almost like the immediacy of it helps us get out of our own way. Just a second. If he doesn't have a lot of opportunity to talk about his language, so he's saying, first of all, he wants to thank me.

[57:36]

So he's talking about that, like, he hasn't been able to, like, just stop by, you know, like, just comparing the previous pre-spirit to this practice period? But what I'm getting very clear is that there are times when I feel that there is a lot of affection, a lot of love between the members of the hand. Something that he's noticing a lot this time is that this practice period that there is actually a lot of caring and a lot of love amongst the Sangha members.

[58:49]

His child He's felt like more relaxed this practice period, and he's saying that even... I'm not sure... I'm not sure how it is. But... Oh, so, okay. So people are... They're not rigidly holding... He feels that people are not rigidly holding the form as rigidly. So there's a loose leg is a little bit loose. Relax. But that doesn't make it weird that he doesn't feel like we are all being committed to the practice, that there is something that is serious.

[59:58]

Really, what? Yeah, okay. Thank you. Yes. Yeah, just as an observation, in talking, I couldn't really be so sure that what I was talking about was even my actual experience. Yeah. That there was an intimacy. Yeah. Sometimes when we delve in deeply, the mystery of the complexity of our human experience becomes more evident. And we can see that...

[61:01]

not knowing is not just a helpful admonition to not get caught up in your ideas, but it's actually part of what comes up for us. Whereas in our more usual mind, we ignore the gaps in awareness and our narrative just sort of fills in the blanks. And then as we delve in more deeply, the gaps the mystery of them is more evident. Vridha is not accessible to citta. It's not totally inaccessible, but it's not thoroughly accessible because it goes beyond words. And the medium of citta is very much conceptual. And, you know, where I'm going to take all this, be warned, is back into the realm of Buddhism and back into the realm of form.

[62:19]

And then rather than use the word emptiness, because it only expresses one aspect of shunyata, but form and shunyata, you know, form and formless. And when we move into formless, the repertoire of conceptualizing we have comes from the world of form. It's like when we hear a foreign language we've never heard before, on first hearing, it's just noise. I mean, if it's completely new language and not associated with one new... speak or know of. It's just noise. It's only familiarity that starts to give it particularity. So it's not unusual. In some ways, our practice is to learn how to tolerate and accept that mystery.

[63:34]

Because in the service of our own well-being, we may have a strong impulse to pull it over into the known world. And then we know. Now I know what's happening. Now I know what it's about. Now I know what to do. Now I know how to be okay. But Shishin in particular will invite us. into something deeper. And if you think about it, it's a wonderful contrast to citta. And to my mind, that's why so often you'll see references to where not knowing is esteemed. Not knowing is most intimate. I keep thinking about Chitta as being a prime mover.

[64:42]

What is it a prime mover of? What is it a prime mover of? This in a way is like the pivotal question. Is this a prime mover of the world according to me and the habits that are aggregated around that me? Or is this a prime mover of connecting and opening and engaging? And that's part of the inquiry. And asking, well, what have you learned? In a way we could say, what have you learned about shifting from citta as just this incessant reinforcement, recreation of... habituated definitions of existence, shifting from that to it being an agent of opening and connecting to greater being and inter-being.

[65:50]

And especially in the Zen school, to call that shunyata, the relationship between the two, the sandokai, That's what it is. It's a relationship between this formulated existence and that which arises when interaction, when experiencing, when dropping the adamant formulation and letting something new appear. This is This is what sparks, interestingly, almost paradoxically, this is what sparks an insight, an illumination that helps us see more clearly the conditioned existence and helps us open to what goes beyond the world according to me.

[67:03]

It helps us both ways. Yes? Can you speak that a little lighter, please? I just had a response to what you were just saying and what Bradley was talking about, too, where I definitely had this experience of, like, there's this question, and I was reflecting on my memory of what happened, and it seemed kind of... ungraspable or something you know like even talk about what was happening but somehow the way the questions were framed was really helpful and kind of gave gave a skeleton to the to the way that I thought about it and actually let me see the experience more clearly and in a way that I felt like well next session those questions will still be resonating it'll it'll inform my future experiences in a way that'll give them a little bit more clarity and not in a way that felt like an impoverishment.

[68:05]

It didn't feel like the experience has lost significance, but they actually ended up to me. And also, you know, in being skillful with citta, you know, pradaya and vriddha inform that skillfulness. If we're just up in our heads, you know, okay, what am I learning from this? Well, I'm learning, you know, then that can just be what's going on cognitively around all of this. And we could almost say, fortunately, our emotional life is chaotic. You know... And our Vrindha is mysterious. So fortunately, even though our mind might be busy tidying everything up, there's other forces at play that just won't tolerate that tidiness as a full expression of being alive.

[69:19]

And I think we've all experienced sitting very sincerely, very dedicatedly. I'm going to have pristine presence. And then watching. Even when the mind settles, you can watch it flicker in a fraction of a second. And of course, you can watch it take off or discover five minutes later that it has taken off and it has done a long journey. But if we hold that, in the fullness of human consciousness, rather than let our diligence and deep dedication conclude that somehow we've fallen away from the pure way of Zen. If we could hold it all, then this interplay

[70:27]

between form and emptiness, between form and shunyata, can be constantly evoked. We can start to see, like if you watch in Zaza, when a concept forms, very quickly there is an emotional value put on it. If you watch carefully, you'll see that as the formulation happens, the emotional value happens on it, the mind and the body respond. Usually, if there's grasping it, they're either subtly or not so subtly contracting.

[71:28]

And we can see the interplay of these states of consciousness. Maybe we can't see all five skandhas as discrete things, but we can see the interplay of them. So I'm wondering if you can talk about a little bit So we're, if you can speak to this question I have, which is, so like within this session and during the Shosan ceremony, we all felt like, I'm sure we all felt strong emotions come up and many of us expressed painful emotions during the ceremony and I'm sure during this interaction we were talking about things that came up for us that were challenging for us. or joyful or whatever.

[72:32]

And I'm just, I wonder like what you, how you usually, like how you think about relating to these kind of like emotional realms in the context of like trying to best help people like and serve people because I know that because Practice offers a particular prescription for how to work with emotions when they arrive. And I'm just wondering if there's any tools that you feel as though you would suggest being brought in to kind of adjunct that you know because it's like these things are coming up for many people that are so strong and I just wonder if it's like at a certain point does it become kind of like spiritual bypassing or you know like irresponsible in a sense to just have these like big things coming up and like witnessing them for people and then just to say yeah and then like

[73:58]

Yeah, I wonder if the most skillful thing is to bring in other tools beyond just practice. I'm just wondering if you could speak to that. Bring in other tools beyond just practice. I think I was just talking about a similar question. An example would be, I think you're talking about sitting with something. I missed a word there you said very quickly. Correct me if I'm wrong. Oh, correct if you're wrong. So I had a similar concern. It seems like the prescription you're talking about is just sit with and allow. and don't try to do anything else. Maybe an example, like a mundane example would be if you're feeling angry or some strong emotion comes up, a different approach would be, I don't know, go on a run or eat something. That's a practical piece of advice that's not just sit with and allow. It's do something about it that can actually change it. Is that what you mean? Yeah, and, like, sometimes, I mean, also, like, go see a therapist or psychiatrist, you know?

[75:04]

Or, like, I mean, it sounds funny, I guess, but just at what point, like, I'm just wondering just for my own, like, information as relating to people in practice, like, at what point do you say, like, in these kind of, in Sachin and in practice, like, that... this emotional experience that you're having is maybe more intense than the prescriptions of this practice can hold. It's very important to remember that that Zen doesn't have, okay, here's our handbook of prescriptions for how to practice.

[76:05]

And then if what's coming up can't fit within that, then go elsewhere. In a way, each interaction the challenges for both people is to meet what's happening fully. And how capable either person is of doing that strongly influences the situation. The modality of Zen practice, the potential within that is closely related to how thoroughly it's being engaged.

[77:08]

And that's why, in a way, I'm trying to set the stage for different components that contribute to being in the moment. And the more thoroughly that happens, the more potent. Now, in another way, we could say, yes, there are certain things that have come to be taken as, and I would say, within Western Zen. I mean, one of the characteristics of, you know, like I had the good fortune to practice Buddhism in Asia. there's much more srada, there's much more trust in the core of the tradition, the virtue of the tradition and the potency of the tradition, including its iconography.

[78:17]

I can't ever remember ever saying to, maybe I have, but I can't remember, ever saying to a Western practitioner, well, why don't you do 108 prostrations and, you know, call upon Shakyamuni to help you with this afflictive emotion. But what I'm trying to get at there is, You're always working within a certain context. Certain things can come to bear on that. And I think in interactions, there's an intuitive involvement. Certainly personally, I often don't know what I'm going to say, but in the intensity and intimacy of the moment, something comes out. Is it always fantastic?

[79:18]

I doubt it. It doesn't seem that way to me. But it can be very potent on relating to something that's been deeply ingrained. Now, outside the context of Shashin or Tassahara, certainly I would say to people, yeah, maybe psychotherapy would really help. Maybe... Doing more yoga would help. Maybe something else would help. Certainly wouldn't exclude that. Maybe I do have a trust in the potency of shashin engagement. Not to say that's going to work for everyone. For some people, it can prove to be completely not what they need in that moment. Is citta discernment?

[80:21]

Like, is that the discerning mind? Is citta the thing that asks, what's happening now? That can say, oh, what's happening now? Oh, an afflicted passion is happening now. Oh, the way I'm breathing now is not the way I breathe when I look at the stars at night. You know? Yes. Okay. Yeah. And it's not the entirety of it. And if you remember back, what I was saying was that Citta can be a little bit of a catch-all. When you look at the early canon, there seem to be different definitions of it. My own notion is that the way Dogen's using it includes all of that, because sometimes citta is used in a broader sense, both the capacity to connect the Hrdaya and Vridda. both intellectualizing, both, you know, like what's happening now can open up immediately to experiencing.

[81:26]

So that goes beyond just thinking. You know, so there's a variety of aspects. And that's why it says body mind is inevitably established by thinking mind, because thinking mind is what invokes, it's the only thing that... You know, I'm still stunned by that and somewhat skeptical of that statement, even though across the three translations you can think, well, inevitably. Does it have the capacity, like when you say what's happening now, does it have the capacity to open up to experiencing? I would say yes it does. does it inevitably open up to experiencing? I would question that. I'm thinking of like Hakaleen's poem. He says, humans are in essence Buddhas. There are no Buddhas outside of sentient beings.

[82:29]

Yes. Which would kind of imply the citta. No? No? Personally, I don't think that. I think that Awareness is an innate capacity to human consciousness. To be aware is innate. To experience the experience that's being experienced, we're fully equipped to do that. We're not lacking the correct Sanskrit term or the right level of flexibility or whatever it may be. That's how I relate to that. Okay, we're going to have to stop in a moment, please. You don't believe that chitta supports prutta? Oh, I do. Is it necessary for that mind, that awareness to exist?

[83:30]

Is chitta necessary? Are they the same mind? Well, if we say... To engage that question, we have to look at, well, are they the same mind? What's the word mind being used there? And that's why Dogen's saying, well, there's three minds. If we say, is citta an aspect of consciousness, then that consciousness can include all three. And we also have to remember, it's an arbitrary designation. This isn't an absolute truth, this designation. Within Buddhist teachings, there are many designations about the nature of mind and the constituents of mind. And the reason I thought of using this, because I think many of us, maybe most of us, have an experience of being caught up in our thoughts, having our feelings be strong,

[84:42]

and dropping down into something that feels below both of those. Yeah, that's kind of what I'm asking. It sounds like rita sounds almost like the base which citta arises out of, or even citta maybe opposing, whereas I'm wondering if maybe they're they're more of like a flow between the two or they support each other in some way. Yes. They're linked more intimately than opposition or not once supporting each other. There's a lot of pieces to that question you just asked. Yes, of course there's an interplay. I mean, anyone who looks at what's happening for a minute sees there's an interplay of thoughts and feelings and memories.

[85:50]

And if we look really carefully, we'll see even vriddha is influencing the moment. The experience is being formulated in a certain way. Before we just put vriddha... in there a little bit like the Western notion of subconscious or unconscious. You know, think back to what I was saying, that vriddha is also thought of as what you might call the wisdom of experiencing. And then I was saying, well, there's experiencing that's contained thoroughly within the world according to me, you know, where I'm supplying the adjectives, I'm supplying the definition of what it is, and I'm drawing conclusions and references about it to the experience where mind and body are dropped off and the world comes forth, existence comes forth.

[87:04]

The moment that experience stimulates vridha, So if we want to carry it a little bit further, we could say the aware consciousness or even the awakened consciousness. So it's a little different from the Western notion of subconscious or unconscious. And that's important for us to remember because then we just build a formulation which is a little bit like the Freudian formulation, which seems like... easily, there's this, then there's this on top of it, and then there's this. It's not quite that simple. Okay. I think that's enough of all of that. So thank you for answering those questions. I hope it didn't do you too much harm.

[88:10]

or didn't harm your practice too much. Fortunately, in a few minutes we'll have Zazen. Where I'm going to go next is... So trying to describe... this, what Dogen Zenji calls it, way-seeking mind. So as we continue with the practice period, whatever mind you're in, whatever state of conscious you're in, whatever is coming up, can there be way-seeking mind? And I offered, what's happening now? What is it to practice with it? Keep that close.

[89:16]

And just keeping it close, even just coming up with what's happening now can dispel some of the way we can get enchanted in subjective experience. We're just inside this story. This story is the entirety of reality. Just the acknowledging, the noticing and acknowledging can help a shift. And it also, it makes possible what is it to practice with it. So next time I'm going to talk about what makes possible. What is the attribute of commitment, resolve? What is the attribute of renunciation? What is the attribute of opening to interbeing? Classically, in Buddhism, those are the three qualities that facilitate and empower this learning mind, this learning being.

[90:31]

Thank you. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[90:54]

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