I am surpassed, penetrating on Earthquake every time I'm on. It is very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, [...] very. I know you've got a lot of us in the case, and [...] you've got a lot of us in the case, to remember on this set. While I had a little cloud, I wanted to see this, the shrewd with the valley of the time, despite the slowest.

[04:00]

A man of a certain perilous, then he was pregnant, and [...] he was pregnant. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to everyone sitting here in this amazing zendo and online. Thank you for being here.

[05:01]

I'm so grateful to be here talking to you, and I have to start by thanking a number of people at the risk of hopefully not making it sound like the Academy Award. Thank you. But I want to start by thanking Abbot Jiryu for the generous invitation to be here to speak from this seat and to Timo Blank, who invited me many months ago now. And a lot of thanks to my primary teacher, Daito Steve Weintraub, Very grateful for his teaching. And I'm very grateful to be practicing with all of you, all at San Francisco Zen Centers, temples.

[06:07]

I also practice with Presidio Hills Zen Center, Steve's group, and Everyday Zen, Norman Fisher, Zouketsu Norman Fisher's group. I'm very grateful to all of the people I practice with there. And most grateful to all of the residents and practitioners at Green Gulch who make it possible for us to be here and to have been here for lo these many years. This is the first Sunday Dharma talk that I've given. I have spoken in this zendo before. I did so as Xu So, or head student of a practice period back in 2021. The opportunity to sit here and think about a talk and deliver a talk that is hopefully helpful really draws up from me my own attempt to

[07:21]

really consider what Zen practice means in my life. As they say in the koans and the teaching stories, what is the living meaning of Zen? What is it to live this practice? I feel extremely lucky in my life to have found Zen, Buddhism, this practice. It's really given me the opportunity to turn my energies the truth of our lives and away from, I would say, habitual emotional energies that really foster, only foster suffering. So I'm really grateful for this practice. I'd like to briefly introduce myself. There are many of you here I don't know and who don't know me, so how it is that I come to

[08:22]

be sitting here today. I lived and practiced at San Francisco Zen Center and all three temples for about 10 years in the 1970s into the 80s, including a few years here at Green Gulch. I then went on to medical school in 1982 and worked as an emergency room doctor. until I retired in 2016. For quite some time now, as I said, I've been practicing with my teacher, Steve Weintraub, and I was ordained in 2018 and then with Shuso here in the practice period of 2021. So more than 50 years have gone by since I first sat down for Zazen instruction, as some of you did this morning.

[09:34]

I first sat down for Zazen instruction in front of a sunny white wall in the basement of the Page Street building quite a long time ago now. I'll turn 75 later this year. the number of years the passage of the months and the years on the calendar you know the flying by of the pages on the calendar to use a an image that probably a lot of people it's kind of a quaint image now but those all that time flying by seems rather abstract But what is not abstract are the friends and the relatives no longer alive, the aching that never seems to go away in my knees from wear and tear, the palpitations that I take medication for, all of these kinds of things.

[10:36]

Each day seems to bring some news of someone I know ill or worse or myself. And I have grandchildren. God, God, help me. How did that happen? Wonderful grandchildren. So all of this makes me, I often think these days of the words, not now, if not now, when, you know, that familiar phrase comes up. I just learned that it was spoken by God. Hillel, ancient Jewish sage, fits Buddhism very well as well, if not now, when? I also think of the words that are written on the back of my raksu, my miniature Buddha's robe. Those words are, to be faithful to our true nature is the only way to live.

[11:43]

in our life the only way to live in this world to be faithful to our true nature is the only way to live in this world my understanding of that statement is that our zen practice how we try to live our lives is to try to wake up again and [...] again to who we most deeply are to our deep clear awakened nature that's always there and to the basic goodness at our core and because i feel more urgency about this matter than ever i was attracted to the teaching that i'm going to say a little bit about this morning the topic of my talk is an early teaching of the Buddhas called the Satipatthana Sutta.

[12:45]

This is an early sutta that deals with the practice of mindfulness. It is usually translated as the four foundations of mindfulness or the four ways of establishing mindfulness or the four fields in which we practice mindfulness those four fields are described in the sutta as mindfulness of mind excuse me mindfulness of body and breath mindfulness of feeling mindfulness of mind and emotion and mindfulness of dharmas which refers to the patterns of mind and emotion and consciousness as described in buddha's teaching the sutta in its many sections gives detailed meditation instructions on 13 separate topics in addition to those detailed meditation instructions about which i don't have much time to talk so i'm going to concentrate

[14:04]

mainly my remarks about the introduction to these 13 separate topics and a refrain that occurs over and over again in the sutta. I recommend looking into the sutta and going into it in more detail for anyone who's interested. It's really a foundational teaching of Buddhism and would repay study greatly. Here, just to give you a flavor of the words of the sutta or the opening words. And this is Ananda speaking. I heard these words of the Buddha one time when he was living in Kama Sadama, a market town of the Kuru people. There he addressed the monks thus.

[15:07]

Also the word bhikkhu is used as a synonym for monk. And I should say that the use of the word monk or bhikkhu in this sutta really refers to us, to all of us who are interested in these teachings and want to take them up and aspire to take them up and do practice them. So the Buddha... addressed the monks thus, monks, venerable sir, they replied. The blessed ones said this, monks, there is a most wonderful way, a direct path to help living beings realize purification, overcome directly grief and sorrow, pain and anxiety. pain and anxiety travel the right path and realize nirvana. This is the way of the four establishments of mindfulness. In other words, here the Buddha tells us is the direct path to liberation.

[16:15]

The sutta discusses further the practice of mindfulness, which to start with simply put is paying attention. this most wonderful as the buddha says and direct path to deeply understanding the reality of our lives is simply to pay close attention to the to the intimate experience the intimate substance of our direct experience to really pay attention to the intimate substance of our moment-to-moment existence we are told is the way to liberation, to freeing ourselves. The intimate substance, the good news is, of our moment to moment existence is always available. Waking up to that reality, which is the responsibility of all of our lifetimes, waking up to that reality is the path.

[17:18]

Other translations of these words has this as the only path liberation to freeing ourselves from the suffering that we create with our minds and to bringing ourselves and others more ease in this life the only path they say what other path could there be actually than this the exact nature of each of our lives here the buddha teaches is the way to live our lives that causes the least suffering and the most good. Here's a quote that I found from the great teacher Thich Nhat Hanh. Buddhism is a clever way to enjoy life. Happiness is available. Please help yourself to it. Wonderful, Thich Nhat Hanh. so my desire and our desire for happiness at the deepest level for what we would call true happiness leads us here to this elemental teaching and i i like the word elemental here because it just refers to the elements as i said of our experience our intimate

[18:50]

in inward and outward experience so we're brought to this elemental teaching one which the buddha all but guarantees that have followed with diligence and sincerity will relieve the suffering of self and other self and others the suffering that is caused by our emphasizing our separation between self ourselves and others the buddha tells us that by developing the capacity of mindfulness the capacity to pay attention we will inevitably come to liberation and this can seem may seem astonishing how could this simple act lead to freedom we're all endowed with awareness We don't usually notice it or pay much attention to it.

[19:54]

We may take it for granted, which is probably part of the problem. We automatically have awareness and we may not recognize that there's a way of developing our awareness that leads to more peace and less unhappiness. So I'd like to... go on and speak a little about a few, just a couple of the preliminary or introductory features of the sutta that have stood out for me in reading about it and thinking about it. As I said, this Satipatthana sutta is divided into four main sections, describing mindfulness or the fields of mindfulness of body and breath, of feeling, of mind and emotion, and of dharmas or patterns of consciousness.

[20:56]

Before going into these four sections at length, however, the Buddha introduces them with a very helpful description of the mental qualities needed for pursuing this path, for what you might call a helpful frame of mind to assume in taking up this practice. and making it not only a practice, but a way of life that will tend, a way of life that will tend toward not causing harm and toward being a benefit in the world for oneself and others. Here, for example, is the Buddha's introduction to the subject of mindfulness of the four fields and mindfulness of body. He says, What are the four? What are the four fields? Here, bhikkhus, in regard to the body, a bhikkhu abides, contemplating the body ardent, clearly knowing and mindful, free from desires and discontent in regard to the world.

[22:07]

He goes on to repeat this prescription for what he calls the essential mental qualities needed in to walk this path for each of the other three fields of mindfulness as well. The first quality he describes is to be ardent or passionate, which also means to be diligent or zealous. The English word used here, ardent, which is a translation of the Pali word atapa, comes from the Latin root meaning to burn or to glow. So the implication is that we have a warm eagerness or energy in our practice. I came across a quote from Suzuki Roshi that reminded me of this.

[23:09]

He said in one of his talks, The true practice of Zazen is to sit as if drinking water when you're thirsty. I really love that. It so describes the spirit of what we're doing, sitting Zazen. Zazen satisfies that kind of need, that kind of thirst. Ardor. ardor i'm not sure about my new york accent and pronouncing this word ardor a-r-d-o-r is derived from our recognition of the preciousness of these teachings our good fortune in finding them from the also from the understanding our understanding of the impermanence of our lives and from our experience hopefully, that when we take up the way of living with mindfulness, usually there are good results.

[24:18]

Actually, when I think about it, all that's really necessary to be ardent about this practice is to recognize that one is a suffering human being, which comes to my attention now and then. Next, after order, the Buddha tells his followers to abide, contemplating the body with mindfulness, mindful attention. The Pali word translated as mindfulness is sati, as in satipatthana sutta. The word sati in the Pali conveyed the meaning or the sense of remembrance. In this context, it means remembrance or recollection of the present moment. It means bear attention to the experience of each moment, sustained awareness of what is happening to us inwardly and outwardly in each occasion of experience.

[25:33]

Mindfulness is concerned with keeping the attention on the object or bringing it back to the object of consciousness. Keeping the mind from drifting off, as one teacher has said, under the sway of random thoughts into mental proliferation and forgetfulness. Mindfulness also includes remembering in the sense of remembering our own awakened nature and that we may and can return to it again and again. Then the Buddha... instructed that our mindfulness should be associated with what he called clear knowing or comprehension sampajana in pali by this is meant the quality of clear knowing understanding of what one is experiencing what is the wide setting of what we are experiencing this includes our understanding of the purpose

[26:39]

and appropriateness of our actions. And what is it that really matters the most to us? I think this is included in this clear knowledge. It implies a wide and wise understanding of our lives in each moment, as wide and wise as we may muster. This is right view. the first step on the Buddhist Eightfold Path, seeing the world and our life as it really is, that we, we may feel are tiny and insignificant, and at the same time, we truly are the entire universe, and everything we do truly is of immeasurable importance. This is all part of clear knowing. Lastly, in the prescription for proper frame of mind, the Buddha instructed that one should abide contemplating the body free from desires and discontent in the world.

[27:53]

How to understand this? To be human is, by definition, to be very much subject to desires and discontent. It hardly... is a mystery to think about that to be human is by definition to be very much subject to our desires and discontents my understanding of this instruction to be free of these things is is that it's our practice to recognize our human desires and dissatisfactions to meet them as they arise and not be governed by them not be caught by them, not be stuck on them. We may learn to enjoy or appreciate or at the very least to tolerate our embodied existence, to tolerate this embodied existence if not enjoy it.

[28:58]

Appreciate what comes, no matter what comes and no matter what does not come. A few months ago, I had my own brush with mortality when I was given a tentative cancer diagnosis, which turned out, fortunately, to be something far less serious. But it occurs to me that it's our job, our task, our path as human beings to appreciate our... embodied existence no matter what comes even something as potentially serious as this you all for hanging in here with me in the body of the sutta there are many meditation instructions as I said with very concrete details as to how to meditate on body breath feelings and so forth and prior to each one of these as I said there's

[30:33]

a refrain repeated 13 times testifying to its importance. Here's a little bit of the refrain, which is stated in the instructions about how to meditate on the body or to abide contemplating on the body. This is a quote from the Sutta. In this way, in regard to the body she a practitioner abides contemplating the body internally or she abides contemplating the body externally or she abides contemplating the body both internally and externally or she abides contemplating the nature of arising in the body or she abides contemplating the nature of passing away in the body, or she abides contemplating the nature of both arising and passing away in the body.

[31:45]

So I wanted to say just a little bit about this instruction to abide contemplating the body internally, and externally or both simultaneously because it feels somehow pivotal to me, crucial. Maybe it's presumptuous to separate out some part of this sutta as more pivotal than another, but at this moment for me and in my life, this instruction has been important. So I just wanna try to say a few words about it. It reminded me of words from Dogen's Genjo Koan, our founder, Dogen Zenji. In Genjo Koan says, all things coming and carrying out practice enlightenment through the self, all things coming and carrying out practice enlightenment through the self,

[32:59]

is realization so to abide contemplating to dwell contemplating to patiently tolerate while contemplating as it says in the sutta is to be receptive of all things that come to us and i should say also that The use of the word contemplate here is not, of course, referring to a solely intellectual process. I think of this phrase to abide contemplating as implying something like to savor with our whole body and mind each experience, to appreciate the nature of each experience. inside or outside whether we like it or not it has little to do with whether we like it or not we abide contemplating the bodily sensations that come to us sensations of breath posture tightness of muscle sensation of cold and warmth our thoughts and emotions

[34:21]

We could call this contemplating the body internally. And we abide contemplating. We are receptive of color, sound, smell, interactions with other persons and beings. And we might describe this as contemplating the body externally. We may see that we have the same relationship in a certain way to things that come to us from the inside as well as things that come from what we call outside. We know or experience or meet all these things that we call objects of consciousness from the same place. The Buddha in the Satipatthana Sutta tells us to pay attention to both inside and outside. to take full responsibility, to take full responsibility for what's outside as well as inside.

[35:30]

This is to be mindful, this is to be mindful of the speech and the action of others, to meet what comes from outside with non-rejection. To notice that what appears to be coming from outside is really my life, really is Buddha's body. This is to understand that everything that happens in the world is my life, that it's impossible to exclude oneself from any of it. Things may happen constantly that appear to assault us from outside. People close to us may betray us, terrible things may happen to those of us we love best, all sorts of things. We would like to exclude such things, but it's impossible. To relieve suffering and to enjoy life with all of its tragic beauty requires that we accept everything that comes.

[36:38]

We meet everything with ardor because everything that comes is truly our life. And this attitude fosters our being able to engage with the world in a positive way. When I left SFZC to go to medical school and eventually to practice medicine, I tried to carry this teaching with me, that is to abide contemplating internally and externally, to try best as I could to actualize the lack of separation between myself and the people I helped to take care of in the emergency room. Of course, this practice immediately points out the many, many, many obstacles that come up in my mind that keep me from understanding another person's heart or mind and suffering as my own.

[37:42]

These obstacles are emotions like jealousy, pride, aversion, anger, fear, and ignorance. All those emotions that when pursued or followed after tend to reinforce ego and separation from other people. An important section of this sutta concerns practicing with these emotions or hindrances to connection. And the wonderful thing about Buddhist practice is that we're encouraged to meet these emotions with the same equanimity and open-heartedness with which we meet all the moments of our awareness. By not turning away from the difficulties in our own hearts and minds, we nourish our lives and all beings.

[38:42]

I just wanted to end with a brief quote from a poem by W.H. Auden called As I Walked Out One Evening. He speaks to our imperfections, all of the difficulties we have, things that get in the way of our connecting with and loving other people. He says, You shall love your crooked neighbor with all your crooked heart. You shall love your crooked neighbor with all your crooked heart. In our imperfection is perfect reality, as Suzuki Roshi put it, another way to say the same thing. The sutta offers us a way to meet our life, to enjoy it, to really appreciate each moment, and to work with our life, whatever the circumstances, to abide contemplating whatever comes from inside and outside, and to savor the taste of each moment.

[40:04]

Thank you very much for your most kind attention. We appreciate it. like to invite anybody who has anything to say or ask from the online sangha and from our zendo here. If anyone has anything they'd like to say, I'd be delighted. Oh, I'm sorry. When I was practicing it, I included my name. Very sorry. My name is Michael Gelfond. Thank you for asking. I wish you had asked early. But thank you very much. Thanks to the kitchen crew who's leaving now to prepare lunch.

[41:06]

I saw... The first hand I saw was... Oh, excuse me. Sorry, I still need the mic already. Hi. Hi. I was wondering, in delineating the aspects of the sutra, you mentioned in the second and third categories, there was feeling, there was emotions, and they were separate. Would you elaborate on the difference in a Buddhist context? Elaborate on the difference? In a Buddhist context? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah, I'm glad you asked that question. It's a bit confusing. And I'll do the best briefly to kind of say a little about it. In this sutta and in this way of looking at mindfulness, the category of feelings refers to a kind of simple take, a simple take.

[42:14]

take on each moment of experience and in the Buddhist system in this system one people one has a positive feeling toward a moment of experience a negative feeling toward a moment of experience or a neutral feeling or both positive and negative feeling toward a moment of experience. So that's what's referred to as feeling in this sutta, this sort of specialized way of using that word. More common, our usual way of feeling is referred to as emotion in this sutta or mind is in that category. And my understanding is that in this context, we're talking about emotion, as it usually comes up for us, is often associated with a narrative.

[43:23]

You know, we have thoughts. She did that to me, and I'm really angry about it, and I have anger, I have rage, I have... may love a person. I like this person for these reasons. So it's a more elaborated sense than just the feeling category. Thank you. Hi. It's really lovely to see you again.

[44:27]

Likewise. Nice to see you. I'm sorry, I can't remember your name right at the moment. Please. Doshin. Doshin, of course. Thank you. I just wanted to appreciate your Dharma talk and especially the part that felt especially resonant to you, contemplating the body internally or contemplating the body externally or both. That part, when I had read the Satipatthana Sutta, always confused me. And I really appreciate your perspective on that. It helped clarify that for me. And it seems maybe you've been expounding the Dharma long before you were asked to do this Dharma talk.

[45:31]

Thank you. That's very kind of you to say. I love this part of the sutta. Also, like I said, it really has felt important to me. And I was thinking... a little, in thinking about the talk, I thought a little about how, you know, we, it really gets at something that's crucial to our practice, which is, you know, we have this duality. We think I'm over here and the rest of the world is out there, you know, so I'm what is inside and the rest of the world is what's outside. And we separate ourselves. brings to mind I once a long time ago I was at Tassahara and I asked a question at there's a ceremony called a Shosan ceremony some of you know where the whole community asks a question of the teacher at that time it was Richard Baker Roshi

[46:45]

and i'd been at tasahara for a couple of years at that point and i felt like i was hiding still hiding myself and i asked that question i said to him i've been here a couple of years and i still feel that i'm hiding like i'm hiding and he said the most wonderful thing he said oh why don't you hide out here with the rest of us And, you know, like 50 years later, it still resonates for me. So this teaching of inside and outside, you know, and like Dogen says, you know, to allow all things to approach and practice. You know, we just come to see, I think, that after a while you know of course we are our separate person but um we're also connected you know not not one and not two as they say probably enough blathering thank you

[48:04]

Yeah, thanks as well for coming, Michael. I appreciate it. Thank you. I have a question more specifically related to how you dealt with when you go into a patient's room and you can tell they're all so nice to their families. They're always so nice to their families and warm and loving, but you might at times be immediately attacked by them. Oh. How do you disarm someone like that using these practices? Great question. I've been retired for six or however long enough that it's starting to feel... The experience of opening a door and walking into a patient's room is a little distant now, but it's a great question, you know. And... Are you a medical practitioner?

[49:24]

Yes, I am studying nursing, and I am also working in the medical field as well. Yeah, it's really difficult, and especially under the pressures that the medical care system puts on providers, medical providers. nurses doctors all of the people doing trying to do their best it's really hard sometimes and i've i recall things that i did while practicing medicine in the er that i'd rather not recall you know really treating people in ways as a result of the pressures and my own inability to cope with them adequately but to get back to your question you know to walk in and what can you say you just try to be a friendly face and try to be open really open you don't try to be a friendly face you are a friendly face when you walk in and meet somebody for the first time and I mean I really did when I went to

[50:43]

school and to practice try to keep this teaching in mind you know and i i remember uh not not always but you know now and then kind of it would come up in my mind you know no separation no separation and um just doing the best you can you know but it's and people sometimes do attack because it's everybody's worst moment being in an emergency department or whatever you're there for. You didn't plan on being there for your sprained ankle or whatever it is. It's your worst moment or you're afraid or you're, that's a huge part of it. So just trying to remember that that person is going through the experience that they're going through, which includes a lot of difficulty, doing the best you can to keep that in mind and set aside your own difficulty.

[51:56]

This is all very easy in theory. I don't know, does that speak a little bit to what you're... I definitely, I try... do that. But yeah, that's a good idea to keep that in mind, just like a chant. Do you have any chants that you... Well, you know, things come up for you, like I just said, you know, no separation or be mindful of what's inside and what's outside. And what's outside is another... human being who's in the same boat that you're in. I remember taking care of people with heart attack, for example, and like, I'm gonna be there one day, and remembering that doctors and nurses get sick also, and we're all in this together.

[53:03]

There's a lot of teaching, that if one studies, things will come up in your mind invariably. It's a great thing about studying these things. Thank you for the question. Maybe this is for the beginners, but I guess in the beginning of your talk, And thank you for your talk, by the way. Yes. I guess I get stuck in the goal of simplicity of existing. And then in Buddha's experience, he was doing all these mental gymnastics and reconfiguring of existence. Was his existence a sacrifice for the rest of us? Is that why people see him as more of a god? Because he couldn't just be... the instruction that we all try to be, just all these conflicting ideas of be here, be now, but also do this exhausting thing of taking all this instruction and accepting it as it is, but also contemplate it and be arduous.

[54:25]

And to do all this mental gymnastics, but also try to just be here, be now, accept it, be the observer. And I get caught in that, and maybe you can help me with that as a beginner. Well, I'm not quite sure. You know, for me, and I think for people who practice... Let me back up a little. Zazen, for me, my understanding of Zazen is that it's a way to simplify our existence. the simplified you know we sit down bow to and away from a cushion and sit down on it and try to concentrate on our breathing and be with our body and our mind and see what comes up try try to let it go and come back to our breathing i don't think of it so much as mental gymnastics i'm not sure if that's how you think of it

[55:32]

as much as a way to kind of get to the core of what it means, what it is to be alive and to practice. I mean, to practice coming back again and again to being present. And we're, you know, we're always present. Things go on in our mind that kind of, we, get carried away, as it were. But we can always come back. And we get swept up by mind and emotion. And having sat zazen gives us a way to experience that we do have the ability to open our eyes and notice that we're in a room full of People feel the quality of the air, listen to the sounds.

[56:37]

It gives us the chance to recognize that we can pay attention and be present and come back from the various places that we get carried away to. I'm trying to speak to your question, and I'm not sure if I'm successful. Thank you. Oh, you're welcome. Thanks for the question. Dear Michael. Hi, Grace. I'm just remembering a time when I was a patient when my body really hurt. And every time I would listen closely to who was walking into my room, and I would pull the covers up. I felt that they were depressed. I didn't give a damn about their feelings.

[57:42]

I would just feign sleep. I would just pretend I was asleep. And it didn't matter. It was my doctor, the janitor, whoever it was. But eventually, when I was out of the hospital, practicing medicine again, I decided that my only job as a doctor was to provide happy presence. So in other words, I was aware of what I was feeling, and I was just choosing not to deal with it then, but I did deal with it in the future. And I think mindfulness, we all think, means doing something about it. about our feelings in the present. Can you speak to that? Can you speak to putting the present moment to the future when you can deal better with it?

[58:43]

My dealing was very effective for me in that I was fainting sleep. I wasn't dealing with anybody I didn't want to deal with. for the first time in my life. And I thought, this is marvelous. This is a great way to live. Hallelujah. Well, hallelujah that you did take care of yourself. You were taking care of yourself the way you knew you had to. And luckily for all of us, you did do that so that you're here. now so that i get to be here we all get to be here with you how lucky we are and um i i was just thinking you know we i i mentioned in the talk you know the idea of clear knowing clear knowledge what are we doing here what what is the reason what's the what's the most what's the most important thing about being

[59:54]

And I don't have the answer. I'm not going to try to answer that question, but that's the question. And we just try to answer it with the way we live. And if what we're going through in the moment means that we have to take care of this one under the covers, veining sleep, that's what we need to do for the larger purpose, more important purpose of surviving and nourishing, healing. So we just do what is the right, you know, the most appropriate thing. It says that somewhere in the sutta also, do the most appropriate thing. Thank you. Hello. Hi. I have a great yoga teacher.

[60:58]

Would you mind speaking up just a little? Yes. I think you'll hold the microphone. That's great. Yes. And he once said in our class, we are born to liberate, not love. And I found that very impactful. And he brought up the various people throughout time who have suffered greatly. He mentioned Jesus Christ, Krishna, Moses, Buddha, and their lives were filled with suffering. And we don't remember the moments of love. We remember the teachings from suffering. And he also said, in a way, he believes happiness is an illusion. And I wonder, is happiness an illusion? And what, if any... role does happiness play in the path to liberation yeah that's a great question one thing that comes up for me is that when suffering is removed happiness is there

[62:16]

Buddhism has a kind of grim exterior sometimes. Life is suffering. And there's a cure for that. I just think there's a joyous, a joyful approach to the suffering that we're born into. There's certain suffering, there's no escaping. And we're not trying to escape or deny any of it. And truly, I think the only way to fully appreciate the nature of our lives is is to fully acknowledge, fully meet the suffering that's invariably going to come up.

[63:32]

And this practice, I believe, gives us a way to not make it worse. And, you know, speaking for myself, I've been involved in a lifetime of making it worse. you know, really it comes naturally. And I think, you know, I don't think I'm, I don't think I'm the only one that that's true of. You know, we're kind of, you know, we have built into us instincts for survival that, and defense and survival that, make us wanna get what we want and not get what we don't want. Like Steve has often said, evolution has produced us.

[64:38]

We're here because we're the survivors, the people who were successful in pushing away what they didn't want and getting what they wanted. So that's built in to us. But it also can be a source of a lot of suffering when it gets out of hand, I guess. So the practice gives us a way to tolerate a little bit more, maybe, of what we don't want. We're not getting what we think we want. One other thing I wanted to add or share is that my view of suffering has changed quite a bit. I used to think of it as something negative in my life. When I heard this teacher speak, he talks about how suffering is a result of our past karma. And in that sense, if it comes, that means it will go away. When you have paid for it, it will go away.

[65:40]

And so I think that has reshaped my view in the sense of experience suffering is not necessarily... something to be embarrassed of or fearful of. If anything, it's a very important part of our path. And it will be what leads us to liberation. I think that's true. I think it's true that it's a very important part of our practice. It's the substance of our liberation. exactly as you say. By not turning away, by working with our difficulties is our path forward. Someone just asked me about being brave, and I just thought, well, you can't be brave unless you're scared. You're not really brave if you're not scared.

[66:43]

It's that kind of thing. We work with our difficulties. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. I apologize, but I have the job to end the discussion at this point. And if you have further questions, I think might be available outside to where you can address your questions directly. Thank you. May our intention equally extend to every being and place with the true merit of Buddha's way. Beings are numberless. I vow to save them. Delusions are inexhaustible.

[67:46]

I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to enter them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I vow to become it. beings are the best .

[68:59]

. [...]

[69:20]

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