Excuse me for being a little late to lecture, but we're having a schism next door. There's an opening of a Nichiren Soka Gakkai chanting place next door. Kirby Hancock arrived, actually arrived first at quarter after four this morning, just as I was getting up to come to Zazen. And he's here making a record, and he wants a place to chant, and he chants, you know, Nam-myoho-renge-kyo. So, one of the sound technicians is living next door, and they have a guitarist who makes $3,000 a week in Los Angeles who they're trying to convert. I guess he's a really superb guitarist, makes everybody else nervous, he's so good. Anyway, they've got him sort of decked out in beads and candles and incenses burning, and they're chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo. And so we had an opening ceremony a few minutes ago for unrolling the sutra or the name Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.

[01:25]

and chanted for what? An altar is just a cardboard box nailed to the wall with a little door, you can open the front of the cardboard box, and an ashtray with incense and candles. the scroll hanging in the cardboard box. Anyway, they're supposed to be recording now but they didn't want to start. He doesn't want to play until they chant, so they set this up, chanting. I think my wife has been converted. It's interesting to me to see them chanting because I suppose the chanting for most

[02:58]

Throughout Zen Center, the chanting, the service has been the part that most people have had difficulty with. There are some people who don't seem to, and actually enjoy it from the beginning. And there are a lot of people who like it sometimes. But obviously not everyone likes it all the time, because when I go up to start service, before I come down, from my window I see people going, Not coming to service, but going up that street or that street. I keep track and write their names down. Actually, I don't. Don't worry. I always assume you have some important errand to do. But it's interesting, you know, Herbie... The Lotus Sutra is pretty difficult. If any of you have tried to read it, it's pretty difficult. And Herbie says he picks it up every now and then and, you know, can't quite get into it, I guess. And that's pretty common, I think. Most people, without quite a bit of study of Buddhism, find the Lotus Sutra a little bit much.

[04:36]

little florid. But even if he doesn't know the Lotus Sutra well because he hasn't studied Buddhism much, he has studied Buddhism. He chants. When you chant the way they do, you can't think about chanting the way we do. We do zazen so we have the luxury of being able to think about service. But if you don't do any sitting, for the most part, if they do sitting it's while they chant. They do it with the kind of concentration that we sometimes may have in zazen. Usually, I don't think we do. without knowing much about Soka Gakkai or Nichiren Shu, chanting and with some minimum knowledge of the precepts and Buddhist attitudes, he seems to lead, to the little bit I know him, quite a Buddhist life, quite remarkable. So I feel he's a good example for me.

[06:02]

of the directness needed in practice, and the simplicity of practice if you have that directness, simplicity of our zazen practice. Okay. Yesterday I was talking about merit as the capacity to receive or the capacity for experience. And karma, producing karma, would be experience without the capacity for experience. And merit would be capacity for experience, maybe without experience. The experience disappears into the capacity.

[07:37]

for experience. This capacity for experience is something, almost something tangible that you can feel, touches, by which you touch everything. And it's interesting it's named merit because we experience it as merit and others experience it as merit. And the stopping of leaking we experience as accumulation. But it's more, like someone said to me today, you're always breathing, so when you come back to your breathing, you feel you're coming back to something more fundamental than thinking. You go off to your thinking and come back to your breathing. You could come back to your thinking. I suppose that's what people do.

[09:06]

until they practice. But if you do, you find out, if you do come back to your breathing, or stay with your breathing, or stay with this undifferentiated capacity for experience, you will begin accumulation I don't like, so you begin to experience what you are like if you stop leaking. you overflow. There's a story about Joshu. Joshu and Seto. We talked about Seto yesterday. And the golden carp. Joshu is also, like Seto, an extraordinary teacher. Joshu was known for

[10:07]

not setting up a lofty, dangerous way. He didn't talk about smashing empty space, a tower, ten thousand fathoms, he said. Just something, because he didn't set up a lofty, dangerous path, his way is very steep Anyway, one story about him is, a monk came and asked Joshu, or said to Joshu, and Joshu's name is the name of a city, and there are other koans based on Joshu's name being a city's name, gates of Joshu. In this case, the city of Joshu had a famous stone bridge, so some monk said to Joshu, I hear, I've heard of the famous bridge of Joshu, but I come here and I find only a simple plank. That's like if someone went to Tassajara and said,

[11:33]

I came, I heard so much about Tassajara and its hot springs and I find nothing here but lukewarm water.' And the shuso might say to him, we keep it cool for the benefit of you, or something like that. So Joshu said to this monk, you see the plank but you don't see the stone bridge. And the monk says, well, what is the stone bridge? And Joshu says, acids cross, horses cross, donkeys cross, horses cross, cross over. And that's all. There are many stories of this type, you know, like Topsan I can't think of his name. It means dragon well or dragon lake. What? Ryutan. Ryutan, he says. I came here, I don't see any dragon. And Ryutan says something like, watch out.

[13:04]

There's another story about a man named Hwang ... something Lung, I don't know what it is in Japanese. It means yellow dragon, anyway. This story is a more obvious story, but it's the same type of story. A monk says to a yellow dragon, I heard of a yellow dragon who was famous teacher. I heard of yellow dragon and I get here and I see nothing but a red striped snake and he says, same way, you see a red striped snake but you don't see the yellow dragon. And the monk says, what is the yellow dragon? And he says, slithering along. And the monk says, what if he encounters a Garuda? Garudas are known to eat dragons and snakes. He says, what if this slithering along meets a Garuda?

[14:25]

The man whose name means yellow dragon says, it would be dangerous, hardly a chance to escape. And the monk says, what? The yellow dragon will be eaten up? and the man named Yellow Dragon says, thank you for feeding me. In this kind of story, it's attempting to give you a feeling for someone who you can't measure, and no matter what they say, what kind of statement they make, they show through their words what kind of person they are.

[15:49]

what kind of capacity they have. And usually, or many of us, get caught up in resistance to chanting, or resistance to Buddhism, or resistance to other people. And resistance and imitation are nearly the same. You're caught by some outside object. You either are afraid of imitating it, or you resist it, or you try to adjust yourself according to it. Anyway, these stories are about how you don't have to resist things or imitate things. The inner man or monk of no rank takes this form or that form. sometimes letting circumstances speak for themselves and sometimes speaking for circumstances.

[17:09]

Yeah. I think I've talked enough so far this session about aspects of practice and we haven't had a chance to discuss anything or have any questions. So, today, I'd like to have some questions from you, if you have any. Yes? I was thinking about, never is the same thing great,

[19:07]

Well, in Buddhism we don't talk about a state of grace much. Let me see. State of grace. Any of you in a state of grace? Yes. State of grace means what? Everything you do is right? I have a feeling that you came to her, had a thing to do with her marriage, a breach of trust. I can't believe it. Even though, she should probably be able to forgive you for what you did to her. Yeah.

[20:27]

I suppose the feeling I expressed yesterday of who brings you back to your breathing, when you see that that's true of everything, maybe that's what is similar to grace. Maybe a Christian would describe it that way. Because you don't possess anything anymore at that point. You don't feel you possess anything, but there are many aspects of practice at that point. How do you use things? you may not possess them, but how do you use them? Or, as I said, do you let circumstances speak for themselves or do you speak for circumstances? And many koans turn on this point. And the questions back and forth are actually back and forth about this point. Yes? I would like to ask, when you're coming to your breath, What depends on you, of course. In the beginning, I guess, I have to imagine, in the beginning,

[22:02]

your attention is probably actually on the effort to count, and it probably gets to then be on the number, and then on the number as part of the breathing. Eventually it's not sort of on the number, it's all around the number and around the breathing and maybe at that point you mostly have your attention here, to the extent to which you have... There's practice in which you put your attention somewhere and there's practice in which you have no attention anywhere. There comes a point where the number becomes an obstacle. Yes, and then there comes a point after that where it's not an obstacle. Well, it's like those leaves blowing outside the window. Some of them are yellow and some of them are green, depending on the sunlight hitting them. Some breasts have a number and some don't.

[23:28]

But when the counting is an obstacle, it's sometimes good to work with it as an obstacle. What is it? And sometimes it's good at that point to just follow your breathing. But any level of an observer becomes an obstacle. Any level of attention becomes an obstacle. Any kind of consciousness, no. Yes. But at the same time, there's the saying that you don't see the sunlight unless it hits an obstacle. belief, or you. So we are nothing but obstacle. Buddha is an obstacle. The Buddha mind is the mind that hears the bell at four o'clock in the morning. Isn't that kind of what we're talking about here? You make me want to shout or go ding Yeah, it's the sound of one hand clapping. You know, sometimes I... It's very interesting, we... You know, our hands only go together in certain ways. That way, I guess that way, and that way, and...

[25:08]

I don't know if I can give you my feeling. Our hands only go together a certain way. So, there's a great feeling of relief and composure in knowing our hands only go together a certain way. We have two projections off our shoulders. And So life is pretty simple. You can walk along with your hands like that, or you can walk along with them like that. You don't have too many choices. And yet the sound of one hand means all choices, or the yellow dragon is being fed. I think if I gave Gary I would give him some name with one hand in it, because he has trouble making his hands meet. But he has the potential. It doesn't make any difference. The magic of being able to... that our feet meet, are about the same length, and hands meet. It's very convenient for us.

[27:15]

But the magic is that we can do that. And that we can do that means the mind that hears before the bell, if you like. Because this fundamentally is I don't know how to express it. The sound of one hand is a good way to express it. So that's what these stories that I told today are about the sound of one hand or the yellow, the golden cart. Horses and donkeys cross over. Somebody asked Joshu also. Joshu was sweeping and the temple and someone said to Joshu, where does the dust come from?

[28:52]

Why do temples, why does a temple get dusty? That's a pretty good fundamental question. And Joshi said, look, there's another one. If you say, why do temples get dusty, then you have the problem of wanting your hands to meet in many ways. But when it's not a question for you, why temples get dusty, you know, and I think you have to go through asking the question, why do temples get dusty? Why do we return? What brings us back to our breathing? before you can... It's not a matter of just... It's very interesting, you know, it's a category that we don't have any way to express. To not have the question of why do temples get dusty is not the same as to say, oh, that's not a question we have to worry about, that's not a question we have to answer.

[30:22]

It means that you've resolved the question so thoroughly that there's no doubt about it. You yourself are a dusty tent. The question doesn't arise because you've resolved it so thoroughly. This is the inner monk or man of no rank. This capacity to receive

[31:31]

and to use things according to circumstances. Another way in this 52nd koan of the Ekingan Roku I'm trying to express is, they say, a thunderbolt or a thunderclap and a pure wind arises or a pure wind Gus. As Nukirishi says, at that time many more students were involved in some kind of resistance, in America, not to Buddhism, but in America, at that time, ten or so years ago. He said, you don't have your freedom, real freedom, until you have creativity that's not in the realm of resistance or imitation. Freedom to show yourself in any circumstance. So although there's a thunderclap, there's pure breeze arises.

[32:57]

What follows from something may not be what you expect when you have your freedom, when this inner monk or capacity for experience has its freedom. You're not caught in resistance or imitation or adjustment of outside objects. So, this is what was trying to be expressed by Akhund, sound of one hand. Yes, go ahead. Question being asked.

[34:52]

Is that the same as what? It's delusion, the fantasy. It's the same thing. An old black magic. Why don't you tell us, sing us a song? Just remember the first two lines, an old black magic's got me and it's so, an old black magic that you weep sore, and it should make God weep sore. Well, the part you remember is probably the part you mean. Yes, I guess so. By flesh and fantasy, I don't mean... I think some of you thought I meant too much sexual fantasy, and I don't mean just that. The whole thing of talking to your flesh, which includes how important you are, you

[35:59]

be involved in praise, you know, instead of criticism. But it certainly is a spell. Yeah? because it doesn't belong to you. Do you think there's no Manjushri? Do you think there's just you? You should just be able to grab the stick and run.

[37:23]

Just watch out. That stick belongs to all of us. Yes. When people what? Where do they go? No one's left yet. Do you want to go somewhere? Do you have any idea where they should go? Why do you wonder? Are you worried about them?

[38:56]

Question from the audience. Question from the audience. Often when I'm having some kind of difficulty, I find that it's because I'm trying to be my way of being, to think I should be like someone who's me, or like me, and that actually I'm like me. And when I can be me, when I can be close to me, it is subtle to know that I do have to go down that path, or call it a decision, or maybe I should put more energy into expressing It's my own feeling. Or... Actually, I don't know. I can't say it.

[40:11]

Well, I don't know how thoroughly to answer your question. Can you hear what she said? Please don't talk about me when I'm gone. That's very good. Philip said, oh, please don't talk about me when I'm gone. The reason he left is he lost too much weight. He just disappeared. I don't know how serious a question it is, actually, because it's a real question, I mean, for us to really talk about, because I think the only importance is what about them, you know. For me, as a Buddhist, my feeling is.

[42:03]

Did we do something, or did they miss their chance to practice? Again, going back to the stories I've been telling today, it says in the commentary, Joshu only catches the big tortoises. And the meaning is, because Joshua's way is so simple, you know, just there goes another one, pointing to the dust, he doesn't say something, some flashy thing, or giving people some insight or good feeling, which lasts a short time. But with Joshu, you either went away pretty quickly or you were hooked for life. Anyway, simply people leave for a lot of reasons. Some people will leave eventually because they're going to teach Buddhism somewhere.

[43:30]

But so far, anybody who's able to teach Buddhism, even a little, is needed here. So, we have responsibility to the students that we get involved with. One of the dangers of, once you start, we are not linked to Zen Center, we are linked to each other. And if Zen Center goes away, that's all right, we will go to the mountains, or go to somewhere else. So once you enter dharma relationships with people, they last a long time. So we have some responsibility here because we are all teaching each other. But the people who leave Zen Center,

[44:32]

Many leave because it's not to their taste, you know, or they have something better to do, some other obligation. Most people leave. Probably the people who it's most difficult for, which is also we have to worry about, are people who get some dependent relationship on this community. They like to be in the neighborhood or they like the advantages of I don't know what, the grocery store, Zazen occasionally, you know, things like that. And they are the ones who use up their chance to practice, and they're the ones who tend to be here but are most critical, and centers are just a big institution type of criticism. And their criticism partly comes from they don't take responsibility for this community here. They enjoy it, but they don't take responsibility for it, so they end up being critical of it and themselves. and so it cuts them off from practice. So the question is, how wide can we make the community? How seriously practicing should everyone be who's within, say, a resident?

[46:01]

How much transitional space should there be in the community for people to make up their mind online? And there's some people who have left because, and not so many though, over personal squabbles with someone from some karma or more commonly, but still pretty rare, people who I mean have been with them for quite a long time and actually practicing. Those people who have usually come to a point where there's something they won't give up, something they won't change. They may, you know, it's all right. Some people give something up and then take it back again. That's very different. These people aren't free enough to give it up and do without it and then take it back again and use it. They won't give it up, even like that. And those people generally feel uncomfortable and leave. But the kind of thing the two of you are referring to, I think, when I say it's such and such a quality, usually all of us have that quality.

[47:25]

those qualities. And those are the qualities that make us think about, should I leave or should I stay? And generally, when I make some reference like that, it's usually somebody who's been around only six months or a year or three months, who has that quality in such predominance, it's so predominant in them, they hardly know they're here. So I don't, usually I'm not talking about a person who's in the process of practice, but rather somebody who never even is aware of the process of practice, because this characteristic is so clear. But when we see it in that person, you can see it in yourself, too. If you really practice, you never stop. Some of you may not practice here, but you don't stop. And if you do stop, It's difficult. You bear a wound and stop. Yes? I think you said something about effort and practice. I end up speaking for myself in terms of up to sitting with a conditioned concessionary.

[48:54]

following the breaths, it involves a good deal of effort. And I don't suppose I'm allowed to go away, but I know from my own personal experience, sometimes I'm doing too much, I think it tends to be harmful or obscuring. Perhaps you can adjust yourselves to perhaps stages that may be absolutely worth it, whether or not perhaps more effort is needed. Well, one form of effort is He's been sitting up there now for nearly an hour and should I move my legs or not? Only another twenty minutes. I don't know, effort's a hard thing to talk about, because when you care about something or feel something, your effort, even though you make an effort, most of your effort is unconscious. And as I have often said, the real effort is the willingness to practice. And then on top of that you make some effort, and then sometimes you give up.

[50:30]

But the willingness to practice is there, always. The willingness to continue. That's the real effort. Eventually, there's no effort. Do we assess our willingness by our effort? Or is there any point in assessing it? No point to assess it. I suppose you can see it, I can see it, five people's activity, but it's more like a vow or a recognition. Something goes clunk. You're doing this stuff and you think, well, it's pretty good or it's pretty bad, and maybe I should do it, or there's nothing, I don't see any point in doing anything else, and then one day, clunk. There's no point in doing anything else. It's no longer a question. You don't even have to say to yourself anymore,

[51:30]

So there's no longer any point in doing anything else, I'm going to do this. And that clunk is evolved. Then there's no effort, or the beginning of no effort. Even the decision of whether you move your legs at the end of lecture is not effort. No matter how you sit there, and it may hurt, but you don't move your legs. And then you move your legs. That's all. You don't have any effort to... If you have effort, you move them. But that's... You know, I know... For me, I remember I passed through the first stages of that barrier. I had a terrible time sitting, you know, my legs would never go down. It took about more than two years of sitting a lot. Three days Sashim once a month, and sometimes longer, and daily sitting, and regular seven days Sashim. It took more than two years before my knees would even touch the cushion.

[52:51]

It used to take me around five minutes to get my legs sprung down. And then I always felt with the slightest movement I might fall. So I would work it down. And I used to sit there looking like Bodhidharma, you know. Because even two periods with agony. And then Sashin was just unbelievable. And Sukhyarji used to do that thing which you've all heard about, I think, leaving the room and not coming back for an hour. I think, the longest he ever left us sitting was two and a half hours. Anyway, it would just be unbelievable. And one day I decided I'm not going to sit here making faces any longer. I'd be sitting here. And, you know, I would be

[54:19]

pressing my midra together so hard that my fingers would be about to appear on the other side. And one day I just decided, if I make a face, I'm going to move. I didn't make faces and I didn't move. But I was ready to move, boy. The first face, I was going to move. It's something like thought. Q. Is there something to just getting through? A. Yes, you feel good afterwards. Q. Does it make you want to do it again? A. Did you hear what she said? She said, Is there some value in just getting through? And I said, Do you feel good afterwards? And she said, Does it make you want to do it again? And I said, Well, I don't know about that.

[55:30]

And then you said, what kept me going? There are many reasons I love Suzuki Roshi. I guess I decided to do something, so that seemed to be a career qualification, to be able to sit. But I didn't... that wasn't so important to me. I do know I had a... one time I had a real... after I'd gotten so I could sit through sashims and I was... you know, I...

[56:44]

gone through most of the stages of practice. I remember sitting in a sasheen at Tassajara and sasheen's have never gotten easy for me. They're still about the same as my third sasheen. Oh no, they're easy now. But for some people they get easy. I just had a particularly difficult pair of legs. So, I remember sitting in satsang at Tassara and I'd been sitting quite a long time by that time, maybe seven years or so, and I thought in the middle of this satsang, you know, I was leading the satsang more or less actually, and I thought in the middle of the satsang, my God, you know, there's about forty years ahead of me.

[58:05]

one or ten of these a year. How can I? But I guess my feeling was some... I think I must have had some willingness to experience things. And I knew... I felt that my difficulty in sitting was was small compared to the difficulties many people had. And I couldn't force things on myself, so the least I could do was sit through a session. That was my feeling. So I did it. I guess I did it. I continued anyway.

[59:27]

And I didn't get tired out, you know, I didn't get... I was willing to keep asking the question, where does the pain come from? It gave me a chance to sit with you. If I didn't do it, I couldn't be sitting with you now. So, you know, it's wonderful for me to be able to sit with you. Well, today I haven't been able to express meant to say.

[60:52]

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