Good evening. So, Genjo Koan. Wow. Last week we finished looking together at the first three segments of Dogen's Genjo Koan. The word Genjo Koan itself translated in a couple of ways. actualization of the fundamental point, or manifesting in the present moment, or to appear and become. So, for Dōgen, the Genjo Koan is really nothing more than the entire universe appearing in the present moment. So, both from the point of view of reality itself, re, those words we've learned from the Japanese, Suzuki Roshi's use of re and ji, so from the point of view of reality itself, ultimate truth, ri, and from the point of view of the individual elements that make up reality, the relative truth, ji.

[01:08]

So ri and ji, as we know, are these two words or two characters that represent the two truths, the ultimate truth and the relative truth. So, as you might remember, according to the Dalai Lama, the two truths is the best place to begin understanding the Buddha's teaching. Without the two truths, it's really almost impossible to understand what the Buddha is trying to help us understand. So the first segment of the Genjo Kwan, Dōgen presents us with a view from the side of Ji. As all things are Buddhadharma, the side of our relationships as sentient beings, to birth and death, to delusion and realization, and to Buddha. So this is the side of relative truth. In the second segment, he pivots through this other view of reality from the side of ri. As all things are without an abiding self, are empty of some essence or some inherent existence, then those notions and projections of objects as separate from ourselves disappear, leaving us with a long trail of no.

[02:16]

You know, just like the Heart Sutra. No eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind. To which Dogen has added, no delusion, no realization, no Buddha, no sentient being, no birth and death. So again, this is from the side or the point of view of the ultimate truth, which is not much of a view at all. Form and image beholding each other, as it says in the Song of the Jewel Mirror Samadhi. These are wonderful things to try to imagine. Form and image beholding each other in the Jewel Mirror. The author of that poem, Dongshan, is the founder of Soto Zen, so he's the Zen ancestor of Dogen Zenji, and of all of us. So then Dogen pivots back to the world of appearances. So we've got appearances, no appearances, and now we're back at appearances again, which have been energized by Dogen's exhortation to leap clear of abundance or lack, of the many or the one, of the ultimate truth and the relative truth.

[03:21]

Leap clear. these dualistic notions and as we leap if we leap high enough there appears to our wondering eyes both sides of the two truths the ultimate side and the relative side like seeing two sides of a coin at the same time hard to imagine seeing both sides together as a buddha's eye is able to do we get a peek at thus justice Just this experience of myriad things which have no inherent existence. Just this eye as no eye. Or just this ear as no ear. Or just this mind as no mind. Just this thinking as no thinking. So this may be coming familiar to you by now. I hope so. It's our song, you know. It's the Zen tune. And yet, as we all know, from having dropped back down to our all too human side, regardless of our attachments to the beauty of spring, blossoms fall. And regardless of our aversion to the crabgrass or the dandelions, weeds spread.

[04:24]

So this next paragraph, which I will talk about today, is Dogen's description of how delusion and enlightenment are experienced by all of us in our relationships and in our interactions with objects. To carry the self forward and illuminate myriad things is delusion. That myriad things come forth and illuminate the self is awakening. It's kind of a reversal because I feel that, you know, trying to imagine things coming forward and illuminating themselves, you know, I'm meeting you, I'm meeting this, this presence, as opposed to you going out there and meeting things, you know, going shopping, whatever it is you do all day long. We talk that way. I'm going there, and I'm doing that, and I bought that, and so on. So this is reversing that flow from this way to this way. Receptive. So most simply, carrying the self forward and illuminating married things refers to looking for the Dharma outside of your own mind, and therefore, it's delusion.

[05:26]

And yet this is the most common way and familiar way that we sentient beings see the world of objects, you know, kind of like a kitten that's trying to catch its own tail. It's kind of cute, but we don't see it. We haven't seen how cute it is. You know, mostly it's kind of painful because we can't catch it, right? So the irony being that there is no kitten outside of its tail or its paws, its whiskers, or its energetic twirling trying to take hold of itself. There are no objects outside of ourselves, even when it looks as though they are. So the delusion that Dogen is talking about is couched in a belief that the objects of the world are separate from us. So we have to believe it. We see it, but believing it is the problem, not seeing it. So since the dharmadhatu, the whole thing, the whole works, the entirety of the universe, is never outside of ourself, where would we stand? then there is no enlightenment outside of delusion either.

[06:27]

Finding within ourselves the confluence of delusion and enlightenment is what the Buddha ancestors call thus. You can't find delusion in the confluence, and you can't find enlightenment there either. You aren't even there. And yet, why does Dogen Zenji present delusion and enlightenment in any way at all if the entire world is the Genjo koan? You know, there's another koan. Why are we even talking about it? You know, there's nothing to find. So Nityar Boksam says about that, if you say that cheeks are soft and therefore soft things are cheeks, you are implying that they are one and the same thing. And this is a bad equation that has no meaning. So Dogen is making this statement about carrying the self forward and experience married things as delusion and married things coming forth and illuminating the self in order to explain that there clearly are delusion and enlightenment, even in the realm of the Genjo Koan.

[07:32]

The work that Dogen is giving us to do in this teaching is to keep us moving, you know, is to not to get stuck in either one side or the other of any two propositions. Nor should we get stuck in trying to squash those two things together to make their differences vanish. So in order to go beyond the either-or or the this-and-that mindset that we humans have cultivated to such a high degree, we need to consider the self in this paragraph as the self of the entire world. To carry that self forward and experience myriad things is a more interesting proposition. So in which case, each of the myriad things is the self, is the entire world, and there are no myriad things that are outside of the self. This brings to mind Indra's net. from the Flower Ornament Sutra. And I've shown you some digital images of Indra's net. Each single jewel is reflecting all of the other jewels. You know, they're all seeing each other and every one of them is seeing the entirety and so on.

[08:34]

This is one of the wonderful images that comes from that incredible sutra that I told you we had been reading now in our seniors meeting, which is very disturbing to the mind that likes things to be a little more organized and linear. So then, where the first sentence reads, to carry the self forward and practice or realize the myriad dharmas is delusion, does not mean that there is delusion where there is delusion. Okay, let me say that again. When the first sentence here, to carry the self forward and practice, realize the myriad dharmas is delusion, does not mean that there is delusion, where there is delusion, as a loss, or as a mistake, an error. It means that delusion in the midst of the Buddha Dharma in which all things are Buddha Dharma is in no way separate or even distinguishable from enlightenment isn't that good news delusion is not a problem it's just a delusion that's all you know you can't distinguish it from enlightenment could you could you distinguish your delusions from enlightenment I'm pretty sure I wouldn't even know where to start so books on then says understanding the next sentence

[09:48]

when myriad dharmas come forth and illuminate the self as enlightenment, is not possible to understand unless you practice. So this is where kind of the rubber meets the road. You know, the pointer always for our Zen ancestors is to practice. You know, the intellectual understanding won't get you very far. In fact, it will always lead to some kind of a dead end. So when you practice sitting upright in what's called self-fulfilling samadhi, you find yourself at the confluence of enlightenment and delusion in which neither one can be grasped or characterized in any way. Is this delusion? Or is this enlightenment? You know? And who's asking? So whether the self is carried forward or the myriad dharmas are coming forth appears to be the same from that point of view. In other words, there is practice and realization in one sitting, there is delusion and enlightenment in one sitting, self and other in one sitting, effort and no effort, coming and going in one sitting.

[10:55]

You know, we don't need too many words or any words at all in one sitting, just sitting. The entire world comes forth and turns somersaults at our feet. So this is the realm of non-effort, where effort and no effort are conjoined. In the realm of non-effort, just as in the realm of non-thinking, the entire Dharma Datu becomes the Buddha seal and the entire sky turns into enlightenment. This practice realization is based on a thorough investigation and should not be declared too soon in the beginning of our practice, which I think is always the case, as Suzuki Roshi said, beginner's mind. Zen mind, beginner's mind. So we're always beginning our practice. Every day I'm beginning my practice. Every time I sit on that chair in the zendo in the morning is I've never sat on it before. I can't possibly remember what it was like yesterday. And I have no idea what it's going to be like tomorrow. It's just when I sit, that's all there is.

[11:59]

This practice realization is based on a thorough investigation. And Boksan then says that the oneness of the self and the others will naturally be understood without any explanation when you penetrate where the border lies between delusion and enlightenment. Where is the border between delusion and enlightenment? So once you understand that border between delusion and enlightenment, you naturally understand the genjo koan of delusion and enlightenment. within the Buddha Dharma of all dharmas." How's that for a thorough wash, spin and dry? As I've been feeling reading this stuff and going like, what? And I go, okay, let's just keep at it. Let's just keep spinning. You know, that's what they're doing. That's what Dogen's doing and that's what Bokusan's doing and Suzuki Roshi is doing. They got spinning some time ago and they just keep doing it round and round and round. Look at it this way. Now look at it that way. Now don't look at it at all. Oh, now go back the other way.

[13:01]

So I hope that you can feel that energetic movement of these words that Dogen has set loose into the human world. Words and phrases kind of like giddy wild monkeys in a candy store trying to find something sweet to eat. How about this one? Nope. How about that one? Nope. How about those? Nope. How about these? Nope. How about all of them? Okay, I'll take them all. So Dogen's words and phrases have a way of picking at our cherished beliefs in our separate selves and our deep faith in the possibility of knowing something, you know, of acquiring knowledge, of that wonderful possibility of an aha, you know, or a eureka, you know, I found it, that thing. Bogusan says that practice of plumbing the depths of reality isn't limited to any one form. It's not limited to being high or being low or some flat line in between. Sometimes we need to go to the top of the mountain and sometimes to the bottom of the sea with the sadness we might feel about those lives that were recently lost there.

[14:07]

Sometimes we sit in the middle of the prairie with no mountains or oceans in sight. The point being, is that it's no use to say such things as originally there is no one thing or enlightenment is not obtainable before we have our own feet firmly settled on solid ground. Who's talking? Who's talking? So on the other hand, it is equally foolish to stand at the foot of a ladder or the base of a mountain for a lifetime bounded by reasoning and causality with no foreseeable way to climb up to the top. Other than, I am going to climb to the top of the mountain. And then doing it. So the practice the Boksan recommends is going to that place up the mountain and looking back at that place down the mountain from where you've come. So going to the ultimate truth, Ri, and then looking back at the relative truth.

[15:10]

and continuing in such a way for years and years and years, asking ourselves all along the way, what? What? What? So there's no way to do such a practice without a self, you know, a straightforward self that has given up on gadgets and tricks. Again, as it says in the Jewel Mira Samadhi, like a fool, like an idiot. When the self is completely the self, there is no self. There's no room for anything else. When there is no self, there is no other. In such a case, whether you like it or not, delusion and enlightenment are one suchness, one thusness. So the discrimination between self and other is nothing more than how they interact. The excitement one feels at the touch of a hand or at the feeling of the breeze on your cheek, or at the sound of a baby quail rustling around in the grass, as they're doing right now here at Gringold, these tiny little fuzzy balls, or at the taste of a veggie burger, such as the one we had for lunch yesterday.

[16:19]

It's exciting. All of that. It's exciting for us. It excites us. It brings us to life. There's nothing that we can take up or grasp that is delusion. Nothing we can take up or grasp that is enlightenment. Nothing to get rid of, nothing to understand, to say, to remember, or to forget. Because delusion and enlightenment are the one body of the self, nothing comes forth from outside the self. There is no outside, and the self has nowhere to hide. There's no inside either. So whether two steps forward or nine steps back, the self and the universe are always dancing together. Although practice requires two separate dharmas, a self and another, or a subject and an object, it's only the dualistic views of subject and object that are not the Buddha Dharma, that are not the Buddhist teaching. Being free of dualistic views of subject and object allows us to function in the world of appearances, in which the self is the self, and the dharmas are dharmas, and nothing gets in the way.

[17:30]

Without hindrance, we can behave freely in the world, unbounded by delusions of separation. To carry the self forward is not the self of the ego. It's the self that turns the great Dharma wheel. When the self is facing the side of relative truth, there is delusion. When the self is facing the side of ultimate truth, there is enlightenment. So which side is this? And how can you tell? Suzuki Rishi says about this paragraph, Well, who is Buddha? Buddha is someone who understands ignorance. And who are people? People are ignorant about enlightenment. To simply live in each moment makes everything possible. Precepts, enlightenment, and freedom from rigid sectarian views. And as he said to his students down at Tassajara, it's recorded in Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, Buddhism isn't like those other religions. It's not like Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Islam, or Buddhism.

[18:33]

He then says, sometimes we say comparatively, this is a good and this is a bad. This way of talking about life is sometimes necessary. But this comparative good or bad creates a lot of difficulties for us. It intellectualizes our life. And when you intellectualize your life, it will eventually come to a dead end. When you say this is absolutely good and that is absolutely bad, then it doesn't mean good or bad anymore. Nothing is absolutely one way or the other. Which is why the Buddha taught his monks the middle way that avoids the extremes of any kind. We say things are good or bad without knowing what good or bad even means. When we have no particular concrete idea of good or bad, we expose ourselves and we accept criticism. That is enlightenment. When we have no particularly concrete idea of good or bad, we expose ourselves and we accept criticism. That is enlightenment.

[19:37]

I think you might have heard that story, Reb tells it often, of the monk who's been accused by the farmer of fathering his daughter's child. And so the farmer, quite angry, brings the baby to the monk and says, you're the worst monk that ever lived. And the monk says, is that so? And takes the baby. And then sometime later, the farmer finds out that it was the boy next door who had gotten his daughter pregnant. So he goes back up to the monastery and tells the monk, you are the best monk that ever lived. Can I please have the baby back? And the monk says, is that so? So I think one way Reb tells that story that I appreciated him going over it again is that he said when he was a young practitioner, he thought, is that so? It was kind of like, is that so? You know, is that so? Am I the best? Am I the worst? And he said, then as he's gotten older, it was more like, is that so? Am I the worst? You know, am I the best?

[20:39]

Much more of an inquiring look at ourselves and what others think of us, much more open, much more filled with some humility, the possibilities that we really don't know who we are. Are we good? Are we bad? Hard to say. so um since most of our life is unconscious you know like 99 of our life is unconscious about one percent is we're conscious of at any given time and then when we say i'm right this is only a very small fraction of ourself and the more we understand ourselves the less we know you know we know that we just really don't know and in most cases don't know is right So that's why Dogen says, to know what is delusion is enlightenment. Most of what we think, most of what we assume, most of what we impose on the world of our ideas is delusional. And the more we know that, that's enlightenment.

[21:42]

So we can't escape from ignorance in order to attain enlightenment because enlightenment is not somewhere else. You just don't know it. So these words, delusion and enlightenment, shouldn't be bothering us. Once we understand ourselves completely, there is no special thing to disturb us. Delusion is enlightenment, enlightenment is delusion. If, on the other hand, we say, I have consciously attained enlightenment, then that consciousness is deluded. Therefore, there is nothing at all to understand for an enlightened person other than delusion. When you actually attain enlightenment, what you grasp is delusion. And when you understand how ignorant you have been doing that, that is enlightenment. Do you get it? Such good stuff. I actually get kind of a thrill reading this material and go, whoa, whoa. A student asked Suzuki Roshi, what is the oneness of duality?

[22:46]

And Roshi knew that the student would have to suffer with that question for a very, very long time. And he couldn't really help him. He couldn't explain it to him. So until we suffer with our questions, until we are desperate for answers, until we try very, very hard to understand something like the oneness of duality, we won't be able to understand. By our long effort, finally, we understand. Oh, this is the oneness of duality. It's when we see things and do things with our whole heart and don't understand, and then we go beyond ourselves. That's the oneness of duality that we've been searching for. So at this point, I am going to read a couple more paragraphs, which you can chew over for yourselves for next Sunday. And I thought, at this pace, then I'm moving, we're going to take a very long time getting to through the Genjo Kwan. But there's a lot of fun stuff in here to think about. So I thought it would be nice if you all read it through, you know, a couple of times.

[23:50]

Maybe if you have time this week to read it over a little bit. Give it some thought. Maybe you might jot down a note or two. What? What are they doing? So what we are now on second paragraph, by the way. To carry yourself forward and experience myriad things is delusion. That the myriad things come forth and experience themselves is awakening. Those who have great realization of delusion are Buddhas. Those who are greatly deluded about realization are sentient beings. Further, there are those who continue realizing beyond realization, who are in delusion, throughout delusion. When Buddhas are truly Buddhas, they do not necessarily notice that they are Buddhas. However, they are actualized Buddhas who go on actualizing Buddhas. So understanding or thinking you're a Buddha is delusion, right? Not knowing whether you are or not, and really working on delusion and trying to understand not only your own, but try to be in relationship with the delusions which are driving our world and our friends and all of this into such a mess.

[25:04]

Trying to understand delusion is enlightenment. That's our job. We're not trying to go somewhere else and get out of it. We don't want to get out of it. We want to be right in the middle of it and see what we can do to help untangle the tangle that we have created. When you see forms or hear sounds fully engaging body and mind, you grasp things directly. Unlike things and the reflections in the mirror, and unlike the moon and its reflection in the water, when one side is illuminated, The other side is dark. I would particularly invite you to see if you can figure this one out. I've worked on this one a long time, you know, and every once in a while, I think I sort of go, maybe I get it. And then I don't, I really don't. So it's intriguing. And I think there's a lot of meaning in there. So hopefully you can help me to figure out what is he talking about here? Unlike things and the reflections in the mirror,

[26:06]

And unlike the moon and its reflection in the water, when one side is illuminated, the other side is dark. This one's better. To study the Buddha way is to study the self. You've heard this one often because most of us who give talks here often give this paragraph as a good example of what we're doing, what we're up to in our Zen studies. To study the Buddha way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind, as well as the bodies and minds of others, drop away. No trace of realization remains, and this no trace continues endlessly. When you first seek Dharma, you imagine you are far away from its environs. but Dharma is already correctly transmitted.

[27:07]

You are immediately your original self. When you ride in a boat and you watch the shore, you might assume that the shore is moving. But when you keep your eyes closely on the boat, you can see it's the boat that moves. Similarly, if you examine myriad things with a confused body and mind, you might suppose that your mind and nature are permanent. When you practice intimately and return to where you are, It will be clear that nothing at all has unchanging self. Nothing at all has unchanging self. This is a primary principle of Buddhist teaching. Impermanence. No self, impermanence. And suffering. Those are the big three. Firewood becomes ash. It does not become firewood again. And yet, do not suppose that the ash is the future and the firewood is the past. You should understand that firewood abides in the phenomenal expression of firewood, which fully includes past and future, and is independent of past and future.

[28:12]

So here again, we have this pivoting, you know, it's like, I almost get it, and then he goes, wait a minute. As soon as you're going to get it, they're going to do something like, they're going to kind of turn it from you, pull it out of your hand, you know, nope. Too quick, too quick. You should fully understand that firewood abides in the phenomenal expression of firewood, which fully includes past and future. So all things include where they come from, and they include what's next. I think some of you are familiar with the Dhammapada, which was one of the first teachings that really caught me as, like, profound. I thought, whoa, this is really profound in terms of what I need to understand about my experience of myself and of the world. So in the very beginning of the Dhammapada, the Buddha says, what we are today comes from our thoughts of yesterday. It's kind of like the firewood thing. What we are today comes from our thoughts of yesterday. And our present thoughts build our life of tomorrow.

[29:16]

Our life is a creation of our mind. So those who think thoughts like they hate me, they beat me, they robbed me, they cheated me. If you think such thoughts, you'll never be free from hate. They beat me, they robbed me, they cheated me. Those who think not such thoughts will be free from hate. Hate is not conquered by hate. Hate is conquered by not hating. Those who live in this world understand that, do not fight against each other. in the early years when we had another translation of those verses, I thought, or we thought, it was, hate is conquered by love. Sounds kind of good, but really? It's like kind of a big jump to go from hate to love. But the idea of going from hate to not hating, I can feel that in my stomach. I can feel like, I think I could access that. I think there's some way that I could work through what I experienced as hate.

[30:22]

and find a way to open that, to break that open. And then maybe love might come, but the first thing is to stop hating. That's our first step, and I think there's some access to that. Ash abides in the phenomenal expression of ash, which fully includes future and past. Just as firewood does not become firewood again after it is ash, you do not return to birth after death. And this being so, it is an established way in the Buddha Dharma to deny that birth turns into death. Accordingly, birth is understood as no birth, and death is understood as no death. Birth is an expression that is complete this moment, and death is an expression that is complete this moment. They are like winter and spring. You do not call winter the beginning of spring, nor summer the end of spring. So, anyway, if you have resources, if you have that book on the Genjo Koan, the three commentaries, you might glance at what Nichira Bokasan had to say, Suzuki Roshi and Uchiyama Roshi.

[31:36]

But also just thinking about it, how it strikes you, how these words move around in your own sense of practice, of what it is that these words might help you with, what's personal about it. And sometimes I feel like it's maybe abstract or just my mind is running around trying to understand things. And I feel as though that's part of the challenge is how do I bring my actions in the world in alignment with some of these pivots, pivoting. When I'm stuck, how might I utilize some of these teachings to oil, to grease, Grease the hub of the wheel and get moving again. So I think that's the intention of all of these teachings is to help us get unstuck from self-clinging, you know, from our ideas about the world. So that's the invitation to all of you.

[32:39]

And there's lots of time right now. It's 5.37. So if you would like to bring up something and we can have a talk, I would enjoy that. Hi, Marianne. Good evening, Sangha. Good evening, Fu. Thank you. Thank you for your teaching. You know, you're almost second to the last line of what you shared tonight. Nothing at all has an unchanging self. So I really appreciated that. And the reason is that, like a flash, I just had this insight, and that is that the Eightfold Path. Every time I looked at the Eightfold Path, you know, in Buddhism, I was very inspired myself into Catholic moral teachings.

[33:47]

So right insights, right thoughts, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right. So the right was like this unchanging. Yeah, yeah. Unchanging good. The standard. There's a lot of fluidity here that we're listening to and trying to catch. And I'm thinking maybe that word right. I mean, I don't know what it is in Japanese, but maybe that word right really means something more like watch. Oh, that's your livelihood. Watch your attention. Watch your mindfulness. Watch your practice. You engage in it. And as you're instructing us, as you know, as we're learning, you know, Dongshan is trying to tell us to be attentive to all of those dimensions. But it isn't like that fixed standard. I keep looking for the fixed standard. I mean, that's because my tradition, we have a metaphysics and there's a fixed standard there.

[34:49]

But I was just saying, what a way to grasp that Eightfold Path in a different way. Really good. Good work. No, that's really good. Yeah, I had that same problem. for a long time. And I would teach classes on right path and the right this and I got somebody went, that seems wrong. Right, seems wrong. And it, it feels like nouns instead of verbs. Oh, way out the way I teach it is writing views. Right, good. Writing intention, writing speech, you know, like a sailboat, you don't write, you can't sail upright, you know, it doesn't you can't, you have to be writing your your effort all the time looking for that that's a standard it is a standard but it's not one that you're trying to to maintain you know you won't be able to move if you hold stiff to some kind of idealized standard right we we can feel that so it really is an alive inquiry as you said watch it think about it look at it is this right speech is that right speech am i am i am i

[35:58]

actively looking and exploring, or do I think there's a standard, and I know what it is? Yes. I'm going to tell you. And you write it down. Right. And you get this code, and once you get this code, then you are a perfect person. That's right. And even though we know in our guts, we know that's not true. We know that we're failed. We know that. There's one continuous mistake. It's just so deeply true. You know, no one has to tell me. I'm just like, oh yeah, it's never right. It's just always best guess, you know, best effort that I can do right now. And just in this moment, which is also fluid, there's no right now either. It's just this kind of flowing down the creek, down the river with all your friends, trying your best not to hurt anybody, you know, and we're not in control of the river. You know, we're really, the best we can do is kind of learn how to swim or learn how to sail.

[36:59]

And it circles around to the very first thing that you said that is so important for Dogon, and that is practice. So all the Eightfold Poles is a practice. That's right. That's right. It's a way of life. it's not it's not uh the end of suffering so the four you know the eightfold path as you said is the fourth of the four noble truths so the first noble truth is and the second are cause and effect the cause of suffering is your desire that things be different than they are based in ignorance that things are the way they are there's nothing you can do about it you know except learn to swim so then this third and fourth noble truth is there is a cessation of suffering And the cause for the cessation of suffering is what you just recited, the Eightfold Path, which is not, it's not a, oh, I want to know the cause for the cessation of suffering. Well, it's not a thing. It's a way of living. It's the way you live your life, which is vibrant, alive, complex, you know, it's got all, we all know that, all of us, every one of us has an incredibly vibrant life.

[38:07]

Whether we get out of bed or not, It's vibrant. It's very, you know, there's this electrical charge that runs through us at all times. So I think you caught the ring. Well, thank you. Very helpful. Thank you. Good, good. Yeah. Helene. Hello, everyone. Hi, Fu. Hi, Helene. Hi. I've got this message up here. I don't know what to do with it. I'm afraid to click on it. Can you still hear me? We're with you. Okay. Yes. You know, sometimes you click on something. Yeah, and it explodes. I know. I don't trust my computer at all.

[39:09]

When I mentioned Joshu's Mu last week, and I don't know if that's... I mean, I started looking back at the Mumonkand because I went through numerous koans, but there were only certain koans that really kind of grabbed me. Like, it was different for different. But anyway... Joshu's move has really been speaking to me a lot lately about the concept of just, um, well, I mean, it sounds repetitive to just say no, but it, it is, it is such a, um, an overall marker.

[40:10]

I mean, you can kind of apply it to everything. Very easily. So I'm just really kind of, it's just kind of going through me now. And I'm, you know, because I worked on Unmove for quite a while. And I know there are people who work on it for years. And, you know, but I'm still working on it, even more so now than now that I have a little bit more of an understanding, it becomes an even bigger challenge. So it's like I'm not done with it, but it is sort of exploded on me. Moved into your house. Yeah, right.

[41:13]

Exactly. Yeah, that's great. That's what it's supposed to do. And the trouble is getting rid of it. Do you want to say some more about that? It doesn't say it's rent. It's not very nice. It's just... It's just a big blob. But yeah, well, you know, I'm sure you know that the two koans, the two first koans in Mu Mankan, that Mu, you know, it's the wrong question. He's asking the question, does the dog have Buddha nature? Well, that's the wrong question. What kind of question is that? No, it's to the question, dumb question. Right, exactly. But it throws the monk, because he thinks it has to do with the dog, you know. And he's really talking about himself. Do I have Buddha nature? Please tell me, I do. No. I'm not going to tell you. So you work on that yourself. So it's wonderful. It throws you back, right? It throws you back onto your own devices and your own sense of things.

[42:18]

Why am I doubting? Why am I doubting myself? Buddha says I have Buddha nature. I'm going to say, Buddha, you're wrong. It's like, what about accepting that? How about allowing that to be so? How about you're already enlightened? Okay, I'll take that on. Now what do I do? How do I live that? So it's a wonderful koan. And then the next one, equally valuable. So the first one is about the ultimate truth. It's the heart sutra. No eyes, no ears, no dog, no nature, no Buddha nature, no self, no suffering. So we work that one through. Maybe... Maybe no questions? No questions, no answers, no Roshi, no student, you know, all of that. No, no, no, no. So then, you know, you're kind of clearing the board, right? And then the second koan of the Yakujo and the Fox, you know, this is about the relative truth.

[43:20]

So the first one socks you with the ultimate truth, and the second one warms you back up again. with the relative truth. Yakusha told his students that a person of the way is not subject to cause and effect. We all know that's weird. Really? But we've heard the teachings that that's not true. So we're not turning away from suffering. We're in the midst of it. We are it. We have it. We own it. It's what makes us. that that a person of the way would not be subject to cause and effect. He said he said no, you know, kind of like about himself, probably as the Zen master. And then he's reincarnated for 500 lifetimes as a fox meaning karma foxes, the animal that represents karma fox drool means karma, your fox, your fox is drooling, it's your you're oozing karma. So, so the so then the the old Old Yakusho asks the new Yakusho, where did I go wrong?

[44:24]

I'd like to get freed up from this fox body, can you help me? And the new Yakusho, it's like his younger self and his older self, having a little conversation with each other. He said, what would you say, teacher? And the young one says, well, a person of the way does not ignore cause and effect, is not ignorant of cause and effect. So we study delusion, that's... teaching we study delusion we study the workings of the wheel of karma that's our job is to really understand delusion thoroughly so those two are compliments they they basically the first one helps us to clarify the ultimate truth and the second one helps us to come back to life to plump up again and be a real girl and a real boy and a real in between whatever we are to take that on and to uh and to keep studying you know keep get that yeah i'm so glad moves in your house that's great and i'll bring yakujo in too yes they're twins yes okay i will all right good okay thank you i see a little hand on paul's forehead oh no it's green it's on my forehead hi kate hi

[45:43]

So I've always loved and been drawn to the first two sentences of this paragraph. To carry yourself forward and experience myriad things is delusion. That myriad things come forth and experience themselves is awakening. In my little boat, that sort of shimmers. But it goes so fast when we chant it. Yeah. You want to throw your anchor out right there, huh? Yes, yes. I want to grab onto something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think that's very sweet for you to tell us that. A little bit of attachment to that phrase. What I used to do with things like that is to calligraph them. I practiced my italic writing on phrases I thought were really great. I said, well, I don't want to just read that again. I want to put it in my hand. I want to put it on some paper and, you know, put it on the wall.

[46:48]

So one of them I did was, you say you're innocent while clutching the lute, you know, the bag of lute. I wrote that. I like that one too. Yeah. So I think you could do that, Kate. You could do it in glitter, glitter glue or anything that really makes you, you know, playful. Hopefully it would be a playful thing. I like this line. It works for me. So much of it is so difficult for me that when there's something that I can slightly grasp a little bit, I just want to hang on to it. Oh, good. I think that's a really healthy impulse. You can't, but I think you should go ahead and try as hard as you can. Because it's by exerting our full, you know, our power, all of our power, that we realize there's nothing to get. But it's only if you really try. If you don't try, you'd think maybe if I tried, I could get it.

[47:49]

But if you try, and you really try all the way down, then you understand, oh, it can't be gotten. Holy cow. But telling you that is worthless. Only you know whether the water is cold or warm. Yes. Yeah. And show me if you do choose to write it out. I'd love to see. Okay. Thank you. Great. Wonderful. I would like to comment on your Sunday talk this morning about the Quaker Which came up again today is the stop hating. So it goes beyond just the resonating or understanding reality to how to act to end the conflict and live in harmony.

[48:57]

seems to me like an ultimate goal of what we're trying to accomplish here, not just an understanding or not just an awakening alone. And I would, I don't know whether this makes any sense, but I would welcome your inclusion of your understanding of Quaker or as you as we all learn more about the Quaker practice, incorporating it into some of these talks as well. I will. That's why I did that one today, because I got so, I got actually a really, it was a confluence of, you know, I grew up as trained as a Christian. I trained. I was taken to church. I wasn't trained. I was just walked in there in my dresses and, you know, and went to Sunday school and had all the imagery. And it was very sweet. It wasn't a hell and the fire and brimstone. It was the Episcopalians. So it's really, you know, kind of high church and everything was very nice.

[49:59]

And all the ladies had on the hats. And it was, you know, it was quite a beautiful place to go and feel something of the sacred, which where else would I have known that, you know, nothing in my... secular culture felt very sacred, you know, still doesn't. But that place really did. And I feel that's where whatever the little heartbeat of my life started, it was there. And so I'm deeply grateful, even though I couldn't go with the tenets of the faith. You know, I had a problem with I hope this doesn't offend anyone, but I had a problem with God. So I was sort of like trying to figure out what to do if I didn't have the God part, what was I going to do about the rest of it, you know? So Buddhism was kind of a great alternative medicine for spiritual people who just can't quite grab the beliefs of whatever tradition. So anyway, I just was so moved reading about the Quakers. And also somebody asked them, do you have to be

[51:00]

a Christian to be a Quaker?" And they said, no, it's optional. I said, what? And then, you know, everything I heard from them sounded so much like my feeling about what I like about Zen. It's really like, if you like it, it's yours. And if you don't, it's okay. Still come to meeting because we're just sitting quietly together. And if you feel inspired to say something, you're welcome to do that. Every voice is heard. And I was like, you know, that's just beautiful. So And I felt that in working with the folks that I'm working with, that they also are taking these tenants seriously in our little working group. And a couple of times we were getting really testy with each other about stuff. Like, well, that wasn't nice. All these long emails that were, you know, conflictual. And I was so impressed by how everyone just kept coming back and saying, well, it sounds like you're not in alignment with this, so we'll keep talking. And I was like, wow. And these are attorneys, you know, they very good at conflict, not resolution, but winning.

[52:04]

And I felt very impressed by how sincere their effort was that everybody is in. And we all nobody gets to say, well, if you don't like it, that's too bad. So that was just, yeah, that was just kind of like magic. So I think we have something to learn from the [...] friends. They call themselves friends. Rev's been calling us comrades for some years. I like that too. Comrades and friends. So I will, Paul, I will certainly as I keep going forward and wanting to know more. There are lots of good little videos on the Kindle website. Two Quaker elders talking together and explaining the tenets of their belief. They talked about the spices and that. That's where I got it all. I got it from this to their videos, two very lovely people who were Quakers for centuries, their families. There are not many left. There are only 75,000 or something in the world.

[53:05]

And so they're kind of going this way. And I think they should go that way. I think they should become them and us together. I think it would be a really good marriage for what's ailing our humanity. So anyway, I am encouraged, and I would love to share that with you. Thank you for bringing that in. I guess I had, without thinking about it much, had thought that the Enzo experience was, what is it, Zen? Inspired. And Zen inspired, yes. And I hadn't been thinking of it as being, we're going into Quaker inspired practice. Overlaying Zen practice or along with together, yes. And they need to know that we feel that way. One reason I give a public lecture about that is I want the Kendall people to know that I'm not holding up.

[54:10]

I don't think anyone is, but maybe we don't know enough. But I think the more we all learn, the more we're going to understand this is a good marriage. And we can respect each other. all the way down to the depths of our, of our traditions. I just rewatched certain parts of, of friendly persuasion. If you did you see that film? It was back in the 60s. I think we need to see it now. Oh, it's so sweet. There's a meeting is so sweet that everyone the men come in and sit on one side, the women come in, and they just sitting there. And the kids are kind of, you know, like, and And then someone speaks. And then someone else says something. Anyway, it was just absolutely lovely. And there's a beautiful song too. There's a love affair. There's some challenges about one of the sons who's, or the daughter's in love with a soldier. And Gary Cooper is perfect elder.

[55:12]

He's perfect in the role. Anyway, I'd love to hear what you think. Yes, the presentation about the Quaker background or lineage to the Enzo, to Kendall and Enzo, always sounded good. You know, it was sort of, yeah, that sounds great. But your talk today now, I see, I'm understanding, getting a glimpse of that it's really together. It's really important. It's really important. Zen and Quakers coming together. It is, and I think if we are not careful, you know, people are worried about us. Maybe you guys aren't, but some people are. What are they going to do to us, you know? And I'm like, I'd be worried too, if I didn't know anything. Yeah, this is scary. Like we're going into some kind of indoctrination zone, cult. In California. Yeah, it's California, same as for cults. Yeah, and I think we need to be very respectful.

[56:17]

I said to some Zen inspired not Zen required. Yeah. I mean, atheists are welcome. You know, you don't have to have any spiritual inclinations whatsoever. You know, maybe you just like to go out for wine now and then or have coffee or whatever is that's fine. That but we that we don't separate that we don't create a situation where there's an in crowd and then there's the other rest of everybody else. And anyway, I'm I'm I'm really interested in what this community is going to become, and it isn't there yet. We don't have one. It's unfolding. It's coming together. It's creating. It's in creation. As you said today, it doesn't exist yet. We're not creating it. We are. We are. And you guys and other friends and the people I'm getting to know, it's going to be our show. We're going to have an amazing, unique opportunity to do that. and invite all of you all to come and visit us, because we want you to know what we're doing, and certainly we'll share our learnings as we go along, because you're in it too.

[57:24]

Everyone's in, as Dogen said that. Well, good. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you both. Oh, good. Marianne, good. You helped me with that. You must know a lot about the Quakers. You're very big now, my tech person. All right, all right, all right. All right, thank you. Thank you. I just want to share, again, thank you, Fu, for your talk this morning. It was exquisite, really well done, and we learned a lot. But for over, I want to say, almost close to 30 years, there has been a project where the Quaker teaching of a famous leader by the name of Gene Knutson, has joined forces with Thich Nhat Hanh's deep listening practice and is called the Compassionate Listening Project. Wow. And it was founded by Jean and Leah Green.

[58:27]

And it was founded principally to teach how to deal with conflict in the most difficult places. They started, they continue to do it in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the German-Jewish dialogue. And when I was teaching Muslim, Christian, Jewish dialogue, I still do, but I would teach also with practice. And we did it through using the compassionate listening practice. It is just amazing. It's just if the Sangha wants to know, it's just compassionate listening dot org. It is a most fundamental training. I have been giving the training myself. through Indonesia, to Indonesia, to China, to Hong Kong, to Bangladesh. I brought it back to Asia. And it was such a privilege to go to Bangladesh and to Chennai and to say, look, this belongs here. Hong Kong, this belongs here. Yes, it can. You know, it didn't come from America.

[59:29]

I came from America. This belongs here. But it really is. It's really a wonderful training. People can take the training. And it's just and it is this project. of Zen and Quakerism coming together in teaching people how to listen. And one of the principal teachings of compassionate listening is that conflict is our teacher. Conflict is our teacher. And so you pay attention to conflict because what's happening there is your value, your facts might be in conflicting, your feelings may be conflicting. But at the deepest level, your values, there are some similarities there within the differences. And there are differences within the similarities. And, of course, the symbol for compassionate listening is the lotus. And why the lotus? Because the roots of the lotus go deep into the mud.

[60:29]

And those roots are really the values. They're really what really show up in our feelings and facts. And if we can get to that value level, we find areas where we can begin to not hate. That's beautiful. It's a beautiful practice. And I just share it with the Sangha here. It's something that I very much train people for and practice in myself. Oh, thank you so much. I will look it up. I mean, it's already my techie is looking at me right now. Great. We will follow up on that. That's a wonderful gift. Thank you so much. Thank you. Helene, you want to come back again? Yeah, just for a second. You know, there's a wonderful Broadway play called Plain and Fancy that I was turned on to when I was a kid at camp. And it's all about the Amish. And it's a whole musical, wonderful lyrics and dancing and singing.

[61:36]

It's a great Broadway play to check out. It's called Plain and Fancy. Thank you. Thank you. I just found out this morning I was saying something to our new abbot, Jirio. I said, you're Mennonite, aren't you? And he said, half. My other half is Quaker. So it's so amazing how all these threads are starting to be woven in here among us. You know, these things haven't actually been said lately. So I'm just getting more and more excited. I'm starting to get red by how excited I am that we are finding these connections and we'll keep building them. I think we'll just keep Well, I think the Mennonites and the Amish all kind of live together in that area of Pennsylvania around Harrisburg and Carlisle. Yeah. [...] Very cool. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you all. I'm going to make myself small again. It's a magic trick. Oh, you're going to do it?

[62:37]

Sorry. I'm not supposed to do that. Are you going to do that? I'm not little. Yeah, I thought so. Okay. Okay. There we go. Okay. You're welcome to whatever you do. Unmute if you'd like to say goodbye. Thank you so much, Fu. Thank you, Fu. Good night, everyone. Good night. Thank you so much, everyone. Good night, everybody. Good night. Bye. Bye. Bye.

[63:10]

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