This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good morning. And yesterday, Webb talked about how he came to Zen Center driving a hearse. And I remember that hearse. And I also remember his motorcycle. And I also remember his friend, who he mentioned in passing. You probably, if you didn't know, you wouldn't have caught that. But Rev had a good friend from high school. And they came up sort of at the same time. And I'm not going to tell you who this person is, but I'll just call him Bob.

[01:03]

And each one of them had a goal. Reb's goal was to be the best Zen student ever. True. It's true. It's true. And Bob's ambition was to be the worst. That's true. Every court should have a jester. And Bob was, he was more than a jester. If he had just been a jester, it would have been jester. He made a gesture to be a gesture. It would have been okay, but he was over the top. Bob was over the top. But he parodied everything. Every situation he parodied. And I remember he was very smart, bright guy.

[02:13]

He could have been. If he really wanted to be a good sense to him, he could have. But he chose or had a compulsion to be the bad guy. So it's interesting, the good guy and the bad guy, and they were the best friends. I remember one time when we were at Bush Street, 1881 Bush Street, Sokoji, across the street, eventually we had rented some of the houses for the students. And sometimes we would eat breakfast at the house. and in a formal way, like we do Orioki. And one time he was the leader of the breakfast. And when the breakfast was finished, he'd pull out a cigarette and light it. And he was parodying himself, lighting a cigarette and smoking.

[03:17]

It was wonderful. But I don't want to tell you any more about that. I just think it's interesting but you know when I give a talk I don't really know where the beginning of the ending is because it's always going on you know and so what I appear with is what's in my mind at the moment because I've always got a talk going on and I don't know where to stop or start but I'm I have another story about Sokoji and Suzuki Roshi and those houses across the street. So one time, Suzuki Roshi and Katagiri and myself and somebody else, I can't remember who, wanted to have breakfast after Zazen.

[04:21]

So we went across the street to one of the houses and we thought it was set up. But there was no furniture. And there was... You know, nothing to, no food and no furniture. And maybe there was a little bit of something. But, so everybody wondered, what were we going to do? Suzuki Roshi saw the newspaper outside, an old newspaper outside. So he got the newspaper and he opened it up and he took a sheet out of the newspaper and he placed it on the floor. And it was like, this was, The way he did this was like setting the table for the Buddha or setting the table for the emperor or something in such a beautiful way, very simple, but very mindful and careful, and treating the paper as if it was a valuable silk tablecloth.

[05:24]

And then we collected some things here and there, some... implement some chopsticks or something and found a little bit of food here and there and we all sat down and had this wonderful meal and it was just like it always impressed me as this is the epitome of Soto Zen this simple act just making something out of nothing making the most wonderful banquet out of nothing out of the simplest discarded materials so to me that's always been the epitome of our practice using whatever is at hand to create something to create our practice we don't need something wonderful and valuable according to usual standards because everything is valuable there's no need to

[06:27]

I think that Soto Zen has become kind of classy in Japan. And Suzuki Roshi didn't like that. He said, we shouldn't have anything fancy, not try to make something fancy. He said, Tasahara is a wonderful place, but if we lose it, it's OK. We shouldn't be chauvinistic about our practice or about our place or trying to preserve putting too much energy into trying to preserve our surroundings. But pay a lot of attention to our practice and pay attention to the students. The students come first and the place comes second. So his understanding was that Wherever you are, you can practice.

[07:29]

You don't need to have the finest palace. He said if you go to Japan to practice, they may like you there and may stimulate them to build bigger monasteries or more elaborate practice places. But you don't need all that. finding our way where we are is the most important thing. Just finding our way where we are. That's the essence of our practice. So, at one time, after Suzuki Roshi died, and Richard became... the abbot. And then he had his falling out because his ego became, he thought that he owned Zen Center, and he felt that Zen Center was his fiefdom.

[08:45]

And so that turned out to be not correct, and he had to leave. And then Kadigiri became abbot for one year. And then Reb became Abbot, and then I became Abbot with Reb. And at that time, Zen Center was actually in a shambles because when Richard left, because everyone was so attached to his, he worked it so that everybody had to be attached to him. Of course, it all fell apart. And some of the older students stayed, and some of the younger students stayed, but the students in the middle left. Not all of them, but there was the excluded middle, as we say in Buddhism. But the middle class was devastated.

[09:52]

And the middle class, the students who had been... coming up and were ready to take responsibility and positions, they weren't there. And it's been years and years, taken years and years to create a middle level of students in between the older members and the newer ones. And to me that was one of the most difficult things about putting Zen Center back together again. The students who were very dedicated and on their way to being teachers. So we've always been trying to make that work again.

[10:54]

So Reb and I, when we became abbots together, agreed that we would be over all abbots. We wouldn't have any special place that was our place. And that whenever we made a decision, we would never make a unilateral decision without consulting the other. We'd always make decisions with the other one's agreement. And that worked really well. And sometimes I would make a unilateral decision and he'd come down on me. And sometimes he would make a unilateral decision and I'd come down on him. But that was rare. We always agreed with each other when we made a decision. And so I think that it really helped to stabilize Zen Center during that critical time. you don't know, unless you were there, you don't know how difficult it was.

[11:59]

But I didn't want to talk about that. I just want to mention it. So at that time, you know, Richard was the teacher. And nobody else had any real authority. But when Zen Center started to come back together, instead of having one leader, we started making decisions by committee. So there was some wonderful aspect of having just one leader, which meant that decisions got made. Good or bad, decisions got made. And it was Silas and Ananda that found Page Street, and Richard discovered Tassajara and Green Gulch.

[13:13]

And I remember when he wanted the board to okay us taking on Green Gulch. So he had a meeting of the board and told us about Green Gulch, and that Nature Conservancy was holding it, and that Mr. Real White was agreeing that it would be nice for Zen Center to have this place. And so Richard invited us to make that decision, and he served as this incredible strawberry shortcake. And nobody could say no. That was great. But Zen Center was incorporated as a corporation soul at the time, which meant that one person was the corporation. It's like the Catholic Church. So we had to create a different kind of

[14:25]

incorporation, which gave, took away that sole responsibility. So, but, you know, everything has its good side and its bad side. So, there was so much good, you know, that Richard created in Zen Center, and the other side, so much bad, you know. Kind of reminds me of Reb and Bob as one person with two sides, the good and the bad. But we're all like that. We're all both good and bad, except that we have to be very careful how we use our power. I had a Doka-san with Suzuki Roshi one time, and I asked him, what is power? He said, don't use it. That was a turning word for me.

[15:28]

Every time I asked him a question, he gave me a turning word. I said, true. I would come to him with a question, and then he would give me a problem out of the question. He would never answer my question. He'd give me a problem out of the question. And then he'd laugh. He said, oh, I'm sorry. So sorry. You came to me with your question and I just gave you another problem. He loved it. But he did it with humor. He would always give me a problem with humor. But he was tough and soft at the same time. In the commentaries, Sikida will say, holding fast and letting go at the same time. That was Sikiroshi.

[16:34]

Hold fast, give you a problem, at the same time let go. Now go and deal with it. This is your problem, go and deal with it. So it was always a gift. He would always give us a gift. I'm sorry, haha, I just gave you another problem. So, I remember that we started the study center. Since there was no main teacher, we decided that we were the older students would start teaching classes. So we started teaching classes and we started what was called the Study Center and little by little we created a wonderful study program at Zen Center and we all became the teachers.

[17:54]

Some of us more so than others. And then when we had dharma transmission, we started giving dokasan. Richard was the only person that ever gave dokasan at Zen Center. But when we had dharma transmission with older students, we started giving dokasan. So I just want to talk a little bit about what that is. I think it's different for different teachers. You know, there's no teacher. We have stereotype of teachers. Stereotypes. You know, Rinzai, you go... But those are just stereotypes. And people look for those stereotypes. And Suzuki Roshi didn't like that. He called that the art of Zen.

[18:57]

We should practice real Zen, not the art of Zen. The art of Zen is where you put on a face and pretend to be a great Zen master. But he warned us against that. But how to be real? When you're facing students, how can you be real? How can you be yourself? So the teacher wants the student to be themselves. So how the student is themselves, how you allow the student to be themselves is how you allow yourself to be yourself. I always think about it as not answering questions, although In the Rinzai style, people have koans, the students have koans, and they come and visit the teacher, and the teacher says, and you give the teacher your name and your koan, and you're waiting for your response, and you can't think of it, or you say something, and he rings the bell, and you leave.

[20:17]

But our Dokkasan is different. Soto Zen doesn't really, in Soto Zen, it's not so common in for the teachers to have Doka-san. I remember Kadigiri Roshi saying, I don't know what to do. Believe it or not. Suzuki Roshi didn't do Doka-san that much. He did Doka-san during Sashin's. But usually, if he had a question, he'd just sit down and talk. So it was not common for him, for us to go to Doka-san with him, although it did. We did do that. But But I remember when we were going to Dokusan with Suzuki Roshi, and he's this little guy, about five feet tall, and he's sitting down, he's even smaller, but he filled up the whole room. He just felt that he totally filled up the room with his samadhi. So, for me,

[21:22]

It's where the teacher's samadhi meets the student's samadhi. What we say is important, but how we meet is the most important. How we actually meet is the most important thing. So there's your samadhi and my samadhi, especially in Sashin. And then the way I think about it is as light. Samadhi has many explanations, but for me it means light. When we sit in zazen, what are we expressing? We're expressing illumination. And as Sashin says, goes on and we become more concentrated, the illumination becomes stronger and stronger.

[22:28]

At the end of Sashin, when we all sit facing each other in the last period, it's just incredible illumination. So for me, Doka-san is your light and my light, and the light that encompasses both. My light disappears, your light disappears, and it's just illumination. This is also when the essence of Dharma transmission. You say, well, what's transmitted? Nothing is transmitted. But the illumination of the student and the teacher becomes one illumination. We say, since there's nothing transferred, it's simply we occupy the same space. There are some wonderful koans about this.

[23:47]

I talked about one of them. in my last talk. There are two of them by Master Yunman. But I realized that my last talk, I didn't finish it. I talked about the introduction, and I talked about the poem, but I shouldn't talk about the koan. So today I'm going to talk a little bit about the koan. But I'm going to remind us about it. This is by... give me the introduction again, because it's Master Yunman's one treasure. One treasure. Master Yunman said to the assembled monks, between heaven and earth, within the universe, there is one treasure. It is hidden in the mountain form. you take the lantern, sorry, this is the case, it's not the introduction, you take the lantern entering the Buddha hall, and this last sentence is interpreted in many ways.

[25:00]

He said to the assembled monks, between heaven and earth, within the universe, there is one treasure. it is hidden in the mountain form. You take the lantern entering the Buddha Hall, and in your return, you carry the lantern, you carry the triple gate on your lantern. That sounds crazy. What? Yeah. I'll explain it. So Master Yunman said to the assembled monks, between heaven and earth, within the universe, There is one treasure. So heaven and earth, what's that? We say where heaven and earth come together, there should be no gap. Well, you can say between Buddha and you, there's no gap.

[26:07]

Buddha is heaven. Earth is you. Between heaven and earth, there's no gap. Between you and yourself, there's no gap. But there is one treasure. Within the universe, there is one treasure. It is hidden in the mountain form. Mountain form means you, this body. This body-mind is the mountain form. As someone said, we climbed the mountain. Yes, we climbed the mountain. But inside the mountain... there is that gem, or, you know, it's called pearl, one bright pearl, it's called a gem, or it's called a treasure, or it's called light. Light is another name for Buddha nature. In Dharma, light means Buddha nature.

[27:12]

And it's not the light that is the opposite of dark. Master Dogen has a wonderful talk on what he calls, which is called Komyo. Komyo means light, but it means radiant light. It's translated differently. Translated radiant light, or it's translated as... Divine light. Divine light. I like divine light, but divine light means divinity, which is a little antithetical to Buddhism. But it's a kind of fine line. Divine comes from Dhyana, the lady with the bow and arrow. But it means divinity. And it has to do with deity.

[28:13]

But it's right on the edge of falling into divinity. So people use the term radiant. But radiant can be, you know, everything is radiating something. So that's good. We're all radiating something. And actually everything is radiating light. That's the nature of everything, is to radiate light. But light is also dark. If you only see light as the opposite of dark, then it's not the light that we're talking about. Dogen says in Komyo, it's not blue, red, yellow, or what you think it is. And if you try to define it in some way, That's not it. It eludes you. But yet, it's it.

[29:16]

Everything is komyo. So maybe komyo is a good term without being translated. So he says, Master Yunlin says, you take the lantern entering the Buddha hall. Well, the lantern is you. radiant light and you put the triple gate on top on your return some people say you take the triple gate into the zendo and then the triple gate is like in a monastery like in China they have the monasteries have a triple gate the central gate and then the two side gates And the monastery itself is the Nirvana place, the place of Nirvana.

[30:18]

And you go through the gate to meet with, to enter the palace of Nirvana. So each one of those gates has a kind of meaning. The first gate is the realization of interdependence or emptiness. And the second gate is the realization of compassion, entering the gate of compassion. And the third gate is entering the gate of sincerity and non-backsliding. So you take your light into the zendo and when you sit zazen you become the vessel for radiating light and then when you return, when you leave the zendo, you bring that into the world.

[31:40]

Suzuki Roshi, when he was talking about Ginjo Koan, he said the meaning of Ginjo Koan is how your life is expressed in the world as you leave the Zendo. So This companion koan, number 86, Blue Cliff Record, is called Umman's Everybody Has Their Own Light. These two koans I see as companion koans. But before I talk about that, I want to talk about just one treasure a little more. I like to talk about Aesop fable when I talk about this one treasure so the fable goes like there was a farmer and the farmer had three sons and the farmer was getting old kind of like me and he said boys I'm going to pass away now

[33:21]

But I want you to inherit the farm. It's yours now. But I want to tell you something. On this land, there's a buried treasure. And if you can find it, it's yours. And they were going to say, well, where is it? And they died. Oh, my God. So the boys looked at each other and they said, well, let's start digging. So this is quite a big expanse of land. And they took their shovels. They didn't have backhoes in. They took their shovels. They started digging, digging, digging. And I got the whole place and no treasure. And they looked at each other and said, let's try once more.

[34:23]

So, digging, digging, digging. They dug up the whole place again. No treasure. They looked at each other and said, one more time. Okay. So they dug and dug and dug. No treasure. And they said, well, it's getting to be springtime. We have to do the planning. So, they went to work and planted the whole place. in this beautiful loamy soil that percolated like crazy because of all their digging. And then at the end of the springtime, they had this enormous crop, the best crop they've ever had. It was just like tremendous. And they looked at each other and said, maybe this is what the old man was talking about. That's my favorite story from Aesop. That could be a story from the Lotus Sutra.

[35:30]

You know, we keep adding stories to the Lotus Sutra. My other favorite story is about the sun and the wind. The sun and the wind look down on the earth And I saw this shepherd. And it was a chilly morning, and the shepherd had his coat on. And the wind said to the son, hey, which one of us do you think could make the shepherd take off his coat? And he says, I don't know. And the wind said, well, let's see who can do it. And the son said, OK, you first. So the wind came on. And the more he blew, the more the shepherd clenched his coat on.

[36:33]

And they said, I can't. I don't know. Why don't you try? And then the son said, OK. The son beamed down on the shepherd. The shepherd said, it's really getting hot around here. And he took off his coat. So, back to... Back to Master Yunman. Everybody has his own light. So, Engo says, Engo is introducing, he said, controlling the world, he allows not the least speck of dust to escape. That's like holding fast. He cuts off the deluded streams of thought, not leaving a drop behind. If you open your mouth, you are mistaken. If you doubt for a moment, you'll miss the way.

[37:34]

You have to be right there. Tell me, what is the eye that has pierced the barriers? And then he says, see the following. And this is the main subject. Master Unmon spoke to his assembly and said, Every one of you has your own light. If you try to see it, everything is dark. What is everyone's light? And later, in place of his disciples, he said, the halls and the gate, actually, he said, the temple storeroom, temple gate. All the translations are different, but temple storeroom, temple gate. and the Buddha Hall, and so forth. And then after that he said, it may be better not to say anything, even if it's a good word.

[38:38]

So, I'll read it again. Mr. Uman spoke to his assembly and said, Everybody, meaning each one of you, has your own light. If you try to see it, everything is in utter darkness. What is this light? Later, in place of his disciples, he said, temple storeroom, temple gate, and the halls, the main gate and the halls. And he said, but it may be better... not to say anything, even if it's a good word. So people don't usually talk about this. Light, you know, has always been the main subject of Buddhism, but people don't usually talk about it. Virochana is the great deity of Buddhism, who sits on his seat and radiates light.

[39:49]

In Sandokai, Sekito says, within light is darkness, within darkness is light. Don't see it as you think it is. Don't make a statement about what you think it is. Just be it. It's like light and dark. succeed one another like the foot before and the foot behind in walking. But yet, within the darkness there is light, and within the light there is darkness. And Suzuki Roshi talked about this once in the Sandokai lecture about light and dark are the same thing. They're not, although they're two, they're really one. It's just a matter of When you come out of the closet, everything looks light.

[40:58]

And when you go into the closet, everything looks dark. But when you get used to it, it all looks light when you go into the closet. It's just a matter of degree, a matter of comparison. When I had been doing Dokusan in the Kaisando, and just a few little lanterns, and when you go in, it looks very dark. But when you get there and you sit down for a while, it's very light. Light and dark are, although they have a certain reality, it's a comparative reality. And, of course, we have to work with those two aspects. But fundamentally, they're not different. Just like fundamentally, as Suzuki Roshi said, birth and death are the same thing.

[42:04]

So when we do talk about dark and light, sometimes it means birth and death or life and death. I like to use the terms birth and death because life includes both birth and death. So if you say life and death, it's okay, but for me, I'd rather say birth and death because life includes both birth and death. So I remember Chino Sensei gave her a short little talk. He said, Zazen is being a vessel for light, a vehicle or a vessel for light.

[43:11]

That's the meaning of Zazen. And I totally agree with that. I always feel that way when I said Zazen, and especially in Sashin. He used to say that you could see halos. He could see halos. He said, when I walk around the Zendo during Sashin, I can see halos. But when you look at the statues of Buddha, well, this one has a halo. It's right there behind his head. So he's always pictured that one. And I remember when I was an art student, although I always did abstract painting, but not always. And I would copy paintings. There was a period when I was copying paintings, which is a wonderful way of learning, getting into what the painters were really doing.

[44:18]

And I remember Giotto. He did frescoes, wall paintings. And I remember copying one of his paintings. And he anticipated Picasso because he would paint these faces that were front views as well as side view at the same time. You could see the side view and the front view at the same time. But in any... She had this painting of these two saints meeting with their halos. And then one halo between them. I was very impressed with that when I was painting. And it's always stuck with me. So there's certain symbols, certain things that we carry with us.

[45:22]

And then they expand and become mature with us. So anyway, this is the way I think about it. And I totally identify with Master Yunmin. Yunmin was also one of Suzuki Roshi's favorite Zen masters. And also we have Master Hung Jiu, Cultivating the Empty Field, that book that Dan Layton translated with a Chinese translator. And he says, take the step back to the center of the circle where light issues forth. He also says, take a step into the center of the circle of wonder. Wonder has the meaning of letting go of everything.

[46:26]

Wonder means I can't say anything. I can't think anything. There's just this. And Dogen was very much influenced by both Hangzhou and by Umman's koan. So Umman's koan is actually a commentary on this koan of Yunman's. And then his student, Eijo, ko-un-eijo, not koan-eijo. We always say koan-eijo. Ko-un-eijo. was very much impressed with this koan, among others. He had a nice commentary on the koan.

[47:35]

Shakyamuni and Maitreya are both servants of another, or both servants of that one. Another or that one can come from the same character. What is that one? Or who are they the servants of? It must be something pretty wonderful. So Ajo says, of course, they're the servants of Komyo. Buddha nature. I have my favorite poem of Hung Jiu. It goes like this.

[48:40]

He's talking about Zazen, actually. He says, when by the side of the ancient fairy the breeze and moonlight are cool and pure, the dark vessel turns into a glowing world. I'll read it again. When by the side of the ancient fairy The breeze and moonlight are cool and pure. The dark vessel turns into a glowing world. There's a few minutes for questions, if anybody would like to ask a question.

[50:43]

Hi. Now, when I heard about this auspicious gathering, a desire to come here arose in me. And then I read the materials, and I thought, Maybe they're looking for people who have more advanced bodhisattva practice than myself. And I worked myself up into a bit of a tizzy. So I gave you a phone call and talked for a few moments, and you listened, and then you said something like, well, Susan, you don't need to worry so much, I think. You know, when the time comes, if that's where you are, that's where you'll be. And I think then you said something like that.

[51:50]

Yeah. Well, it's always good to have humility. You've been practicing since the early 70s. You spent so much time at Zen Center. And to feel that maybe you weren't qualified. Is that the right word? My definition of humility is not thinking more of yourself than you really are and not thinking less of yourself than you really are. but just knowing exactly who you are, which means you don't know who you are, of course. But it means you know who you are, you know who you aren't. You're not confused.

[53:02]

Enlightenment is, even though I don't know who I am, I'm not confused. Say again, please, what the three temple gates were. The three temple gates. Well, my limited understanding is that the main gate is I did have it written down, but I can't read it. Realization of interdependence. Say that again? Realization of interdependence. Realization of interdependence, yeah. And then the second gate is the realization of compassion. Yeah. And the third gate is sincerity. Yeah. Because the triple gate is really us. Although it's the monastery.

[54:07]

This is the monastery. And so this is where nirvana resides. And the gate to nirvana is realization of interdependence, realization of compassion, and realization of wisdom. What did I say? Sincerity. Sincerity, yeah. No backsliding. No backsliding. But there are many other gaits. Anybody else? Yes? What is the right balance between just practice and actual studying of the text? Yeah. Reb was talking about that yesterday. The text leads you to practice, but the text itself is not practiced.

[55:15]

We say this, the first principle and the second principle. First principle is what you do. The first principle is your actual immersion in practice. The second principle is your idea about it. The idea is like study, right? But study It keeps us focused on practice. It's easy for, you know, to wander. So study is really important because it keeps us focused and also generates samadhi. Because Sekito, I think it was, was enlightened by reading Seng Chao, When he was reading Seng Chao, Seng Chao was a disciple of Kumara Jiva, Chinese disciple of Kumara Jiva, who was considered the second Kumara Jiva.

[56:19]

Kumara Jiva translated from India, he translated most of the texts into Chinese. But Suzuki Roshi said, although there's the first principle And the second principle, when you really are practicing, the second principle can also be the first principle. But study is really important. Without study, it's just easy to wander into not verifying what you're doing. Study verifies our practice. When we begin to practice, never mind studying. Just practice. Just throw yourself into the house of Buddha, so to speak. And then at some point, you start getting interested in the literature because the literature verifies what you're doing.

[57:22]

And you begin to see that you're not alone in what you're doing and that the ancestors are given all this wonderful stuff. They've handed us all their treasures, and if we ignore all that, it's very disrespectful. That's one way to think about it. But it's also, they're saying, here, here, here. They say, no, I don't want that. But we build on the past. even though our practice is in the present. Your last talk about inmates and meeting them, what was that experience like?

[58:28]

What did you think they were feeling? Yes. As you remember yesterday, The day before I talked about my experience being on death row. And nobody meets them. Nobody visits them. I mean, it's very rare. I think the only people that can probably do this is chaplains. And so for somebody to take the trouble to actually recognize them is a big deal. Big deal for them. If somebody really wants to come in, feels compassion enough to talk to them and how they're feeling, who they are. And myself, my own personal feeling, I like difficult people. I'm always drawn to difficult people. And I was really happy to be there.

[59:35]

Because I was really curious about everybody, you know, and how I could help them in some way without... I don't know about helping, but how could I just... Huh? Was there repentance? Repentance. I think Sazen is repentance. You know. I think they would like to find... Some people do and some people don't. There was one person in particular who was a black guy. He had been there for 30 years. He was from California. And he went to Raleigh, I guess it was, when he was a young man. And he wanted to buy some dope. And the only person that was selling it was the sheriff's daughter. And she wouldn't sell it to him, so he got enraged and there was something and murdered her in a very brutal way.

[60:44]

So he ended up on death row. But he had a Buddhist practice. It was Nam-myoho-renge-kyo. And he practiced that all the time. And satsazen. And I really liked this guy. I could feel his realization. I could really feel his realization. There was just this connection right away between us. One guy wouldn't say anything. He wouldn't talk, but he was there. And the other guy was an escapee. They put him back. I don't know what he did. I didn't ask anybody. what they did, except I did find out about this one guy later. So it's very intriguing. I like the challenge of difficult people. I always have a lot of difficult students, and I like them.

[61:51]

And I'm difficult myself, even though people think I'm not. And I got an invitation the day before I came down from the association of people that are interested in the prison to come to a meeting. But I wasn't about to go to North Carolina to go to a meeting. I feel like there's a relationship between my lights and the objects in my world and how I can see those objects and people as well. And I had this experience where a good friend of mine here was telling me that they had been suffering in a great way for like the last month, but I didn't see it. It didn't occur to me.

[62:52]

It wasn't in my world. And so what good is our life if we can't even see the people that we're close to? Well, what good it is, it's no good. But that doesn't mean that you're bad. How can we develop our light in such a way that we can actually see what's happening in front of us? That's your koan. That's your gift, koan. It is, truly. Just keep asking that question. I can't tell you. You have to bring it up from yourself. How can I do that? That's called practice. Great. Thanks for that. We all miss something, right? So the more you are aware of that and want to do something about it, the more mature that you become.

[64:00]

Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click giving.

[64:18]

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