Good morning. Good morning. This morning we'll continue with where we left off last time, but next time I want to start I want to go back to the Five Ranks and do a study from Hakuin's commentary on the Five Ranks, but not this time. Next time. Even if we don't finish the whole Onkyo Zamai. From this point on, it's more or less examples.

[01:01]

We don't learn a lot that's new, but it's all interesting, of course. But I do want to do a more thorough study of the Five Ranks. So we'll start doing that next time. But this time, we'll continue. And I think we're on page 40. If I'm wrong, let me know. But I think we're on page 40. Where we come to the part where it's talking about a hertz breadth deviation. Hertz breadth deviation. Or is it hair breadth? No. Hertz breadth. Hertz breadth deviation will fail to

[02:05]

accord with the proper attunement. So it's kind of likened to an instrument, a musical instrument. A little bit off, and tuning is wrong. Tuning is not so good, and doesn't sound right. So the slightest deviation means failure of attunement. A slight deviation from it destroys the perfect harmony. Here we have it again. And a slight deviation, and you are not in chord with the harmonious attunement that's complete. That includes all the others. If there is the separation of even a hair's breadth, there won't be harmony. So, oh, even the slightest twitch will surely break the rhythm. I like that one.

[03:06]

So you kind of get the picture that if you're not in accord, perfectly in tune, perfectly in harmony with the mirror, that it doesn't reflect correctly. If you look on the right hand side, there's a note, the Xinqin Ming, I think you studied the Xinqin Ming before, but a hair's breadth difference in heaven and earth are set apart. That's a famous quote from the Xinqin Ming. And then, by no means Zhezang seems to say, the immediate mirror-like awareness should not have the slightest hair of grasping love for anything at all.

[04:12]

And in the Book of Serenity, Xiaoshan asked Elder De, I like this case, case 52 of the Book of Serenity, Xiaoshan asked Elder De, the Buddha's true reality body is like space. The Buddha's true reality body is like space. The true human body is the whole universe, in other words. It manifests form, not from, it manifests form in response to beings, like the moon and the water. How do you explain the principle of response? The response is, how do you explain the principle of response?

[05:18]

Like an ass looking in a well. Xiaoshan said, you said a lot indeed, but you only said 80%. De said, what about you, teacher? And Xiaoshan said, like the well looking at the ass. So, it's like, you look in the well, this is response, right? You look at the well and see a reflection, the ass. You, ass. But what about the ass looking at you? I mean, yeah, the well looking at the ass. That's the principle of response. So, we're always looking at something from our own point of view. This is the realm of duality, we're always looking at something

[06:19]

from our own point of view. And that's discrimination. Yes? Was he stating what is the reality of looking at things from the Buddha nature? Non-duality. That's duality? Non-duality. Yes, from the point of view of non-duality. So, when I'm looked at by the cosmic node, or Buddha nature, this skin bag, which is a non-dual thing, something that's part with you, the whole small. Is that the well looking at the ass?

[07:24]

The well looking at the ass is um, you know, if I explain that, you're going to go away with this picture. Just, just digest it. Just eat this ball of what? And let it give you a stomach ache. So, um, yes, you said a lot, indeed, but you only said 80%. You said the right thing, but it's not complete. The complete part is like the well looking at the ass. Which means, here I go, when the ass is looking in the well,

[08:28]

the reflection becomes an object. So we say, this is me, but that's the object, that's the reflection. But the reflection is also looking at what is reflected. So, you can't take this totally literally, because reflections, you know, don't have consciousness, but you have to see what, because we see things as objects. So it's, it has to do with not seeing things as objects. You're not seeing yourself as an object. When you look at reflection in the mirror, you see an object. Oh, that's my reflection, but actually, that's me.

[09:30]

The mirror itself is me. Myself. So, this is why when Suzuki Roshi translated Tozan's poem, he did it in his own, it's more like his comment, commentarial translation. Don't try to see yourself or the world as an object. The you who is seen as an object is not you yourself. I go my way now, and everywhere I look, I see myself. This is the well looking at the ass. You speak out as big way up. You've got to be even louder. Chorosario. Chorosario. Chorosario.

[10:36]

He talks about what it is to think of things in terms of their dimensions of the world. Even the slightest bit. So, this comes back to Harris-Breadt's deviation. It means, so the mirror reflects things as it is. The mirror only reflects things as it is. But, if the mirror has a mind of its own, then it doesn't do that. Or if a mirror has some idea about things, it doesn't reflect things as it is. It reflects things according to partiality. Or discrimination.

[11:41]

Discrimination means to divide and compartmentalize. So, in discrimination, we take one thing and chop it into pieces. So, we live in discriminated time. There's one long piece of time, but we discriminate it into little pieces. We have one whole piece of cloth, and we discriminate it and put it back together and call it a suit. So, you can use discrimination, but it should fit our discrimination should fit the absolute, like a box in its lid. So, just the fact that we can say an ass in a well is discrimination.

[12:46]

But, if the well is looking at the ass, as well as the ass looking at the well, then that's the box fitting the lid. Can you yourself feel this hair's breadth deviation when it occurs in your body? Can you yourself feel the attunement and harmony? How does it feel? Well... It feels various ways. It feels like, why am I having so many problems? What's the root of my problems? Why do I have so many problems? Would you say it's sort of like that stickiness

[13:53]

that people talk about when you step over the lines a little bit? Yes. It feels like stickiness. It's good. It feels like stickiness. It feels like, gee, I'm off today. How come nobody likes me? And the attunement? How does that feel? Well, how come we never meet quite right? How come I don't really meet with things quite right? Is that the attunement? Attunement, yes. Attunement is not meeting. When notes are out of tune, there are beats. So when you tune two instruments, you listen for the beats.

[14:54]

And when there's no beats, then it's in tune. When you don't hear yourself, but you hear yourself, when everything is perfectly in tune, you disappear. Yeah? I really can't hear you. Out of the? Attunement. Right. Right.

[15:57]

Well, attunement is good. Because when we're in tune with ourself and with the universe, everything flows. I don't like that term, but everything flows. Easily. This is called harmony. Harmonious practice. Bringing harmony to everyone, free from hindrance. We say it all the time, every day. Bringing harmony to everyone free from hindrance is exactly what it's about. So, out of attunement means egotistical, frankly. It means, when we interject our ego,

[17:02]

then it causes bumps. So ego is the biggest hindrance to harmonious... That's what I'm always talking about. Let go of ego in order to merge with it. In order to merge with it. Because ego is what stands in front. You know. It's a hindrance. Blockage. Yes? It reminds me, in solid state technology, radio, when you have a resonance, a particular radio frequency passing through a circuit, and it allows that frequency to pass through you. Yeah, that's right.

[18:04]

This is what practice is about. It's about letting go of the hindrance of ego so that you can be yourself. You should express yourself completely. It means to let go of ego. Then you will be expressing yourself completely. But you won't know it. Knowing it will know it. The problem we have of letting go of ego is that we think that we'll let go of that most precious thing called myself, and I won't know it. Yeah, we all have that problem. What happens when there's no more consciousness? Who will know it? We'll get to that when we study the five ranks.

[19:07]

We'll know who knows it. We'll study who knows it. Everybody wants to hear what you have to say. In attunement, is pain still painful? In attunement, is pain still painful? Is pain still painful? Yes. Pain is always painful. Is emotional pain painful? Emotional pain is painful. In attunement, when you feel pain, you just feel totally painful. Do you have aversion to pain? Aversion. No. No aversion and no grasping. It's called the secret of Zazen. No aversion and no grasping.

[20:11]

But you'll still put your hand away from the flame. Yes. You pull your hand away from the flame. Why? Why? Why do you pull your hand away? Because it'll burn otherwise. I think, you know, I kind of understand your question. But it's... We carry the logic too far. You know, when you're in attunement, you know, oh, this is hot, this is cold. But... ... you have some freedom from grasping

[21:22]

and you have some freedom from aversion. In other words, it's not aversion based on ego or grasping based on ego. But when you stick your hand in the fire, you don't keep it there because you don't want to burn your hand. It's all in relation to self. Self arises with grasping and aversion. You say, well, I still have a self even though there's no grasping and aversion. No. Not in the sense that we mean self. The sense that we mean self is when self arises when there's grasping, aversion and discrimination based on self. That's what we mean by self arising. Otherwise, self doesn't arise. There's simply

[22:26]

as Buddha says, phenomena just rolling on. Phenomena. Just rolling on. ... Yes. I'm wondering if there's a different... if this at all relates, this phrase relates to the moment that Shakyamuni put his hand to the earth and achieved great enlightenment. That kind of moment. There's a difference between the moment before and the moment when he touches. Is there a hair's breadth deviation in there? There's some great shift that happens but I'm not sure what exactly that is.

[23:35]

When he touches the earth it's calling the earth to witness his enlightenment. But if you want to look at it in his end version when Buddha steps as a baby he steps forward, takes seven steps and he puts one hand toward the earth and one hand toward the sky. On Buddha's birthday we have this little statue that we pour sweet tea over. You know that ceremony? And so this is Shakyamuni as a baby actually Siddhartha sticking one finger up to the sky and one hand to the earth. And he says, I alone am the world honored one. And you say, I alone am the what?

[24:39]

That sounds egotistical, right? But we have to understand what the word alone means. Alone, the root of alone is at one. So alone has a double meaning of opposites. At one and alone. So when we think of alone it means isolated. And when we say at one it means totally merged. So it's a wonderful word actually, alone, because it has both this independent individual is at one with the whole universe. So there's no separation. There's no out of tuneness. No hairs, breaths difference. Is that our Buddha nature?

[25:44]

Is what our Buddha nature? Yes, well yes, that's complete merging is Buddha nature. We're never apart from it. Even when we make mistakes. Mistakes are Buddha nature. You know, when Suzuki Roshi talked about who is Buddha, he said, well, when you're hot, you're hot Buddha. When you're cold, you're cold Buddha. When you're sitting in zazen, you're a zazen Buddha. When you make a big mistake, you're a big mistake Buddha. So within practice, everything that you do is Buddha's activity. So, hairs, breaths, deviation is hairs, breaths, deviation

[26:48]

Buddha. I was thinking of the line, like a well looking at the ass. One is Krishnamurti saying, the observer is the observed. And the other one is a Vajrasiddha saying where he said, when the mind is like a hall and thoughts are like a voice in the hall, one knows that that voice is not one's own. So I wonder if that's kind of related, like you're in the hall and there's a voice, but you kind of realize that's not you. Sort of like the ego, you realize that's not you. You see it in the hall, but it's not you. So is that kind of like the well seeing the ass? Well, the first one I think is more like the well seeing the ass.

[27:48]

Yeah, the observer is the observed. More like that. The other one is more like the noise. Noisy mind is not true mind. There's another wonderful saying, the cool breeze flows through the empty hall. I like that one. You said, in practice is everything through that activity? Within practice, yes. Outside of practice is that not the case? What is not practice? Outside of practice is simply

[28:51]

egotistical activity without awareness. So egotistical activity with awareness is inside practice? Yeah, as long as you have the awareness. There's no such thing as egotistical Buddha. Yeah, egotistical Buddha. Buddha understands, this is egotistical. You always enlightenment is understanding or realizing your delusion. When you realize your deluded activity, that's enlightenment. Then inactivity, if you continue with the deluded activity upon realizing it, that's right, you may or may not.

[29:54]

You may not be able to. You may only be able to realize it. So let's turn the page. That reminds me of a little story. When my son was about three, we used to read him these books with a hardcover, and this one was about fire engines. So the firemen are doing this, and the fire engines are running the fire, and then you turn the next page, and there was a fire on the next street. So we all went out to the fire, and the fire trucks said, see this is just like in the book. He said, yeah, turn the page. Now there are sudden and gradual

[31:15]

in connection with which are set up basic approaches. Now there are sudden and gradual on which are set up approaches to the Source. Since there are instant and gradual aptitudes, our sect sets up five different phases. Presently the sudden and gradual teachings have created sectarian approaches. Oh yeah, that's mine. So there are sudden and gradual schools and approaches are established. So this is all about sudden and gradual, and this comes from the Platform Sutra. Well, basically, but there's always been in Buddhism and in Zen, anyway, the sudden and gradual approaches to

[32:16]

enlightenment. The gradual approach is step by step. You learn this, Tibetan practice is very much step-wise practice. And Theravada Vipassana is step-wise practice. Zen is you jump off the pier into the ocean and start swimming. You start at the top. When the Tibetans come to Zen Center, they always say, oh, that's where we end. So we start at the top and go down to the bottom. It's really true. So we start with enlightenment and go down to delusion. We step off into the thing is that enlightenment is what brings us to practice. But we don't

[33:19]

know what that is. So the wonderful thing about sudden enlightenment practice is that you don't have to know anything. You can just start practicing. You just step into the zendo and fold your legs and face the wall and breathe. You don't have to know anything. You don't have to know anything about Buddhism. You don't have to have studied anything. So this is the sudden school. It doesn't mean that you have sudden enlightenment, but it means that you're starting from not knowing. You begin from letting go of all opinions, everything you know, all of your accumulated knowledge. Just shed everything and sit down in zazen. And that's enlightened practice. But you don't know it.

[34:21]

Dogen says something like one may not know that one is Buddha, but one is Buddha. One may not know what enlightenment is, but they are practicing enlightenment. Then we start to accumulate knowledge. So the nicest way to come to practice is not knowing anything. But that's not possible. Only in few cases is it possible. So usually we read something and we learn something and then we start to practice. So that's usual. But anyway, we do start from enlightened practice.

[35:23]

We start from enlightenment and then practice gradual practice. But the way sudden enlightenment is described is that one has an enlightened experience where you see all at once the true nature of things. It all opens up at once. But also that kind of experience is usually after one has practiced gradual practice for a long time. So when Kyogen is sweeping the ground and the stone hits the bamboo, it's because

[36:25]

of his years and years of assiduous practice and giving up. What opened his mind was, seems to be, the bamboo. I mean the stone hitting the bamboo. Crack. Oh, I see it all. But actually the fact that he gave up searching was the catalyst. So Kyogen was Isan student and when he came to and he was very brilliant. He knew a lot about Buddhism and he had some good answers but Isan would not accept him, his answers. So he finally felt dejected. He said,

[37:31]

this is useless. I'm just going to go to the monument of the national teacher and sweep the ground just as an ordinary monk. I don't have anything left. So he just left everything, just forgot all about Buddhism, forgot all about his knowledge, gave up all of his understanding and was just sweeping. Just a simple practice of sweeping and then click and he woke up. So his mind was really prepared by letting go of everything. So it's the same thing. You let go of everything and just it's us. So the Sun versus the idol debate that raged in China, was that a debate about method or was it a debate about

[38:32]

the nature of the enlightenment experience? Well, I think it's both. If you read the Platform Sutra, the Sixth Patriarch says there's this big argument about suddenly and gradually. Some people are very much attuned and understand suddenly. Other people take time and they learn gradually. That's all. But the students various students of the teachers created this gradual sudden split. So this whole thing is in the Sandokai, Sekito is criticizing these people who created this gradual, sudden split. So, in our approach, where it's not

[39:40]

where there aren't steps, and then when you have that figured out, what would be the second practice? Where we just kind of start with the last step. Where what's figured out? In our practice, jumping off the dock into the ocean just learning how to swim that way, it seems like there's this element that we have to deal with at our school that frustration, or just feeling like you're not doing anything and just spending years trying to do what? Because when there's that gradual step, you have a little bit more confidence throughout the whole thing. I would imagine, kind of feel like you're know what you're doing, or know what your goal is, and I was wondering if that's part of the strategy, if there's a good element of that frustration of feeling kind of lost. That's the plan. It's somewhat non-morphous.

[40:41]

Somewhat what? Somewhat non-morphous. It's a little bit like amorphous. The thing is that Zen practice is not learning something. As Dogen says, it's not learning meditation. It's simply the gate of repose and bliss. It's simply the gate of repose and bliss. Ouch! It's not learning meditation. It's not through the head. It's through the pores. That's why you have to open yourself so that you get it through your pores.

[41:45]

That's why we practice over and over and over again. The daily practice. We also study. But the study verifies our practice. So when you come to practice, you sit Zazen and ideally you don't study so much. But then at some point you get curious and you open the book and think, Oh God, that sounds like our practice! And then pretty soon you see how when you study, it verifies what you're actually doing. And you can understand it better than just taking in information. So yes, Zazen, work, harmonious practice. Zen practice is based on intuition.

[42:53]

So intuition means knowing without the intermediary of thought, process. Directly knowing. Directly touching. Without something in between. Without explanation. So you're saying direct experience. You can call it experience. It's, you know, some people will have an experience, an enlightening experience. But, you know, one person's experience that seems tremendous is another person's everyday bread and butter. So when someone says, Oh, I had this tremendous experience,

[43:57]

it may just be coming up to where this person is. So when we talk about experiences, that's fine to have experiences. We should have an enlightenment experience on each moment. It's not like we just suddenly have one enlightenment experience. That's true. That does happen. And sometimes an enlightenment experience is tremendous. And far above everyone else's enlightenment experience. True. But, how you judge enlightenment experiences, the way I judge enlightenment experiences is through someone's actions after. Okay, you had a great enlightenment experience. Now what? How will this person's enlightenment experience play out in two years? Or six months? Or tomorrow?

[45:00]

So we don't put a lot of too much emphasis on having enlightenment experiences. But, we should be able to experience enlightenment all the time. We tend to think enlightenment is like this. But it's like this. You say that enlightenment is ordinary? Yes, ordinary mind is enlightened mind. Ordinary in the ordinary sense. Ordinary in the Buddha sense. Buddha nature sense. Ordinary mind is the way. Shall I pursue it? Well, if you pursue it, you stumble past it. And if you don't pursue it, you ignore it. So, how do you find that?

[46:06]

We have koans in Zen. Rather than giving you information, we give you something that, what? Makes you work. That's called effort. Effort in Zen. Your effort to find out for yourself. But that's, you know. Faculties are sharp or dull. That means some people are smart, and some people are not so bright. The way has no northern ancestors. Because after the Sixth Patriarch, the students of the Sixth Patriarch made a contentious issue of who was the real patriarch. The Sixth Patriarch was the sudden enlightenment teacher, and Shen Hsu was the

[47:08]

gradual enlightenment teacher. But actually, gradual and sudden are really not the same thing. Two aspects of the same thing. So, do the students actually collect the Sixth Patriarch's expounding in the platform, where he talks about gradual and sudden are the same thing? He didn't say gradual and sudden are the same thing. I said that. Okay. You said that. But they're not the same thing. I said they're two aspects of one thing. So, by creating these two diverse schools, were they kind of corrupting these two? Yes, they were. Thank you. You're welcome. They were corrupting. That's what Sekito was talking about in the Sanhokai. So, theoretical elaborations of sudden enlightenment and gradual cultivation began in India

[48:12]

and became a major issue in Chinese Buddhism. The platform searcher presents key differences between the southern and northern schools of Zen in terms of sudden versus gradual. But we don't know who exactly… Shen Hui, probably, who was one of the youngest of the Sixth Ancestors' students, probably inserted all this stuff into the platform searcher about sudden and gradual and the polarizing views. So, polarized views of sudden and gradual have their basis in differing views of the awakened nature and the nature of delusion. The import of sudden awakening is to emphasize an epistemological chasm between delusion and realization. The light of delusion never reveals the darkness of realization, even though they do interpenetrate, whatever that means. So, from the platform sutra, Shen Hui's poem,

[49:12]

which is gradual practice, Our body is the Bodhi tree, and our mind is a mirror bright. Carefully we wipe them hour by hour, and let no dust alight. And then, Hui Neng saw this gatha, and he wrote his own gatha, which says, There is no Bodhi tree, no stand of a mirror bright, since all is void, where can the dust alight? So, one is talking about gradual practice, the other is talking about sudden enlightenment. And so, it looks like Hui Neng won. But actually, both aspects are important. Sudden enlightenment and gradual practice. You can't have one without the other. So, why did the transmission go to Queen England? I don't know. Because he felt that Hui Neng

[50:17]

you know, it's very interesting. Hsu was an old man, and he was a scholar, and Hui Neng was supposedly uneducated, and couldn't read, but his intuitive understanding the patriarch felt that his intuitive understanding was key. Whether it had anything to do with the gatha or not. So, according to the sutra, he recognized his gatha, and he said, come and see me in the middle of the night.

[51:21]

That's pretty much fabrication. But, the fact that he saw in Hui Neng as a young man with great intuitive understanding that this should be the person. And this was a Buddha who appeared in China. I don't think it had anything to do with the gatha particularly. At least though, in the story, there is the difference that Hui Neng, like he riffed on Chen Shui's poem, like he took what was already there and he turned it. Which, I mean, you can imagine somebody presenting the teaching of emptiness, and then somebody else riffing on that. Like maybe Dōgen is saying, although we live in the present moment, we prepare tomorrow

[52:24]

so it's cool tonight. So he can take and kind of like turn that phrase, and so it's maybe not so much that he was able to present one side or the other and one side better than the other, but by making a commentary on the other poem, he included both sides. Well, it looks to me more like a compliment. A complimentary gatha rather than a discriminatory gatha. It's completed, the other part. That's the way I've always seen it. So my comment says, suddenly gradual became an issue of contention among the students of Hui Neng. The Sando Kai criticizes this kind of splitting. It's not one or the other, we need both. So, Yes.

[53:25]

In Sheng Yen's commentary, I wonder what you think of this, Sheng Yen comments of the two approaches. By and large, we need gradual approach. He describes sudden approach on the method as requiring an energy so powerful no practice is necessary after great enlightenment is attained. Do you see it that way? No. No, I don't. I don't. I think that Sheng Yen has hundreds of students, but I don't know how close he is to them. When you're close to people, that's where it really matters. You can lecture to big audiences here and there, but when you're actually practicing day by day with people, that's what makes a big difference.

[54:28]

I was wondering about something by somebody who practices different type of Buddhism. Different type of Buddhism? Yeah. Based on your comic makeup, a certain sect or a certain school of Buddhism may be right for you. Who in this practice can tell us what comic makeup we have and whether or not this practice is the best for us? Well, come see me. I often tell people, this may not be the right practice for you. Can you determine which one is? Are you able to determine which one is? Oh, I might. Maybe Tibetan practice is good for you, or

[55:35]

or something like that. I often say, maybe you should go back and rediscover your Christian roots. I say that to people a lot. I think people who come from Christianity should understand Christianity before they give it up. And I say that to a lot of people who come from Judaism. People were taught in a certain way that put them off. So they didn't really understand the real basis of their original religious practice. So I sometimes send people back and say, go understand what this is before you start rejecting it. And

[56:37]

that's very helpful. This is a personal note. I found that it's only through this practice that I could drop the baggage that I had with Christianity before I could go back and reexamine Christianity. That's right. That's one of the advantages of Buddhism. It gives you a perspective on other practices. It does help you to reconcile yourself with your background practice. That really came out in the 70s. And Ratzinger, the Catholic assistant to the Pope, wrote this diatribe about how Buddhism was siphoning off Catholic, young Catholics. And I wrote him back a letter

[57:38]

saying that indeed, you know, I always encourage people to go back and examine their roots and not leave their religion, be they Catholic, for Buddhism. And I make a point of doing that. But he never answered me. It's interesting that Christophe might say that given the missionary work that goes on in the world. Yes, it is, isn't it? Well, I'm just going to go to page 42 because this shouldn't take long. It says, So this is to practices, right? I'm talking about practices. So when a school

[58:56]

has a, when schools form, then they develop standards and customs and rules, methods of practice. And well, this is true, but this shouldn't divide us. We need to have some understanding, some way to practice within rules, but it shouldn't make us biased. So, my comment is, each has their own way. Don't compare is right or wrong. If it's genuine, it's incomparable. So, we should be very careful, I think, not to criticize other ways and think ours is the best way. Even though there's a tendency, as always, to think that.

[60:01]

So every school thinks, this is the best way. Every religion thinks, this is the only way. And it's true. Everyone is the only way. Everyone is the best way. No problem. Would you say that that attitude, that any way that kind of brings someone to something is the best way? That that attitude is the best attitude? Well, best, you know, and not in a comparative sense. The highest. When we say best, we think, well, best is compared with worst. I'm not comparing it with worst. Neither me too. I just meant the best. I don't mean to compare, but yes, it's the best. Because it's beyond compare. So, we have to be careful in the realm of comparison

[61:08]

that everybody can be the best. What about really bad people? Well... What about them? I mean, are they the best too? Well, you know, it only goes so far. You can only take something so far. No, what I'm saying is that when I say that, I'm talking about an attitude toward things, not a standard or a rule. So that everything has to fit into that rule. Or everything has to fit into what I'm saying.

[62:10]

Not everything fits into that. But by and large, it's like the attitude is... I'm not talking about evil things anyway. I'm talking about beneficial practices. I'm not talking about evil practices. So, your commentary says if it's genuine in comparison. Yeah, if it's genuine. Well, genuine means not harmful to people. Not evil. But genuine is also not quite definable. Genuine is also not quite definable. I'm just curious about what Dogen says, that there are as many minds

[63:11]

as there are persons, and they all negotiate the way solely in Zazen. And I'm pretty sure they all sit Zazen in Christian churches. Well, you know, there are various ways of looking about who sits Zazen. The whole universe is practicing Zazen. Constantly. Probably. Yeah. I just want to respond to that. There are a lot of Zen groups that meet in Christian churches. And Colin and I actually have done Zen service in a Christian church for them that they participated in. I think it's important not to make the assumption that, in fact, when we went to this Christian church, I sort of

[64:14]

had the assumption that we were going to teach them tolerance. They were so much more tolerant. It was unbelievable. Yeah. Well, that's right. So there are many Christian churches that open themselves to Buddhist groups. And that's quite right. And very tolerant, and try to understand. And that always, not surprises me, but always makes me wonder a little bit. I also know of Catholic monasteries where the monks practice Zazen. So Zazen is not necessarily the property of Zen Buddhists. It's not the property of Zen Buddhists. And there are Catholic monasteries where the monks do Zazen. So when someone does an evil act

[65:17]

very thoroughly, are they practicing Zazen in the sense of the whole universe is practicing Zazen? Zazen is the practice of the universe, but not everybody is practicing Zazen. Yes. Zazen is the basic activity of the universe, but not everybody is practicing Zazen. I'm not going to explain that. So when we practice Zazen, we participate in the fundamental activity of the universe.

[66:07]

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